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Norway839 Posts
[G] ZvP Dual Gold Base vs Forge FE (Baneling Bust Variation)Note: this is a very sketchy/cheesy build that I'm still experimenting with abit for fun, I don't have many replays yet but I'll upload more as soon as they appear. If you have any replays of this scenario, please post a link and ill put it in the guide ^^ will improve this topic as testing goes on. There are two ways to play: All-in and macro. Macro is very difficult in this scenario, but going on a ling bling allin is much more simple and fun for the whole family. You can also try this out with roaches, for example. More will come!![[image loading]](http://www.pricelessgoldandsilver.com/images/gold1.jpg) Somewhere along the road we Zergs forgot that this was what it was all about _______________________________________________________________________________
Replays
Build order
The build order begins with the traditional speedling expand. The reason why you want to use this opening compared to the more economical pool-hatch variations with delayed gas is because of an exaggerated need for map control and to hide your gold bases for as long as possible. The game itself will be played in two places: the center of the map, and in the Protoss natural. But more importantly, you want to hide that fact for as long as possible. 
14gas around 85 minerals.
Note:You can also do a delayed 17gas, but it will be more difficult to kill scouting probes or harass a vulnerable natural.
14pool with first 200 minerals.
Drone to 16 supply
16 overlord
Hold larva and prepare to take drones off of gas.
Pool complete. Research speedling tech and start your first queen.
Overlord pops. Make 4 lings as usual.
Drone
Fake an expansion to your natural. Move the drone down, and pretend like you are about to plant your natural.
Protoss should harass your drone and block your natural expansion at this point. Kill/chase the probe away with your lings, kill any pylon and keep feinting.
20/26 more drones
Probe gone or dead: Send drone to gold base.
Make more drones.
22/26 - Queen pops. Inject. Start second queen.
~23/26 Plant gold base
Send drone to 2nd gold base
Inject complete: Plant creep tumor, inject, move queen to 1st gold base.
~26/26 Plant 2nd gold base.
More drones and overlords
When 1st base at 75/100 - Transfer half of your drones to 1st gold from your main.
When drones arrive at 1st gold, transfer all of your drones to 2nd gold from your main.
Your main has now 0 drones.
New drones pop, Put 3 on gas.
Take 2nd gas in main.
Make drones in main.
Baneling nest with first 50 gas
Add on a few drones in the gold bases. NEVER have more than 16 drones on each gold line, it is oversaturation. Four far patches, two close. (3+3+3+3+2+2 = 16)
Take 3rd gas in 1st gold and 4th gas in 2nd gold.
Add additional queens
Inject, spread creep.
Start lair if you see only zealots or stalkers. You can also plant evo or start lair at a standard timing to be safe against DT rush.
Make a crazy amount of lings and remember overlords
Defending your gold
Chronoboosted 1gate pressure
Your expansions are very vulnerable to Chronoboosted zealots, double zealots, or the double zealot stalker pressure. It is very important that you scout the front of the Protoss expansion to react accordingly. You will then be able to intercept the zealots with your Speedlings thanks to the early gas. Your bases will rarely be under any threat before the 6 minute mark, but make sure you know what is coming.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FzlLC.jpg)
If you see chrono shortly after 5 minutes, produce 4-10 additional Zerglings to be safe against early pressure.
+1 Weapons 4-gate pressure
The plus one weapons 4-gate is a very popular push that hits your gold bases from the 8-minute mark and out. If you see a forge spinning from the 5:20-5:50 mark and out, it is likely to be 4-gate pressure. If you see chrono boosts going down on the forge and cybernetics, it increases the likelihood of a 4-gate. The initial four zealots hit your gold bases shortly after the 8-minute mark, so you should plant 1-2 spines in each gold base at 7:10. You will now be safe against any incoming early zealots. Morph 4-6 preemptive banelings to take care of bigger zealot packs. If he commits, use your banelings to soften up the zealots and finish off the rest of the pack. Morph new banelings afterwards.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wGdYw.jpg)
When this bad boy starts spinning, chill 90 seconds and plant some spines.
After the defense
Make lings and morph banelings. Constantly inject and remember to have sufficient overlords.
Bust the protoss time and time over again until he breaks.
What does this build leave me with?
- Complete map control early on
- Almost twice the income of Protoss without having to make more drones.
- Increased creep spread from the center of the map instead of from your starting base.
- High-economy low tech play that is safe against every FFE Stargate opener.
- 4 early Zerglings with a really fast speed to harass the Protoss FFE.
- Many queens.
- Constant triple injects.
- Ability to match the Protoss tech while having a superior economy.
![[image loading]](http://www.labocaprods.com/mambomanga/beginners_files/image006.jpg) The Protoss' expression as he once again realizes that the game is completely broken.
What does this not work against?
- 1base. This build is a response to Forge FE.
- You can also play single gold against 1base, but it can be more difficult.
- I don't know, please write when you lose a game with this.
Why banelings?
Banelings allow you to spend money faster. You don't have to wait for larva to convert resources into army. But that's not the main thing. Baneling busts completely devastate the entire economy in Protoss' natural, forces sentries in the main, and forces him to be defensive. The Protoss player will not be able to continue along his desired tech path, such as colossus, stargate or archon play, as efficiently. More importantly, he can not attack you at all.
But what if he goes for an early push? Roaches are much better at defending, right? Naah. If you take a look at the centre of Metalopolis or Antiga Shipyard, you'll notice it's so wide open that there is no way you can be forcefielded out. Just swarm everything with a ling/bling composition and you'll never be in trouble.
Sure, roaches are good, but with the insane economy you'll be able to utilize so powerful baneling busts over and over again that there is no way Protoss will be able to hold. But who am I kidding, roaches probably work anyway. You can try that out, it's probably very good too.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZtzIp.jpg) Who would have thought this was a speedling baneling all-in
Baneling harass
From the time your baneling nest is complete, shortly after the gold expansions are up and running, it is time for some baneling harass!
The natural expansion of Metalopolis is so wide open that you easily can rally small packs of banelings from the surrounding areas and force the protoss to waste his forcefields. Followed up with a baneling bust, there is nothing the Protoss can do. The same thing goes for a Nexus wall on Antiga shipyard. If Protoss decides to wall off at the front, it's even easier to break through with the big bust.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Jvul8.jpg) Three young banelings destined for greatness.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0rCK8.jpg)
Unsuspecting protoss base
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GTBrs.jpg)
Probable result.
When should I try this?
This build is exclusively against Forge FE for Metalopolis, Antiga Shipyard or other maps with a similar layout.
Enjoy!
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I dreamt of it... and never dared trying.
Thanks for the idea!
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United States8476 Posts
You really should try this out a bit more before writing a guide on it. If anything, this should be more of a discussion.
You don't really have anything about how to defend against the various things protoss can throw at you.
Banelings alone without a roach warren isn't really viable to defend against everything protoss can do. For example, it is near impossible to defend a 6 gate allin with ling/bling when you take normal bases, nevermind 2 golds. Also, you will have an insanely hard time holding off +1 4 gate off FFE.
The baneling harass section doesn't really fit into this guide.
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Norway839 Posts
It is a key tactic in this strategy :\
The baneling nest completes roughly around the same time as a potential 4gate +1 push. At this time you are already running off of triple injects, you can even afford several preemptive spine crawlers.
I've played tons of games against Protoss and ling bling queen is just as viable in open space, especially on creep, as roaches are. But yeah, I'll work on adding more replays, apologize if this guide didn't live up to TL standards T_T
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what leagues does this work?
i dont think that this is viable. as NrGmonk already said.
i guess the times it works is because the protoss doesnt exactly know how to react and screws up
but ok, i will wait and see when someone tries this against me ^^
oh wait... i vetoed metalopolis because its so zerg favored :< i wonder why...
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Norway839 Posts
The +1 weapons 4-gate (~8:00) is a joke against this build, the income from the gold bases completely demolishes it. The production from the triple hatcheries is too strong, and the more time the protoss player allows you to live, the more his army will weaken because of his linear production.
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On January 09 2012 18:33 Feos wrote:
what leagues does this work?
i dont think that this is viable. as NrGmonk already said.
i guess the times it works is because the protoss doesnt exactly know how to react and screws up
but ok, i will wait and see when someone tries this against me ^^
oh wait... i vetoed metalopolis because its so zerg favored :< i wonder why...
Seeing as Snute has top 50 MMR on the EU server I'm pretty sure he is talking about it working on a grandmaster level.
Edit: I like this strategy, because as I see it the timing where Z production kicks in is before any serious pressure can be put your way and you will - if Protoss commits to agression - stand a better chance at defending than if you take a quick 3rd on regular blue minerals.
Isn't a VERY common response to FFE a quick 3rd? The only difference here is that you have to be agressive while taking 3 bases.
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If you take both golds on antiga/metal one of the golds would literally be 2 feet away from a low ground warp-in from the protoss' main. The baneling part might be pretty good on metal but on antiga you can walloff the ramp pretty well. I've held baneling busts on that map w/o sentries by just warping in more buildings behind the ones that get busted over and over.
edit: I sure would like to see some replays though I bet they are hilarious.
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i love u guys who actually have no clue what ur talking about saying this wouldnt work.
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On January 09 2012 18:41 Skyro wrote:
If you take both golds on antiga/metal one of the golds would literally be 2 feet away from a low ground warp-in from the protoss' main. The baneling part might be pretty good on metal but on antiga you can walloff the ramp pretty well. I've held baneling busts on that map w/o sentries by just warping in more buildings behind the ones that get busted over and over.
In this case that is totally fine. As long as you get to mine from the two gold bases you will be able to take a normal 4th/5th base once protoss has spent all his resources on defending his natural.
to OP: I would like to see some more relpays of this aswell.
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meh, golds are not THAT much better then normal bases, especially as takes a damn long time to walk the queen there and maynard drones if neccesary. Quick third base relies on getting ling speed very late but you really can't defend the gold close to the P without the ling speed. On metalopolis you're just too damn close to the P with this, if he scouted the first gold he is already likely to go with 5 gate +1 attack (because you can't stop him from warping in from a pylon on the edge of his main) and with the gold on HIS side that is simply not stoppable.
Banes absolutely suck hard vs zealots early on and +1 zealots murder the lings, any 3 base play needs roach (or on some maps spines) to stop aggression.
Two normal bases and gold third IS a decent strategy on meta and maybe antiga but you need to play it completely different. Use roaches or even hydra's and put on some heavy pressure the moment you got about 10 drones on the gold.
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Since when were banelings bad vs zealots?
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in this replay the protoss played pretty bad.
he scouted that you had not taken your natural. he suspects youve taken the gold and confirms it later (far later) with a probe only on the far side gold. (so he didnt see the gold the whole game until it was over anyway).
he simply assumed you would take your natural and stood there with a skeleton of a wall. he never even tried to confirm your base at the natural. because of this "wall" he even lost probes to normal ling harass.
his warpgate tech was late and when it finished he had like 3 gates or so.
for some reason he directly went for colossi... he never scoutet your tech. he was totally blind, not knowing your base count or tech.
this guy was grandmaster? really? :<
if the first zealot would confirm this at the xelnaga tower and he would cut probes and thow like 5 or 6 gates down and overrun the gold bases i think there is nothing the zerg can do
as said before... gold bases arent THAT good
ofc it would work for some time like anything new.
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On January 09 2012 19:03 Feos wrote:
this guy was grandmaster? really? :<
He states the replay was from an early experiment and the guy is 23 Masters league if you actually looked at the site the replay was from, you would know that.
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nope, there is nothing... maybe because of scriptblock
and how exactly does it matter if it was an early experiment? obviously it worked. its just that his opponent sucked. and against a bad opponent you can do what you want... i remember TLOs placememt matches :<
as i said before... it might even work but once a protoss knows about such a strategy, i believe its quite easily crushed because the zerg is too spread out too early
but i will wait and watch the next replays...
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On January 09 2012 19:14 Feos wrote:
nope, there is nothing... maybe because of scriptblock
and how exactly does it matter if it was an early experiment? obviously it worked. its just that his opponent sucked. and against a bad opponent you can do what you want... i remember TLOs placememt matches :<
as i said before... it might even work but once a protoss knows about such a strategy, i believe its quite easily crushed because the zerg is too spread out too early
but i will wait and watch the next replays...
agreed about the replays-part. let's wait for some more replays from ladder before we make up our mind.
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On January 09 2012 18:41 Skyro wrote:
If you take both golds on antiga/metal one of the golds would literally be 2 feet away from a low ground warp-in from the protoss' main.
On antiga, a guy who did that build to me put some spines and brought an overlord. Needless to say, warping on the low ground was impossible, I couldn't even put a pylon on the borders of my own main.
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That's why i veto Metal and Antiga. Blizzard.
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On January 09 2012 18:18 NrGmonk wrote:
You really should try this out a bit more before writing a guide on it. If anything, this should be more of a discussion.
You don't really have anything about how to defend against the various things protoss can throw at you.
Banelings alone without a roach warren isn't really viable to defend against everything protoss can do. For example, it is near impossible to defend a 6 gate allin with ling/bling when you take normal bases, nevermind 2 golds. Also, you will have an insanely hard time holding off +1 4 gate off FFE.
The baneling harass section doesn't really fit into this guide.
Are you kidding me? Blings defend +1 4gate way better then roaches do. Theres noway a Toss can engage up a 3 sided ramp thats extreamly wide and kill it with Spines/Blings at it.
This build is already being used on meta and is by far one of the hardest builds to face as a toss. 6gate allin does not work against this if ur up against a Decent player.
Stop posting useless shit in a thread with no knowledge of the game. and try to contribute to the forum instead of being a douchebag.
The perfect response to this as a toss, is not to overcommit and play the game standard with abit more warp prism play, as his army is going to be out of place. 99% of the time youl win because the toss overcommits.
User was banned for this post.
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Holy crap, this build is so much fun!
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Guys, for those of you doubting this guide - it's easy to pull of in all leagues with good control. You can stop whatever the protoss throws at you with relative ease - mind you, this guide is posted by one of the top european zergs and Norways best player, playing at the highest level possible. It works, though it might not suit the metagame at this point or even the gamestyle of your chosing - even so, it's pretty obvious that you should just try it yourself before opening your mouth 
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United States8476 Posts
On January 09 2012 19:42 GLLvz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 18:18 NrGmonk wrote:
You really should try this out a bit more before writing a guide on it. If anything, this should be more of a discussion.
You don't really have anything about how to defend against the various things protoss can throw at you.
Banelings alone without a roach warren isn't really viable to defend against everything protoss can do. For example, it is near impossible to defend a 6 gate allin with ling/bling when you take normal bases, nevermind 2 golds. Also, you will have an insanely hard time holding off +1 4 gate off FFE.
The baneling harass section doesn't really fit into this guide. Are you kidding me? Blings defend +1 4gate way better then roaches do. Theres noway a Toss can engage up a 3 sided ramp thats extreamly wide and kill it with Spines/Blings at it. This build is already being used on meta and is by far one of the hardest builds to face as a toss. 6gate allin does not work against this if ur up against a Decent player. Stop posting useless shit in a thread with no knowledge of the game. and try to contribute to the forum instead of being a douchebag. The perfect response to this as a toss, is not to overcommit and play the game standard with abit more warp prism play, as his army is going to be out of place. 99% of the time youl win because the toss overcommits.
Love all the Norwegians defending this. It's cute but some of you are being very rude.
Tbh I don't think this is completely unviable. Most of my criticism comes from the quality of the guide rather than the actual strategy. It doesn't really do a good job of explaining how to defend certain things or provide quality replays of such defense. It's also the burden of the guide writer to prove that his idea works.
Blings definitely don't defend vs +1 4 gate better than roaches do, especially when the zealots warp almost directly into your base and you need to spine 2 places instead of the usual 1 with a normal 3 base build. You also have to premorph banes and it can be very hard to get the right amount of banelings. Also, a 3 sided ramp has nothing to do with +1 4 gate zealot attacks, so I don't know what you're talking about there.
With 6 gate, I've played about 20 games versus 3 of my GM practice partners who were trying a new 3 base baneling style. None of them have ever held without a roach warren. I actually do believe with a tight build that it may be possible to hold off a 6 gate with banelings, but again I'm not convinced without sufficient proof. Even without any gold bases, Even Morrow, the only professional zerg who ever opens banelings in ZvP gets a roach warren in his build, but doesn't necessarily get roaches.
Also, for the record I've contributed to the forum more than you ever will.
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On January 09 2012 20:04 NrGmonk wrote:
Blings definitely don't defend vs +1 4 gate better than roaches do, especially when the zealots warp almost directly into your base and you need to spine 2 places instead of the usual 1 with a normal 3 base build. You also have to premorph banes and it can be very hard to get the right amount of banelings. Also, a 3 sided ramp has nothing to do with +1 4 gate zealot attacks, so I don't know what you're talking about there.
With 6 gate, I've played about 20 games versus 3 of my GM practice partners who were trying a new 3 base baneling style. None of them have ever held without a roach warren. I actually do believe with a tight build that it may be possible to hold off a 6 gate with banelings, but again I'm not convinced without sufficient proof. Even without any gold bases, Even Morrow, the only professional zerg who ever opens banelings in ZvP gets a roach warren in his build, but doesn't necessarily get roaches.
Also, for the record I've contributed to the forum more than you ever will.
All of this is completly irrelevant, because we are not talking about normal scenario. It's zerg on 2 gold bases...
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United States8476 Posts
On January 09 2012 20:12 -Asmodeus- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 20:04 NrGmonk wrote:
Blings definitely don't defend vs +1 4 gate better than roaches do, especially when the zealots warp almost directly into your base and you need to spine 2 places instead of the usual 1 with a normal 3 base build. You also have to premorph banes and it can be very hard to get the right amount of banelings. Also, a 3 sided ramp has nothing to do with +1 4 gate zealot attacks, so I don't know what you're talking about there.
With 6 gate, I've played about 20 games versus 3 of my GM practice partners who were trying a new 3 base baneling style. None of them have ever held without a roach warren. I actually do believe with a tight build that it may be possible to hold off a 6 gate with banelings, but again I'm not convinced without sufficient proof. Even without any gold bases, Even Morrow, the only professional zerg who ever opens banelings in ZvP gets a roach warren in his build, but doesn't necessarily get roaches.
Also, for the record I've contributed to the forum more than you ever will. All of this is completly irrelevant, because we are not talking about normal scenario. It's zerg on 2 gold bases...
How is it irrelevant? If anything the close positions of the zerg base to the protoss base exasperates all of this.
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On January 09 2012 20:16 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 20:12 -Asmodeus- wrote:On January 09 2012 20:04 NrGmonk wrote:
Blings definitely don't defend vs +1 4 gate better than roaches do, especially when the zealots warp almost directly into your base and you need to spine 2 places instead of the usual 1 with a normal 3 base build. You also have to premorph banes and it can be very hard to get the right amount of banelings. Also, a 3 sided ramp has nothing to do with +1 4 gate zealot attacks, so I don't know what you're talking about there.
With 6 gate, I've played about 20 games versus 3 of my GM practice partners who were trying a new 3 base baneling style. None of them have ever held without a roach warren. I actually do believe with a tight build that it may be possible to hold off a 6 gate with banelings, but again I'm not convinced without sufficient proof. Even without any gold bases, Even Morrow, the only professional zerg who ever opens banelings in ZvP gets a roach warren in his build, but doesn't necessarily get roaches.
Also, for the record I've contributed to the forum more than you ever will. All of this is completly irrelevant, because we are not talking about normal scenario. It's zerg on 2 gold bases... How is it irrelevant? If anything the close positions of the zerg base to the protoss base exasperates all of this.
Close positions doesn't matter that much with warp-in anyway and with gold zerg can afford additional spines. Fast gold(s) isn't comparable to standard 3 hatch.
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Why take the second gold base? Would it not be a lot safer and better to just take the natural instead? So that you can get a solid defense up afterworlds.
It seemed to me that taking two gold bases were a bit overkill that could easily shoot you in the foot later in the game if the Protoss stabilizes.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 09 2012 20:23 -Asmodeus- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 20:16 NrGmonk wrote:On January 09 2012 20:12 -Asmodeus- wrote:On January 09 2012 20:04 NrGmonk wrote:
Blings definitely don't defend vs +1 4 gate better than roaches do, especially when the zealots warp almost directly into your base and you need to spine 2 places instead of the usual 1 with a normal 3 base build. You also have to premorph banes and it can be very hard to get the right amount of banelings. Also, a 3 sided ramp has nothing to do with +1 4 gate zealot attacks, so I don't know what you're talking about there.
With 6 gate, I've played about 20 games versus 3 of my GM practice partners who were trying a new 3 base baneling style. None of them have ever held without a roach warren. I actually do believe with a tight build that it may be possible to hold off a 6 gate with banelings, but again I'm not convinced without sufficient proof. Even without any gold bases, Even Morrow, the only professional zerg who ever opens banelings in ZvP gets a roach warren in his build, but doesn't necessarily get roaches.
Also, for the record I've contributed to the forum more than you ever will. All of this is completly irrelevant, because we are not talking about normal scenario. It's zerg on 2 gold bases... How is it irrelevant? If anything the close positions of the zerg base to the protoss base exasperates all of this. Close positions doesn't matter that much with warp-in anyway and with gold zerg can afford additional spines. Fast gold(s) isn't comparable to standard 3 hatch.
Close positions definitely matters. If it didn't, then why don't all zergs double gold expand on Metal? With close positions, you don't have to clear out a path to put your proxy pylon. With the +1 4 gate, sometimes zergs can totally deny the proxy pylon. With the 6 gate, protoss will be delayed for 1 warpin because they have to proxy a pylon with a probe they escort with the main army.
Since these 2 attacks hit at around 8/9minutes respectively, I doubt the zerg double gold economy will have kicked much if at all, so that hardly matters. I don't see how you can argue that these 2 attacks are more easily held with double gold when it is pretty clear that they are harder to defend.
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I think that first of all, people need to realize who snute is before throwing needless criticism into the thread. Snute is a top EU player and if he says the tactic is valid, I'd say you have to have a very good idea of what you're talking about before saying it isn't good. (This is not aimed at NrGmonk at all, just speaking generally since many people have a tendency to be very critical without knowing what they are doing)
What someone can indeed be critical of, like NrGmonk said, is the guide itself. Personally I would have liked to see a lot more replays. I also dislike the focus on that one build. It's great to have a specified detailed build, but I would like to know if it works with other openings and how one has to adapt. Personally, I like to go 14 pool 16 expand vs toss since it's so strong against FFE which is so common, and it would be good with some general information so I can start with my standard opening and switch into this more extreme tactic if I see the possibility. Just like NrGmonk said, some more information on how the protoss can react and how one has to deal with it would be awesome to make it more general.
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Norway839 Posts
It's not necessarily something that works on the highest level of play no, but it should be experimented with. That's why I wanted to bring it up here even if it was a bit fresh, to develop the game. Could've been a [D] perhaps, but idk. It doesn't have to be legit. At best this might be nothing but a fun build. But I don't know, since I'm not playing this game at the highest level.
I tested some macro games (not baneling all-in) just now with BabyKnight and he won all of them. You are a lot closer to your opponent, so it is absolutely crucial that you figure out what midgame transition he is going for if you are going to play a macro game. If it is colossus, you need to have spire. If you face DTs, you must have overseers or spores. The followup can be blink stalkers, for which you need hydra/infestor, or archons, for which you need roaches, and so on.
You're basically putting a contain and pressuring him at the same time, essentially forcing a 2-base all-in. There are some really fine lines with this build if you play it in a macro variation because of the shortened distances, and the early midgame feels like it is twice as technical compared to a standard game, because things happen everywhere, you need to spread creep in multiple directions, inject 3 bases, have perfect drone saturation, and there are multiple forces at different locactions, much more than the classical ball vs ball game that we see today.
What I want to point out here is that I lost all of my practice games because I didn't transition reactively and made bad decisions, not because I took a double gold base. It's difficult to play this in macro, and probably easy for toss if he is facing a bad gold base player. But in theory I think this could work just fine in a macro game. It's a different way of playing out the maps, that's all.
Playing this build defensively and macroing up with double gold vs forge ffe against a GM player like BabyKnight for example is a whole different thing which takes a tremendous of skill to execute. I tried, but I didn't play well enough. He obviously meant it was a bad build and too greedy, and that is an understandable POV. It's very difficult to pull off for Zerg. If you miss out on the creepspread, a few injects, if you lose a few overlords, mess up your scouting and preemptive timings, make a few too many or too few units of a certain type you're going to lose much more easily than in a normal game.
If you play this build in a macro fashion, you'll have your mistakes pointed out sooner than in any other game. It's much more tense, much more fast-paced and very fun.
But at the very least, defending the +1 weapons 4-gate is really simple. I used 1 spine in each gold. There is creep everywhere so you can relocate banelings and lings easily. If he moves out with 4 zealots, you can use lings and queens to snipe them, or allow him closer and use the spine. If he clumps more than 4, your banelings will demolish them, or at least split them up so they they are easier to kill. I used 4-5 preemptive banelings in each base. The distance to the main is very long for the P player, so it is difficult to sneak anything up there unless it's a direct warpin like on Metalopolis air positions or if the P spawns counter-clockwise of you on Antiga.
The things that this build doesn't work against is what kills you in every other game. But it's just exaggerated, it's like hard mode for you and easy mode for the Protoss. You'll feel the stress on your mechanics. It's all about getting good reads on the Protoss player's followups and counter them while playing perfectly if you don't go all-in with ling bling pressure.
I will add things to the guide, thanks for the feedback ^_^ its my second so I'm not so good at it yet I guess lol.
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Yeah now i see one more reason why are the gold bases removed on GSLs maps so not very viable on pro level, otherwise nice idea for ladder.. but like i said not too much viable on the highest levels..
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On January 09 2012 20:34 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 20:23 -Asmodeus- wrote:On January 09 2012 20:16 NrGmonk wrote:On January 09 2012 20:12 -Asmodeus- wrote:On January 09 2012 20:04 NrGmonk wrote:
Blings definitely don't defend vs +1 4 gate better than roaches do, especially when the zealots warp almost directly into your base and you need to spine 2 places instead of the usual 1 with a normal 3 base build. You also have to premorph banes and it can be very hard to get the right amount of banelings. Also, a 3 sided ramp has nothing to do with +1 4 gate zealot attacks, so I don't know what you're talking about there.
With 6 gate, I've played about 20 games versus 3 of my GM practice partners who were trying a new 3 base baneling style. None of them have ever held without a roach warren. I actually do believe with a tight build that it may be possible to hold off a 6 gate with banelings, but again I'm not convinced without sufficient proof. Even without any gold bases, Even Morrow, the only professional zerg who ever opens banelings in ZvP gets a roach warren in his build, but doesn't necessarily get roaches.
Also, for the record I've contributed to the forum more than you ever will. All of this is completly irrelevant, because we are not talking about normal scenario. It's zerg on 2 gold bases... How is it irrelevant? If anything the close positions of the zerg base to the protoss base exasperates all of this. Close positions doesn't matter that much with warp-in anyway and with gold zerg can afford additional spines. Fast gold(s) isn't comparable to standard 3 hatch. Close positions definitely matters. If it didn't, then why don't all zergs double gold expand on Metal? With close positions, you don't have to clear out a path to put your proxy pylon. With the +1 4 gate, sometimes zergs can totally deny the proxy pylon. With the 6 gate, protoss will be delayed for 1 warpin because they have to proxy a pylon with a probe they escort with the main army. Since these 2 attacks hit at around 8/9minutes respectively, I doubt the zerg double gold economy will have kicked much if at all, so that hardly matters. I don't see how you can argue that these 2 attacks are more easily held with double gold when it is pretty clear that they are harder to defend.
Do you play this game? Seriously, if timing hits standard 3 hatch zerg at 9 min then it's gonna hit at 8:40 at the gold, due to shorter distance, but it will also have less units at 8:40 than at 9 min. Please, play the scenario, then talk about it.
User was banned for this post.
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Love it! Gonna try it tonight! :D
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United States8476 Posts
On January 09 2012 20:51 -Asmodeus- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 20:34 NrGmonk wrote:On January 09 2012 20:23 -Asmodeus- wrote:On January 09 2012 20:16 NrGmonk wrote:On January 09 2012 20:12 -Asmodeus- wrote:On January 09 2012 20:04 NrGmonk wrote:
Blings definitely don't defend vs +1 4 gate better than roaches do, especially when the zealots warp almost directly into your base and you need to spine 2 places instead of the usual 1 with a normal 3 base build. You also have to premorph banes and it can be very hard to get the right amount of banelings. Also, a 3 sided ramp has nothing to do with +1 4 gate zealot attacks, so I don't know what you're talking about there.
With 6 gate, I've played about 20 games versus 3 of my GM practice partners who were trying a new 3 base baneling style. None of them have ever held without a roach warren. I actually do believe with a tight build that it may be possible to hold off a 6 gate with banelings, but again I'm not convinced without sufficient proof. Even without any gold bases, Even Morrow, the only professional zerg who ever opens banelings in ZvP gets a roach warren in his build, but doesn't necessarily get roaches.
Also, for the record I've contributed to the forum more than you ever will. All of this is completly irrelevant, because we are not talking about normal scenario. It's zerg on 2 gold bases... How is it irrelevant? If anything the close positions of the zerg base to the protoss base exasperates all of this. Close positions doesn't matter that much with warp-in anyway and with gold zerg can afford additional spines. Fast gold(s) isn't comparable to standard 3 hatch. Close positions definitely matters. If it didn't, then why don't all zergs double gold expand on Metal? With close positions, you don't have to clear out a path to put your proxy pylon. With the +1 4 gate, sometimes zergs can totally deny the proxy pylon. With the 6 gate, protoss will be delayed for 1 warpin because they have to proxy a pylon with a probe they escort with the main army. Since these 2 attacks hit at around 8/9minutes respectively, I doubt the zerg double gold economy will have kicked much if at all, so that hardly matters. I don't see how you can argue that these 2 attacks are more easily held with double gold when it is pretty clear that they are harder to defend. Do you play this game? Seriously, if timing hits standard 3 hatch zerg at 9 min then it's gonna hit at 8:40 at the gold, due to shorter distance, but it will also have less units at 8:40 than at 9 min. Please, play the scenario, then talk about it.
Yes, that makes it harder for the zerg to respond to, the fact that the push hits earlier on a gold. It's something that even the OP alluded to in the post above mine. Even if you don't agree that it's harder, I don't see how you can say that it's easier for double gold to defend these attacks or how my points are irrelevant because of the double gold.
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I wonder if I get banned if I say poop.
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With that beeing said, I completely agree with the guys saying that the build should be tryed out a bit more. I think many people arguing in here are biased, which are somewhat understandable. Let's try to be abit more professional about it, and test it out like any good science: through empirical data analysis :-)
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Monk you should really watch this in action before judging and read Snute's responses. He's able to beat players like Mana and other top Europeans with it on a daily basis even if scouted. Can't be that bad then can it?
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Norway839 Posts
On January 09 2012 22:05 CallmeMuppet wrote:
Monk you should really watch this in action before judging and read Snute's responses. He's able to beat players like Mana and other top Europeans with it on a daily basis even if scouted. Can't be that bad then can it?
Where did you get that from? -_- I did this build only once on ladder, it's super sketchy but might have some potential. Never did I ever beat Mana or other top Europeans on a daily basis with this...
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hey guys im a protoss player and this dosent work, its just a fun strat so dont even try it please.
infact go back to hatch first and only making roach hydra and corrupter vs protoss, thats the best strategy imo : )
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On January 09 2012 20:04 NrGmonk wrote:
Even Morrow, the only professional zerg who ever opens banelings in ZvP
this made me giggle
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On January 09 2012 22:11 Snute wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 22:05 CallmeMuppet wrote:
Monk you should really watch this in action before judging and read Snute's responses. He's able to beat players like Mana and other top Europeans with it on a daily basis even if scouted. Can't be that bad then can it? Where did you get that from? -_- I did this build only once on ladder, it's super sketchy but might have some potential. Never did I ever beat Mana or other top Europeans on a daily basis with this...
Should have written it better, I was reffering to beating 6,7,8 gate with ling bling.
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this a standard response to forge fe in with any map that holds a gold of mine, i do a normal baneling/roach bust. will not work vs very safe builds like the 3gate exspand. i would also almost consider this a cheese due to fact of needing double stactic defences or over making of units to defend pressure/attacks as gold bases are almost all some distance away from the main.
nice write up and good to see i'm not the only zerg who does this.
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snute and knutzi? in 2 consecutive posts? im in heaven
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something people need to keep in mind is that the OP specifically said that this is a fun build and most likely all-in as he even admitted that it would be hard to get a macro game out of. when criticizing keep that in mind. of course replays will always be nice...
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On January 09 2012 22:26 HydraFucaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 20:04 NrGmonk wrote:
Even Morrow, the only professional zerg who ever opens banelings in ZvP this made me giggle
Why? He is the only one if I recall correctly.
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Nice build for fun, but is pointless for serious play due to the extintion of gold bases for just that...being imbalanced.
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Suggestion: get an early evo, and if you see forge spinning, get +1 carapace.
Since you say you will have a lot of money anyway, and this would help against +1 zealots.
(disclaimer: I am a bad player)
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Haha, Snute is using this build right now in the IEM qualifier!
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 11 2012 06:05 ster wrote:
Haha, Snute is using this build right now in the IEM qualifier!
And destroying Real with it. Sick.
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Doing this in the IEM qualifer is kinda proof of concept aint it? nobody expects it.. but I guess its one of those builds that will work a for a little while and go away.
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no guys seriously, this dosent work.. please dont try it !
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Snute is actually exceptionally good lol. Probably one of the best players on GL, I'm definatley gonna check out the reps even though I play toss.
Nice guide, assuming it works!
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On January 09 2012 22:26 HydraFucaZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 20:04 NrGmonk wrote:
Even Morrow, the only professional zerg who ever opens banelings in ZvP this made me giggle
you make me giggle.
imba tactic, many viable))
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Let's see some proof-of-concept replays against the +1 6gate, please?
Or 2 stargate void? The voids will pop and be shooting at something within less than 10 game seconds if the gates are near the edge of P's base.
Data, dammit! We need more data!
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Knutzi Norway. January 11 2012 06:17. Posts 618 PM Profile Report Quote #
no guys seriously, this dosent work.. please dont try it !
This made me giggle!
Maybe the best response for how good this is in this thread yet!
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On January 11 2012 06:17 Knutzi wrote:
no guys seriously, this dosent work.. please dont try it !
Yes totally agree, it is a waste of your time as zergs to do this build.
I have a 100% win* rate against this build, as high masters protoss.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Gonna give it a try next time I play on Metal =)
Good stuff Snute.
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Snute just beat Dream on antiga using the high economy baneling bust version of this build.
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If this build is actually good I'm flabbergasted. Seems super cool though, it's kind of like the cc float to the gold for terrans.
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just a mad thumbs up for this thread. i have tons of these ideas but i never make them into teamliquid threads. moar pls!
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very interesting, i'd love to play against this build it seems so much like an easy win for a protoss to go double starport and overwhelm the zerg because their bases are so spread. that being said i think most protoss are smart enough to veto metalopolis. besides those two points i like this build it would be an interesting game to play.
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On January 11 2012 06:59 Theovide wrote:
If this build is actually good I'm flabbergasted. Seems super cool though, it's kind of like the cc float to the gold for terrans.
Except it doesn't lose if scouted
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On January 11 2012 06:16 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 06:05 ster wrote:
Haha, Snute is using this build right now in the IEM qualifier! And destroying Real with it. Sick.
Was just waiting for something like this before I made a comment.. And to a previous poster Im not gonna name; yeah it is kinda cute that half of the guys commenting here are Norwegians. Maybe the reason they seemed rude to you might have something to do about the way you articulated yourself. The OP did a better work with this guide then 95% of other guides in this forum, so why complain. I agree that it lacked replays, and its not the BEST guide out there content wise, but still. I kinda like guides that explaines a strategy that the OP has come up with himself, not just guides that explains a buildorder from the GSL. Not everything has to be viable at your level of play to be posted here I hope.
GJ Snute! Hope you'll add some more replays. Interesting strat
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On January 11 2012 09:13 Marooned wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 06:16 Zealously wrote:On January 11 2012 06:05 ster wrote:
Haha, Snute is using this build right now in the IEM qualifier! And destroying Real with it. Sick. Was just waiting for something like this before I made a comment.. And to a previous poster Im not gonna name; yeah it is kinda cute that half of the guys commenting here are Norwegians. Maybe the reason they seemed rude to you might have something to do about the way you articulated yourself. The OP did a better work with this guide then 95% of other guides in this forum, so why complain. I agree that it lacked replays, and its not the BEST guide out there content wise, but still. I kinda like guides that explaines a strategy that the OP has come up with himself, not just guides that explains a buildorder from the GSL. Not everything has to be viable at your level of play to be posted here I hope. GJ Snute! Hope you'll add some more replays. Interesting strat
Do you actually have any idea who Monk is? Take a look at his post history and realize that he consistently writes some of the best guides on TL. His guides should be a benchmark as to how a guide should truly be written.
To comment on the build in question : How does this deal against FFE into Stargate play? It seems as though it would be impossible to get creep between your bases in time to defend them all with queens. Something like a +1 Zealot/Voidray pressure would also do quite well against this, I feel. Are there any replays of Toss doing this in response to the build?
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Hm... I agree, his guides are great, but thats not the point. I didnt say anything bad about his guides or him in general, and if you feel I did then I apologize. My point is that Im sure if Snute had time he would have made this guide better, and I hope he adds more replays to this eventually. I dont know about you, but I enjoy it when high level players like this takes the time to write a guide themselves in general. And to my understanding it is within the standards of this forum. But whatever, Im not gonna derail it anymore then I allready did
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Norway839 Posts
Hmm actually you should just skip the second gold base. Having one to bust with is enough. Zerg OP xD
I'm sorry but I don't think I will write any more guides because the standard is too high, it simply takes too many hours for me if I'm going to make every single one into a mini thesis.
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On January 11 2012 17:42 Snute wrote:
Hmm actually you should just skip the second gold base. Having one to bust with is enough. Zerg OP xD
I'm sorry but I don't think I will write any more guides because the standard is too high, it simply takes too many hours for me if I'm going to make every single one into a mini thesis.
Maybe post it as a discussion thread instead so there won't be so much whining or mod action. Definitely a cool idea, I have tried this a few times with a high queen count. Not so confident in taking the other gold base, but I haven't tested that myself either.
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one of the reasons sase sickness and me don't agree with forge expanding
also check ReaL vs Snute from the iem qualifier to see some 1 sided slaughter
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United States8476 Posts
On January 11 2012 09:13 Marooned wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 06:16 Zealously wrote:On January 11 2012 06:05 ster wrote:
Haha, Snute is using this build right now in the IEM qualifier! And destroying Real with it. Sick. Was just waiting for something like this before I made a comment.. And to a previous poster Im not gonna name; yeah it is kinda cute that half of the guys commenting here are Norwegians. Maybe the reason they seemed rude to you might have something to do about the way you articulated yourself. The OP did a better work with this guide then 95% of other guides in this forum, so why complain. I agree that it lacked replays, and its not the BEST guide out there content wise, but still. I kinda like guides that explaines a strategy that the OP has come up with himself, not just guides that explains a buildorder from the GSL. Not everything has to be viable at your level of play to be posted here I hope. GJ Snute! Hope you'll add some more replays. Interesting strat
True, I could have used a better tone but tbh this is just how I post on these forums. My style is concise and succinct, but many people interpret it as rude. If you read my posts with that tone in mind, you'll see I was just giving suggestions to the guide and not really maliciously criticizing it. And the reason I actually tried to give suggestions was that the guide seemed like it could be promising but fell into common pitfalls of guidewriting on TL. Plus Snute himself has been pretty cool about it. Also, don't see why you can't say my name; seems weird.
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What I'll say to you Snute is that yeah, I think this is a cool guide but maybe it should be labelled as a discussion. I have a lot of respect for Monk because his guides are really, really good but they always have to be up to his standard. This thread has generated some great discussion, so please don't stop writing
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This build sounds really weak to stargates as you have no anti air.
Also the sentry warp prism thing can wreck because your army is so split. For the protoss to be able to kill the main and all the tech, they will be pretty far ahead.
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just saw this tactic executed by Targa against Hasuobs in IEM Kiev 2012 (on Antiga Shipyard)
let me say, baneling bust like a boss and a clear win.
ps. Snute, you should really keep writing this strategies when you have time.
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I've seen lastshadow do this (with roach/hydra or muta/ling instead of ling/bane) on antiga shipyard. Seems to work pretty well high up on the korean ladder o.O You really can defend just about anything with proper timings etc...
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golds without rocks deny forge expands, protoss should know this by now, if they don't they deserve the loss. Terrans can also float there on antiga and meta in some situations against the toss. Love to abuse the current 2 base zerg in tvz against hellions by taking their gold for the time being and then splitting the map on meta. Or use the super short fly distance from the edge of the main towards the gold on antiga. 3 cc opening for the win.
Anyway what i found out as toss works pretty nice is to fake an forge expand into tricking them to get the gold and do a +1 3 gate timing. If they don't go for the gold blindly and lose the game, you can still expand. Its not as greedy as before but the zerg can't drone like cazy or stay +0 lings only and get the 3rd fast. But you are a bit weaker against aggression, but its easier to scout it coming and its holdable.
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Personally, I find that this build doesn't work as well on Antiga since I don't want to do a 14/14 speedling FE vs an FFE (economywise). However, I have tried this quite often (with a lot of success) on metalopolis before this guide was put out. Very effective unless the protoss is rushing a stargate and gets a couple of void rays out.
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Norway839 Posts
On January 20 2012 22:36 pintipanda wrote:
just saw this tactic executed by Targa against Hasuobs in IEM Kiev 2012 (on Antiga Shipyard)
let me say, baneling bust like a boss and a clear win.
ps. Snute, you should really keep writing this strategies when you have time.
Hi yes, this thread is kind of obselete now since the 1 gold base baneling bust is completely unstoppable. I will write a guide for that one, so everyone will start doing it (as if they aren't already lol). I hope Blizzard removes gold bases. Protoss players must stop FFEing on Antiga and Meta, too.
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Personally on Metal I always take the gold as my natural (since they throw a pylon in natural usually, or whatever with probe), then take natural as third, as a fast third vs FFE. I never lose against Toss unless like they are GM level (one of the only times I recall losing was to a VT GM toss in a playhem tournament). But I've never thought of actually taking both golds.
What do you think of going double gold into just standard, safe, macro play?
What do you lose to?
Imo metal is imbalanced in zerg favor (antiga too) because zerg just takes gold third vs ffe, and just wins with huge econ that toss can't possibly stop. Never thought of taking both golds though!
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EPT
