[G] Naniwa's 2-Base Colossus Push PvZ - Page 3

-YoricK-

United States477 Posts

December 21 2011 04:04 GMT

#41

Been doing this today, great build. Only time I lost was when the zerg just built a ton of lings to defend the third. I ended up warping in like 12 zealots and killed a ton of lings and got the third to half health but couldn't take it down. His roaches then finished and I stopped the zealot pressure. Since I couldn't stop the third he then massed a ton of roaches and transitioned into mutas. I pushed out with 2 colossus right as his muta flock came in and didn't have enough stalkers to defend at home. Not sure whether it is better to push out in this situation or fall back and turtle/expand but I decided to go for it and even with good forcefields he overwhelmed me with roaches/mutas (he depowered a couple gateways and then brought his mutas back).

I tried to have my stalkers focus the mutas but they are so pitiful against 20+mutas and then your colossus don't kill the roaches fast enough so you just die. My timing was delayed because I kept warping in zealots but not sure I woulda won anyway as the zerg can trade armies so cost efficiently at that point. His mutas also intercepted my third colossus and killed my robo which hurt as well

GomJabbar

United States161 Posts

December 21 2011 04:46 GMT

#42

>ohokurwrong
As others have pointed out, only 2 base muta hits at 9 minutes, and that's a different situation from what this build is designed for, which is a "safe" 3-base muta build (ling-roach first, then muta later).

>KimJongChill
Yes, 7 gates, my mistake. I'll change that, thanks.

>fallen33
I'll add this to the guide, good question. Naniwa stopped at ~50 probes, but if you want to take a third after killing zerg's 3rd, you can try to keep making them. Weakens the attack though, and I don't really recommend it to be honest.

>Lordcamel
Roaches with drop; roaches with burrow-move... even a solid speed-roach flank - ALL of these strategies can cause problems for this build. I don't doubt it. Anything that can flank a colossus or bypass a forcefield is a threat. I personally haven't experienced any of these though. who rushes for roach-drop or burrow roach in the current metagame? Hardly anybody. And a flank is just a case of being outmicro'd, not a strategic error. Burrow-move roaches can be spotted by the constant zealot harassment all the way up until the final attack - you'll see the spines on the backs of the roaches. It's not hard to chronoboost an observer as soon as you see this and continue with the attack, slightly delayed. I think it's tough for Zerg to beat this unless he's got a TON of roaches, which means the zealot harassment all game long has done virtually no damage and his economy is amazing. Even a ton of roaches are beatable by sentries and colossi, it comes down a lot to execution and positioning. Anyway, those are my thoughts, but as I said I haven't experienced these specific things, so it's mostly speculation.

>OckhamzRazor
No adjustments are needed on a map with a harder to take 3rd. On shattered or even Tal'Darim, in order to take a reasonably-timed 3rd, Zerg will most likely take a farther base without rocks, which is that much easier to pressure with the +1 attack 4 gate zealots. Just make sure to hide a pylon in a good spot near his 3rd. With the 2 initial zealots, you can send one out to likely 3rd base locations, and one goes through Zerg's natural (checking if his rocks are busted - this means a 3rd as well) and up to the main to suicide, checking whether there's gas or a lair or anything like that.

>-YoricK-
Without a replay I can only speculate, but it sounds like you executed the zealot and/or warp prism pressure a bit poorly, resulting in Zerg having a booming economy. It also sounds like you were doing the zealot pressure for too long. You have to be teching constantly; don't get too focused on attacking with zealots while delaying the robo facility or the robo bay. Those shouldn't be delayed at all. There's no way Zerg should have 20 mutas by the time you attack - they can have maybe 15 at the very most, just coming out. Sounds like your timing was a little late. If they do attack your main with mutas, as I covered in the guide, warp in stalkers there while continuing the main attack. If he's attacking the main, warp the stalkers into your natural, and vice-versa, so they don't take damage while warping in. A single warp in of 6-7 stalkers can repel 15 mutas. Best of luck!

ProxyKnoxy

United Kingdom2576 Posts

December 22 2011 11:08 GMT

#43

What do you do if Zerg denys all of your proxy pylon attempts? Is it worth still doing the pressure?

iamke55

United States2806 Posts

December 22 2011 11:21 GMT

#44

On December 22 2011 20:08 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
What do you do if Zerg denys all of your proxy pylon attempts? Is it worth still doing the pressure?

Just warp in from a farther away pylon and bring a probe with your attack. You always need to pressure so the Zerg player doesn't just skip roaches and get faster mutas.

Nate.F

918 Posts

December 22 2011 11:25 GMT

#45

On December 21 2011 09:12 Fallen33 wrote:
Do you constantly probe during this harass??

do you read?(assuming you meant building probes)

Geiko

France2048 Posts

December 22 2011 13:11 GMT

#46

Nicely written. Will definitely try this out.

Arcanefrost

Belgium1257 Posts

December 22 2011 13:15 GMT

#47

Hehe I saw this on his stream yesterday and was amazed. It's insane how much damage you can do with the zealot harass and the immortal drop!

ThePlayer33

Australia2378 Posts

December 22 2011 13:19 GMT

#48

ncie write up! i learnt a lot

bowenkhong

Singapore43 Posts

December 22 2011 15:53 GMT

#49

Hi, what if the Zerg don't go for a fast 3rd? he went for 2 base muta which is quite common on map such as Tal'darim. I have a really hard time dealing with it.

and also how about if Zerg went for 1/1 roaches on 2 base? sorry for asking, understand that this is not part of the topic as we assume Zerg is taking a fast 3rd.

Thanks

OxyFuel

Canada195 Posts

December 24 2011 04:33 GMT

#50

On December 23 2011 00:53 bowenkhong wrote:
Hi, what if the Zerg don't go for a fast 3rd? he went for 2 base muta which is quite common on map such as Tal'darim. I have a really hard time dealing with it.

and also how about if Zerg went for 1/1 roaches on 2 base? sorry for asking, understand that this is not part of the topic as we assume Zerg is taking a fast 3rd.

Thanks

The OP specifically states that this doesn't work well again'st 2 base zergs... So if you see he's not taking a fast third, you should scrap this build and do something else that game.

Drowsy

United States4876 Posts

December 26 2011 06:44 GMT

#51

Hey, I did this build with a stargate opener. The problem with 4gate +1 zealots is that you need to get really good scouting early and know 100% he's taking a third, a stargate with 4wg zealots but without +1 attack can still hit at 8:30 if it turns out he did in fact take a third. You get a little more flexibility with this, you have the stargate to be relatively more safe against a 2 base baneling or roach, but you can still put on pressure on the 3rd. Also many zergs scout a stargate and instantly just drone to 70, build a few more queens, and a few spores and have no units to defend their 3rd against your zealots.

Anyway I've done it a few games and it seems to work and you hit with 2 ranged colossi, 2 voidrays, 12 stalkers, 4 sentries, and zealot "leftovers" at around 12:30-12:45. I also had excess minerals to start a 3rd. If you kill the third hatch and push here I think it's an auto-win. Obv it's not realistic to kill the 3rd very often, but I think if you can nuke down 6-8 drones you can probably win.

BoondockVeritas

United States191 Posts

December 26 2011 07:39 GMT

#52

Despite the mad amount of hate people are throwing at this build, I think it's good. Naniwa is better than every single one of the people that is going to comment on this (assuming some other pro doesn't throw in now...), so I don't think all their "It fails to this and this and that" is really too important assuming you know enough about the build to adapt like naniwa. Naniwa beat nestea before and he's rated as one of the best or the best zergs on the planet. I've also seen huk open up with the forge expand/nexus first build with the zealot > 4gate +1 atk off two base. Only difference is depending on what he sees I've seen him go for zealots with some sentry or tech after that little push or take a fast third base. I used a similar opening vs a master zerg in a bo3 with a masters zerg and won with it

I wouldn't say that everyone has figured it out depending on how well you can execute it.

iamke55

United States2806 Posts

January 06 2012 21:25 GMT

#53

After using this build several times, I found that it's pretty much an auto-win against someone who tries to make mutas too early. Against someone smart who stays on combat units longer, it is very effective to slowly push closer to the Zerg's main until you can set up the warp prism on the edge of his main. At that point you can harass his main with zealots and try to snipe important buildings like the roach warren. If the Zerg player doesn't split his units well to defend your aggression, you can go crush his main army while force fielding the ramp. Even if Zerg defends it and you don't do damage, you force the Zerg to play more defensively so you can advance your army position.

Replays:
http://drop.sc/85479
http://drop.sc/85480
http://drop.sc/85485

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