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On December 15 2011 08:48 kcdc wrote:People's problem with this thread is that it purports to be "lessons learned" from analyzing Stephano's ZvT style in a game against MakaPrime, but it's actually Tang writing about how Tang likes to play infestor+ling vs T. For example, Stephano opens hatch first. About this, Tang writes: Show nested quote +Early Timings -Contrary to popular belief, the exact build you decide to open with is not THAT significant. Just because Stephano and many pros open with a hatch first doesn’t mean you should do it blindly too. Don’t play risky and do a hatch first praying your opponent opens 1rax and not 2rax, you’ll find a speedling expand will perform much the same way. So the lesson Tang learned from Stephano's hatch first opening was that hatch first makes no difference. That makes sense. He then goes on to talk a little bit about general ZvT tips--things like "pull enough drones to defend without losing a lot," "spread creep," "be active with your zerglings," "spread overlords for vision," and "delay or deny expansions." These are the new ideas that Tang learned from Stephano that inspired the post? I don't play Zerg or Terran and I knew all that stuff. One suspects that these are just Tang's general tips, and he wanted to start a new thread where he could share them. And those suspicions are immediately confirmed with Tang finishes his post with a list of general ZvT tips that weren't even featured in the replay he picked. This thread isn't analysis of a pro game to glean some new, useful information. This is a general advice thread with only obvious advice. And given the poster's TL history, it feels like the goal of the post was self-promotion.
I'm glad there's people on TL like you who can say what needs to be said without coming off as a douche (and/or getting banned).
Honestly, if I tried to write a post in response to one of Tang's threads I would probably be perma-banned because I'm very honest about my opinion. I mean on the surface you can obviously tell he is trying to promote himself at every chance he gets, but when you look deeper you'll notice other things like multiple accounts with 1-5 posts praising all of his guides (hmm...), him bumping his threads in any way possible, or even arrogant comments like "oh, I beat stephano so I'm allowed to criticize him  " etc. Ugh... sorry tang, I appreciate you contributing to the community but your motivations just feel so selfish.
Anyways... I agree that this thread doesn't really talk so much about stephano's style and it does, quite frankly, come off as arrogant with you suggesting how stephano should play better at the end.
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On December 15 2011 11:12 justindab0mb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:48 kcdc wrote:People's problem with this thread is that it purports to be "lessons learned" from analyzing Stephano's ZvT style in a game against MakaPrime, but it's actually Tang writing about how Tang likes to play infestor+ling vs T. For example, Stephano opens hatch first. About this, Tang writes: Early Timings -Contrary to popular belief, the exact build you decide to open with is not THAT significant. Just because Stephano and many pros open with a hatch first doesn’t mean you should do it blindly too. Don’t play risky and do a hatch first praying your opponent opens 1rax and not 2rax, you’ll find a speedling expand will perform much the same way. So the lesson Tang learned from Stephano's hatch first opening was that hatch first makes no difference. That makes sense. He then goes on to talk a little bit about general ZvT tips--things like "pull enough drones to defend without losing a lot," "spread creep," "be active with your zerglings," "spread overlords for vision," and "delay or deny expansions." These are the new ideas that Tang learned from Stephano that inspired the post? I don't play Zerg or Terran and I knew all that stuff. One suspects that these are just Tang's general tips, and he wanted to start a new thread where he could share them. And those suspicions are immediately confirmed with Tang finishes his post with a list of general ZvT tips that weren't even featured in the replay he picked. This thread isn't analysis of a pro game to glean some new, useful information. This is a general advice thread with only obvious advice. And given the poster's TL history, it feels like the goal of the post was self-promotion. I'm glad there's people on TL like you who can say what needs to be said without coming off as a douche (and/or getting banned). Honestly, if I tried to write a post in response to one of Tang's threads I would probably be perma-banned because I'm very honest about my opinion. I mean on the surface you can obviously tell he is trying to promote himself at every chance he gets, but when you look deeper you'll notice other things like multiple accounts with 1-5 posts praising all of his guides (hmm...), him bumping his threads in any way possible, or even arrogant comments like "oh, I beat stephano so I'm allowed to criticize him " etc. Ugh... sorry tang, I appreciate you contributing to the community but your motivations just feel so selfish. Anyways... I agree that this thread doesn't really talk so much about stephano's style and it does, quite frankly, come off as arrogant with you suggesting how stephano should play better at the end.
People like him?TT I'm getting no credit for stepping up and saying out loud what everyone's thinking? I guess that's because I ain't got blue poster status
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On December 16 2011 00:41 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:12 justindab0mb wrote:On December 15 2011 08:48 kcdc wrote:People's problem with this thread is that it purports to be "lessons learned" from analyzing Stephano's ZvT style in a game against MakaPrime, but it's actually Tang writing about how Tang likes to play infestor+ling vs T. For example, Stephano opens hatch first. About this, Tang writes: Early Timings -Contrary to popular belief, the exact build you decide to open with is not THAT significant. Just because Stephano and many pros open with a hatch first doesn’t mean you should do it blindly too. Don’t play risky and do a hatch first praying your opponent opens 1rax and not 2rax, you’ll find a speedling expand will perform much the same way. So the lesson Tang learned from Stephano's hatch first opening was that hatch first makes no difference. That makes sense. He then goes on to talk a little bit about general ZvT tips--things like "pull enough drones to defend without losing a lot," "spread creep," "be active with your zerglings," "spread overlords for vision," and "delay or deny expansions." These are the new ideas that Tang learned from Stephano that inspired the post? I don't play Zerg or Terran and I knew all that stuff. One suspects that these are just Tang's general tips, and he wanted to start a new thread where he could share them. And those suspicions are immediately confirmed with Tang finishes his post with a list of general ZvT tips that weren't even featured in the replay he picked. This thread isn't analysis of a pro game to glean some new, useful information. This is a general advice thread with only obvious advice. And given the poster's TL history, it feels like the goal of the post was self-promotion. I'm glad there's people on TL like you who can say what needs to be said without coming off as a douche (and/or getting banned). Honestly, if I tried to write a post in response to one of Tang's threads I would probably be perma-banned because I'm very honest about my opinion. I mean on the surface you can obviously tell he is trying to promote himself at every chance he gets, but when you look deeper you'll notice other things like multiple accounts with 1-5 posts praising all of his guides (hmm...), him bumping his threads in any way possible, or even arrogant comments like "oh, I beat stephano so I'm allowed to criticize him " etc. Ugh... sorry tang, I appreciate you contributing to the community but your motivations just feel so selfish. Anyways... I agree that this thread doesn't really talk so much about stephano's style and it does, quite frankly, come off as arrogant with you suggesting how stephano should play better at the end. People like him?TT I'm getting no credit for stepping up and saying out loud what everyone's thinking? I guess that's because I ain't got blue poster status
If it means anything I'm creditting you and share your stance. I just never saw the need to ever bump one of his threads with me disagreeing with him in a major way, because it would give him more publicity while giving the people who need help or made a great post will be forgotten due to the way the forum works ( more drama posts give your thread more replies and views because it is up higher ).
The mods are doing what they can ( they did ban him for 2 days because he was just promoting his thread in a help thread instead of actually giving help ) but technically if he makes posts he isn't breaking any rules.
The best way to deal with him is to just ignore him completely and not put any posts on his threads if you disagree with his views. There's tons of help threads out there that genuinely need help but suffer the fate of going unnoticed while drama threads with everyone shitting on the OP stay up high ( see the Grandmaster by 6 pooling thread ).
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I'm glad there's people on TL like you who can say what needs to be said without coming off as a douche (and/or getting banned).
I actually thought my comment was a little douchey, but I gave in to my urge to say what I thought after decaf's exchange (I thought decaf was right). I don't want to bash Tang. He seems like a nice enough kid that loves SC2 and is pretty good at it. He just wants people to know that he's pretty good at SC2 which can rub people the wrong way, but it's not a cardinal sin. It's probably the norm at a certain age range.
Honestly, I think if this thread were titled and packaged slightly differently, nobody would have had a problem with it. It would have just been a generic "basic advice" guide with some notes about lair timings.
In the spirit of trying to be more helpful:
Tang, if you do another one of these pro-game analysis posts, try to think about what the player does *differently* from normal play, the reasoning behind that difference, and why it works. In this game, the differences from normal ZvT might have been a delayed lair and completely skipping muta tech. Instead of just mentioning the lair timing, tell us what advantage Stephano gains from that timing. And you seemed to take the wrong approach on the muta issue--Stephano made a strategic decision not to get mutas at all in order to get something else (more infestors? faster hive? faster upgrades?). Tell us about that decision and what the considerations are. Don't analyze a game where a player specifically decides to skip mutas and tell us that mutas would have been a nice addition as if the player just forgot.
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interesting read, i am working on this using this style atm and it seems to be working really well, i really appreciate the time and effort the OP put into this, thanks so much!
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On December 16 2011 01:45 gbeads wrote:
interesting read, i am working on this using this style atm and it seems to be working really well, i really appreciate the time and effort the OP put into this, thanks so much!
you have 6 posts. nice try Tang
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On December 16 2011 00:41 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:12 justindab0mb wrote:On December 15 2011 08:48 kcdc wrote:People's problem with this thread is that it purports to be "lessons learned" from analyzing Stephano's ZvT style in a game against MakaPrime, but it's actually Tang writing about how Tang likes to play infestor+ling vs T. For example, Stephano opens hatch first. About this, Tang writes: Early Timings -Contrary to popular belief, the exact build you decide to open with is not THAT significant. Just because Stephano and many pros open with a hatch first doesn’t mean you should do it blindly too. Don’t play risky and do a hatch first praying your opponent opens 1rax and not 2rax, you’ll find a speedling expand will perform much the same way. So the lesson Tang learned from Stephano's hatch first opening was that hatch first makes no difference. That makes sense. He then goes on to talk a little bit about general ZvT tips--things like "pull enough drones to defend without losing a lot," "spread creep," "be active with your zerglings," "spread overlords for vision," and "delay or deny expansions." These are the new ideas that Tang learned from Stephano that inspired the post? I don't play Zerg or Terran and I knew all that stuff. One suspects that these are just Tang's general tips, and he wanted to start a new thread where he could share them. And those suspicions are immediately confirmed with Tang finishes his post with a list of general ZvT tips that weren't even featured in the replay he picked. This thread isn't analysis of a pro game to glean some new, useful information. This is a general advice thread with only obvious advice. And given the poster's TL history, it feels like the goal of the post was self-promotion. I'm glad there's people on TL like you who can say what needs to be said without coming off as a douche (and/or getting banned). Honestly, if I tried to write a post in response to one of Tang's threads I would probably be perma-banned because I'm very honest about my opinion. I mean on the surface you can obviously tell he is trying to promote himself at every chance he gets, but when you look deeper you'll notice other things like multiple accounts with 1-5 posts praising all of his guides (hmm...), him bumping his threads in any way possible, or even arrogant comments like "oh, I beat stephano so I'm allowed to criticize him " etc. Ugh... sorry tang, I appreciate you contributing to the community but your motivations just feel so selfish. Anyways... I agree that this thread doesn't really talk so much about stephano's style and it does, quite frankly, come off as arrogant with you suggesting how stephano should play better at the end. People like him?TT I'm getting no credit for stepping up and saying out loud what everyone's thinking? I guess that's because I ain't got blue poster status
Just using him as an example, I can't give credit to every single person who steps up and says what everyone's thinking. Jeez
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I have to say, I've learned a lot from this thread, and others like it by Tang. He may promote himself, but that's cool, because it helps me find his content, which is beneficial, to at least one person. Should anyone really be criticizing him, if that's the case? I mean, he may not write guides for the masses... but that's okay, too.
Admittedly, the title and the content don't necessarily match, but I found his conceptualization of benchmarks to be very strong. In fact, it was an issue I was having with his build, the Three Barrel Bust, I simply found myself not quite doing things right, or not continuing the build properly after a bunker rush because I felt the numbers were set in stone. I feel like that might be something a lot of players, especially lower tier, might have trouble with.
I also feel like the way he explained the benchmark system -- critical gametimes, whenever they might be, what's going on NOW. Then you know when you reach the general area in your game, you should be heading towards this path. If you're not, there should be a reason WHY. This is all really good meta-game stuff, conceptual information, rather than "make 2 infestors, and don't lose them, and drop infested terran everywhere."
I was already experimenting with Stephano's style. I'm familiar with how Stephano does things. I should probably mention that, as I would definitely say, you won't learn Stephano's style by reading this guide. But in my specific set of circumstances, it was a big glowing sign saying, "hey fucktard [that'd be me], this is what you're doing wrong, and here's how you can fix some of your issues."
I could go more into the blow-by-blows of how this post helped me, but I don't owe anyone that much of an explanation. Get off Tang's ass, please.
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Yeah I have to agree with Shaft. To all you guys that spent your walls of text criticizing Tang, if instead you had spent that time trying to help us newer and lower level players learn something, you might have actually contributed something to this thread instead of just trolling it.
Tang may self promote, but who cares. Plenty of casters/pros shamelessly self promote in replays and interviews all the time. Its how you get your name out there. What matters is that you're trying to do something helpful along with it. Which I believe Tang was trying to help out the newer players here. Especially ones that have read his guides like Shaft and myself.
For me personally, the point about thinking of creep spread as your map vision, was great. I needed to hear that. I am terrible with my Platinum level creep spread. I normally think of it as just needed in the front of my base so I can't get contained in ZvT. But that's obviously wrong. So will be a good point for me to work on.
Thanks Tang. Keep up the good work. H8rs gonna h8.
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Sigh....why bash the "haters" when the thread is still open -___-
Tang is only banned for self-promotion, and other than that, he has done plenty good things, stop accusing people for bashing other people for no reason before you read every thing -__-
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On December 13 2011 08:22 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:22 NrGmonk wrote:
Ok, here's my feedback. I know you're trying to copy my thread, but it really isn't the same thing. My thread was pointing out individual things Brown did in the game that were somewhat independent from each other. Your thread is a description of a typical Stephano ZvT with bits of your own advice that you sprinkle in without relating them back to the actual game. Overall, your entire post references little to the actual game. You could have written this about any of Stephano's standard ZvTs and ended up with pretty much the same thing. Anyways, my point is that if you're going to write a game analysis, be ready to give to actually talk about the actual game.
Your spoiler-ed points also don't relate to Stephano's particular ZvT style at all. Things like spreading overlords, spreading creep, denying expansions, and stopping bunker rushes are common tips not specific at all to Stephano style ZvT.
Your description of Stephano's style is little more than a build order with no analysis about the actual style. I'd really like to get into the mind of Stephano and find out why he does what he does. But if that wasn't your intention, to analyze Stephano's style, that's perfectly fine.
Overall, I'm just unsure where you were going with this post. It seems rather all over the place, as if you were trying to write about a lot of stuff without having an actual purpose or direction.
In addition, at the end, you add in your own suggestions to Stephano, which does make you seem quite arrogant as you've stated. You've given 3 suggestions, but haven't convinced me of any of these suggestions. I feel that if you're going to argue with a pro's game plan, especially the tried and true one that Stephano uses, you'd better have an extremely solid argument and be ready to back it up. For example, a spire plus 5-8 mutas is at least 700 gas, which is almost 5 infestors. And 5-6 mutas don't even kill a marine drop by themselves. It's suggestions like these that diminish your credibility.
While I did enjoy reading parts of your Brown vs Losira thread, I wasn't basing my analysis of Stephano's play on it. Instead, I wanted a concise and practical analysis that could easily be applied to players new to or still learning this style. I think the structure and information is pretty concise and clear, and if you disagree with the suggestions that's fine but to say it "diminishes my credibility" to say Stephano could benefit from drop play is a bit offensive and unwarranted. I think you're absolutely right in that I need to elaborate on my suggestions more and I completely agree that I need more references to the actual game. Expect an update on that soon, thank you for the advice! Edit: Also, since I've beat Stephano, I should be allowed to give him a suggestion 
i entirely disagree with this post. i've beaten many pros but that doesn't mean I am better than them at all and it also doesn't mean that I can or should tell them how they should play differently. similarly, just because you've beaten stephano doesn't mean you have the right to give him suggestions on how to play. perhaps you cheesed him and he was trying something new, or perhaps he was simply not trying (extremely likely, since I assume you played him on NA ladder and not in a tournament/LAN).
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On December 17 2011 00:19 simian_sc wrote:
Yeah I have to agree with Shaft. To all you guys that spent your walls of text criticizing Tang, if instead you had spent that time trying to help us newer and lower level players learn something, you might have actually contributed something to this thread instead of just trolling it.
Tang may self promote, but who cares. Plenty of casters/pros shamelessly self promote in replays and interviews all the time. Its how you get your name out there. What matters is that you're trying to do something helpful along with it. Which I believe Tang was trying to help out the newer players here. Especially ones that have read his guides like Shaft and myself.
For me personally, the point about thinking of creep spread as your map vision, was great. I needed to hear that. I am terrible with my Platinum level creep spread. I normally think of it as just needed in the front of my base so I can't get contained in ZvT. But that's obviously wrong. So will be a good point for me to work on.
Thanks Tang. Keep up the good work. H8rs gonna h8.
I hope you now that everyone here with a blue post has done more to help people in the strategy forums than Tang ever will.
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On December 17 2011 01:22 Malstriks wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:22 TangSC wrote:On December 13 2011 07:22 NrGmonk wrote:
Ok, here's my feedback. I know you're trying to copy my thread, but it really isn't the same thing. My thread was pointing out individual things Brown did in the game that were somewhat independent from each other. Your thread is a description of a typical Stephano ZvT with bits of your own advice that you sprinkle in without relating them back to the actual game. Overall, your entire post references little to the actual game. You could have written this about any of Stephano's standard ZvTs and ended up with pretty much the same thing. Anyways, my point is that if you're going to write a game analysis, be ready to give to actually talk about the actual game.
Your spoiler-ed points also don't relate to Stephano's particular ZvT style at all. Things like spreading overlords, spreading creep, denying expansions, and stopping bunker rushes are common tips not specific at all to Stephano style ZvT.
Your description of Stephano's style is little more than a build order with no analysis about the actual style. I'd really like to get into the mind of Stephano and find out why he does what he does. But if that wasn't your intention, to analyze Stephano's style, that's perfectly fine.
Overall, I'm just unsure where you were going with this post. It seems rather all over the place, as if you were trying to write about a lot of stuff without having an actual purpose or direction.
In addition, at the end, you add in your own suggestions to Stephano, which does make you seem quite arrogant as you've stated. You've given 3 suggestions, but haven't convinced me of any of these suggestions. I feel that if you're going to argue with a pro's game plan, especially the tried and true one that Stephano uses, you'd better have an extremely solid argument and be ready to back it up. For example, a spire plus 5-8 mutas is at least 700 gas, which is almost 5 infestors. And 5-6 mutas don't even kill a marine drop by themselves. It's suggestions like these that diminish your credibility.
While I did enjoy reading parts of your Brown vs Losira thread, I wasn't basing my analysis of Stephano's play on it. Instead, I wanted a concise and practical analysis that could easily be applied to players new to or still learning this style. I think the structure and information is pretty concise and clear, and if you disagree with the suggestions that's fine but to say it "diminishes my credibility" to say Stephano could benefit from drop play is a bit offensive and unwarranted. I think you're absolutely right in that I need to elaborate on my suggestions more and I completely agree that I need more references to the actual game. Expect an update on that soon, thank you for the advice! Edit: Also, since I've beat Stephano, I should be allowed to give him a suggestion i entirely disagree with this post. i've beaten many pros but that doesn't mean I am better than them at all and it also doesn't mean that I can or should tell them how they should play differently. similarly, just because you've beaten stephano doesn't mean you have the right to give him suggestions on how to play. perhaps you cheesed him and he was trying something new, or perhaps he was simply not trying (extremely likely, since I assume you played him on NA ladder and not in a tournament/LAN).
Stephano is 10x better than I am lol I'm jk. The suggestions are merely food for thought, something to think about and discuss - I wasn't saying Stephano needs to do these things to improve, I'm saying that in my opinion they might be worth-while investments and inviting others to agree, disagree, and make suggestions of their own.
EDIT: Speaking of which I'd love to hear other peoples' opinions of using drops mid/late game against terran. I've been doing it a lot against protoss and it's been great but I almost never do ling or ling/bane drops against T.
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On December 17 2011 01:51 Odal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:19 simian_sc wrote:
Yeah I have to agree with Shaft. To all you guys that spent your walls of text criticizing Tang, if instead you had spent that time trying to help us newer and lower level players learn something, you might have actually contributed something to this thread instead of just trolling it.
Tang may self promote, but who cares. Plenty of casters/pros shamelessly self promote in replays and interviews all the time. Its how you get your name out there. What matters is that you're trying to do something helpful along with it. Which I believe Tang was trying to help out the newer players here. Especially ones that have read his guides like Shaft and myself.
For me personally, the point about thinking of creep spread as your map vision, was great. I needed to hear that. I am terrible with my Platinum level creep spread. I normally think of it as just needed in the front of my base so I can't get contained in ZvT. But that's obviously wrong. So will be a good point for me to work on.
Thanks Tang. Keep up the good work. H8rs gonna h8. I hope you now that everyone here with a blue post has done more to help people in the strategy forums than Tang ever will.
I'm pretty sure this blatantly qualifies as trolling so... stfu. I've seen plenty of people with blue posts be just as stupid as you are now. No real big deal. But it should definitely be noted you're posting in the strategy forum, and the content of your post has nothing to do with strategy. That pretty much qualifies you as a spammer, as well as a troll. By the way, "know" is spelled with a "k," I hope you now that.
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Honestly, Tang, I've been using roach drops a bit vs T. The moving drop, where you click on the overlord, is great for auto-spreading them vs tank fire.
Also, not to get off subject, but I'm certain Tang might benefit from this question as much as I: What constitutes self-promotion? So often I've found myself wanting to give someone advice, but knowing that forums are not a practical media by which to do so. I might have a replay, or have read an article, or saw a VoD that's worth posting, and relevant to the question -- it might even answer the question entirely. But should I not post it?
Most people will say "yes, post it." But now, what if I made that VoD myself? If it's EXACTLY the same VoD, and it still answers the question EXACTLY, is it "self promotion" to link to it?
I'm going to offer an answer, and please guys, feel free to disagree with it. I am kind of trying to encourage that, so that clearer boundaries are established within the forum. But in my eyes, as long as the link is not posted stand-alone, that is to say, there's some kind of explanation like
Thread titled: [H]Dealing with Bunker Rushes in ZvT
You need to exercise proper drone control. The best way to do that in my opinion is to pull 6-8 workers, and place a worker or two on each side of the bunker. Use one drone to target fire the building SCV, and 2 drones to intercept a marine. If you have any questions about what I mean or would like to see this in action, check out this vod: xxx.com
then it should be alright. This is obviously potentially abusable, but that can be handled. Some balance between the two is a necessity.
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The writeup is slightly less concise then the way Id like it to be, but thanks for it anyways,
Ive been reading and watching your threads do improve my play, and your discussions and your perspective on Zerg gameplay has been very resourceful.
Also, to everyone else, keep your opinions that are irrelevent to Tang's actual discussion out, its hard to read through a thread filled with such irrelevent nonsense about his characther rather then the actual disccussion at hand.
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Ok, I've made a couple updates to the OP that I hope will emphasize my points about Stephano's unique style. I've also added discussion questions that I hope some of you will take the time to analyze with me. The first question is...
1) Why does Stephano get such a late 3rd? It seemed that at 7:30 he has complete map control...why not take it then?
When I first watched the game, I was shocked that Stephano didn't take his expansion right after his lings cleaned up Makaprime's marine push. I felt he was definitely safe to do it, but instead he just added more creep, zerglings, gas, and even a macro hatch before finally taking his expansion at 10:15 or so. While there are likely a number of reasons for this, I think the main explanation is that you don't really use your 3rd base to boost your economy for a long time anyway. A lot of zerg players rush their 3rd base, and end up just using the larva to produce units to defend mid-game terran pressure. Instead of taking the 3rd in a somewhat risky location on Shakuras, Stephano opts to build a macro hatch so that he can increase his production without added risk. I don't think many diamond or lower players realize the full production capabilities of 2base zerg (or 2base zerg with a macro hatch), and rush to take their 3rd where they feel they have to be to compete with 2base terran. From watching Stephano's play, I've realized a lot unnecessary risks I've made in the mid game.
When Stephano finally took his 3rd, makaprime actually dropped on it and forced the cancel - and that's when I realized that if he had built the expansion earlier, he probably would have lost it anyway.
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Ok, I've made a couple updates to the OP that I hope will emphasize my points about Stephano's unique style. I've also added discussion questions that I hope some of you will take the time to analyze with me. The first question is...
1) Why does Stephano get such a late 3rd? It seemed that at 7:30 he has complete map control...why not take it then?
When I first watched the game, I was shocked that Stephano didn't take his expansion right after his lings cleaned up Makaprime's marine push. I felt he was definitely safe to do it, but instead he just added more creep, zerglings, gas, and even a macro hatch before finally taking his expansion at 10:15 or so. While there are likely a number of reasons for this, I think the main explanation is that you don't really use your 3rd base to boost your economy for a long time anyway. A lot of zerg players rush their 3rd base, and end up just using the larva to produce units to defend mid-game terran pressure. Instead of taking the 3rd in a somewhat risky location on Shakuras, Stephano opts to build a macro hatch so that he can increase his production without added risk. I don't think many diamond or lower players realize the full production capabilities of 2base zerg (or 2base zerg with a macro hatch), and rush to take their 3rd where they feel they have to be to compete with 2base terran. From watching Stephano's play, I've realized a lot unnecessary risks I've made in the mid game.
When Stephano finally took his 3rd, makaprime actually dropped on it and forced the cancel - and that's when I realized that if he had built the expansion earlier, he probably would have lost it anyway.
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On December 16 2011 01:15 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +I'm glad there's people on TL like you who can say what needs to be said without coming off as a douche (and/or getting banned). I actually thought my comment was a little douchey, but I gave in to my urge to say what I thought after decaf's exchange (I thought decaf was right). I don't want to bash Tang. He seems like a nice enough kid that loves SC2 and is pretty good at it. He just wants people to know that he's pretty good at SC2 which can rub people the wrong way, but it's not a cardinal sin. It's probably the norm at a certain age range. Honestly, I think if this thread were titled and packaged slightly differently, nobody would have had a problem with it. It would have just been a generic "basic advice" guide with some notes about lair timings. In the spirit of trying to be more helpful: Tang, if you do another one of these pro-game analysis posts, try to think about what the player does *differently* from normal play, the reasoning behind that difference, and why it works. In this game, the differences from normal ZvT might have been a delayed lair and completely skipping muta tech. Instead of just mentioning the lair timing, tell us what advantage Stephano gains from that timing. And you seemed to take the wrong approach on the muta issue--Stephano made a strategic decision not to get mutas at all in order to get something else (more infestors? faster hive? faster upgrades?). Tell us about that decision and what the considerations are. Don't analyze a game where a player specifically decides to skip mutas and tell us that mutas would have been a nice addition as if the player just forgot.
I admit I cringed and gritted my teeth a little at your implication that I'm some child, lol, but I do appreciate the advice about what the player does *differently* and made a few adjustments to my introductory paragraph. So thank you.
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On December 20 2011 01:56 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 01:15 kcdc wrote:I'm glad there's people on TL like you who can say what needs to be said without coming off as a douche (and/or getting banned). I actually thought my comment was a little douchey, but I gave in to my urge to say what I thought after decaf's exchange (I thought decaf was right). I don't want to bash Tang. He seems like a nice enough kid that loves SC2 and is pretty good at it. He just wants people to know that he's pretty good at SC2 which can rub people the wrong way, but it's not a cardinal sin. It's probably the norm at a certain age range. Honestly, I think if this thread were titled and packaged slightly differently, nobody would have had a problem with it. It would have just been a generic "basic advice" guide with some notes about lair timings. In the spirit of trying to be more helpful: Tang, if you do another one of these pro-game analysis posts, try to think about what the player does *differently* from normal play, the reasoning behind that difference, and why it works. In this game, the differences from normal ZvT might have been a delayed lair and completely skipping muta tech. Instead of just mentioning the lair timing, tell us what advantage Stephano gains from that timing. And you seemed to take the wrong approach on the muta issue--Stephano made a strategic decision not to get mutas at all in order to get something else (more infestors? faster hive? faster upgrades?). Tell us about that decision and what the considerations are. Don't analyze a game where a player specifically decides to skip mutas and tell us that mutas would have been a nice addition as if the player just forgot. I admit I cringed and gritted my teeth a little at your implication that I'm some child, lol, but I do appreciate the advice about what the player does *differently* and made a few adjustments to my introductory paragraph. So thank you.
I'm going to have to agree with Monk and Kcdc here, but I think it's really great how you are taking the criticisms very well. To be honest, I've seen a lot of your threads and you came off as a bit arrogant and a little too strong on the self-promotion. However, I feel like you are really trying to help all players and are truly passionate for the game, and I really respect your ability to not be overly defensive when respected TL members are putting you down.
If you made everything a little less about "Tang," I don't think anyone would have a problem with anything. I imagine it must be hard when the community that you love starts to flame you for your efforts, but there are reasons for it, and these reasons can be addressed! I think everyone should acknowledge your willingness to adapt and listen to suggestions, and I hope that you can keep contributing with their comments in mind!
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Yeah, Tang, about your discussion questions, I agree alot of players allow what they hear to affect what they do. What I mean by that is, how many times have you and I, as Zerg players, heard that you must always, 100%, unequivocally be up a base? Too many times to count, but I think players like Stephano actually show otherwise. You hit most of the explaining points well -- no economic boost, just production for the mid-game, etc -- but I think for Stephano, it's a few other things, as well. What you said is absolutely right, but consider these factors as well:
In a situation where you are FORCED to remain on two bases in a ZvT, what is the best case scenario?
- Amazing drone saturation
- Strong production, from maco hatcheries
- Very centralized bases, rather than being spread out everywhere
- And, most importantly of all, you can tech a lot harder, a lot faster
Stephano is one of my favorite players. I study his games, have entire notebooks dedicated to what he does in every situation. You've kind of combined, in the OP, his new style with his old style, and offered no distinction between the two. Partly, it's because in the game you're analyzing, he opens with his old BO, and seems to be trying to do the heavy infestor style he has been known for.
It used to be that Stephano favored ling-infestor over pretty much everything else. Now, he's favoring pure ling with 3/3 upgrades, adrenal glands, and some form of hive tech -- usually ultra, but he's known for his tech switching in this period. So the reason, in my opinion, that he goes for a later third is so he can get his hive tech -- I think that's his primary motivating factor. You don't really see it in this game vs Maka, but player tendency plays a factor here. In this particular game, it's debatable whether a quicker third would have helped or hindered his strategy, but in Stephano's experience of high-tech games, he tends to favor delayed expansions.
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EPT
