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Hello TL, I was watching Stephano's Stream ladder matches on KR and decided to take some notes. Much to my delight, the first game was against Makaprime and it's an epic 45minute ZvT. I wrote down some of Stephanos timings, a few of the things I liked about his play, and a few things I think could help with mid/late game terran pressure.
Here is a link to the Stream Episode I refer to:
http://www.justin.tv/mstephano/b/301951370
Introduction:
If I could choose two adjectives to describe Stephano's ZvT playstyle, it would be SAFE and ACTIVE, and not the usual words used to describe macro zerg like "reactionary" or "economical". The basic outline of Stephano's ZvT style is to hold his fast expansion with drones/lings and finally a spine/queen. Then, he drones up off two bases and builds two evolution chambers zergling upgrades, while periodically adding on more lings to stay safe.
One of the most important things to take away from Stephano is the amount of lings he makes at various stages of the game. So many macro players try to squeeze out economic advantages by cutting units here and there. In both ZvP and ZvT, I've rarely seen Stephano make such cuts - instead, he's extremely active in the mid-game and uses a huge, mobile ground army to safely secure additional expansions. A lot of players play very economically and look for ways to cut unit production to get additional drones and expand/tech earlier, but Stephano doesn't do this. We see a perfect example at 7:30 in the game against Makaprime, where Stephano crushes Makaprime's marines, putting him in a very safe position. But he STILL chose to produce addition lings, spread creep, and build a macro hatch before taking a third at 10:15.
He even goes for a very late lair by ZvT standard (9:15) and relies on heavy creep spread and an ever-increasing ling-count (gasless investments) to defend harassment and timing attacks. Once he gets a lair, he adds on an infestation pit and starts taking additional bases while using an enormous infestor/ling army to defend drops or straight-pushes. Finally by the 15minute mark he gets his hive and maxes out between 18 or 19minutes with heavily upgraded infestor/ling/ultralisks. Even though Stephano's style can be categorized as macro, I think he would agree that zergs should play safe not risky and active not passive.
Timing Notes
It will be important, when trying any style, not to look at timings as strictly set-in-stone. Instead, use them as a reference or an outline in conjunction with your ability to scout and adapt to your opponent. In other words, you don't have to have the exact units at the exact time Stephano does, but if he's doing something like droning hard until the 7 minute mark and then making a lot of lings, you may want to consider the reasoning behind it. This type of information will help you set benchmarks (See bold text below - we'll talk more about benchmarks later).
+ Show Spoiler +Early Game:
15Hatch
15Pool
17Gas (Using 15th Drone)
3:30 Drone Scout
At 100gas, start Zergling speed and remove drones from gas, start you 2nd queen. With your first queen, already start spreading creep. (Remember, it's absolutely essential to spread creep actively with this style).
7:00 30 Zerglings on the field.
Early-Mid Game:
7:30 3rd queen (AGAIN spread that creep like crazy with this queen, drones back in gas and build 2nd geyser (This gas will be going towards early +1)
8:00 First Evolution Chamber
8:15 3rd Gas
8:30 Macro Hatch
8:35 Second Evolution Chamber (Start +1 at both evolution chambers as soon as they finish)
9:15 Lair, all gas are full, and at least 30+lings on field with xel naga vision.
Late-Mid Game:
10:00 3rd Base with 40+ lings on the field (Keep in mind this is the 4th hatchery)
Infestation pit 10:30, 4th queen to inject at macro hatch.
It's important to keep larva spits up, creep spreading, and overlord production WELL AHEAD of supply block so that if need be, you can produce oodles of zerglings to defend.
11:30/12:00 4th base (5th hatchery)
12:30 80 lings on the field! +2/+2 well on the way.
Late Game:
Use infestors and lings to hold off drops/pushes, and hopefully delay terran 3rd.
Hive done before 15min. Ultra den, adrenal glands, +3+3 are priorities. 5 Bases, great saturation, lots of gas for infestors and ultras. Control the middle of the map, continue adding creep.
Maxed out with upgraded Ling/Infestor/Ultra by 18/19 Minutes
Tips I Learned from Stephano
Early Timings - Stephano showcases that you can hold any marine/bunker pressure with just drones and zerglings. This is the most economical opening, so learn the timings and micro to hold it. If you are a player who struggles with early pressure, though, you CAN go for a speedling expand and play the build out much the same way.
Dealing with scv/marine pressure - A trademark in Stephano’s play (and really a lot of high level zerg) is they use a LOT of drones to defend early terran pressure. It’s important to win the battles without losing drones, so it’s actually better to pull a lot of drones as you can just transfer them to expansion when pressure is held. As a rule of thumb, send 5 Drones when there’s 1 scv and 1 marine, if there’s 2 scvs or 2 marines send 8 drones. Build a spine crawler, 1 queen, and at least 6 lings (Stephano made about 10-12 this game).
Set Benchmarks – If you’re learning this style, set benchmarks at a few key stages of the game. For example, the 9minute, 15minute, and 20minute mark. View the replays and check vision, creep, upgrades, saturation, food count, and army size. This will give you an idea of what you need to work on.
Example: Stephano 9Minute (Pre-Lair) Benchmark
30+ Active Lings
Creep Spread past expansion ramp
3 Queens
60+Supply fully saturating 2 bases gas/minerals
Overlords are spread with Xel Naga control
Macro hatch and +1+1 on the way
If these things aren't consistent in your play, find out why.
Keep spreading that creep! - If you watch the minimap in any Stephano ZvT, you'll see creep everywhere so I repeat the importance of creep over and over because it's so crucial to the style. Think of map vision as a resource, you constantly need more creep and you should consider spreading creep to be a priority on par with producing drones and injecting. If you lose creep, you should try to replace it almost immediately and always try to have a queen dedicated only to dropping tumors. If you watch when Stephano loses a queen or a tumor, it's pretty certain he'll replace it promptly.
Be Active with your zerglings - Zerglings are so cheap that they’re often described as expendable, but this doesn’t mean that once you build them they’re useless. As we see in the game vs Makaprime, they DO serve as a defensive precaution incase you’re attacked by the marine/tank midgame push. Still, if you're not attacked you can find other uses for them as well…
1) Take the Xel-Naga
2) Scout and spot the front of the terran base
3) Break Rocks (Almost all rocks are a good idea to destroy, terran don’t often do multi-pronged ground attacks like Zerg).
4) Hide a handful of lings to do runbys when terran pushes out.
Overlord Production/Spreading - Remember, there are no mutas with this style so map vision is even more important that usual. Try to get in the habit of producing overlords and rallying them immediately to “drop hotspots.” As soon as it was getting close to the time where marine drops were possible, Stephano had overlords placed so that no matter where a drop came from he would have vision of it. Suggestion: Hold the xel naga and place overlords in a line above and below it so you have a straight-line of vision through the center of the map (as well as overlords spread sporadically around the map and spewing creep at possible expansions).
Delaying or Denying Expansions - There's the obvious fact that Stephano uses his ling/infestor to delay makaprime's 3rd. Sometimes you can do other things to delay an expansion as well: get burrow and overlord speed when lair is done to spew creep AND burrow a zergling at the terran’s 3rd and 4th base locations.
Suggestions
Note: These are merely suggestions/personal prefence.
Overlord Drop I think overlord drop and speed are such crucial upgrades in late game ZvT. Stephano skipped both, and he was constantly under drop-pressure from the terran all game. He lost expansions, drones, creep, overlords, etc to Makaprime's drops. I feel like if he were able to do drops with even just some "cracklings" here and there, he could have picked off production structures, scvs, and even expansions in the latter stages of the game. Also, if you look at 26:30 in the game, Maka is using the mid-map highground for tanks. Stephano used infested terran to combat this, but I feel like dropping an ultra up there would be a better response.
More Spines Starting at the 10:30 mark, Stephano is constantly tested with Maka's marine drops. Spines are too big an investment in the early stages of 2-3 bases, but In the late game when he had maxed out with 4+ spread-out bases, spines at each base definitely would have helped him defend (18:50, 20:00, 24:09). Time (especially in the late game) s a resource and if you're spending your time running your ling/infestor/ultra army around the map to defend drops, then you're NOT able to do more important things like pressure your opponent and spread creep. Building 5 spines at a base isn't the most economical defense in terms of resources, but it will save you time to do other things.
Ling Runbys I always see Nerchio do this to GREAT effect, so I think it's something to consider. A handful (8-14) is not a large investment and can kill scvs/reinforcements and occasionally force terran to pull back their main attack. In the latter stages, bigger ling run-bys are possible and you can even use burrow or overlord drop to hide your lings.
Discussion Questions (Answer Below!)
1) Why does Stephano get such a late 3rd? It seemed that at 7:30 he has complete map control...why not take it then?
Answer 1: + Show Spoiler +When I first watched the game, I was shocked that Stephano didn't take his expansion right after his lings cleaned up Makaprime's marine push. I felt he was definitely safe to do it, but instead he just added more creep, zerglings, gas, and even a macro hatch before finally taking his expansion at 10:15 or so. I think the main explanation is that you don't really use your 3rd base to boost your economy for a long time anyway. A lot of zerg players rush their 3rd base, and end up just using the larva to produce units to defend mid-game terran pressure. Instead of taking the 3rd in a somewhat risky location on Shakuras, Stephano opts to build a macro hatch so that he can increase his production without added risk. I don't think many diamond or lower players realize the full production capabilities of 2base zerg (or 2base zerg with a macro hatch), and rush to take their 3rd where they feel they have to be to compete with 2base terran. From watching Stephano's play, I've realized a lot unnecessary risks I've taken in the mid game.
Answer 2: + Show Spoiler + When Stephano finally took his 3rd, makaprime actually dropped on it and forced the cancel - and that's when I realized that if he had built the expansion earlier, he probably would have lost it anyway.
Answer 3: + Show Spoiler +TheOnlyShaft adds that..."In a situation where you are FORCED to remain on two bases in a ZvT, what is the best case scenario?
- Amazing drone saturation
- Strong production, from macro hatcheries
- Very centralized bases, rather than being spread out everywhere
- And, most importantly of all, you can tech a lot harder, a lot faster"
2) Is skipping overlord drop and/or mutas for earlier hivetech worth it? Marine drops did an absurd amount of damage, what could Stephano have done to manage the pressure more effectively?
Answer 1: + Show Spoiler +NrGMonk argues that "a spire plus 5-8 mutas is at least 700 gas, which is almost 5 infestors. And 5-6 mutas don't even kill a marine drop by themselves."
Thank you all for reading! Please contribute feedback on the structure and content of this thread so I can make necessary adjustments in the future.
- Tang
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I disagree that the opening build doesn't matter too much, if your opponent scouts a speedling expand, they can cut defensive corners early on accordingly to get faster tech or drop an early CC in their main. I think there are clear benefits to hatch first and they outweigh a speedling expand.
Also, I think this thread needs a life story about how the OP plays starcraft.
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Wasn't there exactly this thread like two days ago?
Stop reposting your threads
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On December 13 2011 04:30 CaptainHaz wrote:
I disagree that the opening build doesn't matter too much, if your opponent scouts a speedling expand, they can cut defensive corners early on accordingly to get faster tech or drop an early CC in their main. I think there are clear benefits to hatch first and they outweigh a speedling expand.
Also, I think this thread needs a life story about how the OP plays starcraft.
I meant that for lower-level players. I just mean it's not a monumental difference, I bet if Stephano opened 14/14 every game he'd still be where he is now.
And lol ^^ well it was a hot summer afternoon in Toronto, 1989...
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Great read! And are you Tang, the zerg GM that plays for the University of Waterloo? I definitely learned a lot when you gave that lesson on aggression!
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On December 13 2011 04:46 ProxyKite wrote:
Great read! And are you Tang, the zerg GM that plays for the University of Waterloo? I definitely learned a lot when you gave that lesson on aggression!
Yes sir, thanks a lot for reading 
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Was this the MakaPrime account on KR ladder? Because I was pretty sure that GhostKingPrime is/was using that account - so I'm not sure, it could possibly be Byun that he was playing against. Unless I'm totally mistaken, in which case just ignore me 
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On December 13 2011 05:45 NinjaNitrate wrote:Was this the MakaPrime account on KR ladder? Because I was pretty sure that GhostKingPrime is/was using that account - so I'm not sure, it could possibly be Byun that he was playing against. Unless I'm totally mistaken, in which case just ignore me
I assumed it was MakaPrime but I have no way of verifying who was on his account at the time. Sorry!
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The whole entire timing notes section is completely wrong, and I will explain why:
Timings, under any circumstances, should never be replicated. I am saying this because it is very very rare to find yourself in the exact situation of stephano whereas you cant copy his timings. There are so many branches and deviations of a build that it is just flat out impossible to memorize them all. You just reviewed his timings which is completely useless, as you will never ever find ourself in the EXACT same situation as he was in that game. The only timings anyone should ever use is like 15 hatch, because if you 15hatch then thats too early to have a deviation (but sometimes it is, a protoss can pylon block your hatchery for example) so even then, writing down timings is completely useless.
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STEPHANO DOES THIS LIKE EVERY ZVT.
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and btw, Maka hasn't used user makaprime for a WHILE. thats been byuns account for a while now, maka gave it to him
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United States8476 Posts
Ok, here's my feedback. I know you're trying to copy my thread, but it really isn't the same thing. My thread was pointing out individual things Brown did in the game that were somewhat independent from each other. Your thread is a description of a typical Stephano ZvT with bits of your own advice that you sprinkle in without relating them back to the actual game. Overall, your entire post references little to the actual game. You could have written this about any of Stephano's standard ZvTs and ended up with pretty much the same thing. Anyways, my point is that if you're going to write a game analysis, be ready to give to actually talk about the actual game.
Your spoiler-ed points also don't relate to Stephano's particular ZvT style at all. Things like spreading overlords, spreading creep, denying expansions, and stopping bunker rushes are common tips not specific at all to Stephano style ZvT.
Your description of Stephano's style is little more than a build order with no analysis about the actual style. I'd really like to get into the mind of Stephano and find out why he does what he does. But if that wasn't your intention, to analyze Stephano's style, that's perfectly fine.
Overall, I'm just unsure where you were going with this post. It seems rather all over the place, as if you were trying to write about a lot of stuff without having an actual purpose or direction.
In addition, at the end, you add in your own suggestions to Stephano, which does make you seem quite arrogant as you've stated. You've given 3 suggestions, but haven't convinced me of any of these suggestions. I feel that if you're going to argue with a pro's game plan, especially the tried and true one that Stephano uses, you'd better have an extremely solid argument and be ready to back it up. For example, a spire plus 5-8 mutas is at least 700 gas, which is almost 5 infestors. And 5-6 mutas don't even kill a marine drop by themselves. It's suggestions like these that diminish your credibility.
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On December 13 2011 07:22 NrGmonk wrote:
Ok, here's my feedback. I know you're trying to copy my thread, but it really isn't the same thing. My thread was pointing out individual things Brown did in the game that were somewhat independent from each other. Your thread is a description of a typical Stephano ZvT with bits of your own advice that you sprinkle in without relating them back to the actual game. Overall, your entire post references little to the actual game. You could have written this about any of Stephano's standard ZvTs and ended up with pretty much the same thing. Anyways, my point is that if you're going to write a game analysis, be ready to give to actually talk about the actual game.
Your spoiler-ed points also don't relate to Stephano's particular ZvT style at all. Things like spreading overlords, spreading creep, denying expansions, and stopping bunker rushes are common tips not specific at all to Stephano style ZvT.
Your description of Stephano's style is little more than a build order with no analysis about the actual style. I'd really like to get into the mind of Stephano and find out why he does what he does. But if that wasn't your intention, to analyze Stephano's style, that's perfectly fine.
Overall, I'm just unsure where you were going with this post. It seems rather all over the place, as if you were trying to write about a lot of stuff without having an actual purpose or direction.
In addition, at the end, you add in your own suggestions to Stephano, which does make you seem quite arrogant as you've stated. You've given 3 suggestions, but haven't convinced me of any of these suggestions. I feel that if you're going to argue with a pro's game plan, especially the tried and true one that Stephano uses, you'd better have an extremely solid argument and be ready to back it up. For example, a spire plus 5-8 mutas is at least 700 gas, which is almost 5 infestors. And 5-6 mutas don't even kill a marine drop by themselves. It's suggestions like these that diminish your credibility.
While I did enjoy reading parts of your Brown vs Losira thread, I wasn't basing my analysis of Stephano's play on it. I just wanted a concise and practical analysis that could easily be applied to players new to or still learning this style. I think the structure and information is pretty concise and clear, and if you disagree with the suggestions that's fine but to say it "diminishes my credibility" to say Stephano could benefit from drop play is a bit offensive and unwarranted. I think you're absolutely right in that I need to elaborate on my suggestions more and I completely agree that I need more references to the actual game. Expect an update on that soon, thank you for the advice!
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I think that if you were trying to make this out to be a thread that lower level players could learn from, you could have specified that beforehand. Also, perhaps make it so you analyze why Stephano's actions were either in line with an overall gameplan or not. The way it is now seems kind of haphazard.
On December 13 2011 07:22 NrGmonk wrote:
Ok, here's my feedback. I know you're trying to copy my thread, but it really isn't the same thing. My thread was pointing out individual things Brown did in the game that were somewhat independent from each other. Your thread is a description of a typical Stephano ZvT with bits of your own advice that you sprinkle in without relating them back to the actual game. Overall, your entire post references little to the actual game. You could have written this about any of Stephano's standard ZvTs and ended up with pretty much the same thing. Anyways, my point is that if you're going to write a game analysis, be ready to give to actually talk about the actual game.
Your spoiler-ed points also don't relate to Stephano's particular ZvT style at all. Things like spreading overlords, spreading creep, denying expansions, and stopping bunker rushes are common tips not specific at all to Stephano style ZvT.
Your description of Stephano's style is little more than a build order with no analysis about the actual style. I'd really like to get into the mind of Stephano and find out why he does what he does. But if that wasn't your intention, to analyze Stephano's style, that's perfectly fine.
Overall, I'm just unsure where you were going with this post. It seems rather all over the place, as if you were trying to write about a lot of stuff without having an actual purpose or direction.
In addition, at the end, you add in your own suggestions to Stephano, which does make you seem quite arrogant as you've stated. You've given 3 suggestions, but haven't convinced me of any of these suggestions. I feel that if you're going to argue with a pro's game plan, especially the tried and true one that Stephano uses, you'd better have an extremely solid argument and be ready to back it up. For example, a spire plus 5-8 mutas is at least 700 gas, which is almost 5 infestors. And 5-6 mutas don't even kill a marine drop by themselves. It's suggestions like these that diminish your credibility.
IT'S HATS LIKE THE ONE YOU WEAR THAT DIMINISH YOUR CREDIBILITY
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On December 13 2011 09:16 CaptainHaz wrote:I think that if you were trying to make this out to be a thread that lower level players could learn from, you could have specified that beforehand. Also, perhaps make it so you analyze why Stephano's actions were either in line with an overall gameplan or not. The way it is now seems kind of haphazard. Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:22 NrGmonk wrote:
Ok, here's my feedback. I know you're trying to copy my thread, but it really isn't the same thing. My thread was pointing out individual things Brown did in the game that were somewhat independent from each other. Your thread is a description of a typical Stephano ZvT with bits of your own advice that you sprinkle in without relating them back to the actual game. Overall, your entire post references little to the actual game. You could have written this about any of Stephano's standard ZvTs and ended up with pretty much the same thing. Anyways, my point is that if you're going to write a game analysis, be ready to give to actually talk about the actual game.
Your spoiler-ed points also don't relate to Stephano's particular ZvT style at all. Things like spreading overlords, spreading creep, denying expansions, and stopping bunker rushes are common tips not specific at all to Stephano style ZvT.
Your description of Stephano's style is little more than a build order with no analysis about the actual style. I'd really like to get into the mind of Stephano and find out why he does what he does. But if that wasn't your intention, to analyze Stephano's style, that's perfectly fine.
Overall, I'm just unsure where you were going with this post. It seems rather all over the place, as if you were trying to write about a lot of stuff without having an actual purpose or direction.
In addition, at the end, you add in your own suggestions to Stephano, which does make you seem quite arrogant as you've stated. You've given 3 suggestions, but haven't convinced me of any of these suggestions. I feel that if you're going to argue with a pro's game plan, especially the tried and true one that Stephano uses, you'd better have an extremely solid argument and be ready to back it up. For example, a spire plus 5-8 mutas is at least 700 gas, which is almost 5 infestors. And 5-6 mutas don't even kill a marine drop by themselves. It's suggestions like these that diminish your credibility.
IT'S HATS LIKE THE ONE YOU WEAR THAT DIMINISH YOUR CREDIBILITY
That makes sense, thanks!
Edit: I've included a small note at the beginning
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Fantastic thread with incredibly insightful analysis for all players to learn from? No.
Useful analysis of general timings and probably pretty damn helpful to newer/lower ranked Z players? Yes.
Give him a break. Is Tang contributing the most profoundly awesome [G]uides we've ever seen? No way.. but the reality is that most of you who criticize so heavily don't contribute SHIT. So until you start stepping up to the plate (as NrGmonk does), then feel free to offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.. but relax a bit. The guy has the best intentions, and his post are not without worth.
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This is an awful lot like NrGmonks Brown vs Losira thread...
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On December 13 2011 10:19 OxyFuel wrote:
This is an awful lot like NrGmonks Brown vs Losira thread...
Different players, matchup, structure of post, and content!
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On December 13 2011 10:29 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 10:19 OxyFuel wrote:
This is an awful lot like NrGmonks Brown vs Losira thread... Different players, matchup, structure of post, and content :S
I meant the title reminded me of his post and I feel it is similar. My bad for being unclear. Sorry. Good write up though
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On December 13 2011 11:03 OxyFuel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 10:29 TangSC wrote:On December 13 2011 10:19 OxyFuel wrote:
This is an awful lot like NrGmonks Brown vs Losira thread... Different players, matchup, structure of post, and content :S I meant the title reminded me of his post and I feel it is similar. My bad for being unclear. Sorry. Good write up though
True, not the most creative title lol I'll put more thought into the title in the future.
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Hopefully this post isn't to irrelevent, but if you check out the games from the Blizzard cup, in group A, MVP demolished Stephano when he used this build with a Blue flame hellion/marine timing attack. Completely destroyed it (don't have the video, but thats what the recaps say lol). Anyone who has viewed the game can perhaps comment more, but it might have entirely destroyed this build once people catch on XD
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On December 13 2011 12:48 Niteblade_ wrote:
Hopefully this post isn't to irrelevent, but if you check out the games from the Blizzard cup, in group A, MVP demolished Stephano when he used this build with a Blue flame hellion/marine timing attack. Completely destroyed it (don't have the video, but thats what the recaps say lol). Anyone who has viewed the game can perhaps comment more, but it might have entirely destroyed this build once people catch on XD
Stephano didn't play it out quite right. He needed to let the stuff inside his base before attacking with his lings, and also needed his other spines in the right position.
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Maybe if you guys can find this game and post it, we can analyze it next.
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So your first thread gets closed for self promotion so then you make a second one without all your label b.s. on it. Interesting...
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On December 14 2011 05:37 Moosegills wrote:
So your first thread gets closed for self promotion so then you make a second one without all your label b.s. on it. Interesting...
Yes, I spoke to a TL mod and he recommended I remove my logo from future posts. No big deal ^_^
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On December 13 2011 06:40 Lebzetu wrote:
The whole entire timing notes section is completely wrong, and I will explain why:
Timings, under any circumstances, should never be replicated. I am saying this because it is very very rare to find yourself in the exact situation of stephano whereas you cant copy his timings. There are so many branches and deviations of a build that it is just flat out impossible to memorize them all. You just reviewed his timings which is completely useless, as you will never ever find ourself in the EXACT same situation as he was in that game. The only timings anyone should ever use is like 15 hatch, because if you 15hatch then thats too early to have a deviation (but sometimes it is, a protoss can pylon block your hatchery for example) so even then, writing down timings is completely useless.
I agree that they don't need to be replicated, that's why I included this explanation of the timings:
"It will be important, when trying any style, not to look at timings as strictly set-in-stone. Instead, use them as a reference or an outline in conjunction with your ability to scout and adapt to your opponent. In other words, you don't have to have the exact units at the exact time Stephano does, but if he's doing something like droning hard until the 7 minute mark and then making a lot of lings, you may want to consider the reasoning behind it."
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I don't want to sound rude, but everything you do seems to be aiming for the most attention you can get, helping people doesn't seem to be your main goal. It kinda starts annoying me and it really takes away from what you're saying, because what you say doesn't sound genuine at all. I don't want to discourage you from posting guides or anything but I think you got the wrong intention. To me it seems like you just hit GM on NA (which isn't a very hard thing to do) and now you want everyone to know about it and think you being GM backs up everything you say, while that's not true at all (especially not on NA, no diss intended). People including their names in the headlines and making huge introductions about themselves are just in for the attention and not because they really want to help people. I'm not sure if that really is the case but that's how you come across. Maybe you should take a step back and slow down and not float this forum with low quality analyses.
At least that's my opinion about it and hope you can get somethign out of my feedback. What you've written there could have been written about anything else. The main point in monk's thread about the brown vs losira(?) game is to point out the unique things only brown does. He pointed out a way of playing protoss defensively with ridiculous expand timings and gave reasons why Brown did certain things and how it was possible in the first place. What you got here is just a list of timings that really doesn't say much at all.
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On December 15 2011 00:36 decaf wrote:
I don't want to sound rude, but everything you do seems to be aiming for the most attention you can get, helping people doesn't seem to be your main goal. It kinda starts annoying me and it really takes away from what you're saying, because what you say doesn't sound genuine at all. I don't want to discourage you from posting guides or anything but I think you got the wrong intention. To me it seems like you just hit GM on NA (which isn't a very hard thing to do) and now you want everyone to know about it and think you being GM backs up everything you say, while that's not true at all (especially not on NA, no diss intended). People including their names in the headlines and making huge introductions about themselves are just in for the attention and not because they really want to help people. I'm not sure if that really is the case but that's how you come across. Maybe you should take a step back and slow down and not float this forum with low quality analyses.
At least that's my opinion about it and hope you can get somethign out of my feedback. What you've written there could have been written about anything else. The main point in monk's thread about the brown vs losira(?) game is to point out the unique things only brown does. He pointed out a way of playing protoss defensively with ridiculous expand timings and gave reasons why Brown did certain things and how it was possible in the first place. What you got here is just a list of timings that really doesn't say much at all.
The thread contains both timing and execution considerations that players looking to improve can apply to their games, as well as analysis of the important tools and stylistic choices that have given Stephano such success. Further, this is not a GUIDE thread, it's a DISCUSSION thread - which means I've included the relevant notes and things I took away from the game so others can discuss and hopefully we all benefit. If you want to post criticism, I recommend watching the game and making intelligent/helpful suggestions that others will benefit from rather than unprofessional/personal insults.
EDIT: You're the only one who has mentioned that I've been GM, and there's no links or promotion in the thread. If you don't think my threads are a credible source of information because reaching GM on NA "isn't a very hard thing to do" then that's your opinion. However to imply - after the countless hours I've put into creating and editing guides, answering questions, and streaming tutorials - that all I care about is attention is both incorrect and blatantly rude.
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On December 15 2011 00:56 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:36 decaf wrote:
I don't want to sound rude, but everything you do seems to be aiming for the most attention you can get, helping people doesn't seem to be your main goal. It kinda starts annoying me and it really takes away from what you're saying, because what you say doesn't sound genuine at all. I don't want to discourage you from posting guides or anything but I think you got the wrong intention. To me it seems like you just hit GM on NA (which isn't a very hard thing to do) and now you want everyone to know about it and think you being GM backs up everything you say, while that's not true at all (especially not on NA, no diss intended). People including their names in the headlines and making huge introductions about themselves are just in for the attention and not because they really want to help people. I'm not sure if that really is the case but that's how you come across. Maybe you should take a step back and slow down and not float this forum with low quality analyses.
At least that's my opinion about it and hope you can get somethign out of my feedback. What you've written there could have been written about anything else. The main point in monk's thread about the brown vs losira(?) game is to point out the unique things only brown does. He pointed out a way of playing protoss defensively with ridiculous expand timings and gave reasons why Brown did certain things and how it was possible in the first place. What you got here is just a list of timings that really doesn't say much at all. The thread contains both timing and execution considerations that players looking to improve can apply to their games, as well as analysis of the important tools and stylistic choices that have given Stephano such success. If you actually took the time to read the thread instead of skimming over the timings and concluding in seconds that the information isn't useful, you'd certainly see that it is not a "low quality analysis", it is invaluable information that I have personally included in my play and reaped significant benefits. Further, this is not a GUIDE thread, it's a DISCUSSION thread - which means I include the relevant notes and things I took away from the game to help others learn and discuss. If you want to post criticism, I recommend actually reading the thread, watching the game, and making intelligent/helpful suggestions that others will benefit from rather than unprofessional/personal insults. EDIT: You're the only one who has mentioned that I've been GM. If you don't think my threads are a credible source of information because reaching GM on NA "isn't a very hard thing to do" then that's your opinion. However to imply - after the countless hours I've put into creating and editing guides, answering questions, and streaming tutorials - that all I care about is attention is both incorrect and blatantly rude.
Sure is a rude statement to make, but considering one of your [G] or [D] has already been closed with a statement like: "cut the self-promotion, please" by a mod I don't think it's very far-fetched. I only mentioned you being GM because you do so in the titles when you release guides which I find extremely prepotent (but there's many people shamelessly slapping their names onto things which they supposedly "invented"). And for the record I did read the OP, but there's not very much to get out of it since it simply feels like there's missing something. You mention a lot of general things which don't really forward the discussion and then you leave everything unclear because you don't really draw any conclusions from it.
I simply don't find it very useful and to me it seems to be just an opportunity for you to get your name out in some way. That's just how I feel about it and maybe it's just me. Not trying to discourage you, in fact I hope you can get somethign out of my feedback.
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On December 15 2011 01:56 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:56 TangSC wrote:On December 15 2011 00:36 decaf wrote:
I don't want to sound rude, but everything you do seems to be aiming for the most attention you can get, helping people doesn't seem to be your main goal. It kinda starts annoying me and it really takes away from what you're saying, because what you say doesn't sound genuine at all. I don't want to discourage you from posting guides or anything but I think you got the wrong intention. To me it seems like you just hit GM on NA (which isn't a very hard thing to do) and now you want everyone to know about it and think you being GM backs up everything you say, while that's not true at all (especially not on NA, no diss intended). People including their names in the headlines and making huge introductions about themselves are just in for the attention and not because they really want to help people. I'm not sure if that really is the case but that's how you come across. Maybe you should take a step back and slow down and not float this forum with low quality analyses.
At least that's my opinion about it and hope you can get somethign out of my feedback. What you've written there could have been written about anything else. The main point in monk's thread about the brown vs losira(?) game is to point out the unique things only brown does. He pointed out a way of playing protoss defensively with ridiculous expand timings and gave reasons why Brown did certain things and how it was possible in the first place. What you got here is just a list of timings that really doesn't say much at all. The thread contains both timing and execution considerations that players looking to improve can apply to their games, as well as analysis of the important tools and stylistic choices that have given Stephano such success. If you actually took the time to read the thread instead of skimming over the timings and concluding in seconds that the information isn't useful, you'd certainly see that it is not a "low quality analysis", it is invaluable information that I have personally included in my play and reaped significant benefits. Further, this is not a GUIDE thread, it's a DISCUSSION thread - which means I include the relevant notes and things I took away from the game to help others learn and discuss. If you want to post criticism, I recommend actually reading the thread, watching the game, and making intelligent/helpful suggestions that others will benefit from rather than unprofessional/personal insults. EDIT: You're the only one who has mentioned that I've been GM. If you don't think my threads are a credible source of information because reaching GM on NA "isn't a very hard thing to do" then that's your opinion. However to imply - after the countless hours I've put into creating and editing guides, answering questions, and streaming tutorials - that all I care about is attention is both incorrect and blatantly rude. Sure is a rude statement to make, but considering one of your [G] or [D] has already been closed with a statement like: "cut the self-promotion, please" by a mod I don't think it's very far-fetched. I only mentioned you being GM because you do so in the titles when you release guides which I find extremely prepotent (but there's many people shamelessly slapping their names onto things which they supposedly "invented"). And for the record I did read the OP, but there's not very much to get out of it since it simply feels like there's missing something. You mention a lot of general things which don't really forward the discussion and then you leave everything unclear because you don't really draw any conclusions from it. I simply don't find it very useful and to me it seems to be just an opportunity for you to get your name out in some way. That's just how I feel about it and maybe it's just me. Not trying to discourage you, in fact I hope you can get somethign out of my feedback.
Just because I promote doesn't mean I don't contribute by giving back to the community. I do mention crucial timings but I also supply potential discussion questions, tips, and suggestions as a way of "forwarding the discussion".
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Tang, you should have included Naniwa in the title of this thread. If so, millions of dullards would open "discussion" with pitchforks and fanboy hats. That would be my only tip for your next discussion/guide.
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On December 15 2011 06:57 IPA wrote:
Tang, you should have included Naniwa in the title of this thread. If so, millions of dullards would open "discussion" with pitchforks and fanboy hats. That would be my only tip for your next discussion/guide.
Haha as soon as I run into naniwa on ladder and beat him with my 8minute overlord drop, you'll see a thread!
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Why are there so many criticisms of this thread? It seems like perfectly fine information. If you don't find it useful, go somewhere else.
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People's problem with this thread is that it purports to be "lessons learned" from analyzing Stephano's ZvT style in a game against MakaPrime, but it's actually Tang writing about how Tang likes to play infestor+ling vs T.
For example, Stephano opens hatch first. About this, Tang writes:
Early Timings -Contrary to popular belief, the exact build you decide to open with is not THAT significant. Just because Stephano and many pros open with a hatch first doesn’t mean you should do it blindly too. Don’t play risky and do a hatch first praying your opponent opens 1rax and not 2rax, you’ll find a speedling expand will perform much the same way.
So the lesson Tang learned from Stephano's hatch first opening was that hatch first makes no difference. That makes sense.
He then goes on to talk a little bit about general ZvT tips--things like "pull enough drones to defend without losing a lot," "spread creep," "be active with your zerglings," "spread overlords for vision," and "delay or deny expansions." These are the new ideas that Tang learned from Stephano that inspired the post? I don't play Zerg or Terran and I knew all that stuff. One suspects that these are just Tang's general tips, and he wanted to start a new thread where he could share them.
And those suspicions are immediately confirmed with Tang finishes his post with a list of general ZvT tips that weren't even featured in the replay he picked.
This thread isn't analysis of a pro game to glean some new, useful information. This is a general advice thread with only obvious advice. And given the poster's TL history, it feels like the goal of the post was self-promotion.
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well ofc the motivation may be self-promotion, however imho a lot of tangs posts are entertaining and worth to read. While the builds/strategies might not be suitable in super-pro level play, there is always useful information/builds/timings or at least a link to some interesting game/vod.
98% of the posts in the strat forum are much much worse, low-level stuff. i'd like to see more of these (at least semi-high level) discussions/guides instead of "naniwa"-threads and the usual "9 vs 10 ovie" stuff.
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On December 15 2011 08:48 kcdc wrote:People's problem with this thread is that it purports to be "lessons learned" from analyzing Stephano's ZvT style in a game against MakaPrime, but it's actually Tang writing about how Tang likes to play infestor+ling vs T. For example, Stephano opens hatch first. About this, Tang writes: Show nested quote +Early Timings -Contrary to popular belief, the exact build you decide to open with is not THAT significant. Just because Stephano and many pros open with a hatch first doesn’t mean you should do it blindly too. Don’t play risky and do a hatch first praying your opponent opens 1rax and not 2rax, you’ll find a speedling expand will perform much the same way. So the lesson Tang learned from Stephano's hatch first opening was that hatch first makes no difference. That makes sense. He then goes on to talk a little bit about general ZvT tips--things like "pull enough drones to defend without losing a lot," "spread creep," "be active with your zerglings," "spread overlords for vision," and "delay or deny expansions." These are the new ideas that Tang learned from Stephano that inspired the post? I don't play Zerg or Terran and I knew all that stuff. One suspects that these are just Tang's general tips, and he wanted to start a new thread where he could share them. And those suspicions are immediately confirmed with Tang finishes his post with a list of general ZvT tips that weren't even featured in the replay he picked. This thread isn't analysis of a pro game to glean some new, useful information. This is a general advice thread with only obvious advice. And given the poster's TL history, it feels like the goal of the post was self-promotion.
I included the section on early timings because I know some players struggle opening the macro builds they see pros do, so I wanted to mention that 14g/14p is safer and performs much the same way. The tips at the end aren't really general, as I give game-reference to argue why such adaptations may be beneficial...it's really just food for thought, as this is a discussion thread I didn't expect so much hostility over a few suggestions. I do agree that in my initial post I included a few too many personal suggestions and I've edited it to take a more focused look at Stephano's actions.
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On December 15 2011 08:48 kcdc wrote:People's problem with this thread is that it purports to be "lessons learned" from analyzing Stephano's ZvT style in a game against MakaPrime, but it's actually Tang writing about how Tang likes to play infestor+ling vs T. For example, Stephano opens hatch first. About this, Tang writes: Show nested quote +Early Timings -Contrary to popular belief, the exact build you decide to open with is not THAT significant. Just because Stephano and many pros open with a hatch first doesn’t mean you should do it blindly too. Don’t play risky and do a hatch first praying your opponent opens 1rax and not 2rax, you’ll find a speedling expand will perform much the same way. So the lesson Tang learned from Stephano's hatch first opening was that hatch first makes no difference. That makes sense. He then goes on to talk a little bit about general ZvT tips--things like "pull enough drones to defend without losing a lot," "spread creep," "be active with your zerglings," "spread overlords for vision," and "delay or deny expansions." These are the new ideas that Tang learned from Stephano that inspired the post? I don't play Zerg or Terran and I knew all that stuff. One suspects that these are just Tang's general tips, and he wanted to start a new thread where he could share them. And those suspicions are immediately confirmed with Tang finishes his post with a list of general ZvT tips that weren't even featured in the replay he picked. This thread isn't analysis of a pro game to glean some new, useful information. This is a general advice thread with only obvious advice. And given the poster's TL history, it feels like the goal of the post was self-promotion.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 15 2011 09:38 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:48 kcdc wrote:People's problem with this thread is that it purports to be "lessons learned" from analyzing Stephano's ZvT style in a game against MakaPrime, but it's actually Tang writing about how Tang likes to play infestor+ling vs T. For example, Stephano opens hatch first. About this, Tang writes: Early Timings -Contrary to popular belief, the exact build you decide to open with is not THAT significant. Just because Stephano and many pros open with a hatch first doesn’t mean you should do it blindly too. Don’t play risky and do a hatch first praying your opponent opens 1rax and not 2rax, you’ll find a speedling expand will perform much the same way. So the lesson Tang learned from Stephano's hatch first opening was that hatch first makes no difference. That makes sense. He then goes on to talk a little bit about general ZvT tips--things like "pull enough drones to defend without losing a lot," "spread creep," "be active with your zerglings," "spread overlords for vision," and "delay or deny expansions." These are the new ideas that Tang learned from Stephano that inspired the post? I don't play Zerg or Terran and I knew all that stuff. One suspects that these are just Tang's general tips, and he wanted to start a new thread where he could share them. And those suspicions are immediately confirmed with Tang finishes his post with a list of general ZvT tips that weren't even featured in the replay he picked. This thread isn't analysis of a pro game to glean some new, useful information. This is a general advice thread with only obvious advice. And given the poster's TL history, it feels like the goal of the post was self-promotion. I couldn't have said it better myself.
I was trying to bring up very similar points with my previous posts, but trying to frame them in a different light.
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On December 15 2011 09:51 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 09:38 Moosegills wrote:On December 15 2011 08:48 kcdc wrote:People's problem with this thread is that it purports to be "lessons learned" from analyzing Stephano's ZvT style in a game against MakaPrime, but it's actually Tang writing about how Tang likes to play infestor+ling vs T. For example, Stephano opens hatch first. About this, Tang writes: Early Timings -Contrary to popular belief, the exact build you decide to open with is not THAT significant. Just because Stephano and many pros open with a hatch first doesn’t mean you should do it blindly too. Don’t play risky and do a hatch first praying your opponent opens 1rax and not 2rax, you’ll find a speedling expand will perform much the same way. So the lesson Tang learned from Stephano's hatch first opening was that hatch first makes no difference. That makes sense. He then goes on to talk a little bit about general ZvT tips--things like "pull enough drones to defend without losing a lot," "spread creep," "be active with your zerglings," "spread overlords for vision," and "delay or deny expansions." These are the new ideas that Tang learned from Stephano that inspired the post? I don't play Zerg or Terran and I knew all that stuff. One suspects that these are just Tang's general tips, and he wanted to start a new thread where he could share them. And those suspicions are immediately confirmed with Tang finishes his post with a list of general ZvT tips that weren't even featured in the replay he picked. This thread isn't analysis of a pro game to glean some new, useful information. This is a general advice thread with only obvious advice. And given the poster's TL history, it feels like the goal of the post was self-promotion. I couldn't have said it better myself. I was trying to bring up very similar points with my previous posts, but trying to frame them in a different light.
I mean I don't know tang personally, but to me it seems pretty obvious what he is trying to sell in some of his posts. (especially the previous version of this thread). I'm just really surprised more blue posters haven't directly called him out before.
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On December 15 2011 07:00 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:57 IPA wrote:
Tang, you should have included Naniwa in the title of this thread. If so, millions of dullards would open "discussion" with pitchforks and fanboy hats. That would be my only tip for your next discussion/guide. Haha as soon as I run into naniwa on ladder and beat him with my 8minute overlord drop, you'll see a thread!
Oh I'm sure we will. With a giant logo and a "Who is Tang" at the beginning, please.
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On December 15 2011 08:48 kcdc wrote:People's problem with this thread is that it purports to be "lessons learned" from analyzing Stephano's ZvT style in a game against MakaPrime, but it's actually Tang writing about how Tang likes to play infestor+ling vs T. For example, Stephano opens hatch first. About this, Tang writes: Show nested quote +Early Timings -Contrary to popular belief, the exact build you decide to open with is not THAT significant. Just because Stephano and many pros open with a hatch first doesn’t mean you should do it blindly too. Don’t play risky and do a hatch first praying your opponent opens 1rax and not 2rax, you’ll find a speedling expand will perform much the same way. So the lesson Tang learned from Stephano's hatch first opening was that hatch first makes no difference. That makes sense. He then goes on to talk a little bit about general ZvT tips--things like "pull enough drones to defend without losing a lot," "spread creep," "be active with your zerglings," "spread overlords for vision," and "delay or deny expansions." These are the new ideas that Tang learned from Stephano that inspired the post? I don't play Zerg or Terran and I knew all that stuff. One suspects that these are just Tang's general tips, and he wanted to start a new thread where he could share them. And those suspicions are immediately confirmed with Tang finishes his post with a list of general ZvT tips that weren't even featured in the replay he picked. This thread isn't analysis of a pro game to glean some new, useful information. This is a general advice thread with only obvious advice. And given the poster's TL history, it feels like the goal of the post was self-promotion.
I'm glad there's people on TL like you who can say what needs to be said without coming off as a douche (and/or getting banned).
Honestly, if I tried to write a post in response to one of Tang's threads I would probably be perma-banned because I'm very honest about my opinion. I mean on the surface you can obviously tell he is trying to promote himself at every chance he gets, but when you look deeper you'll notice other things like multiple accounts with 1-5 posts praising all of his guides (hmm...), him bumping his threads in any way possible, or even arrogant comments like "oh, I beat stephano so I'm allowed to criticize him  " etc. Ugh... sorry tang, I appreciate you contributing to the community but your motivations just feel so selfish.
Anyways... I agree that this thread doesn't really talk so much about stephano's style and it does, quite frankly, come off as arrogant with you suggesting how stephano should play better at the end.
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On December 15 2011 11:12 justindab0mb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:48 kcdc wrote:People's problem with this thread is that it purports to be "lessons learned" from analyzing Stephano's ZvT style in a game against MakaPrime, but it's actually Tang writing about how Tang likes to play infestor+ling vs T. For example, Stephano opens hatch first. About this, Tang writes: Early Timings -Contrary to popular belief, the exact build you decide to open with is not THAT significant. Just because Stephano and many pros open with a hatch first doesn’t mean you should do it blindly too. Don’t play risky and do a hatch first praying your opponent opens 1rax and not 2rax, you’ll find a speedling expand will perform much the same way. So the lesson Tang learned from Stephano's hatch first opening was that hatch first makes no difference. That makes sense. He then goes on to talk a little bit about general ZvT tips--things like "pull enough drones to defend without losing a lot," "spread creep," "be active with your zerglings," "spread overlords for vision," and "delay or deny expansions." These are the new ideas that Tang learned from Stephano that inspired the post? I don't play Zerg or Terran and I knew all that stuff. One suspects that these are just Tang's general tips, and he wanted to start a new thread where he could share them. And those suspicions are immediately confirmed with Tang finishes his post with a list of general ZvT tips that weren't even featured in the replay he picked. This thread isn't analysis of a pro game to glean some new, useful information. This is a general advice thread with only obvious advice. And given the poster's TL history, it feels like the goal of the post was self-promotion. I'm glad there's people on TL like you who can say what needs to be said without coming off as a douche (and/or getting banned). Honestly, if I tried to write a post in response to one of Tang's threads I would probably be perma-banned because I'm very honest about my opinion. I mean on the surface you can obviously tell he is trying to promote himself at every chance he gets, but when you look deeper you'll notice other things like multiple accounts with 1-5 posts praising all of his guides (hmm...), him bumping his threads in any way possible, or even arrogant comments like "oh, I beat stephano so I'm allowed to criticize him " etc. Ugh... sorry tang, I appreciate you contributing to the community but your motivations just feel so selfish. Anyways... I agree that this thread doesn't really talk so much about stephano's style and it does, quite frankly, come off as arrogant with you suggesting how stephano should play better at the end.
People like him?TT I'm getting no credit for stepping up and saying out loud what everyone's thinking? I guess that's because I ain't got blue poster status
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On December 16 2011 00:41 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:12 justindab0mb wrote:On December 15 2011 08:48 kcdc wrote:People's problem with this thread is that it purports to be "lessons learned" from analyzing Stephano's ZvT style in a game against MakaPrime, but it's actually Tang writing about how Tang likes to play infestor+ling vs T. For example, Stephano opens hatch first. About this, Tang writes: Early Timings -Contrary to popular belief, the exact build you decide to open with is not THAT significant. Just because Stephano and many pros open with a hatch first doesn’t mean you should do it blindly too. Don’t play risky and do a hatch first praying your opponent opens 1rax and not 2rax, you’ll find a speedling expand will perform much the same way. So the lesson Tang learned from Stephano's hatch first opening was that hatch first makes no difference. That makes sense. He then goes on to talk a little bit about general ZvT tips--things like "pull enough drones to defend without losing a lot," "spread creep," "be active with your zerglings," "spread overlords for vision," and "delay or deny expansions." These are the new ideas that Tang learned from Stephano that inspired the post? I don't play Zerg or Terran and I knew all that stuff. One suspects that these are just Tang's general tips, and he wanted to start a new thread where he could share them. And those suspicions are immediately confirmed with Tang finishes his post with a list of general ZvT tips that weren't even featured in the replay he picked. This thread isn't analysis of a pro game to glean some new, useful information. This is a general advice thread with only obvious advice. And given the poster's TL history, it feels like the goal of the post was self-promotion. I'm glad there's people on TL like you who can say what needs to be said without coming off as a douche (and/or getting banned). Honestly, if I tried to write a post in response to one of Tang's threads I would probably be perma-banned because I'm very honest about my opinion. I mean on the surface you can obviously tell he is trying to promote himself at every chance he gets, but when you look deeper you'll notice other things like multiple accounts with 1-5 posts praising all of his guides (hmm...), him bumping his threads in any way possible, or even arrogant comments like "oh, I beat stephano so I'm allowed to criticize him " etc. Ugh... sorry tang, I appreciate you contributing to the community but your motivations just feel so selfish. Anyways... I agree that this thread doesn't really talk so much about stephano's style and it does, quite frankly, come off as arrogant with you suggesting how stephano should play better at the end. People like him?TT I'm getting no credit for stepping up and saying out loud what everyone's thinking? I guess that's because I ain't got blue poster status
If it means anything I'm creditting you and share your stance. I just never saw the need to ever bump one of his threads with me disagreeing with him in a major way, because it would give him more publicity while giving the people who need help or made a great post will be forgotten due to the way the forum works ( more drama posts give your thread more replies and views because it is up higher ).
The mods are doing what they can ( they did ban him for 2 days because he was just promoting his thread in a help thread instead of actually giving help ) but technically if he makes posts he isn't breaking any rules.
The best way to deal with him is to just ignore him completely and not put any posts on his threads if you disagree with his views. There's tons of help threads out there that genuinely need help but suffer the fate of going unnoticed while drama threads with everyone shitting on the OP stay up high ( see the Grandmaster by 6 pooling thread ).
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I'm glad there's people on TL like you who can say what needs to be said without coming off as a douche (and/or getting banned).
I actually thought my comment was a little douchey, but I gave in to my urge to say what I thought after decaf's exchange (I thought decaf was right). I don't want to bash Tang. He seems like a nice enough kid that loves SC2 and is pretty good at it. He just wants people to know that he's pretty good at SC2 which can rub people the wrong way, but it's not a cardinal sin. It's probably the norm at a certain age range.
Honestly, I think if this thread were titled and packaged slightly differently, nobody would have had a problem with it. It would have just been a generic "basic advice" guide with some notes about lair timings.
In the spirit of trying to be more helpful:
Tang, if you do another one of these pro-game analysis posts, try to think about what the player does *differently* from normal play, the reasoning behind that difference, and why it works. In this game, the differences from normal ZvT might have been a delayed lair and completely skipping muta tech. Instead of just mentioning the lair timing, tell us what advantage Stephano gains from that timing. And you seemed to take the wrong approach on the muta issue--Stephano made a strategic decision not to get mutas at all in order to get something else (more infestors? faster hive? faster upgrades?). Tell us about that decision and what the considerations are. Don't analyze a game where a player specifically decides to skip mutas and tell us that mutas would have been a nice addition as if the player just forgot.
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interesting read, i am working on this using this style atm and it seems to be working really well, i really appreciate the time and effort the OP put into this, thanks so much!
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On December 16 2011 01:45 gbeads wrote:
interesting read, i am working on this using this style atm and it seems to be working really well, i really appreciate the time and effort the OP put into this, thanks so much!
you have 6 posts. nice try Tang
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On December 16 2011 00:41 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:12 justindab0mb wrote:On December 15 2011 08:48 kcdc wrote:People's problem with this thread is that it purports to be "lessons learned" from analyzing Stephano's ZvT style in a game against MakaPrime, but it's actually Tang writing about how Tang likes to play infestor+ling vs T. For example, Stephano opens hatch first. About this, Tang writes: Early Timings -Contrary to popular belief, the exact build you decide to open with is not THAT significant. Just because Stephano and many pros open with a hatch first doesn’t mean you should do it blindly too. Don’t play risky and do a hatch first praying your opponent opens 1rax and not 2rax, you’ll find a speedling expand will perform much the same way. So the lesson Tang learned from Stephano's hatch first opening was that hatch first makes no difference. That makes sense. He then goes on to talk a little bit about general ZvT tips--things like "pull enough drones to defend without losing a lot," "spread creep," "be active with your zerglings," "spread overlords for vision," and "delay or deny expansions." These are the new ideas that Tang learned from Stephano that inspired the post? I don't play Zerg or Terran and I knew all that stuff. One suspects that these are just Tang's general tips, and he wanted to start a new thread where he could share them. And those suspicions are immediately confirmed with Tang finishes his post with a list of general ZvT tips that weren't even featured in the replay he picked. This thread isn't analysis of a pro game to glean some new, useful information. This is a general advice thread with only obvious advice. And given the poster's TL history, it feels like the goal of the post was self-promotion. I'm glad there's people on TL like you who can say what needs to be said without coming off as a douche (and/or getting banned). Honestly, if I tried to write a post in response to one of Tang's threads I would probably be perma-banned because I'm very honest about my opinion. I mean on the surface you can obviously tell he is trying to promote himself at every chance he gets, but when you look deeper you'll notice other things like multiple accounts with 1-5 posts praising all of his guides (hmm...), him bumping his threads in any way possible, or even arrogant comments like "oh, I beat stephano so I'm allowed to criticize him " etc. Ugh... sorry tang, I appreciate you contributing to the community but your motivations just feel so selfish. Anyways... I agree that this thread doesn't really talk so much about stephano's style and it does, quite frankly, come off as arrogant with you suggesting how stephano should play better at the end. People like him?TT I'm getting no credit for stepping up and saying out loud what everyone's thinking? I guess that's because I ain't got blue poster status
Just using him as an example, I can't give credit to every single person who steps up and says what everyone's thinking. Jeez
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I have to say, I've learned a lot from this thread, and others like it by Tang. He may promote himself, but that's cool, because it helps me find his content, which is beneficial, to at least one person. Should anyone really be criticizing him, if that's the case? I mean, he may not write guides for the masses... but that's okay, too.
Admittedly, the title and the content don't necessarily match, but I found his conceptualization of benchmarks to be very strong. In fact, it was an issue I was having with his build, the Three Barrel Bust, I simply found myself not quite doing things right, or not continuing the build properly after a bunker rush because I felt the numbers were set in stone. I feel like that might be something a lot of players, especially lower tier, might have trouble with.
I also feel like the way he explained the benchmark system -- critical gametimes, whenever they might be, what's going on NOW. Then you know when you reach the general area in your game, you should be heading towards this path. If you're not, there should be a reason WHY. This is all really good meta-game stuff, conceptual information, rather than "make 2 infestors, and don't lose them, and drop infested terran everywhere."
I was already experimenting with Stephano's style. I'm familiar with how Stephano does things. I should probably mention that, as I would definitely say, you won't learn Stephano's style by reading this guide. But in my specific set of circumstances, it was a big glowing sign saying, "hey fucktard [that'd be me], this is what you're doing wrong, and here's how you can fix some of your issues."
I could go more into the blow-by-blows of how this post helped me, but I don't owe anyone that much of an explanation. Get off Tang's ass, please.
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Yeah I have to agree with Shaft. To all you guys that spent your walls of text criticizing Tang, if instead you had spent that time trying to help us newer and lower level players learn something, you might have actually contributed something to this thread instead of just trolling it.
Tang may self promote, but who cares. Plenty of casters/pros shamelessly self promote in replays and interviews all the time. Its how you get your name out there. What matters is that you're trying to do something helpful along with it. Which I believe Tang was trying to help out the newer players here. Especially ones that have read his guides like Shaft and myself.
For me personally, the point about thinking of creep spread as your map vision, was great. I needed to hear that. I am terrible with my Platinum level creep spread. I normally think of it as just needed in the front of my base so I can't get contained in ZvT. But that's obviously wrong. So will be a good point for me to work on.
Thanks Tang. Keep up the good work. H8rs gonna h8.
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Sigh....why bash the "haters" when the thread is still open -___-
Tang is only banned for self-promotion, and other than that, he has done plenty good things, stop accusing people for bashing other people for no reason before you read every thing -__-
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On December 13 2011 08:22 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:22 NrGmonk wrote:
Ok, here's my feedback. I know you're trying to copy my thread, but it really isn't the same thing. My thread was pointing out individual things Brown did in the game that were somewhat independent from each other. Your thread is a description of a typical Stephano ZvT with bits of your own advice that you sprinkle in without relating them back to the actual game. Overall, your entire post references little to the actual game. You could have written this about any of Stephano's standard ZvTs and ended up with pretty much the same thing. Anyways, my point is that if you're going to write a game analysis, be ready to give to actually talk about the actual game.
Your spoiler-ed points also don't relate to Stephano's particular ZvT style at all. Things like spreading overlords, spreading creep, denying expansions, and stopping bunker rushes are common tips not specific at all to Stephano style ZvT.
Your description of Stephano's style is little more than a build order with no analysis about the actual style. I'd really like to get into the mind of Stephano and find out why he does what he does. But if that wasn't your intention, to analyze Stephano's style, that's perfectly fine.
Overall, I'm just unsure where you were going with this post. It seems rather all over the place, as if you were trying to write about a lot of stuff without having an actual purpose or direction.
In addition, at the end, you add in your own suggestions to Stephano, which does make you seem quite arrogant as you've stated. You've given 3 suggestions, but haven't convinced me of any of these suggestions. I feel that if you're going to argue with a pro's game plan, especially the tried and true one that Stephano uses, you'd better have an extremely solid argument and be ready to back it up. For example, a spire plus 5-8 mutas is at least 700 gas, which is almost 5 infestors. And 5-6 mutas don't even kill a marine drop by themselves. It's suggestions like these that diminish your credibility.
While I did enjoy reading parts of your Brown vs Losira thread, I wasn't basing my analysis of Stephano's play on it. Instead, I wanted a concise and practical analysis that could easily be applied to players new to or still learning this style. I think the structure and information is pretty concise and clear, and if you disagree with the suggestions that's fine but to say it "diminishes my credibility" to say Stephano could benefit from drop play is a bit offensive and unwarranted. I think you're absolutely right in that I need to elaborate on my suggestions more and I completely agree that I need more references to the actual game. Expect an update on that soon, thank you for the advice! Edit: Also, since I've beat Stephano, I should be allowed to give him a suggestion
i entirely disagree with this post. i've beaten many pros but that doesn't mean I am better than them at all and it also doesn't mean that I can or should tell them how they should play differently. similarly, just because you've beaten stephano doesn't mean you have the right to give him suggestions on how to play. perhaps you cheesed him and he was trying something new, or perhaps he was simply not trying (extremely likely, since I assume you played him on NA ladder and not in a tournament/LAN).
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On December 17 2011 00:19 simian_sc wrote:
Yeah I have to agree with Shaft. To all you guys that spent your walls of text criticizing Tang, if instead you had spent that time trying to help us newer and lower level players learn something, you might have actually contributed something to this thread instead of just trolling it.
Tang may self promote, but who cares. Plenty of casters/pros shamelessly self promote in replays and interviews all the time. Its how you get your name out there. What matters is that you're trying to do something helpful along with it. Which I believe Tang was trying to help out the newer players here. Especially ones that have read his guides like Shaft and myself.
For me personally, the point about thinking of creep spread as your map vision, was great. I needed to hear that. I am terrible with my Platinum level creep spread. I normally think of it as just needed in the front of my base so I can't get contained in ZvT. But that's obviously wrong. So will be a good point for me to work on.
Thanks Tang. Keep up the good work. H8rs gonna h8.
I hope you now that everyone here with a blue post has done more to help people in the strategy forums than Tang ever will.
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On December 17 2011 01:22 Malstriks wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:22 TangSC wrote:On December 13 2011 07:22 NrGmonk wrote:
Ok, here's my feedback. I know you're trying to copy my thread, but it really isn't the same thing. My thread was pointing out individual things Brown did in the game that were somewhat independent from each other. Your thread is a description of a typical Stephano ZvT with bits of your own advice that you sprinkle in without relating them back to the actual game. Overall, your entire post references little to the actual game. You could have written this about any of Stephano's standard ZvTs and ended up with pretty much the same thing. Anyways, my point is that if you're going to write a game analysis, be ready to give to actually talk about the actual game.
Your spoiler-ed points also don't relate to Stephano's particular ZvT style at all. Things like spreading overlords, spreading creep, denying expansions, and stopping bunker rushes are common tips not specific at all to Stephano style ZvT.
Your description of Stephano's style is little more than a build order with no analysis about the actual style. I'd really like to get into the mind of Stephano and find out why he does what he does. But if that wasn't your intention, to analyze Stephano's style, that's perfectly fine.
Overall, I'm just unsure where you were going with this post. It seems rather all over the place, as if you were trying to write about a lot of stuff without having an actual purpose or direction.
In addition, at the end, you add in your own suggestions to Stephano, which does make you seem quite arrogant as you've stated. You've given 3 suggestions, but haven't convinced me of any of these suggestions. I feel that if you're going to argue with a pro's game plan, especially the tried and true one that Stephano uses, you'd better have an extremely solid argument and be ready to back it up. For example, a spire plus 5-8 mutas is at least 700 gas, which is almost 5 infestors. And 5-6 mutas don't even kill a marine drop by themselves. It's suggestions like these that diminish your credibility.
While I did enjoy reading parts of your Brown vs Losira thread, I wasn't basing my analysis of Stephano's play on it. Instead, I wanted a concise and practical analysis that could easily be applied to players new to or still learning this style. I think the structure and information is pretty concise and clear, and if you disagree with the suggestions that's fine but to say it "diminishes my credibility" to say Stephano could benefit from drop play is a bit offensive and unwarranted. I think you're absolutely right in that I need to elaborate on my suggestions more and I completely agree that I need more references to the actual game. Expect an update on that soon, thank you for the advice! Edit: Also, since I've beat Stephano, I should be allowed to give him a suggestion i entirely disagree with this post. i've beaten many pros but that doesn't mean I am better than them at all and it also doesn't mean that I can or should tell them how they should play differently. similarly, just because you've beaten stephano doesn't mean you have the right to give him suggestions on how to play. perhaps you cheesed him and he was trying something new, or perhaps he was simply not trying (extremely likely, since I assume you played him on NA ladder and not in a tournament/LAN).
Stephano is 10x better than I am lol I'm jk. The suggestions are merely food for thought, something to think about and discuss - I wasn't saying Stephano needs to do these things to improve, I'm saying that in my opinion they might be worth-while investments and inviting others to agree, disagree, and make suggestions of their own.
EDIT: Speaking of which I'd love to hear other peoples' opinions of using drops mid/late game against terran. I've been doing it a lot against protoss and it's been great but I almost never do ling or ling/bane drops against T.
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On December 17 2011 01:51 Odal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 00:19 simian_sc wrote:
Yeah I have to agree with Shaft. To all you guys that spent your walls of text criticizing Tang, if instead you had spent that time trying to help us newer and lower level players learn something, you might have actually contributed something to this thread instead of just trolling it.
Tang may self promote, but who cares. Plenty of casters/pros shamelessly self promote in replays and interviews all the time. Its how you get your name out there. What matters is that you're trying to do something helpful along with it. Which I believe Tang was trying to help out the newer players here. Especially ones that have read his guides like Shaft and myself.
For me personally, the point about thinking of creep spread as your map vision, was great. I needed to hear that. I am terrible with my Platinum level creep spread. I normally think of it as just needed in the front of my base so I can't get contained in ZvT. But that's obviously wrong. So will be a good point for me to work on.
Thanks Tang. Keep up the good work. H8rs gonna h8. I hope you now that everyone here with a blue post has done more to help people in the strategy forums than Tang ever will.
I'm pretty sure this blatantly qualifies as trolling so... stfu. I've seen plenty of people with blue posts be just as stupid as you are now. No real big deal. But it should definitely be noted you're posting in the strategy forum, and the content of your post has nothing to do with strategy. That pretty much qualifies you as a spammer, as well as a troll. By the way, "know" is spelled with a "k," I hope you now that.
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Honestly, Tang, I've been using roach drops a bit vs T. The moving drop, where you click on the overlord, is great for auto-spreading them vs tank fire.
Also, not to get off subject, but I'm certain Tang might benefit from this question as much as I: What constitutes self-promotion? So often I've found myself wanting to give someone advice, but knowing that forums are not a practical media by which to do so. I might have a replay, or have read an article, or saw a VoD that's worth posting, and relevant to the question -- it might even answer the question entirely. But should I not post it?
Most people will say "yes, post it." But now, what if I made that VoD myself? If it's EXACTLY the same VoD, and it still answers the question EXACTLY, is it "self promotion" to link to it?
I'm going to offer an answer, and please guys, feel free to disagree with it. I am kind of trying to encourage that, so that clearer boundaries are established within the forum. But in my eyes, as long as the link is not posted stand-alone, that is to say, there's some kind of explanation like
Thread titled: [H]Dealing with Bunker Rushes in ZvT
You need to exercise proper drone control. The best way to do that in my opinion is to pull 6-8 workers, and place a worker or two on each side of the bunker. Use one drone to target fire the building SCV, and 2 drones to intercept a marine. If you have any questions about what I mean or would like to see this in action, check out this vod: xxx.com
then it should be alright. This is obviously potentially abusable, but that can be handled. Some balance between the two is a necessity.
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The writeup is slightly less concise then the way Id like it to be, but thanks for it anyways,
Ive been reading and watching your threads do improve my play, and your discussions and your perspective on Zerg gameplay has been very resourceful.
Also, to everyone else, keep your opinions that are irrelevent to Tang's actual discussion out, its hard to read through a thread filled with such irrelevent nonsense about his characther rather then the actual disccussion at hand.
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Ok, I've made a couple updates to the OP that I hope will emphasize my points about Stephano's unique style. I've also added discussion questions that I hope some of you will take the time to analyze with me. The first question is...
1) Why does Stephano get such a late 3rd? It seemed that at 7:30 he has complete map control...why not take it then?
When I first watched the game, I was shocked that Stephano didn't take his expansion right after his lings cleaned up Makaprime's marine push. I felt he was definitely safe to do it, but instead he just added more creep, zerglings, gas, and even a macro hatch before finally taking his expansion at 10:15 or so. While there are likely a number of reasons for this, I think the main explanation is that you don't really use your 3rd base to boost your economy for a long time anyway. A lot of zerg players rush their 3rd base, and end up just using the larva to produce units to defend mid-game terran pressure. Instead of taking the 3rd in a somewhat risky location on Shakuras, Stephano opts to build a macro hatch so that he can increase his production without added risk. I don't think many diamond or lower players realize the full production capabilities of 2base zerg (or 2base zerg with a macro hatch), and rush to take their 3rd where they feel they have to be to compete with 2base terran. From watching Stephano's play, I've realized a lot unnecessary risks I've made in the mid game.
When Stephano finally took his 3rd, makaprime actually dropped on it and forced the cancel - and that's when I realized that if he had built the expansion earlier, he probably would have lost it anyway.
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Ok, I've made a couple updates to the OP that I hope will emphasize my points about Stephano's unique style. I've also added discussion questions that I hope some of you will take the time to analyze with me. The first question is...
1) Why does Stephano get such a late 3rd? It seemed that at 7:30 he has complete map control...why not take it then?
When I first watched the game, I was shocked that Stephano didn't take his expansion right after his lings cleaned up Makaprime's marine push. I felt he was definitely safe to do it, but instead he just added more creep, zerglings, gas, and even a macro hatch before finally taking his expansion at 10:15 or so. While there are likely a number of reasons for this, I think the main explanation is that you don't really use your 3rd base to boost your economy for a long time anyway. A lot of zerg players rush their 3rd base, and end up just using the larva to produce units to defend mid-game terran pressure. Instead of taking the 3rd in a somewhat risky location on Shakuras, Stephano opts to build a macro hatch so that he can increase his production without added risk. I don't think many diamond or lower players realize the full production capabilities of 2base zerg (or 2base zerg with a macro hatch), and rush to take their 3rd where they feel they have to be to compete with 2base terran. From watching Stephano's play, I've realized a lot unnecessary risks I've made in the mid game.
When Stephano finally took his 3rd, makaprime actually dropped on it and forced the cancel - and that's when I realized that if he had built the expansion earlier, he probably would have lost it anyway.
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On December 16 2011 01:15 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +I'm glad there's people on TL like you who can say what needs to be said without coming off as a douche (and/or getting banned). I actually thought my comment was a little douchey, but I gave in to my urge to say what I thought after decaf's exchange (I thought decaf was right). I don't want to bash Tang. He seems like a nice enough kid that loves SC2 and is pretty good at it. He just wants people to know that he's pretty good at SC2 which can rub people the wrong way, but it's not a cardinal sin. It's probably the norm at a certain age range. Honestly, I think if this thread were titled and packaged slightly differently, nobody would have had a problem with it. It would have just been a generic "basic advice" guide with some notes about lair timings. In the spirit of trying to be more helpful: Tang, if you do another one of these pro-game analysis posts, try to think about what the player does *differently* from normal play, the reasoning behind that difference, and why it works. In this game, the differences from normal ZvT might have been a delayed lair and completely skipping muta tech. Instead of just mentioning the lair timing, tell us what advantage Stephano gains from that timing. And you seemed to take the wrong approach on the muta issue--Stephano made a strategic decision not to get mutas at all in order to get something else (more infestors? faster hive? faster upgrades?). Tell us about that decision and what the considerations are. Don't analyze a game where a player specifically decides to skip mutas and tell us that mutas would have been a nice addition as if the player just forgot.
I admit I cringed and gritted my teeth a little at your implication that I'm some child, lol, but I do appreciate the advice about what the player does *differently* and made a few adjustments to my introductory paragraph. So thank you.
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On December 20 2011 01:56 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 01:15 kcdc wrote:I'm glad there's people on TL like you who can say what needs to be said without coming off as a douche (and/or getting banned). I actually thought my comment was a little douchey, but I gave in to my urge to say what I thought after decaf's exchange (I thought decaf was right). I don't want to bash Tang. He seems like a nice enough kid that loves SC2 and is pretty good at it. He just wants people to know that he's pretty good at SC2 which can rub people the wrong way, but it's not a cardinal sin. It's probably the norm at a certain age range. Honestly, I think if this thread were titled and packaged slightly differently, nobody would have had a problem with it. It would have just been a generic "basic advice" guide with some notes about lair timings. In the spirit of trying to be more helpful: Tang, if you do another one of these pro-game analysis posts, try to think about what the player does *differently* from normal play, the reasoning behind that difference, and why it works. In this game, the differences from normal ZvT might have been a delayed lair and completely skipping muta tech. Instead of just mentioning the lair timing, tell us what advantage Stephano gains from that timing. And you seemed to take the wrong approach on the muta issue--Stephano made a strategic decision not to get mutas at all in order to get something else (more infestors? faster hive? faster upgrades?). Tell us about that decision and what the considerations are. Don't analyze a game where a player specifically decides to skip mutas and tell us that mutas would have been a nice addition as if the player just forgot. I admit I cringed and gritted my teeth a little at your implication that I'm some child, lol, but I do appreciate the advice about what the player does *differently* and made a few adjustments to my introductory paragraph. So thank you.
I'm going to have to agree with Monk and Kcdc here, but I think it's really great how you are taking the criticisms very well. To be honest, I've seen a lot of your threads and you came off as a bit arrogant and a little too strong on the self-promotion. However, I feel like you are really trying to help all players and are truly passionate for the game, and I really respect your ability to not be overly defensive when respected TL members are putting you down.
If you made everything a little less about "Tang," I don't think anyone would have a problem with anything. I imagine it must be hard when the community that you love starts to flame you for your efforts, but there are reasons for it, and these reasons can be addressed! I think everyone should acknowledge your willingness to adapt and listen to suggestions, and I hope that you can keep contributing with their comments in mind!
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Yeah, Tang, about your discussion questions, I agree alot of players allow what they hear to affect what they do. What I mean by that is, how many times have you and I, as Zerg players, heard that you must always, 100%, unequivocally be up a base? Too many times to count, but I think players like Stephano actually show otherwise. You hit most of the explaining points well -- no economic boost, just production for the mid-game, etc -- but I think for Stephano, it's a few other things, as well. What you said is absolutely right, but consider these factors as well:
In a situation where you are FORCED to remain on two bases in a ZvT, what is the best case scenario?
- Amazing drone saturation
- Strong production, from maco hatcheries
- Very centralized bases, rather than being spread out everywhere
- And, most importantly of all, you can tech a lot harder, a lot faster
Stephano is one of my favorite players. I study his games, have entire notebooks dedicated to what he does in every situation. You've kind of combined, in the OP, his new style with his old style, and offered no distinction between the two. Partly, it's because in the game you're analyzing, he opens with his old BO, and seems to be trying to do the heavy infestor style he has been known for.
It used to be that Stephano favored ling-infestor over pretty much everything else. Now, he's favoring pure ling with 3/3 upgrades, adrenal glands, and some form of hive tech -- usually ultra, but he's known for his tech switching in this period. So the reason, in my opinion, that he goes for a later third is so he can get his hive tech -- I think that's his primary motivating factor. You don't really see it in this game vs Maka, but player tendency plays a factor here. In this particular game, it's debatable whether a quicker third would have helped or hindered his strategy, but in Stephano's experience of high-tech games, he tends to favor delayed expansions.
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On December 20 2011 15:05 theonlyshaft wrote:
Yeah, Tang, about your discussion questions, I agree alot of players allow what they hear to affect what they do. What I mean by that is, how many times have you and I, as Zerg players, heard that you must always, 100%, unequivocally be up a base? Too many times to count, but I think players like Stephano actually show otherwise. You hit most of the explaining points well -- no economic boost, just production for the mid-game, etc -- but I think for Stephano, it's a few other things, as well. What you said is absolutely right, but consider these factors as well:
In a situation where you are FORCED to remain on two bases in a ZvT, what is the best case scenario?
- Amazing drone saturation
- Strong production, from maco hatcheries
- Very centralized bases, rather than being spread out everywhere
- And, most importantly of all, you can tech a lot harder, a lot faster
Stephano is one of my favorite players. I study his games, have entire notebooks dedicated to what he does in every situation. You've kind of combined, in the OP, his new style with his old style, and offered no distinction between the two. Partly, it's because in the game you're analyzing, he opens with his old BO, and seems to be trying to do the heavy infestor style he has been known for.
It used to be that Stephano favored ling-infestor over pretty much everything else. Now, he's favoring pure ling with 3/3 upgrades, adrenal glands, and some form of hive tech -- usually ultra, but he's known for his tech switching in this period. So the reason, in my opinion, that he goes for a later third is so he can get his hive tech -- I think that's his primary motivating factor. You don't really see it in this game vs Maka, but player tendency plays a factor here. In this particular game, it's debatable whether a quicker third would have helped or hindered his strategy, but in Stephano's experience of high-tech games, he tends to favor delayed expansions.
I agree, waiting for a bit better creep spread (on top of having infestors just around the corner) makes it easier to hold your 3rd base which, as you mention, is usually where zerg starts to spread out and no longer has a centralized base.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/H3V21.jpg)
