|
I’ve tried this out a lot and I have to say the replays seem very unrepresentative of how the games play out in my experience. In a lot of the replays the 8 stalkers move-out, poke up the ramp, and kill a few enemy units and sometimes even do real damage. In my experience, the enemy Never fails to force field the ramp, and whatever unit poked up the ramp (usually a probe, but maybe a stalker) Always dies.
Slightly less than half the time when they see your eight stalkers at their ramp they warp in a few zealots from their proxy pylon (which isn’t near your base, but somewhere out on the map) and walk them into your base and heaven help you if you are between warp cycles because you lose 20 seconds of mining time while your probes evade the zealots.
I’ll likely keep using this as a very turtlely build that’s safe from 4 gate and transitions nicely into blink, but I really just don’t understand how the build could ever actually succeed at applying pressure without a serious choke from the opponent.
|
On December 19 2011 07:11 General_Winter wrote:
I’ve tried this out a lot and I have to say the replays seem very unrepresentative of how the games play out in my experience. In a lot of the replays the 8 stalkers move-out, poke up the ramp, and kill a few enemy units and sometimes even do real damage. In my experience, the enemy Never fails to force field the ramp, and whatever unit poked up the ramp (usually a probe, but maybe a stalker) Always dies.
Slightly less than half the time when they see your eight stalkers at their ramp they warp in a few zealots from their proxy pylon (which isn’t near your base, but somewhere out on the map) and walk them into your base and heaven help you if you are between warp cycles because you lose 20 seconds of mining time while your probes evade the zealots.
I’ll likely keep using this as a very turtlely build that’s safe from 4 gate and transitions nicely into blink, but I really just don’t understand how the build could ever actually succeed at applying pressure without a serious choke from the opponent.
so you are a protoss that blindly runs up a ramp and loose units stupidly? you need to bait forcefields, not actually run up and loose shyt.
I will gonna try this build against some practise partners soon, and i will post my results soon ^^
Tech
|
I want to clarify what exactly you mean by bait force fields. What I do is move most of the stalkers to near the base of the ramp, and then 1 guy runs up the ramp get vision. Then while I have vision, the stalker mob down below tries to focus fire one of his units on the high ground and keep doing this until the guy giving vision is killed and a force field gets planted behind him.
Typically the probe trades for some damage on a sentry and the first stalker to poke up lets me kill the sentry and get some damage on another unit. Then a last unit ( often a zealot built for this) pokes up and either sees a bunch more sentries or an immortal and the attack is over.
Then I slink home having lost a probe, stalker, and zealot for killing a sentry and getting hull damage on two stalkers. Obviously, it can vary; sometimes he misses a force field, or I can focus fire two sentries and just charge in and wreck up the place, but the above is how it typically goes, ie not well.
How should someone try to bust a ramp with 8 stalkers other than poking up one guy at a time and using vision to focus fire?
Lastly, I do want to note that although I have doubts about the early pressure I do really like the build. It's safe in the early game and has very smooth transitions and good game flow.
edit: removed iphone auto corrects like staplers for stalkers, and minor grammar points
|
Winter, the general idea is that unless you need them, it is smarter to not get all 8 stalkers. Depending on my read/the pressure that is coming from the other protoss, I usually only stick with the initial 5, then add robo/twilight. You would be surprised how effective those 5 stalkers can be at applying pressure, usually you can bait a ff, if not get them to build more sentries, especially if your opponent is being greedy. You get bonus points for faking two pylons at the base of their ramp, then they will really panic. If he has anywhere near similar amounts of units as you move your 5 stalkers across the map, you can be pretty sure that he has done some sort of delayed 4 gate.
The more I play with the build, it seems really geared towards a robo blink followup. I kept trying to force DT-> charge/archon to work, but it seems very finicky as the DT's come out very late, and your opponent is probably going robo/blink himself to try and counter the threat of blink stalkers. It's also a bit redundant because you already have map control.
Phoenix followups seemed like a good idea for a while, but in practice I find that because they are a bit delayed compared to a standard phoenix opener, you end up in a very rough spot vs someone that is also opening phoenix. If they can maintain their phoenix count, they will always have more phoenix than you, which is a pretty terrible situation.On the plus side, you are in a very good spot if your opponent goes for stargate play and you go robo blink. You already have a high stalker count to deter the harassment, and even better you don't have any vulnerable sentries he can snipe.
The one thing that really worries me are DT rushes, because your obs comes out quite late even if you throw it down immediately after the first 5 stalkers. It's possible for your opponent to deny scouting up his ramp for long enough with FF's that it can be difficult to react in time to block your ramp. I'm thinking it might be best to build a choke at your ramp with your 2nd/3rd gateways in order to block DT's in case of emergencies. I've also been toying with getting 2 observers, but that seems like a lot of gas at a time in the game where you are trying to maximize your stalker count.
|
So I've been using this a lot lately (ran into it once on ladder as well, but the guy didn't execute it properly), and I made a small modification that I find very helpful. Sarovati uses his 3rd chronoboost on probes around 16, however in my experience, it is slightly safer to cut probes at 16 to build your core, then use the chronoboost on probes once you resume probe production. Your core ends up being a little bit quicker (meaning a slightly faster stalker/warp gate), but it also gives you a little bit more time to find your opponents base. I feel a lot more comfortable defending a proxy 2 gate or a canon rush by chronoing out my first zealot, if I get the chance.
|
I got to play a custom against a GM toss. ( Ian diamond) and I ended up doing pretty well. forced a base race and ended up losing but not bad for a diamond player
|
An absolutely brilliant build that has shot in to my most used PvP BO. It transitions well and if performed crisply, holds the 1gas 4 gate well.
The amount of games ive won outright with the 8 early stalkers is comical.
Thanks a lot SaroVati! 
|
Glad to see it's still working for people out there
And Sceptre I've been doing that almost exclusively now as well, the extra chrono and speed of the cyber really helps vs. either a proxy 2 gate or a straight up 4 gate
As a side note, for those trying to micro during the 6 stalker 1 zealot vs. 8 stalker situation, you should just try to stutterstep the zealot and THEN go for stalkers. Often protoss's try to snipe the stalkers outright and that allows the zealot to do a lot of damage. If the stalker count is 6 (for you) to anything 3 or UNDER, you have to snipe the stalkers, as you can 2 shot each one and the zealots will die quickly after
|
On December 20 2011 04:56 Sceptre wrote:
The one thing that really worries me are DT rushes, because your obs comes out quite late even if you throw it down immediately after the first 5 stalkers. It's possible for your opponent to deny scouting up his ramp for long enough with FF's that it can be difficult to react in time to block your ramp. I'm thinking it might be best to build a choke at your ramp with your 2nd/3rd gateways in order to block DT's in case of emergencies. I've also been toying with getting 2 observers, but that seems like a lot of gas at a time in the game where you are trying to maximize your stalker count.
I've also had some DT troubles.
example game v DTs http://drop.sc/80095 (note: not a well played game, just an example of rushed DTs)
In this case, I see a proxy pylon and so warp in stalkers 6, 7 and 8 in case he is aggressive with gateway units and start robo and twilight a bit late. Even if I had skipped the last 3 stalkers though, his DT shrine finished at about 7 which is sooner than an obs would be possible.
Has any one else hit these fast DT rushes and how have people been responding?
|
Saro I use this build exclusively PvP. It is really working out well for me, thanks!
|
If you see the proxy pylon, warp in your 3 stalkers, and no 4 gate comes, be aggressive. You will reach his base at 6:30 latest, and when you poke up his ramp and see 5-7 zealots and like 2 stalkers, guess what is happening? Warp in sentries (you have 30 seconds to do this) and camp your ramp til robo finishes. FF + chrono obs will be out in time. If you REALLY feel unsafe, build 3 pylons at the top of your ramp, or just hold position your stalkers on your ramp. The latter will lose a few units / money, but used in conjunction with FF, you will have a 0% chance of losing to rushed DT's.
On a similar note, a DT rush THAT fast requires a FAST gas and instant saturation. When scouting this, what is the chance he actually is trying to 4 gate you o.O? Even if it is a fake, that's a potential 150 minerals wasted into his 2nd gas and mining time, which means delaying your 3 stalkers for a faster robo is completely safe.
|
Updated the OP with a lot of newer replays, as well as the modification by building my 2nd and 3rd gate on the ramp of my natural to bait a 4 gate, but also allow the possibility of expanding (omg in PvP????) if you see zero aggression from your protoss counterpart. Please critique it, and any grandmaster / high master protoss's can ask me for a few games to test it out. If you have some amazing reads, I think that this might allow a safe expo off 2 gas and 3 gates!
|
Any build that can defend a 4 gate without a single sentry, while spending this gas on stalkers, can probably transition into a really dangerous blink stalker all-in, or even a phoenix-stalker push (if you expand,) so I'm definitely gonna watch out for people canceling the zealot now!
|
Gotta say, this build is so SO dangerous. I'm 11-0 since using it PvP, just simply making carnage on their ramp or defending on mine, and transitioning blink/obs or Expo if they aren't dead yet. My opponents simply don't expect the sheer number of stalkers I can deliver to their base! With micro, you lose 1 stalker for every 2 units defending (Units shooting below FF, kiting).
I don't have the final answer on when to drop the council, when to expand, when to just robo and go, but I'm learning which of them work.
|
Haha glad to see you are still getting it to work To be honest I'm still not 100% clear as to what reads I should see to expand, go robo, go twilight, go stargate etc., but I hope you've realized you have the gas and sim city at your natural to do really whatever you want I'll add a few more recent reps to the OP as well
|
hello guys, first post around here.. nice web though, i´m from venezuela, and i´m plat atm, nice build, gonna try..
|
Ack!! Why did I not see this thread when it was first started lol, I have been 3 stalker rushing into blink obs for the longest time because I fucking HATE dieing to 4 gate and sentrys suck in PvP. I also really like the zealot cancel thing for them cannon rushers. I will have to give this a try in my next PvP
|
i really want to proof myself againts you guys..
pls add me.. i want a leats a match
yunkeacme@gmail.com
cod: 987
|
Added more reps to the OP, including more expansion variants that have been working at the GM level (I'm currently top 25 so I guess it's working well?) And if you want some practice games I could play you when I'm not so busy If anyone is breaking any ground in efficiently using their excess gas after the pressure, please tell me! It seems when I go my 5 stalker --> expand --> 2-3 sentry warp in my money pans out nicely, but when I warp in 8 (and kill them 50% of the time) I seem to float 400-500 gas and cant get rid of it unless i drop 3 sentries, a robo, a twilight all at once 
|
hi.. i have tried your build and it works for me at least 5 times, and even works againt terran lol .. gimme you user so i can add you
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
