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Thanks for this guide. The build looks very cool.
I was wondering if it would be possible to get a slightly faster scout or if that would mess up the timings too much. On closer spawn ( like close by air on metal or shattered ) I like to use Adel Scott style two gate zealot pressure into expand and that build opens 12 gate 14 gate. So I'd really like to have the scout reach the closer spawn by 14 and branch into one of these two build once I know their location.
Is an earlier scout possible? If so are there any changes you would make to the early chrono with a scout on 10-11 rather than after the gate? Thanks
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@SaroVati
Why do you assume i am diamond-, that is offensive! :p anyways if a sentry is behind your main forces it will be much harder to snipe it, and what it does it basically gives you 2 armor and shield upgrades at 100-200 gas cost, now that is worth it even if there is a chance of your opponent sniping it, not to say that most of the times even in master and GM league people have a hard time focusing it out with all the micro going on.
Also, you can't really pressure someone in PvP, since if you try to go up his ramp he will split your forces and kill free units, so against a tech build your opening is just weak.
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I will say that TWICE on 4 player maps, I scouted the guy last and he was proxy 2 gating me. Already cancelled the zealot TT.
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First of all hey and thanks for sharing this awesome build. im masters eu toss and i have 2 questions for you:
1). Instead of faking a zealot, wouldn't stealing your opponents gas be better? I know that you are 75 minerals behind but that way you are delaying their tech way too long while you can still hold a 4gate. or can't you? are the timings that thin that if you steal their gas, you straight up lose to a 4gate?
2). You say stalkers are always useful in a PvP and i fully agree to that, but what if your opponents goes mass immortals, f.e 1gate into robo into 2 more gates and chronoboosts non-stop immortals? how will you transition out of that? expand and zealot charge into archons maybe, while your stalkers contain him? i would like to know how would you deal with that (i watched all the replays you provided and didn't find any similar situations).
thanks
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On December 07 2011 02:41 Fred Flintstone wrote:
First of all hey and thanks for sharing this awesome build. im masters eu toss and i have 2 questions for you:
1). Instead of faking a zealot, wouldn't stealing your opponents gas be better? I know that you are 75 minerals behind but that way you are delaying their tech way too long while you can still hold a 4gate. or can't you? are the timings that thin that if you steal their gas, you straight up lose to a 4gate?
2). You say stalkers are always useful in a PvP and i fully agree to that, but what if your opponents goes mass immortals, f.e 1gate into robo into 2 more gates and chronoboosts non-stop immortals? how will you transition out of that? expand and zealot charge into archons maybe, while your stalkers contain him? i would like to know how would you deal with that (i watched all the replays you provided and didn't find any similar situations).
thanks
The timings are very, very thin. The reason you cancel the zealot is that you NEED the money to be able to get all of the stalkers out on time. Keep in mind that when cancelling units you do get 100% of the money back, so there is no cost associated with cancelling it.
As to your second point, I've been finding that the Stalker contain is really important. I think one of the flaws of the build is that your tech is slightly delayed (compared to a faster tech build). While you can skip your first round of warp ins in order to get a tech building, in my games I've been finding the early stalker contain to be really beneficial, as it gives you a bit of room to breathe at the same time as it keeps your opponent from expanding.
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On December 06 2011 22:12 General_Winter wrote:
Thanks for this guide. The build looks very cool.
I was wondering if it would be possible to get a slightly faster scout or if that would mess up the timings too much. On closer spawn ( like close by air on metal or shattered ) I like to use Adel Scott style two gate zealot pressure into expand and that build opens 12 gate 14 gate. So I'd really like to have the scout reach the closer spawn by 14 and branch into one of these two build once I know their location.
Is an earlier scout possible? If so are there any changes you would make to the early chrono with a scout on 10-11 rather than after the gate? Thanks
Earlier scouting would probably be possible actually. You should be able to scout on 10/11, but the chronoboost would be the EXACT same. Your build would be 3-4 seconds slower, which MIGHT make a difference, but then again as you said in your example, if you figure out the opponent is cross map rather than close by air, the walking distance for the 2nd stalker in a 4 gate will also be late, so it shouldn't affect you that much. Still gate on 12 and chronoboost right afterwards, the rest should remain similar.
On December 07 2011 00:15 moskonia wrote:
@SaroVati
Why do you assume i am diamond-, that is offensive! :p anyways if a sentry is behind your main forces it will be much harder to snipe it, and what it does it basically gives you 2 armor and shield upgrades at 100-200 gas cost, now that is worth it even if there is a chance of your opponent sniping it, not to say that most of the times even in master and GM league people have a hard time focusing it out with all the micro going on.
Also, you can't really pressure someone in PvP, since if you try to go up his ramp he will split your forces and kill free units, so against a tech build your opening is just weak.
I apologize if you are offended by that, but realistically I haven't seen many masters level protoss sit idle the entire game and a-move. The "deathball" a-move protoss gets ineffective after diamond to be honest lol.
What you said is kinda contradictory though.... You told me my build is stagnant and the only transition is blink, then you tell me now I can't pressure unless I go up his ramp and get split. If I take an expansion with robo blink:
a) he wont FF me and trap me, I have blink.
b) if he's on one base, I will base race him and win
c) if he attempts to expand, I can blink harass both his front and his main
How does this build straight up lose to any tech builds? 10 minutes in, regardless of if you rushed tech, or saved up the gas, we should be even in terms of tech.... oh and expect that you spent 100 of your gas in a sentry that doesnt benefit your tech, whereas my gas in my blink stalkers benefits my blink upgrade....
On December 07 2011 01:58 Sceptre wrote:
I will say that TWICE on 4 player maps, I scouted the guy last and he was proxy 2 gating me. Already cancelled the zealot TT.
Really?  Usually the first zealot of a 2 gate proxy will finish 10 seconds before a standard 12 gate zealot comes out because it it chrono boosted, and it is dropped at 10 or 11 supply. That really shouldn't happen unless he's hiding all his zealots til he gets 3, which would lose outright to ANY standard stalker play or scout
On December 07 2011 02:41 Fred Flintstone wrote:
First of all hey and thanks for sharing this awesome build. im masters eu toss and i have 2 questions for you:
1). Instead of faking a zealot, wouldn't stealing your opponents gas be better? I know that you are 75 minerals behind but that way you are delaying their tech way too long while you can still hold a 4gate. or can't you? are the timings that thin that if you steal their gas, you straight up lose to a 4gate?
2). You say stalkers are always useful in a PvP and i fully agree to that, but what if your opponents goes mass immortals, f.e 1gate into robo into 2 more gates and chronoboosts non-stop immortals? how will you transition out of that? expand and zealot charge into archons maybe, while your stalkers contain him? i would like to know how would you deal with that (i watched all the replays you provided and didn't find any similar situations).
thanks
unless you cut probes, the 75 minerals will put you too far behind. The build itself BARELY squeezes out the stalkers in time, and by cutting probes you limit yourself to less-than-optimum saturation for your mineral line on 2 gas, which is never a good thing. I think the timings aren't THAT thin, but by stealing their gas you limit your own transition as well.
For your 2nd question, usually I go robo blink. If the opponent goes mass immortals to expand, you can blink in his base and abuse his lack of mobility HARD. Also, you can FF his ramp with an outside sentry and blink in and end the game if he's not prepared.
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I would attribute it more so to my opponents being sloppy. Literally the second after I cancelled the zealot, a zealot walks right up my ramp.
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Thank you for answering all the questions so vigilantly, you're awesome for doing so ^^
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I've been having pretty good results using this opening to transition into phoenix. If your opponent is playing a defensive robo build, he will often overreact to your high early stalker count, forcing him towards building more immortals/sentries at his ramp.
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Yeah it does provide a safe opening to tech to stargate... I might actually try that branch a bit more. If they are teching to blink, you should be able to safely scout it AND have 40 seconds of harass too... looks promising for a solid build that incorporates harass  Problem is I think fast DT's would wreck you, but if you saw a high zealot count at the ramp, I guess you could just go robo and probably win :D
Any other attempts at transitions are also welcome, please tell me how they go, or even post a replay!
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this build sound well,but...what i can do if my opponent gas steal me?
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On December 09 2011 23:21 EpicFail83 wrote:
this build sound well,but...what i can do if my opponent gas steal me?
You gas steal him back. If you see him take his 2nd gas, there's a high chance he doesn't have the money to take yours... Remember you are taking your gas at 22, whereas the standard FASTEST gas possible is 21 lol.
If you DO get your gas stolen, you could take an expo or attempt to break him down with a 4 gate.... you are opening quite similarly to a 4 gate actually, so if he takes his own gas AND yours THAT early, you should be able to just kill him outright.
My personal response is expo though, especially on a map like shakuras, where i can build my 2nd and 3rd gates at the choke and create a solid wall for any 4 gate pressure if he decides to do it.
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just tried it out with my pvp practice partner. it works remarkably well, and it isn't too difficult to execute either.
the best part about the build is the flexibility, after you have crushed the 4gate, you can do whatever you like; you can add more probes, add more gates, add a robo, the world is your khaydarin crystal.
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I try this build too and work well.I think can work also on taldarim for crush four gate...or not?i veto taldarim because is very boring start every pvsp with four gate.....
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decimates 4gate on taldarim altar le
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i can supply replays of this build pwning the 4gate, both the regular kind and the fastest 4gate on taldarim altar, if you like
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Glad to know it's working for you And yes to the other question, it crushed a 4 gate if executed correctly. That being said, you need more micro than the 4-gater, but that's all up to you
A question selendis, how do you normally follow up? As you said, you can do anything you want practically with 2 gas and like 200 gas in the bank, but I'm wondering what you prefer. Is it as predictable as people say if you go blink stalkers? Or do you go robo blink for cheese-security?
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This build looks promising. I tried it in a few custom games and it works surprisingly well. I wouldn't jump right into ladder with it though. I feel like it needs a bit of experience with since the timings are actually quite crisp and you gotta learn to deal with different strategies from your opponents.
I will definitely throw this in once in a while into my otherwise quite robo-centric play style.
Thank You Sir!
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Thanks for the guide, been trying it out and it works great. It completely crushes 4 gate if done correctly. I've been trying to play other things then robo openings but Iately but I havn't been able to find something that works as well as this. Thank-you again!
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EPT
