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Hi guess I'm back on Teamliquid with another one of my builds that I have created and refined. If people still remember (doubt it), I created the PvP Stronger 4 Gate thread here a while back, and surprisingly have been seeing the exact build pop up on ladder from time to time! Using that as inspiration, I decided to post another one of my PvP builds that I've just created  Just to establish when and where this build works, I've beaten players like vileYong, coL.rsvp, cvgKnighter, and countless other Grandmaster players with it on ladder. Just a note about myself as well, I am currently a Grandmaster protoss on the North American server.
Here's the basic skeleton of the build in number form:
9 Pylon (Chronoboost when complete)
12 Gateway (Scout and chronoboost when you drop this gateway)
14 Gas
17 Cybernetics Core
17 Pylon
Chrono when pylon finishes
19 Zealot (THIS IS A FAKE, cancel it once your cybercore finishes, I will explain down below as to why)
21 Stalker and warp gate research the moment cybercore finishes (Chronoboost warpgate search)
Cut probes at 22/26 supply.
22 TWO gates as soon as you have money
22 2nd gas
22 2nd stalker (chronoboost warpgate again)
24 Probe
25 Pylon
Put 3 probes instantly in gas (You can rally the 3rd probe that's building from your nexus to the geyser for a few extra minerals that'll help line up your stalker production better if you didn't mineral stack very well)
25 Make 3 stalkers at once (chronoboost warpgate)
31 Probe
32 Pylon
32 Warp in 3 stalkers when warpgate finishes
Although this build goes up to 32 food and tells you to warp in 3 stalkers, you can actually do a variation where you drop your tech structures before, and warp in stalkers later.
Now for the note about the zealot cancel.
Usually, while doing a 4 gate or similar strategy, you build a zealot for extra defense. While doing a 3 stalker rush, you straight up dont have the minerals to even fake a zealot as you drop a quick 2nd gate. Because my build is new and innovative in the way that you drop a 2nd and 3rd gate at the same time, the initial zealot can be faked. This accomplishes 3 goals:
1) It tricks your opponent on what type of build you're actually doing. This build relies on stalkers and stalker micro, and by seeing the zealot "building" will not be revealed as easily
2) Because you scout on 12 after your gate, on a 4 player map you MIGHT not find his base yet. If zealots enter your base because of a 2 gate proxy, you have a zealot 80% complete and can chrono a stalker out. With micro, you can come out of this situation alright.
3) If he cannon rushes, again you have the safety of the zealot to fall back on in case of a lack-of-scouting. Cancelling a building unit returns 100% of the cost, and these 100 minerals are not being used anyways.
The 2 stalkers in the beginning are very crucial. Like my previous build, your warp gate will be approximately 10 seconds later than a full out 4 gate. We will use these 2 stalkers to deny a probe building a pylon in your base. They will 2 shot probes, just as 3 stalkers in a 3 stalker rush would. As long as the probe doesn't drop a pylon IN your base, you should be able to 100% successfully repel a 4 gate.
The beauty of this build lies in the fact that although your warp gate is later, your unit cycle that comes out RIGHT before warp gate finishes would be about 10 seconds faster than his warp gate units, as it takes units 5 seconds to actually warp in. With 5 initial stalkers over his beginning 5 stalkers (his 6th one should be waltzing across the map) and ramp support, you should be able to win the battle. If you manage to delay him even 5 seconds, your instant warp in of 3 more stalkers at approximately 5:55 to 6:00 will net you 8 stalkers vs. 6 and a zealot, and with proper micro you should CRUSH the push.
Why did I create this build? For a long time people were trying to figure out how to hold a 4 gate, while taking a second gas. Then people found a few builds, and it turned into how to hold a 4 gate, while taking a second gas, while only building 1 sentry. I decided that with crisp timings, I would design a build to crush a 4 gate WITHOUT a sentry, as well as 2 gases and 20+ probes, and regardless of sim-city, as that would be map-dependent. I was inspired by a game where I actually played really poorly. I dropped my 2nd gate in a 3 stalker rush extremely extremely late due to probe microing, and saw that my gateway finished about 40 seconds before warpgate, and used the idea of the 3 stalker rush timing to concoct a similar one, but with 3 warp gates. The result? Enough to beat top Grandmaster protoss's and hold my ground against any protoss thrown against me. I hope you enjoy this build just as much as I did
Replays, replays, replays!
http://drop.sc/69062 vs Anki
http://drop.sc/69063 vs vileYong
http://drop.sc/69064 vs Kowi
http://drop.sc/69065 vs tQMewtwo
http://drop.sc/69066 vs cvgKnighter
http://drop.sc/69067 vs cvgKnighter
http://drop.sc/69068 vs coL.rsvp
http://drop.sc/69069 vs ObZen
http://drop.sc/69070 vs cvgKnighter
http://drop.sc/69071 vs cvgKnighter
http://drop.sc/69277 vs Hype
http://drop.sc/69276 vs cona
http://drop.sc/76436 vs oGsVINES
http://drop.sc/80127 vs PswBoSS
NEWER REPS
http://drop.sc/89633 vs stoicZukapin......People have been saying 1 gate robo will completely shut this down...
http://drop.sc/89632 vs JawHun.............Also cracking a 1 gate robo
http://drop.sc/98987 vs Ragnarok
http://drop.sc/98988 vs LgNBoSs...........This game is hilarious because I SEE his proxy pylon in my base, but I let it survive until 4:45 where he is convinced he can 4 gate and win and then shut it down.
http://drop.sc/98989 vs SoulRemapper....Again cracking a 1 gate robo
http://drop.sc/98993 vs RGNPerfect........Against a pro on Tal'darim Alter, the infamous map for 4 gate, I absolutely dismantle Perfect's 4 gate with my build for the win.
http://drop.sc/98994 vs BoX....................I'm confused as to what this even was. This was an even faster (?) version of the warp gate, where he did an 11 gate. Needless to say, my build is even safe against quicker variations of the 4 gate, and end his attempt of pressure
http://drop.sc/100889 vs puCK..................I LOSE this game. That's right, I lose it. I'm not afraid to post this up as you will see some simple micro mistakes, a bad warp in, and overall a greedy attempt by me. I tried to wall in my natural on ARID PLATEAU. That map has 2 entrances and no ramp, so obviously I was punished by a 5:38 4 gate warp in. That being said, with better micro i might have actually been able to hold that off!
http://drop.sc/100891 vs ClanWater...........He tries a 3 gate robo, I decide to just go up his ramp, focus his immortal, and win
http://drop.sc/100892 vs ClanWater...........He tries to hold his ramp with 5 (YES, 5) sentries, but I still manage to pressure far enough in to warp in zealots to harass his mineral line. In the background, I'm already on colossus tech because I've been on 2 gas, which results in 2 colossus and a larger gateway army that pushes in 4 minutes later.
http://drop.sc/100893 vs Grape.................A "perfect" 1 gate robo hold I think. He manages to KILL 2 pylons without cancel and deny me with only 3 sentries. Little does he know I already have an expo building, and 5 sentries because of the gas waiting at home, and kill his all-in with my natural half-saturated because FF is OP
http://drop.sc/100894 vs oGsVINES..........He's back with a vengeance, and this game he manages to take the win from me. I suspect a 4 gate and therefore am too weary of pushing back out against him. Sadly to my dismay, he only made 1 zealot and 1 stalker before warp gate finished, and RUSHED blink (I mean like at 7 minutes because of 4 chrono boosts)
These next 2 reps are what I'm currently working on. It works atm on any map with a ramp at the natural, but currently I only have ladder reps vs. people on shakuras. It baits a 4 gate by building your 2nd and 3rd gate at the natural choke, but if you see something REALLY greedy you can also take an expansion behind the gateway wall and hold off 4 gate aggression.
http://drop.sc/89631 vs RiSK
http://drop.sc/89630 vs EGAxslav
http://drop.sc/91502 vs DaisyPrime.WE...(I actually messed up my BO by chrono'ing my stalker (1 less on WG), and still held off a 4 gate from a korean pro.
http://drop.sc/98990 vs SoulRemapper.....I bait a warp prism 4 gate because of the feigned expo, and decide to just run up his ramp with my initial 8 stalkers and KILL him.
http://drop.sc/98991 vs Fierytycoon.........I bait an expo out of him because he sees me gearing up for my own expo, and then just kill his expo because he obviously doesn't have enough units to stop my build with a makeshift one of his own.
http://drop.sc/98992 vs tQkcdc................I ask him in game what he thinks of my build, and he thinks it's either an FE or 4 gate. Luckily for me, it's a 2 gas 3 gate, so not only did he guess wrong, but I moved up the ramp and a-moved to victory!
http://drop.sc/100895 vs Bosnic................He thinks I am doing a fast expo, so he attempts his warp prism 4 gate. Luckily for me, my build order HARD counters that, and just a-move his base.
http://drop.sc/100890 vs cLSThundeR........He tries a 4 gate because I build at my ramp, I decide to pressure. I bait his entire army into a dead end with my 3 stalkers (in hind sight I should have only used 2 or 1 even), and then wreck his entire 4 gate army with my 3 gate. I proceed to a-move his ramp.
http://drop.sc/125620 vs erikwalser............Nothing special, just baiting a 4 gate and stomping it in front of my gateways.
http://drop.sc/127540 vs city.....................I do my new expand variant I diverge to if I see them take an early 2nd gas and saturate it... I really mess it up this game with a supply block and a random nexus cancel, but still get out enough units in time to deflect whatever pressure he might put, as WELL as an obs in time to defend against DTs
Please feel free to critique and give me response, as I'll be glad to test out any possible counters, or answer any questions! If there are any specific things you want to see that can't be seen in the replay, I will be streaming from time to time on Teamliquid my Grandmaster ladder games, so feel free to drop by and watch for a bit!
EDIT: I changed the build order a bit after fiddling around, and it seems cutting the 2nd pylon to make a faster cyber fits in a lot better with the build. Both ways are still viable, it is really just a stylistic choice I guess. That being said, many of the earlier replays will show the old version of the build (16 pylon 17 core) whereas some of the newer ones will show the updated version (17 core 17 pylon)
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Sounds interesting, will give it a look.
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This is a good build but like most 3gate pressure variants it's has some weaknesses. First to apply pressure at a timing where your opponent is vulnerable your tech will be delayed since you're spending the resources on stalkers. 2nd is that the pressure itself is not as strong as a blatant 4gate. If your opponent knows that you're going 3gateway before tech he can respond accordingly and you will be behind. Here's a replay I played vs you on ladder: http://drop.sc/69078
The 2x gateways at 22 supply before your first stalker is out to chase away the scouting probe broadcasts what you're trying to do. This means all I have to do is hold my ramp with a sentry or 2 and drop my tech before my first warpin to deal with your attack. In the replay I chose blink as I would be warping in a significant amount of stalkers to deal with your own and I knew my blink would be finished before yours.
It is really good against other pressure builds or if he doesn't know it's coming though
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What happens if that initial push gets denied. Not saying that you lose the stalkers, but you just can't do damage with it (at all)?
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have you faced any of the 10/11 gate fast warpgate timings that have been making the rounds? Seems like, with 17 cyber and only 3 chrono on WG, these builds will have a 20-30 second timing window before your wg finishes to snipe a pylon.
This kind of build is exactly what I like, though, squeezing out lots of stalkers early to punish over extensions/slack play.
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Hi , looks really cool but what i need are ur transitions( to use it for me, because i would be lost without :D):
-> after defend 4 Gate
-> if u scout phoenix, blinkstalker, fe...
Just way of transitions are very important for me
and is it playable on tal aldrim, i think yes because u dont play with ff right?
Thanks a lot
EmpTy
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Hero has been doing this on taldarim, only he does get the zealot. I dont get why you would want to use this build on other maps, there are more economic ways to stop 4gate, especially since the warp on highground nerf.
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I've been seeing HuK do this build not only on ladder, but at NASL 2 grand finals. Is the main purpose of the build just to hold a 4gate? Obviously placing 400 gas into 8 stalkers will delay tech. What's the transition if he doesn't 4gate? If you hold the 4gate and he simply falls back, what's the best move? Be aggressive or start teching to something like Blink Obs?
I believe HuK beat Hasuobs with this opening on Shattered Temple when Hasuobs decided to 4gate.
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On December 06 2011 05:34 Arcanefrost wrote:
Hero has been doing this on taldarim, only he does get the zealot. I dont get why you would want to use this build on other maps, there are more economic ways to stop 4gate, especially since the warp on highground nerf.
I'm pretty sure I've seen this opening done by other korean protoss players too but I forget which one. They do tend to get the zealot in exchange for a later 2nd gas.
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On December 06 2011 05:10 name_lock wrote:This is a good build but like most 3gate pressure variants it's has some weaknesses. First to apply pressure at a timing where your opponent is vulnerable your tech will be delayed since you're spending the resources on stalkers. 2nd is that the pressure itself is not as strong as a blatant 4gate. If your opponent knows that you're going 3gateway before tech he can respond accordingly and you will be behind. Here's a replay I played vs you on ladder: http://drop.sc/69078The 2x gateways at 22 supply before your first stalker is out to chase away the scouting probe broadcasts what you're trying to do. This means all I have to do is hold my ramp with a sentry or 2 and drop my tech before my first warpin to deal with your attack. In the replay I chose blink as I would be warping in a significant amount of stalkers to deal with your own and I knew my blink would be finished before yours. It is really good against other pressure builds or if he doesn't know it's coming though
I have 8 stalkers way before the 2nd round of warp ins from a 4 gate can come in, and in lots of replays of ladder that's enough to actually break a weak contain that goes straight into robo blink. My game vs. vileYong, a previous GSL contender is proof enough of that.
What you're saying plays right into what this build is designed to do as well. You'll "hold your ramp with a sentry or two?" How much gas is invested in that defense, which in a straight up mid-game engagement will be useful?
On December 06 2011 05:12 DYEAlabaster wrote:
What happens if that initial push gets denied. Not saying that you lose the stalkers, but you just can't do damage with it (at all)?
This isn't necessarily a push. If you can't do damage with it at all considering you have a higher stalker count, it means the opponent forcefielded you off his ramp. That means he has spent gas for sentries, which have a low offensive capability, especially against blink stalkers, which is the usual follow-up.
On December 06 2011 05:25 quillian wrote:
have you faced any of the 10/11 gate fast warpgate timings that have been making the rounds? Seems like, with 17 cyber and only 3 chrono on WG, these builds will have a 20-30 second timing window before your wg finishes to snipe a pylon.
This kind of build is exactly what I like, though, squeezing out lots of stalkers early to punish over extensions/slack play.
yes I have. And to be completely honest, the moment I scout the early gate, I abandon the build. No build will work 100% against every build and pull ahead. It's just not feasible. If you scout the 10/11 gate and mass saved up chronoboost, feel free to do a 3 stalker rush, or just a straight up 4 gate with good micro and sim city.
On December 06 2011 05:32 EmptYy wrote:
Hi , looks really cool but what i need are ur transitions( to use it for me, because i would be lost without :D):
-> after defend 4 Gate
-> if u scout phoenix, blinkstalker, fe...
Just way of transitions are very important for me
and is it playable on tal aldrim, i think yes because u dont play with ff right?
Thanks a lot
EmpTy
After you defend a 4 gate, if it's a 20 probe 4 gate, as seen in many of the replays, the opponent just taps out. You not only have 22 or so probes, but have been constantly mining 6 workers in a 22 assimilator. Really any transition will net you a win in this circumstance.
If you scout phoenix with your build, you obviously use your extra gas to tech to blink stalkers. In the replay, when I warp in my initial 8 stalkers, if I don't warp in another round of units, I have over 250 gas. This means I can drop a robo AND a twilight if I really want to be safe. The large amount of gas, as well as stalkers (which are ALWAYS useful PvP) will open up a variety of possibilities for you.
To your question on Tal'darim, I defended tQMewtwo's 20 probe 5 chronoboost 4 gate on tal'darim without pulling probes or anything. With crisp execution, this build will work well on that map as well.
On December 06 2011 05:34 Arcanefrost wrote:
Hero has been doing this on taldarim, only he does get the zealot. I dont get why you would want to use this build on other maps, there are more economic ways to stop 4gate, especially since the warp on highground nerf.
Not to but a damper on your post, but hero cant do this build, but get the zealot. What you're saying is he delays the gas to get the zealot, which was NOT the aim of my build. My build was to get a relatively fast gas, instantly saturate it, and not spend excess gas in survival units like the sentry, but rather mobile, pressure units like the stalker. If you want an economic way to stop a 4 gate, feel free to read my other build which nets 26 probes and 7 stalkers and 2 zealots at the 6:05 minute mark. Again, this build may not be for everyone, just throwing it out there.
On December 06 2011 06:10 Payson wrote:
I've been seeing HuK do this build not only on ladder, but at NASL 2 grand finals. Is the main purpose of the build just to hold a 4gate? Obviously placing 400 gas into 8 stalkers will delay tech. What's the transition if he doesn't 4gate? If you hold the 4gate and he simply falls back, what's the best move? Be aggressive or start teching to something like Blink Obs?
I believe HuK beat Hasuobs with this opening on Shattered Temple when Hasuobs decided to 4gate.
Can you show me a replay of HuK doing this build? I've honestly not watched his stream for a while, and would be interested on his timings compared to mine. The 400 gas you put into 8 stalkers will not delay tech as long as you think. If you are getting blink first, for example, a player who drops their twilight earlier will NOT have the gas to continue stalker production with their blink. In that exact same situation, when you tech to blink after, you will NOT have the gas to continue stalker production either. That being said, 4 minutes later in each circumstance, both players will have an equal number of stalkers with blink, the only difference being the former had blink tech first, but not enough stalkers to do any sort of damage, while the latter is safer to early aggression.
To your question about the transition if he doesn't 4 gate? If you watch my replay vs. TT1, you can outright kill him. I understand people might say "oh you had a proxy pylon though"... he didnt have any sentries regardless. Even if that proxy wasnt in his base, I could've walked up his ramp and achieved the same victory. 8 stalkers isn't something that gets denied THAT easily.
In most of my games, I transition to what you said, blink obs. It allows the most versatility, but people are always shut down during the time interval when both buildings are being constructed. The 8 stalkers on the map will be more mobile than ANY early game army your opponent has (unless he does the same build) as he will have zealots, and you can buy yourself time, if not outright kill him with micro.
On December 06 2011 09:19 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 05:34 Arcanefrost wrote:
Hero has been doing this on taldarim, only he does get the zealot. I dont get why you would want to use this build on other maps, there are more economic ways to stop 4gate, especially since the warp on highground nerf. I'm pretty sure I've seen this opening done by other korean protoss players too but I forget which one. They do tend to get the zealot in exchange for a later 2nd gas.
Again, like my previous post, that means this opening is not the same. The only reason my zealot is building is for the security in case of a 2 gate or cannon rush. Even if they get the gas later too, the units will NOT line up as well as mine do, as the initial 300 minerals after my warp gate + stalker go to 2 gates, whereas the initial 300 of their builds would ALSO go into 2 warp gates. Alas, they build a zealot first, meaning their 2 gates are almost 5-10 seconds later, and considering my 3 stalkers pop out RIGHT as warp gate finishes, their timing wouldn't line up as well.
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Interesting build. I like the fake zealot into 2 extra gates part and I can see it being very powerful in terms of being able to hold off a 4 warpgate rush.
I've tried a few 3 gate builds that does 2 gas, and you really do end up with alot of surplus gas even if you are continuously pumping stalkers. If i successfully fend off a 4 gate with only 3 gates, it feels quite good and my followup is expansion straight away and preventing enemy expansion to secure economic victory. Personally I find delaying 2nd gas allows me to get an expansion up quickly after holding off the rush.
The beauty I find with this build is being able to surprise (I can see a 10 odd second timing window) the enemy when he strolls to your base with the zealot/stalker/probe with your 4 or 5 stalkers, letting you able to 'defensively pressure him' thus can snipe his zealot or probe fairly easily.
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I just dont understand the concept of faking the zealot. Any decent protoss will realize you cancelled it, thus giving away even more that there wont be a 4 gate. I think getting a later gas and getting the zealot is in fact better like the koreans do. Moreover, there's really no point of doing this on any other map besides tal darim...
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On December 06 2011 11:38 AxelTVx wrote:
I just dont understand the concept of faking the zealot. Any decent protoss will realize you cancelled it, thus giving away even more that there wont be a 4 gate. I think getting a later gas and getting the zealot is in fact better like the koreans do. Moreover, there's really no point of doing this on any other map besides tal darim...
It's not so much faking the zealot as it is having the zealot as a safety net if they proxy 2 gate and you dont scout it in time. You will 99% of the time lose to a proxy 2 gate if you dont build the first zealot, that's just the truth of the matter. Again, if you really dislike the build, don't do it, but my goal was to get a LOT of gas (which is the most PRECIOUS resource for Protoss), and not spend it in defensive units like sentries, but rather units that work towards you goal (aka blink stalkers)
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some suggestions..
The fake zealot only tricks them for the 30 second window, I would rather get a quicker 2nd gas
Also I suggest a chronoboost on your first stalker to force away the probe.
You also want to chronoboost your 2nd stalker depending on map.
This build works better if you don't scout for the extra minerals. You still need to send out a probe after 26/26 to put down proxy pylons. 34 pylon and onwards should all be proxied.
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On December 06 2011 12:43 W2 wrote:
some suggestions..
The fake zealot only tricks them for the 30 second window, I would rather get a quicker 2nd gas
Also I suggest a chronoboost on your first stalker to force away the probe.
You also want to chronoboost your 2nd stalker depending on map.
This build works better if you don't scout for the extra minerals. You still need to send out a probe after 26/26 to put down proxy pylons. 34 pylon and onwards should all be proxied.
Like I said before, the "quicker" 2nd gas doesn't work. That means instead of the following 300 minerals building 2 gateways, you need 375 before the 2 gateways. Quicker doesn't always mean better, especially when it has to do with gas timings. There's a reason why people dont just go 14 gas 16 gas. Your mineral saturation will be horrendous in comparison and you wont have enough minerals to even make stalkers.
A chronoboost on your stalker means 1 less chronoboost for your warp gate, which means 10 seconds of 4 gate in your face that you can't deal with.
I think your chronoboost "advice" is based off of different builds, as unfortunately this one doesn't allow you to carelessly misuse chronoboost, as it's a valuable asset in PvP.
This build was created by me, but if you really feel you don't need to scout til 26, be my guest. When proxy 2 gates or cannon rushes kill you because of the lack of 1st zealot in production, or a 11 gate 3 gate pressure hits you without you knowing, you might want to scout again.
Proxying pylons again is a personal preference. If I'm sitting back and want to take an expand with a robo follow up, why would I have to put pylon 34 and onwards "all proxied"?
On a side note, OP has been updated with new reps on ladder as I was streaming today!
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You should put all the replays in a zip together ^_^
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I am sorry, but while this build looks decent there is no need for more anti 4gate builds, actually a sentry is good for you since in later stages you will need 1 or 2 for GS and some force fields, also your build will be behind against any build that isn't 4gate.
And also how are you going to transition out of this? after so many stalkers i guess you will have to get blink, and that makes your predictable, so i really don't see this build being any good vs anything that is not 4gate...
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On December 06 2011 15:41 moskonia wrote:
I am sorry, but while this build looks decent there is no need for more anti 4gate builds, actually a sentry is good for you since in later stages you will need 1 or 2 for GS and some force fields, also your build will be behind against any build that isn't 4gate.
And also how are you going to transition out of this? after so many stalkers i guess you will have to get blink, and that makes your predictable, so i really don't see this build being any good vs anything that is not 4gate...
Again, this isn't an anti-4 gate build. Every PvP build nowadays has to survive a 4 gate however to be considered viable, and that's why this post was generally focused on that. That guardian shield that is so "useful" in your later stages can actually be focused down in 1 shot by a handful of stalkers, so with micro that sentry is again, dead weight. I agree though, that sentry might be useful, but again, in the later stages. As the name suggests, unless this is a diamond level match where both sides sit on their newly acquired natural and macro up to 200/200 colossus with upgrades, then maybe this build is flawed in that sense. However for a master or grandmaster player, you want to be always applying some sort of pressure to your opponent.
If you watch the replays, you can see how I transition out of it lol. Yes, blink might be predictable, but when you hit a certain point on ladder you realize blink is ABSOLUTELY necessary. Blink stalker base race situations are not what you want to run in ever, and every protoss eventually gets blink. On the flip side, I normally go robo blink, which is about as hard of a transition as you can get o.O
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Awesome, always love your build write ups because of the detailed explanations behind your decision making. Tried this a few times on the ladder, it works like a charm because it crushes a 4 gate, but still isn't overly aggressive, meaning that if he doesn't 4 gate, you can skip the first warp in and throw down whatever tech you want. The obvious followup is blink stalker, but there is no reason you can't transition into either robo or stargate.
Awesome job dude!
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Thank you for the guide, always looking for different things to try in PvP. I hate this matchup
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Thanks for this guide. The build looks very cool.
I was wondering if it would be possible to get a slightly faster scout or if that would mess up the timings too much. On closer spawn ( like close by air on metal or shattered ) I like to use Adel Scott style two gate zealot pressure into expand and that build opens 12 gate 14 gate. So I'd really like to have the scout reach the closer spawn by 14 and branch into one of these two build once I know their location.
Is an earlier scout possible? If so are there any changes you would make to the early chrono with a scout on 10-11 rather than after the gate? Thanks
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@SaroVati
Why do you assume i am diamond-, that is offensive! :p anyways if a sentry is behind your main forces it will be much harder to snipe it, and what it does it basically gives you 2 armor and shield upgrades at 100-200 gas cost, now that is worth it even if there is a chance of your opponent sniping it, not to say that most of the times even in master and GM league people have a hard time focusing it out with all the micro going on.
Also, you can't really pressure someone in PvP, since if you try to go up his ramp he will split your forces and kill free units, so against a tech build your opening is just weak.
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I will say that TWICE on 4 player maps, I scouted the guy last and he was proxy 2 gating me. Already cancelled the zealot TT.
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First of all hey and thanks for sharing this awesome build. im masters eu toss and i have 2 questions for you:
1). Instead of faking a zealot, wouldn't stealing your opponents gas be better? I know that you are 75 minerals behind but that way you are delaying their tech way too long while you can still hold a 4gate. or can't you? are the timings that thin that if you steal their gas, you straight up lose to a 4gate?
2). You say stalkers are always useful in a PvP and i fully agree to that, but what if your opponents goes mass immortals, f.e 1gate into robo into 2 more gates and chronoboosts non-stop immortals? how will you transition out of that? expand and zealot charge into archons maybe, while your stalkers contain him? i would like to know how would you deal with that (i watched all the replays you provided and didn't find any similar situations).
thanks
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On December 07 2011 02:41 Fred Flintstone wrote:
First of all hey and thanks for sharing this awesome build. im masters eu toss and i have 2 questions for you:
1). Instead of faking a zealot, wouldn't stealing your opponents gas be better? I know that you are 75 minerals behind but that way you are delaying their tech way too long while you can still hold a 4gate. or can't you? are the timings that thin that if you steal their gas, you straight up lose to a 4gate?
2). You say stalkers are always useful in a PvP and i fully agree to that, but what if your opponents goes mass immortals, f.e 1gate into robo into 2 more gates and chronoboosts non-stop immortals? how will you transition out of that? expand and zealot charge into archons maybe, while your stalkers contain him? i would like to know how would you deal with that (i watched all the replays you provided and didn't find any similar situations).
thanks
The timings are very, very thin. The reason you cancel the zealot is that you NEED the money to be able to get all of the stalkers out on time. Keep in mind that when cancelling units you do get 100% of the money back, so there is no cost associated with cancelling it.
As to your second point, I've been finding that the Stalker contain is really important. I think one of the flaws of the build is that your tech is slightly delayed (compared to a faster tech build). While you can skip your first round of warp ins in order to get a tech building, in my games I've been finding the early stalker contain to be really beneficial, as it gives you a bit of room to breathe at the same time as it keeps your opponent from expanding.
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On December 06 2011 22:12 General_Winter wrote:
Thanks for this guide. The build looks very cool.
I was wondering if it would be possible to get a slightly faster scout or if that would mess up the timings too much. On closer spawn ( like close by air on metal or shattered ) I like to use Adel Scott style two gate zealot pressure into expand and that build opens 12 gate 14 gate. So I'd really like to have the scout reach the closer spawn by 14 and branch into one of these two build once I know their location.
Is an earlier scout possible? If so are there any changes you would make to the early chrono with a scout on 10-11 rather than after the gate? Thanks
Earlier scouting would probably be possible actually. You should be able to scout on 10/11, but the chronoboost would be the EXACT same. Your build would be 3-4 seconds slower, which MIGHT make a difference, but then again as you said in your example, if you figure out the opponent is cross map rather than close by air, the walking distance for the 2nd stalker in a 4 gate will also be late, so it shouldn't affect you that much. Still gate on 12 and chronoboost right afterwards, the rest should remain similar.
On December 07 2011 00:15 moskonia wrote:
@SaroVati
Why do you assume i am diamond-, that is offensive! :p anyways if a sentry is behind your main forces it will be much harder to snipe it, and what it does it basically gives you 2 armor and shield upgrades at 100-200 gas cost, now that is worth it even if there is a chance of your opponent sniping it, not to say that most of the times even in master and GM league people have a hard time focusing it out with all the micro going on.
Also, you can't really pressure someone in PvP, since if you try to go up his ramp he will split your forces and kill free units, so against a tech build your opening is just weak.
I apologize if you are offended by that, but realistically I haven't seen many masters level protoss sit idle the entire game and a-move. The "deathball" a-move protoss gets ineffective after diamond to be honest lol.
What you said is kinda contradictory though.... You told me my build is stagnant and the only transition is blink, then you tell me now I can't pressure unless I go up his ramp and get split. If I take an expansion with robo blink:
a) he wont FF me and trap me, I have blink.
b) if he's on one base, I will base race him and win
c) if he attempts to expand, I can blink harass both his front and his main
How does this build straight up lose to any tech builds? 10 minutes in, regardless of if you rushed tech, or saved up the gas, we should be even in terms of tech.... oh and expect that you spent 100 of your gas in a sentry that doesnt benefit your tech, whereas my gas in my blink stalkers benefits my blink upgrade....
On December 07 2011 01:58 Sceptre wrote:
I will say that TWICE on 4 player maps, I scouted the guy last and he was proxy 2 gating me. Already cancelled the zealot TT.
Really?  Usually the first zealot of a 2 gate proxy will finish 10 seconds before a standard 12 gate zealot comes out because it it chrono boosted, and it is dropped at 10 or 11 supply. That really shouldn't happen unless he's hiding all his zealots til he gets 3, which would lose outright to ANY standard stalker play or scout
On December 07 2011 02:41 Fred Flintstone wrote:
First of all hey and thanks for sharing this awesome build. im masters eu toss and i have 2 questions for you:
1). Instead of faking a zealot, wouldn't stealing your opponents gas be better? I know that you are 75 minerals behind but that way you are delaying their tech way too long while you can still hold a 4gate. or can't you? are the timings that thin that if you steal their gas, you straight up lose to a 4gate?
2). You say stalkers are always useful in a PvP and i fully agree to that, but what if your opponents goes mass immortals, f.e 1gate into robo into 2 more gates and chronoboosts non-stop immortals? how will you transition out of that? expand and zealot charge into archons maybe, while your stalkers contain him? i would like to know how would you deal with that (i watched all the replays you provided and didn't find any similar situations).
thanks
unless you cut probes, the 75 minerals will put you too far behind. The build itself BARELY squeezes out the stalkers in time, and by cutting probes you limit yourself to less-than-optimum saturation for your mineral line on 2 gas, which is never a good thing. I think the timings aren't THAT thin, but by stealing their gas you limit your own transition as well.
For your 2nd question, usually I go robo blink. If the opponent goes mass immortals to expand, you can blink in his base and abuse his lack of mobility HARD. Also, you can FF his ramp with an outside sentry and blink in and end the game if he's not prepared.
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I would attribute it more so to my opponents being sloppy. Literally the second after I cancelled the zealot, a zealot walks right up my ramp.
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Thank you for answering all the questions so vigilantly, you're awesome for doing so ^^
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I've been having pretty good results using this opening to transition into phoenix. If your opponent is playing a defensive robo build, he will often overreact to your high early stalker count, forcing him towards building more immortals/sentries at his ramp.
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Yeah it does provide a safe opening to tech to stargate... I might actually try that branch a bit more. If they are teching to blink, you should be able to safely scout it AND have 40 seconds of harass too... looks promising for a solid build that incorporates harass Problem is I think fast DT's would wreck you, but if you saw a high zealot count at the ramp, I guess you could just go robo and probably win :D
Any other attempts at transitions are also welcome, please tell me how they go, or even post a replay!
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this build sound well,but...what i can do if my opponent gas steal me?
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On December 09 2011 23:21 EpicFail83 wrote:
this build sound well,but...what i can do if my opponent gas steal me?
You gas steal him back. If you see him take his 2nd gas, there's a high chance he doesn't have the money to take yours... Remember you are taking your gas at 22, whereas the standard FASTEST gas possible is 21 lol.
If you DO get your gas stolen, you could take an expo or attempt to break him down with a 4 gate.... you are opening quite similarly to a 4 gate actually, so if he takes his own gas AND yours THAT early, you should be able to just kill him outright.
My personal response is expo though, especially on a map like shakuras, where i can build my 2nd and 3rd gates at the choke and create a solid wall for any 4 gate pressure if he decides to do it.
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just tried it out with my pvp practice partner. it works remarkably well, and it isn't too difficult to execute either.
the best part about the build is the flexibility, after you have crushed the 4gate, you can do whatever you like; you can add more probes, add more gates, add a robo, the world is your khaydarin crystal.
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I try this build too and work well.I think can work also on taldarim for crush four gate...or not?i veto taldarim because is very boring start every pvsp with four gate.....
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decimates 4gate on taldarim altar le
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i can supply replays of this build pwning the 4gate, both the regular kind and the fastest 4gate on taldarim altar, if you like
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Glad to know it's working for you And yes to the other question, it crushed a 4 gate if executed correctly. That being said, you need more micro than the 4-gater, but that's all up to you
A question selendis, how do you normally follow up? As you said, you can do anything you want practically with 2 gas and like 200 gas in the bank, but I'm wondering what you prefer. Is it as predictable as people say if you go blink stalkers? Or do you go robo blink for cheese-security?
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This build looks promising. I tried it in a few custom games and it works surprisingly well. I wouldn't jump right into ladder with it though. I feel like it needs a bit of experience with since the timings are actually quite crisp and you gotta learn to deal with different strategies from your opponents.
I will definitely throw this in once in a while into my otherwise quite robo-centric play style.
Thank You Sir!
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Thanks for the guide, been trying it out and it works great. It completely crushes 4 gate if done correctly. I've been trying to play other things then robo openings but Iately but I havn't been able to find something that works as well as this. Thank-you again!
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I’ve tried this out a lot and I have to say the replays seem very unrepresentative of how the games play out in my experience. In a lot of the replays the 8 stalkers move-out, poke up the ramp, and kill a few enemy units and sometimes even do real damage. In my experience, the enemy Never fails to force field the ramp, and whatever unit poked up the ramp (usually a probe, but maybe a stalker) Always dies.
Slightly less than half the time when they see your eight stalkers at their ramp they warp in a few zealots from their proxy pylon (which isn’t near your base, but somewhere out on the map) and walk them into your base and heaven help you if you are between warp cycles because you lose 20 seconds of mining time while your probes evade the zealots.
I’ll likely keep using this as a very turtlely build that’s safe from 4 gate and transitions nicely into blink, but I really just don’t understand how the build could ever actually succeed at applying pressure without a serious choke from the opponent.
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On December 19 2011 07:11 General_Winter wrote:
I’ve tried this out a lot and I have to say the replays seem very unrepresentative of how the games play out in my experience. In a lot of the replays the 8 stalkers move-out, poke up the ramp, and kill a few enemy units and sometimes even do real damage. In my experience, the enemy Never fails to force field the ramp, and whatever unit poked up the ramp (usually a probe, but maybe a stalker) Always dies.
Slightly less than half the time when they see your eight stalkers at their ramp they warp in a few zealots from their proxy pylon (which isn’t near your base, but somewhere out on the map) and walk them into your base and heaven help you if you are between warp cycles because you lose 20 seconds of mining time while your probes evade the zealots.
I’ll likely keep using this as a very turtlely build that’s safe from 4 gate and transitions nicely into blink, but I really just don’t understand how the build could ever actually succeed at applying pressure without a serious choke from the opponent.
so you are a protoss that blindly runs up a ramp and loose units stupidly? you need to bait forcefields, not actually run up and loose shyt.
I will gonna try this build against some practise partners soon, and i will post my results soon ^^
Tech
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I want to clarify what exactly you mean by bait force fields. What I do is move most of the stalkers to near the base of the ramp, and then 1 guy runs up the ramp get vision. Then while I have vision, the stalker mob down below tries to focus fire one of his units on the high ground and keep doing this until the guy giving vision is killed and a force field gets planted behind him.
Typically the probe trades for some damage on a sentry and the first stalker to poke up lets me kill the sentry and get some damage on another unit. Then a last unit ( often a zealot built for this) pokes up and either sees a bunch more sentries or an immortal and the attack is over.
Then I slink home having lost a probe, stalker, and zealot for killing a sentry and getting hull damage on two stalkers. Obviously, it can vary; sometimes he misses a force field, or I can focus fire two sentries and just charge in and wreck up the place, but the above is how it typically goes, ie not well.
How should someone try to bust a ramp with 8 stalkers other than poking up one guy at a time and using vision to focus fire?
Lastly, I do want to note that although I have doubts about the early pressure I do really like the build. It's safe in the early game and has very smooth transitions and good game flow.
edit: removed iphone auto corrects like staplers for stalkers, and minor grammar points
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Winter, the general idea is that unless you need them, it is smarter to not get all 8 stalkers. Depending on my read/the pressure that is coming from the other protoss, I usually only stick with the initial 5, then add robo/twilight. You would be surprised how effective those 5 stalkers can be at applying pressure, usually you can bait a ff, if not get them to build more sentries, especially if your opponent is being greedy. You get bonus points for faking two pylons at the base of their ramp, then they will really panic. If he has anywhere near similar amounts of units as you move your 5 stalkers across the map, you can be pretty sure that he has done some sort of delayed 4 gate.
The more I play with the build, it seems really geared towards a robo blink followup. I kept trying to force DT-> charge/archon to work, but it seems very finicky as the DT's come out very late, and your opponent is probably going robo/blink himself to try and counter the threat of blink stalkers. It's also a bit redundant because you already have map control.
Phoenix followups seemed like a good idea for a while, but in practice I find that because they are a bit delayed compared to a standard phoenix opener, you end up in a very rough spot vs someone that is also opening phoenix. If they can maintain their phoenix count, they will always have more phoenix than you, which is a pretty terrible situation.On the plus side, you are in a very good spot if your opponent goes for stargate play and you go robo blink. You already have a high stalker count to deter the harassment, and even better you don't have any vulnerable sentries he can snipe.
The one thing that really worries me are DT rushes, because your obs comes out quite late even if you throw it down immediately after the first 5 stalkers. It's possible for your opponent to deny scouting up his ramp for long enough with FF's that it can be difficult to react in time to block your ramp. I'm thinking it might be best to build a choke at your ramp with your 2nd/3rd gateways in order to block DT's in case of emergencies. I've also been toying with getting 2 observers, but that seems like a lot of gas at a time in the game where you are trying to maximize your stalker count.
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So I've been using this a lot lately (ran into it once on ladder as well, but the guy didn't execute it properly), and I made a small modification that I find very helpful. Sarovati uses his 3rd chronoboost on probes around 16, however in my experience, it is slightly safer to cut probes at 16 to build your core, then use the chronoboost on probes once you resume probe production. Your core ends up being a little bit quicker (meaning a slightly faster stalker/warp gate), but it also gives you a little bit more time to find your opponents base. I feel a lot more comfortable defending a proxy 2 gate or a canon rush by chronoing out my first zealot, if I get the chance.
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I got to play a custom against a GM toss. ( Ian diamond) and I ended up doing pretty well. forced a base race and ended up losing but not bad for a diamond player
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An absolutely brilliant build that has shot in to my most used PvP BO. It transitions well and if performed crisply, holds the 1gas 4 gate well.
The amount of games ive won outright with the 8 early stalkers is comical.
Thanks a lot SaroVati!
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Glad to see it's still working for people out there
And Sceptre I've been doing that almost exclusively now as well, the extra chrono and speed of the cyber really helps vs. either a proxy 2 gate or a straight up 4 gate
As a side note, for those trying to micro during the 6 stalker 1 zealot vs. 8 stalker situation, you should just try to stutterstep the zealot and THEN go for stalkers. Often protoss's try to snipe the stalkers outright and that allows the zealot to do a lot of damage. If the stalker count is 6 (for you) to anything 3 or UNDER, you have to snipe the stalkers, as you can 2 shot each one and the zealots will die quickly after
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On December 20 2011 04:56 Sceptre wrote:
The one thing that really worries me are DT rushes, because your obs comes out quite late even if you throw it down immediately after the first 5 stalkers. It's possible for your opponent to deny scouting up his ramp for long enough with FF's that it can be difficult to react in time to block your ramp. I'm thinking it might be best to build a choke at your ramp with your 2nd/3rd gateways in order to block DT's in case of emergencies. I've also been toying with getting 2 observers, but that seems like a lot of gas at a time in the game where you are trying to maximize your stalker count.
I've also had some DT troubles.
example game v DTs http://drop.sc/80095 (note: not a well played game, just an example of rushed DTs)
In this case, I see a proxy pylon and so warp in stalkers 6, 7 and 8 in case he is aggressive with gateway units and start robo and twilight a bit late. Even if I had skipped the last 3 stalkers though, his DT shrine finished at about 7 which is sooner than an obs would be possible.
Has any one else hit these fast DT rushes and how have people been responding?
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Saro I use this build exclusively PvP. It is really working out well for me, thanks!
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If you see the proxy pylon, warp in your 3 stalkers, and no 4 gate comes, be aggressive. You will reach his base at 6:30 latest, and when you poke up his ramp and see 5-7 zealots and like 2 stalkers, guess what is happening? Warp in sentries (you have 30 seconds to do this) and camp your ramp til robo finishes. FF + chrono obs will be out in time. If you REALLY feel unsafe, build 3 pylons at the top of your ramp, or just hold position your stalkers on your ramp. The latter will lose a few units / money, but used in conjunction with FF, you will have a 0% chance of losing to rushed DT's.
On a similar note, a DT rush THAT fast requires a FAST gas and instant saturation. When scouting this, what is the chance he actually is trying to 4 gate you o.O? Even if it is a fake, that's a potential 150 minerals wasted into his 2nd gas and mining time, which means delaying your 3 stalkers for a faster robo is completely safe.
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Updated the OP with a lot of newer replays, as well as the modification by building my 2nd and 3rd gate on the ramp of my natural to bait a 4 gate, but also allow the possibility of expanding (omg in PvP????) if you see zero aggression from your protoss counterpart. Please critique it, and any grandmaster / high master protoss's can ask me for a few games to test it out. If you have some amazing reads, I think that this might allow a safe expo off 2 gas and 3 gates!
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Any build that can defend a 4 gate without a single sentry, while spending this gas on stalkers, can probably transition into a really dangerous blink stalker all-in, or even a phoenix-stalker push (if you expand,) so I'm definitely gonna watch out for people canceling the zealot now!
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Gotta say, this build is so SO dangerous. I'm 11-0 since using it PvP, just simply making carnage on their ramp or defending on mine, and transitioning blink/obs or Expo if they aren't dead yet. My opponents simply don't expect the sheer number of stalkers I can deliver to their base! With micro, you lose 1 stalker for every 2 units defending (Units shooting below FF, kiting).
I don't have the final answer on when to drop the council, when to expand, when to just robo and go, but I'm learning which of them work.
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Haha glad to see you are still getting it to work To be honest I'm still not 100% clear as to what reads I should see to expand, go robo, go twilight, go stargate etc., but I hope you've realized you have the gas and sim city at your natural to do really whatever you want I'll add a few more recent reps to the OP as well
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hello guys, first post around here.. nice web though, i´m from venezuela, and i´m plat atm, nice build, gonna try..
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Ack!! Why did I not see this thread when it was first started lol, I have been 3 stalker rushing into blink obs for the longest time because I fucking HATE dieing to 4 gate and sentrys suck in PvP. I also really like the zealot cancel thing for them cannon rushers. I will have to give this a try in my next PvP
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i really want to proof myself againts you guys..
pls add me.. i want a leats a match
yunkeacme@gmail.com
cod: 987
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Added more reps to the OP, including more expansion variants that have been working at the GM level (I'm currently top 25 so I guess it's working well?) And if you want some practice games I could play you when I'm not so busy If anyone is breaking any ground in efficiently using their excess gas after the pressure, please tell me! It seems when I go my 5 stalker --> expand --> 2-3 sentry warp in my money pans out nicely, but when I warp in 8 (and kill them 50% of the time) I seem to float 400-500 gas and cant get rid of it unless i drop 3 sentries, a robo, a twilight all at once
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hi.. i have tried your build and it works for me at least 5 times, and even works againt terran lol .. gimme you user so i can add you
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EPT
