EPT[D] DT Expand PvP why it might be safe - Page 2
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dementrio
678 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46503 Posts
On October 25 2011 23:19 Nothingtosay wrote: If you are doing a one base robo timing attack how are you going to have gas to make an immortal (You will probably get one), an observer but most likely two, have a sentry at home (remember if you miss the forcefield you die if you have only one obs) and have enough gas units in your army to kill off the other player? The same way dark templar openings always lose to robotics openings >.> They can kill 4gates but the robo tech hard counters it lol. This isn't anything new. You simply aren't able to do any harrassing with the dt as long as you have an observer and especially if you're not dropping in the opponent's base. And if you're worried about gas, I hear zealots are pretty good, especially when your opponent is going melee units and you want to get colossi. I don't even see how this is an issue o.O | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On October 25 2011 22:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: If they attack you quickly with blink stalkers (before your expansion kicks in), can't you fall pretty easily simply because you don't have enough units out? After all, the general rule of PvP is "Whoever expands first, dies". This general rule you refer to is nonsense. Expanding is still relatively rare in PvP and often in the past expanding first could lead to a loss but that is hardly the case anymore since patch 1.4. Longer research time for blink in addition to change of vision up ramps made blink rushes much easier to hold. In addition to that immortal range got buffed making it even easier to stop blink stalkers from pickign you apart. As a result a robo-expand (immortals + some gateway units) easily stops blink attacks as long as you didn't expand/boom to greedily. Ofcourse it can be tricky to know exactly when to put down the nexus as this depends on what sort of blink build the other did but when done well the robo player is usually ahead, the exception here is when a map favors blink play much more then it does robo play and good blink abuse is very hard to stop (shakuras is a nice example). Anyway getting a bit of topic here, but expanding is becoming more and more standard in PvP especially since robo play has gotten more popular. Robo builds are often good at defending pressure and poor at being aggresive so it's only logical that 1.4 led to PvP being MUCH more about expansions.. afterall the blink tech route got nerfed and the robo got buffed. | ||
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Nothingtosay
United States875 Posts
On October 25 2011 23:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: The same way dark templar openings always lose to robotics openings >.> They can kill 4gates but the robo tech hard counters it lol. This isn't anything new. You simply aren't able to do any harrassing with the dt as long as you have an observer and especially if you're not dropping in the opponent's base. And if you're worried about gas, I hear zealots are pretty good, especially when your opponent is going melee units and you want to get colossi. I don't even see how this is an issue o.O Past DT builds focused on ending the game with dts plus a follow up attack if necessary. This build takes an early expo and doesn't die to a counteract when things go as planned. This is not the same as previous 1 base dt builds. My problem isn't that you're saying it will die to robo builds, my problem is the fact that you're using data from different scenarios to evaluate this one. What you're describing is a build like this one from MC vs Naniwa due to the meta game at the time you could not expand because four gate was supreme unlike today. Yes if you are on one base and the dts are foiled you are so behind that you will lose. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46503 Posts
On October 25 2011 23:40 Nothingtosay wrote: Past DT builds focused on ending the game with dts plus a follow up attack if necessary. This build takes an early expo and doesn't die to a counteract when things go as planned. This is not the same as previous 1 base dt builds. My problem isn't that you're saying it will die to robo builds, my problem is the fact that you're using data from different scenarios to evaluate this one. What you're describing is a build like this one from MC vs Naniwa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cj-wDX3-WU&feature=player_embedded#! due to the meta game at the time you could not expand because four gate was supreme unlike today. Yes if you are on one base and the dts are foiled you are so behind that you will lose. I see. Well perhaps this will cause an interesting shift in the metagame  | ||
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Nothingtosay
United States875 Posts
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On October 26 2011 01:16 Nothingtosay wrote: Added a new replay vs fourgate. Using the sentry build it was very easy to beat. I just watched the replay. The guy you were playing didn't execute his 4gate correctly, the timing's a bit off and he should've had the proxy pylons set before the warpgate finished. Even so he busted up the ramp. He had enough time to make a robo and obs but for some reason he decided to warp in 2 sentries after hearing the dts and didn't have enough gas for an obs. -______- He also should've pulled his probes a lot faster. That dt got 8 probes before he even responded to it. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
it worked, back when no one used warp-in pylons over the ramp, died out because of it. the changes to pvp have made it again alot more stable. my problem is that it a coinflip build vs. very fast dt's and loses alot of value if it gets more common. | ||
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Nothingtosay
United States875 Posts
On October 26 2011 02:53 K3Nyy wrote: I just watched the replay. The guy you were playing didn't execute his 4gate correctly, the timing's a bit off and he should've had the proxy pylons set before the warpgate finished. Even so he busted up the ramp. He had enough time to make a robo and obs but for some reason he decided to warp in 2 sentries after hearing the dts and didn't have enough gas for an obs. -______- He also should've pulled his probes a lot faster. That dt got 8 probes before he even responded to it. Well if you notice I didn't send my dt as soon as I warped it in, I thought I told it to go but I didn't and it should have been in his base much earlier. Also even if I didn't get in his base I would have stabilized and had map control | ||
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Thenno
Netherlands33 Posts
I like to steal gas, it lets you scout a bit and denies them a fast robo. Also sentries are the only unit which can mess with dark templar if there's no detection. I use one gate and add another later while gas is stockpiling for Dark shrine. Warping in one or two dark templar is enough, send one to their base and just startle him, try to deny his detection, scare his probes, smack a pylon, just make him spend his APM on something else than macro'ing. I've seen both forge and robo responses, the forge is basically an auto-win since you can just power probes for the next 3 minute on two bases. Once his robo is up and he will attack, your archons and speed zealots will clean up whatever he can throw at you from one base. If he goes robo you can usually force him to build alot of pylons around it, waste a lot of sentry energy or unpower it and continue havoc. If they open robo and you haven't stolen gas, the time the DT hits his base is about the same time his observer hits yours. If he didn't make his 2nd, you're looking pretty good. Will continue playing with it and post my build order once it's refined. Thanks for this build, it's finally fun to play PvP again | ||
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Harbinger631
United States376 Posts
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Nothingtosay
United States875 Posts
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
I certainly think there's some potential in that build. In fact I've been, doing a similar build myself, faking an agressive 4-gate just to expand and teching DTs ( if they've got obs, I go archons ). So it's not like I believe this type of build cannot work. Just that those replays demonstrate nothing. In fact, the main problem I have with those replays is that they're examples of successful DTs rush rather than expos. In all of them, you've successfully ended the game, or did severe damage, without the help of the expansion. The problem here is that it's kind of a coinflip. The typical example is this: in none of those replays your opponents have scouted you, seen that you're heavy on zealots while they've scouted 2 gas earlier, and thought "okay, there's a chance of DTs, I should keep an obs in my main". That's really sad. Show us some replays where your opponent scouts and reacts accordingly, and where you can't do any successful damage to their economy, while they prepare for a timing push to punish you, and that will go a long way at convincing everybody that this build is doable. | ||
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GleaM
United States207 Posts
I'm high masters Protoss and as someone who likes the DT, I can honestly say it is a dice roll, because with good observer management you straight up die to robo tech. | ||
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Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
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UchihaAndy
Sweden15 Posts
Some might say that my twist to this is a bit crazy, but here it goes. I will not be so detailed here. 1. Open with pretty fast DTs and expand when you feel safe enough. 2. Put down a stargate and a robo right after exp. 3. Harrass with DTs. Buy time. Make him need 2 obs or obs + cannons to move out. 4. Chrono out an obs and a few phoenix and take as much gas as you can while securing a 3rd (before 9:00). Here you might get a bit worried about me. How the hell could I hold anything off when spending so much money on tech and expansions? A good bet (you offcourse dont have to bet when you have both obs and phoenix to scout with), is that he now feels very confident and is on his way with his big robo/gate-force off of one base. 5. Snipe his obs/obses with your phoenix while/before his army engages your 6-7 DTs. Remember that his army will priorotize your ground army and your phoenix will hit his obs first, unless he has col which forces you to micro a bit. 6. He will now either return home (good for you, 3 base vs 1) or kill your natural while suffering heavy losses (also pretty good for you since you still will be up one base and many probes). How you use this advantage is up to you, I cant say that I know whats best from this point but dont be afraid to attack him if he hasnt done cannons. If you take out his obs with phoenix, he cant do anything to stop your sweet DT-force. You have great transition possibilities since you already have robo, stargate and twilight. Im at work now, but if anyone wants to see replays - I can post later. | ||
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DrKillface
Australia106 Posts
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Flamebringer
Australia3 Posts
Daily #439 The basic concept is the same as the OP, the opening game showcases the use of DT play to completely limit your opponents ability to move out and take an expansion off the back of it. I have personally started doing it on the ladder, getting a lot of wins vs Robo and non robo players alike. With a little scouting, 4gates just die straight up, so do 2 gate expo, stargate expo, etc. It really limits your opponent to 1 base robo play. The transition out of DT is expand => 5 gate zealot production Add archons from the DTs Throw down 2 robos and a robotics bay => Colossus production from the gas you saved | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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