EPTits like fighting. the stronger person will win 90% of the time, unless the other person gets a lucky nutshot or something. knowing taekwondo or judo or whatever wont help if you dont have the strength to use it.
[D] Why us lower level players hate "macro better" - Page 31
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courtpanda
866 Posts
its like fighting. the stronger person will win 90% of the time, unless the other person gets a lucky nutshot or something. knowing taekwondo or judo or whatever wont help if you dont have the strength to use it. | ||
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rawler
United States156 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On October 16 2011 17:59 rawler wrote: I disagree Alex--- if you are weak, your only hope is to learn allt he nut shots and kidney shanks avaialble... likewise, if you suffer from terrible macro, your only hope could be an amazing strategy To beat someone way better than you once or twice, maybe. To improve to the point where you can consistently beat that player even after he has seens your one "amazing strategy", you just need better macro. Period. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
Good macro is like the Rocky Balboa approach to strategy. Sure he has difficulty with such concepts as "ducking" and "blocking" and gets punched in the face 500 times a match. But he just wins anyway through the brute force tactic of not falling over and repeatedly slugging his opponent till they give up. | ||
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tjosan
Sweden120 Posts
On October 16 2011 17:59 rawler wrote: I disagree Alex--- if you are weak, your only hope is to learn allt he nut shots and kidney shanks avaialble... likewise, if you suffer from terrible macro, your only hope could be an amazing strategy Or you make sure to get stronger. Especially if you havent trained for strength before it would only take a few months to do amazing progress. It's the same with basic macro and mechanics. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
Cool  What league were you in when you started that learning technique and how long(in games or time) did it take? | ||
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courtpanda
866 Posts
On October 16 2011 18:13 tjosan wrote: I disagree Alex--- if you are weak, your only hope is to learn allt he nut shots and kidney shanks avaialble... likewise, if you suffer from terrible macro, your only hope could be an amazing strategy thats the equivalent of cheese. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
When a player is at a lower skill, there are many ways to improve. One say, the bucket can hold as much water as its lowest plank. Well, sometimes it's worth to brush up strategy if that's the lowest plank, there's no use improving macro if the only thing you know is mass zerglings with amazing macro, for an extreme case. Sometimes improving on game sense is very important as well, so a blind "just macro" is definitely not the best way at all times | ||
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DminusTerran
Canada1337 Posts
Don't ask for a build order or some other bullshit, efficient build orders are discovered through efficient play. Look at the errors you make over the course of a game. Chances are even if the overall strategy you were doing was fuck awful and stupid you still could've pulled it off by using: proper transitions, scouting, macro, unit placement/movement and most importantly not flipping the fuck out when things start to not go the way you planned and instead analyzing the situation and deducing the most efficient and reasonable response. Not saying it'll all come in one big rush. Or that you'll ever be able to hammer out every single error always, but that's pretty obviously the way to get better it's not like it's a super secret. God I hate tl so much. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On October 16 2011 18:19 Monkeyballs25 wrote: Cool What league were you in when you started that learning technique and how long(in games or time) did it take? Took a week to get to high diamond. I just learned the baneling bust build in beta. Last build I copied exactly is Stephanos baneling bust build, it's really effective all in in ZvZ. Before that, it was NesTea's simplified way of dealing with forge expand. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On October 16 2011 19:03 aebriol wrote: Took a week to get to high diamond. I just learned the baneling bust build in beta. Last build I copied exactly is Stephanos baneling bust build, it's really effective all in in ZvZ. Before that, it was NesTea's simplified way of dealing with forge expand. Nice one! Sounds like a point in favour of the "learning an offensive early attack build really well first" approach. People have mentioned similar successes with 4gates, 3/4 rax plays and so on. I mean looking at the liquipedia entries for baneling bust vs hatch first The baneling bust adaptation entry amounts to, can you win with your lingbling? Yes. Make more lings and blings. No. Expand and tech. The hatch first build order stops at 15 food and has 3-4 pages worth of adaptations to different types of aggression. And Destiny's ZvZ build goes all the way to 50 food and has absolutely no notes on adaptation. Probably because either the all-in succeeds or you lose right there. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On October 16 2011 19:37 Monkeyballs25 wrote: The baneling bust adaptation entry amounts to, can you win with your lingbling? Yes. Make more lings and blings. No. Expand and tech. Do you want to improve? Post some replays and I'll tell you what you do wrong ... The point about Stephano's baneling bust build is that it is a more effective ZvZ build because it's faster than 14gas 14 pool but it doesn't leave you with spare resources to expand if it doesn't work out. It's not a build suited for a followup play, but it's not quite as all in as 6-10 pool buids. It's a way to win baneling wars vs someone that goes 14 gas 14 pool into baneling nest without expanding. It would never work in ZvT and ZvP because if scouted, easy to deny with simcity. The point is that you should copy exactly what pro's do. To the letter. You just have to have several builds: - At least 1 for ZvZ (if just one, I recommend a variation of 15 hatch and just dealing with the losses against 6-10 pools). - At least 1 for ZvT with two variations: one vs fast expand (1 rax expand, rax factory expand), one vs 1 base builds. - At least 2 for ZvP (1 vs forge expand, 1 vs 1-3 gate, with knowing how to identify a 4 gate and defend it). Now, if that's too problematic, you can just do 14 gas 14 pool 20 expand in all matchups and just live with ling speed. It's not as good an opening as having several different ones, but it's middle of the road effective vs everything. And builds vs forge expand in ZvP easily go up to 70-80 supply, without having any major deviations until then. Following exactly what the pros do with several different builds suited for the matchups will get you to master. Following exactly what they do with one standard build without deviations or worrying about the matchups will get you to mid high diamond easy. | ||
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
"Guys, we know we need to macro better. But when we ask for strategy help, could you actually try to answer the question?" 30-page responses: "You need to macro better. Also, you don't know what you're talking about." And this is the community that lauds itself as "helpful, mature and welcoming". Well done, TL, well done. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On October 16 2011 20:44 aebriol wrote: Do you want to improve? Post some replays and I'll tell you what you do wrong ... The point about Stephano's baneling bust build is that it is a more effective ZvZ build because it's faster than 14gas 14 pool but it doesn't leave you with spare resources to expand if it doesn't work out. It's not a build suited for a followup play, but it's not quite as all in as 6-10 pool buids. It's a way to win baneling wars vs someone that goes 14 gas 14 pool into baneling nest without expanding. It would never work in ZvT and ZvP because if scouted, easy to deny with simcity. The point is that you should copy exactly what pro's do. To the letter. You just have to have several builds: - At least 1 for ZvZ (if just one, I recommend a variation of 15 hatch and just dealing with the losses against 6-10 pools). - At least 1 for ZvT with two variations: one vs fast expand (1 rax expand, rax factory expand), one vs 1 base builds. - At least 2 for ZvP (1 vs forge expand, 1 vs 1-3 gate, with knowing how to identify a 4 gate and defend it). Now, if that's too problematic, you can just do 14 gas 14 pool 20 expand in all matchups and just live with ling speed. It's not as good an opening as having several different ones, but it's middle of the road effective vs everything. And builds vs forge expand in ZvP easily go up to 70-80 supply, without having any major deviations until then. Following exactly what the pros do with several different builds suited for the matchups will get you to master. Following exactly what they do with one standard build without deviations or worrying about the matchups will get you to mid high diamond easy. So you got to high diamond with a baneling bust build that...no longer works in 2 of 3 matchups? Or maybe I misunderstood. Anyway, not important. Most of your post is a tautological argument. "If you want to be really good, copy the things that really good people do, then you will be really good". Of course its true, but it doesn't mean its useful advice! The problem with the "just go with this one speedling expand build in all matchups" thing is that it stops at 20 food. Then you just...do stuff. Its like giving someone the first 4 moves in a chess opening and then saying "well just adapt to what the opponent is doing". You could write pages and pages of text on the different things you need to do after that, and people have done so many times in various guides. What I'm getting at is that some builds basically encompass a whole game. Like 4gate, Destiny's 2base roach/ling all-in, and the 3rax SCV all-in. With *those* builds I can see the logic of "just copy this build perfectly and get to diamond". Then you have stuff like 3gate Expand, speedling expand and...whatever the Terran equivalent is. Sure you can copy the opener perfectly and have a nice economy if you survive any cheese or other pressure, but then the perfect roadmap is gone and you get into "scout to see what he's doing and react appropriately" aspect, when one build branches out in atleast half a dozen options. Also my replays are dotted throughout this thread, you can get them from my profile posting history if you fancy taking a look. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On October 16 2011 21:26 Monkeyballs25 wrote: So you got to high diamond with a baneling bust build that...no longer works in 2 of 3 matchups? Or maybe I misunderstood. Anyway, not important. Most of your post is a tautological argument. "If you want to be really good, copy the things that really good people do, then you will be really good". Of course its true, but it doesn't mean its useful advice! The problem with the "just go with this one speedling expand build in all matchups" thing is that it stops at 20 food. Then you just...do stuff. Its like giving someone the first 4 moves in a chess opening and then saying "well just adapt to what the opponent is doing". You could write pages and pages of text on the different things you need to do after that, and people have done so many times in various guides. What I'm getting at is that some builds basically encompass a whole game. Like 4gate, Destiny's 2base roach/ling all-in, and the 3rax SCV all-in. With *those* builds I can see the logic of "just copy this build perfectly and get to diamond". Then you have stuff like 3gate Expand, speedling expand and...whatever the Terran equivalent is. Sure you can copy the opener perfectly and have a nice economy if you survive any cheese or other pressure, but then the perfect roadmap is gone and you get into "scout to see what he's doing and react appropriately" aspect, when one build branches out in atleast half a dozen options. Also my replays are dotted throughout this thread, you can get them from my profile posting history if you fancy taking a look. Those build orders can reach 100 supply. You're either refusing to look past 20 supply, or you're watching all of the replays where they're forced to respond to voidrays denying their third, or dt's running into their main before their turrets finish or something. Find the games where the pro is left to their own for the first 10-15 minutes with minimal pressure and they'll lay out their build order, nice and plain. Even day9 covers these builds to great extent. Also, the quote is semi-flawed. A well executed build order takes you to masters, but you need the mechanics behind it. As it's been re-stated over and over, work on specific parts of your play until they all culminate into near flawless macro whilst executing beyond the build. It'll immediately take you to mid-high masters. You aren't practicing the build; you're eliminating the variable of multiple builds to focus on mechanics exclusively. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On October 16 2011 21:26 Monkeyballs25 wrote: Most of your post is a tautological argument. "If you want to be really good, copy the things that really good people do, then you will be really good". Of course its true, but it doesn't mean its useful advice! I give up on you. ... Read that again. Of course it's true - but it's not useful advice? What the fuck is wrong with that advice if it's true? It's a 100% proven tried and true way to get really good. And it's not useful? And I did write up what you did wrong in one of your replays in this thread, apparently, you didn't follow the advice there. To me it really, really simple: If you want to get better, don't bother thinking. Don't bother strategizing. Don't bother with anything like that. Download a replay from a pro. Note exactly what they are doing for the first 6 minutes of the game in each matchup. Practice vs computer until you can do the same thing within 5 in game seconds margin. Profit and get to diamond. At least. It really really is that simple. If you are gold and below, you are just having a really, really bad opening. You are doing stuff wrong at the start. Really wrong. It's fact. How to fix that? Copy from someone who knows what they are doing ... It takes you a couple of hours to learn to copy a build ... I don't understand why you don't just do that. You will get so much better almost instantly ... Oh, and the baneling bust off 14 gas 14 pool? It still works to diamond most of the time ... it's just that what I meant by the latest build I copied, was a different specific variation that is quite effective even at higher levels on some specific maps. Edit: if by 'not useful' meaning 'not something I want to do' then write that. It's the most effective, fastest way for you to improve your game. | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On October 16 2011 22:03 Micket wrote: knowing 10 depot 12 rax 13 gas 15 orbital 15 marine is just as important. . That's macro though ... build orders are the very essence of what you practice when you practice macro. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On October 16 2011 22:03 Micket wrote: When Silver level players want to know what to do strategically, saying 'don't focus on strategy just focus on macro' is certainly not what they want to here. Sure, good macro will give them the fastest rate of improvement, but knowing to get Vikings vs Colossi and Ghosts vs Protoss and Marines vs Zerg or knowing 10 depot 12 rax 13 gas 15 orbital 15 marine is just as important. Not telling these players basic stuff will also not allow them to get better. They can make anything they want as long as it's macro'ed well and isn't completely retarded i.e. mass roach vs carrier. If a silver level player comes in asking for a composition posting a replay of his loss and his macro is a major factor, do you expect everyone to sit back and simply tell him how he engaged incorrectly when it's compounded by the poor macro? | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
On October 16 2011 08:49 UmiNotsuki wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 16 2011 08:45 GHOST87 wrote: I understand both sides of this very well since i have been on both sides. let us rephrase the term "macro better" and say "WORK HEAVILY ON MECHANICS!!!!" mechanics are not the only things that will get you to master but they are an extremly extreeeeemly important foundation to strengthen on your way to becoming a great player mechanics are so key that u can ALMOST throw everything else out the window. TRY THIS-> watch a replay of some Grand Master you like that plays your race (not a cast mind you the real replay) and try to match everything he does exactly. play against a very ez ai on the same map v the same race u saw the gm play against in the replay. doing a perfect mirror will not be ez but its your whole focus... win or lose it doesnt even matter just get it as close as to what the GM did as u can. take notes about everything throughout watching the replay... so u can have ur notes help u do the same exact things when u play. some suggestions on notes to take: what time did he do it (when did he make a building/unit, when did he scout, got gas/tech, built supply, when did he expand 5min?6 min?13min? etc..)? also what was his food count when he did it (9/10, 50/50, 130/175,etc)? what was his bank like (100 minerals 100 gas, 50 minerals 200 gas,etc)? how saturated is the base or bases (double click or ctrl click a miner to see how many rows of miners u see... 2 rows in his main, 2 rows +4 in his natural, etc) take note of all of the above and any other notes u find important throughout the whole game at the start and finish of all events like, starting of a push/end of the push, or starting a building/completed the building, started tech/tech finished, expansion started/finished/saturated with miners. also mix in while doing all of the above..... take some side notes of the army size, composition, and positions on both sides. note when the armies moved, and where they moved to, where did they lay in wait and where they engaged in battle. preffereably watch a win against a race you have trouble with... the more replays vs a certain race u watch the more openings u will become familiar with and map specific issues u will see. watch mutiple replays of all match ups vs ur race if u can stand to. so far with this alone if u watch a replay u should be able to say for example... the zerg finished his lair at 8:42 he had 68/68 supply 509 minerals 276 gas. also started producing 3 overlords. he had 9 roaches and 20 lings moving toward the enemy. had 3 rows of drones and 2 gas in the main, almost 2 rows and 1 gas in the natural...this should be a ever changing paragraph that u fill in basically throughout the game... this is now your framework---your foundation of good mechanics when you play u should see u have things very close to exactly the same as the replay. u dont even have to move out with those units to attack or scout, just make sure u get timings right, just watch ur base very closely maybe even only looking at ur base and play a very easy ai if u have to just so u can get down the timings. u will start to notice maybe u stopped builing miners at a certain time, or maybe u stopped production at a certain time.... things like getting supply blocked or a building that is producing nothing should never happen... having a ton of gas and no money doesnt always mean spend more gas, it usually means u made something too soon or too late. the replay notes help u never stop having something to do NVR JUST SIT AND WATCH SOMETHING HAPPEN... ALWAYS BE INVOLVED WITH BUILDING OR MOVING SOMETHING. having a big bank is almost always bad. take note of how that big bank gets dumped in the pro replay... maybe producing a bunch of buildings to then make a bunch of mineral or gas costing units with. making lots of something that balances your econ is usually a good way to dump. have too much money? make zlots or rines or lings.. still too much minerals?... make gateways, rax or hatchs so u can make more rines, zlots and lings at a time DO NOT HAVE UNITS WAITING IN LINE TO BE MADE just keep making more as they finish or are half way or more complete... MAKE MORE BUILDINGS INSTEAD of lining up something to be built. too much gas... get tech... make tier 2 or tier 3 units, still too much make more buildings to make more gas units. the more replays you take notes on the better. watch like as many replays vs a race as u can... u will see what adjustments are made to this framework...sometimes its a small difference due to the map or other players style of play... sometimes its huge. NOW WHAT!?!?? now you keep on keeping on... you have a mechanic to perfect... which includes everything from teching to expanding and pushing or defending. notice the timings change each game but only slightly and for a very specific reason and when you know the timing you will learn the reason. when you learn the reason u will fix it and get better all on your own. fixing timings becomes a fun way to improve you will notice...losing means your improving if u watch what made you lose and what timing could have helped u win...winning means you did some stuff right and the other guy did a lot wrong. just cuz you won doesnt mean your timings are right and can make you get into a pattern of losing if u dont pay attention to the mechanics of why u won and y the other guy lost. include what he should have done to win...and then factor in a timing for you to beat that with a mineral or gas dump at some point before the time he should have done that something better to beat u... and u will improve even when u win your framework should allow you saturate bases fast and max out fast with a mix of making enough miners and having enough production buildings to keep your minerals and gas low 1000 minerals = 20 marines... if u have 1000 minerals and 1 rax and i have 1000 minerals and 20 rax i can have 20 marines by the time u have 1 marine. same money count but my mechanics will out produce you and i will win very easily good mechanics means at 10 min if i hit you with 1 colosi and 4 stalkers... u will already just have enough to kill it cuz you always do. or if not ready right then u will know that in 30 sec-1min u will have enough to kill it, u didnt even have to scout it... tho you should have seen it coming.. or delayed its coming like in the replays. good mechanics means always making a steady progress toward the late game and having the most u can have at that point in time when it comes to units/upgrades/buildings/scouting info, what ever... when you have good mechanics your game will improve incredibly faster than a player who does not work on his mechanics. he just complains that he wants to learn a better strategy to beat your great mechanics not realizing that he CANT beat u with some strategy cuz no matter what he makes its slow and not constantly pumping... u are ahead in, economy, food, production, tech u name it ur better. he can only play you to help you work on perfecting your own timings so u beat him, faster, stronger and with more each time cuz he is not improving... he just a living punching bag.... someone tell him to go "macro better" this is not a game where someone can say a strategy that makes you play better if your lower level..without mechanics u cant even perform a strategy...you may win a game with a strategy if u learn it.... but you will win a tournament with good mechanics....sorry but there has not been discovered an ez way to just win all the time...and when there is....there will be a patch for that HOLYSHIT use your enter key. I've never said this before, ever, but... TL;DR. Also, grammar goes a LONG way in encouraging people to hear you out. L2Spell. Epic wall. | ||
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