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On October 14 2011 23:09 Slyce wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 21:52 Monkeyballs25 wrote:On October 14 2011 20:40 Slyce wrote:On October 14 2011 11:39 Belial88 wrote:Blind, raw macro will get you to diamond. Masters. Masters NA, Diamond EU. What's with that btw? Is there a big population of...erm...starcraftically challenged people in the US propping up everyone else's rankings or something? I think it is just due to proportions actually. The ladder is done on percentages and there are just more NA accounts therefore the skill level needed to get into Master League is a bit lower. I think, I could be wrong but I got friends who have accounts on NA and they say it is a bit easier to climb up the ladder.
You are wrong, masters on NA and masters on EU are pretty much the same (at the bottom of masters). Once you reach high masters on EU there are a lot more pro players so the chance of you hitting scrubs from NA who cheese every game is a lot lower.
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You can benefit from understanding and being able to apply strategic/tactical theory in the lower levels. Higher level players can and should help lower level players understand some of these concepts (surface area in engagements, rules for when to attack, when to expand, etc.).
The problem is that the most common way to develop this theory comes from trial and error. Without mechanics, learning theory by trial and error is largely a waste of time, as your "results" will always be tainted by your weaknesses in macro, e.g. did I lose this battle because my unit composition was bad or because I got supply blocked right before the battle.
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Being in Silver I have read threads that read "What happened at ten minutes when he rolled me" and the answer was "Macro Better" instead of "Spread troops/micro better/composition issues". I look at the response and think to myself "He didn't answer the question, he answered with a nonsequitor"
If I may be so bold as to suggest: Providing two separate answers may help.
One answer being macro oriented (build probes, harvest more, build more crap than the other buy).
One answer being micro oriented (what went wrong at that point in the game).
I realize that macro issues will drive the micro issues (more probes = more stuff) but people don't always want to hear that answer. So providing the answer that is needed (ie macro better) will go down better when answering the question that he asked (micro/unit composition).
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This is just silly. If your stuck in a zilver or bronze or even gold, you just dont understand the game that well. Your coming here asking for help and you get honest answers from better players. Of course macro better is the answer because at 10 mins I can get a better army than someone in a lower level can.
And stop with this WHAT IF bullshit. So many different things happen EVERY game and you just have to experience it do avoid it in the future. "WHAT IF IF ATTACK AT A BAD ANGLE AND LOSE??????" Answer : dont attack at that angle for the next game on that map. Jesus christ
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wow the first 2 responds are kinda terrible (no offence lol)
TLDR: It's not that strategy is bad, but improving macro will generate far better results than improving unit composition and tactics.
Last edit: 2011-10-06 20:49:33
Yes we know that.
Focussing on macro will yield better results then focussing on strategy.
The op did never denie that, you are missing the point
The point is that although focus on macro will yield best results,
focus on strategy also will lead to better results then not trying to get better or focus at all.
Not everyone likes to focus on macro.
Beside getting better, having fun is also a reason to play this game.
Focussing on strategy is just alot more fun for manny people, and even though it is not the "best" way to improve your results, it is a fun way to improve your results
TLDR if a low lvl player asks for advice on strategy, dont be a noob at reading and reply with an advice on macro,
Azzur Australia. October 06 2011 20:57. Posts 2642
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You may think that strategy is something that you can use in the next game - but you are incorrect. For instance, lets say you lose to a "timing push", but it was found that your macro was poor. The reason you lost is not because your opponent had some magical composition or an immaculate timing; rather, you lost because you didn't execute well.
yes you can use strategy even if you dont execute it perfectly,what you say is absolute nonsense
Pro,s demonstrate this every day,
None of them executes even the first 5 minutes close to theorethical perfection yet they all make good use of strategy
Strategy has an effect at every lvl of execution, a low lvl of execution will still be better with strategy then without
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I've been trying to improve my macro because of this whole thread. I've focused mainly on worker production, not getting supply blocked and not floating minerals over 1k. I have to say that "macro better" does improve your game GREATLY.
To give an example, I'm silver and I was matched with silver. It was TvT match. I never missed a beat on my worker production and made sure to get the OC up for MULEs. My opponent missed about 5-6 SCVs, so I was ahead in worker count. I push out in 11mins with 2 medivacs full of marines with +1 upgrades and shields. I decimate his worker line, then he opts to base-trade but his army was crushed with my marines and tanks camping in my base.
It's amazing how much of difference 5 or 6 workers can do to your game, and have a mental note to just pump out shit.
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I think anytime you're incorporating some fancy scouting, harassment, micro or other non macro stuff you should look at two things.
1) Did my macro slip while doing that stuff?
2) Did the stuff I lost out on outweigh the benefit I gained from whatever non-macro stuff I did.
Obviously if you need to micro a bit to ward off some hellions or banshees harass and save 10+ drones , that'll probably more than compensate for missing an inject or piling up a few minerals. But if you're just picking off an SCV or saving one or two stalkers with retreat micro, even a small macro slip as a result would leave you at a net loss.
One thing I've noticed when switching from mutalingbling to roachhydra is that mutalisks are an ENORMOUS black hole of an APM sink. You have to constantly babysit them to make sure they don't wander into a fight they can't win(like say a dozen marines...or a missile turret), and if you don't use them to harass and exert map control and pick off tanks etc they're hardly worth the investment anyway. They were literally the number one reason why my midgame macro was so bad.
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I've only played two games since I got sc2, and this is why "macro better" is correct.
http://drop.sc/44521
He was a silver? Is that the normal skill level for silver?
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Obviously you can't improve macro overnight, but a lot of these players are right to say that you should focus on macro.
The biggest reason a masters player would tell you to work on macro is because the meta-game in silver is completely different than in masters. Unit compositions, strategies, and even timings are different from silver league to grand masters. In Grand Masters, it's viable to go DT/Warp Prism on two bases, or even viable to fake a hellion rush into expand. This is because 1) they have the APM and 2) their opponent reads and reacts to things like unit composition and timings. In silver league the best thing to do is to build an army and kill the opponent.
Lets say I watch your replay and you do a MM drop in their expansion at 12 minutes. I could tell you that was a bit late for a drop because they have turrets, or that you shouldn't drop after forcing them to build anti air; but honestly there is too large of a gap in timings and such a big difference in play styles at that level of play.
Build orders, timings and the whole meta game in general changes, basic fundamentals, mechanics, and solid macro is mostly a consistent. I know telling you this will not help your gameplay today, nor is it new information to you, but it justifies why people tell you macro, macro, macro.
All that being said, I understand your point and personally love to analyze the specific play-by-play of a replay. Your point is not void, telling you what you already know if pointless and you came to these forums to learn something new. People should always keep that in mind when giving feedback.
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On October 15 2011 04:45 DamageInq wrote:
The biggest reason a masters player would tell you to work on macro is because the meta-game in silver is completely different than in masters.
Actually, it's because if you spend 2 hours working out the basics of your build by copying exactly what a pro does for the first 6 minutes of the game, you will roflstomp everyone in silver 90% of the games by going for a straight up match - and just live with the 10% cheese losses.
That's why we say focus on macro.
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On October 15 2011 04:54 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 04:45 DamageInq wrote:
The biggest reason a masters player would tell you to work on macro is because the meta-game in silver is completely different than in masters. Actually, it's because if you spend 2 hours working out the basics of your build by copying exactly what a pro does for the first 6 minutes of the game, you will roflstomp everyone in silver 90% of the games by going for a straight up match - and just live with the 10% cheese losses. That's why we say focus on macro.
Hah! If only cheese was a 10% thing. Regardless, lets look at some of the common things pros do in the first 6 minutes.
-execute 2rax bunker pressure, or defend against same with mostly drones
-1 stalker/1 zealot harass
-2 marauder/3 SCV harass
All while macroing perfectly, I assume.
But I assume you just meant a standard 1base build like 3rax stim timing or 4gate or 7RR. In which case I'd absolutely agree, if you can execute the macro portion of that perfectly, you'd hardly need to micro anything else. I just think you have to be careful with "just copy the pros" advice, because some of the stuff they do is actively detrimental in lower leagues because the APM just isn't there to support it.
And here's another gold ZvP game on the "macro+generically useful unit comp>micro, scouting and fancy unit comp" theme.
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)Tamerlane_vs_(P)HateSeason/14415
Hell I even mess up and delay my queen a bit, though I think my macro comes out a bit better later on. I don't need corruptors for his colossi, I don't need to worry about what units he has or where he's putting his forcefields. Because those are apparently all countered by large numbers of roaches and hydras.The only real elements of game sense I'm using are
-expect a big attack around 7 minutes
-have detection and stuff that can shoot up by 7 minutes
-have overlords around the base perimeter
-have detection and a small anti-harass detachment at 3rd+ bases
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On October 15 2011 04:15 DigiGnar wrote:I've only played two games since I got sc2, and this is why "macro better" is correct. http://drop.sc/44521He was a silver? Is that the normal skill level for silver?
Yeah looks about right. But tbh I think this is a good example of how knowing the right response to harass is key to good macro. If he'd had his first stalker out on time to meet your reapers I think he would have had a much easier time with his macroing. And he has a poor sense of how powerful his gateway army is vs your marines. But yeah if he'd kept up his constant probe production and expanded on time he'd have crushed you easily.
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I am in bronze. Most games, I only get supply blocked at most once, for a duration of about 10 seconds. I always expand from 4 minutes to 7minutes, I chronoboost probes along with almost constant probe production. I normally have 5-6 gates and 1 robo with twilight and forge by the end of a two base game. My only weakness is not making units always on cue. With all this above, would I still be considered a crappy bronze player?
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On October 15 2011 07:49 (kimi)YaSu wrote:
I am in bronze. Most games, I only get supply blocked at most once, for a duration of about 10 seconds. I always expand from 4 minutes to 7minutes, I chronoboost probes along with almost constant probe production. I normally have 5-6 gates and 1 robo with twilight and forge by the end of a two base game. My only weakness is not making units always on cue. With all this above, would I still be considered a crappy bronze player?
As opposed to a good bronze player you mean? 
Kinda hard to say much without replays. If you're not already on your way out of bronze, my guess would be one of
-you're dying to cheese or early pushes. If you're expanding at 4 minutes, that sounds like Nexus first or FFE, pretty risky. If that's the case and you're not having any macro problems while dying to same, you'd need to either improve your scouting and crisis management, or switch to a safer, later expo timing.
-your macro isn't as good as you think it is. What's helpful is getting a higher skilled friend or trying to find a replay of someone doing a similar build to yours, and seeing how much more food they have after X minutes. "not making units always on cue" is quite vague, could be a few seconds here and there on a warpin cycle, or building up a 5k trust fund 10 minutes into the game 
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Well, Destiny mass Queened his way up to Diamond, so like hell does strategy matter when your macro is bad. I personally mass Stalkered my way to Diamond a while back, I wasn't even paying attention to how many Warp Gates I had, I was just making Probes and spending my money.
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On October 06 2011 20:38 sfbaydave wrote:
Everyone thats reads anything on these forums understand the basics of the game. We all realize, especially at the lower levels that macro is the fundamental aspect in any game that determines the winner or loser. Whenever I see a thread from a lower level players asking for advice..its always the same response, "Dude, forget the replay....work on your macro!!!"
But the frustrating part is sometimes we lose because of wrong STRATEGY. I know this sounds silly to the higher level players out there...."How can you use strategy when u miss injects, are supply blocked, etc." But it does happen....and when it does, we come here asking for advice. But, sometime its hard to get advice, as soon it becomes known, that we are silver/gold players.
Another frustrating part is that us lower level guys know we need to work on our macro but its not something you can change overnight. Working on never missing an inject, macroing during a big battle, never being supply blocked are things that even diamond/masters players work on. Having perfect macro is something that some people may never even be able to achieve. We just might be too slow or our multitasking may never be at a great level.
But what what we can improve quickly on is our knowledge of the game. We may not have time to spend playing 10-15 games everyday but do have time to read up and ask how to counter a certain build I see. And it will help us immediately in our next ladder game.
I am not trying to be one of those silver guys who say, "but I play up to a diamond level..." Most of us know why we are in the level we are. We know our MACRO SUCKS but that doesnt mean we can't use strategy. Strategy wouldnt matter if I'm playing a much better player but in ladder were are evenly matched.
So, please take it easy on us lower level guys and help us out. Remember most everyone was where are at some point.
I don't understand why it's so hard for players to improve below the diamond level. I've watched some lower level players play, and I think the main problem is that they don't think when they're playing. What do you mean when you say your strategy is wrong? It's not very hard to know that you don't use roaches against marauders, or you need antiair if you're suspecting banshees, and you need to tech or get spore crawlers when you suspect DT or something. But the problem is, you're not doing it. something about your brain... I don't know. but seirously, its' not that hard.
1- macro
2- use your brain to figure out what units to make
3- ...
4- diamond
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On October 15 2011 07:49 (kimi)YaSu wrote:
I am in bronze. Most games, I only get supply blocked at most once, for a duration of about 10 seconds. I always expand from 4 minutes to 7minutes, I chronoboost probes along with almost constant probe production. I normally have 5-6 gates and 1 robo with twilight and forge by the end of a two base game. My only weakness is not making units always on cue. With all this above, would I still be considered a crappy bronze player?
if you're bronze, you're pretty bad, so yes. if u switch from toss to terran, u would probably be in high plat or diamond if you just have one marine/marauder/medic build order that you play every single game until you got it down cold.
also, don't constantly make probes. you only need 16 probes on minerals per base, and 6 on gas. (2 probes per mineral patch and 3 per gas).
this is just common sense. yes, forums are supposed to help you, but they aren't supposed to think for you. if ur brain just can't seem to get there, then you'll never be good at sc2 much less anything else that requires well... thinking.
User was warned for this post
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This is in response to the people who responded to my post.
I see your point. Maybe I'm overinflating game sense (although I never said macro wasn't important).
But what about cheese? When I was lower level I often lost because of unscouted proxy pylons, factories being lifted into my base, nydus canals, banelings, four-gate, marine-SCV allins, banshee timings, DTs, and the like. What is the solution here? Higher-level people don't cheese because their enemies know how to scout and counter, but you can't say the same applies to lower-levels.
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I'm a masters terran and I worked my way up from silver over the summer. To improve your macro as terran I would recommend picking a build in which you can que up one extra unit on each production facility. This will allow for a little more wiggle room for you to micro. Eventually you will develop a sort of tick in your mind when you need to produce more so you do not miss a production cycle. Once you've got the rhythm down you can start to improve your play in other ways.
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On October 15 2011 08:30 LoneWolf.Alpha- wrote:
if you're bronze, you're pretty bad, so yes. if u switch from toss to terran, u would probably be in high plat or diamond if you just have one marine/marauder/medic build order that you play every single game until you got it down cold.
also, don't constantly make probes. you only need 16 probes on minerals per base, and 6 on gas. (2 probes per mineral patch and 3 per gas).
this is just common sense. yes, forums are supposed to help you, but they aren't supposed to think for you. if ur brain just can't seem to get there, then you'll never be good at sc2 much less anything else that requires well... thinking.
This is wrong. Full saturation is 26-28 workers per base. you should have about 20-22 on minerals and 6 on gas...maybe you should have used your brain before posting.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
