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Hi there, this is a 3v3 strategy for a team with a Protoss, Terran, and a Zerg. This build is somewhat of a harass type build, that is meant to be used against a 3v3 team with atleast 1,(preferably 2) zerg opponent, if your opponents don't have any Zerg among them, I don't suggest trying this. I think this build should give the team good map control, but is mainly defensive. (btw i haven't really tested this build, I couldn't find any partners to try it out with, but i'm quite certain it should work.)
MAIN IDEA:
Protoss:
+ Show Spoiler + The main objective of the Protoss in this build is to achieve air dominance with mass phoenix early and midgame. With your phoenix you should, in the beginning mass around 4 phoenix, and scout around and look for overlords to snipe. You can also try to snipe workers, ground units that can't hit air, or just scout throughout the game with these phoenix. Note though, phoenix are weak against Battlecruiser, Vikings, Corruptors, Void Rays, Thors, and Archons. So if your opponent decides to mass one of these units to counter your units a transition into carriers if your opponent goes into a ground force that counters your phoenix is suggested, but they mass air units like vikings or corruptors, then you should transition into a ground army as well.
Rough Build Order (this was my build order the first time i tried it)
+ Show Spoiler +
10pylon
12 gateway
15 assimilator
16 assimilator
18 zealot
18 pylon
18 cybernetics core
-------> during this period and before you actually start your stargate, I'd suggest that you make some zealots for defense, unless its a map where you're positioned together with your teammates and you feel safe.
20 warp gate
22 gateway
22 pylon
24 stargate x 2
then start phoenix production right away. Once you start your phoenix production, you'll notice that you have lots of extra minerals and not enough gas, with these extra minerals I would get some zealots to help your teammates with defending, but if you feel that your base is well defended, expand and drop two more assimilators and two more stargates.
Zerg
+ Show Spoiler +The Zerg's job in this build is to try to deny any expansions and also control the map with the help of the phoenix. Early game, the Zerg should mass speedlings and get bannelings as well. If your opponent happens to a terran who goes blue flame hellion I suggest burrowed roaches, or mutalisks
Rough Build Order
+ Show Spoiler + (btw i'm not a zerg player so this build may be completely awful, it's just a build my friend tried once in a 4v4, please post a correction/new build order if I have something in mine that is bad or if you have an order that is better
10 overlord (optional you can do that extractor trick and have 11/10-12/10)
14 extractor
13 pool
--------->start metabolic once you have 100, and you can take off the drones, or leave them on to stockpile gas if you decide to get your bannelings kind of early(that's what the player did in this build), and start queen when pool is finished
16 hatch -------> either as macro hatch if you need the extra lings (which the player did when he was playing this game), or if you feel that your opponents are going to turtle and not push any time soon, use the opportunity to expo
16 extractor
15 baneling nest
24 hatchery ---->this is the first expansion in the build
then take it however you want from there
Terran
+ Show Spoiler +Okay so the main plan for the terran is to go for a mech build, and this mech build is to be siege tank heavy with thors. Try to get the siege tanks and siege tech out fast because your role is the defender of the base in this build.
build order + Show Spoiler +sorry i'm actually an awful terran player and don't have any build order for mech build, but here is a basic build order or opening for mech that i found online
10/11 Supply Depot
12/19 Barracks
13/19 Refinery
15/19 Marine
16/19 Factory
16/19 Orbital Command
17/19 Refinery
18/19 Supply Depot
22/27 Factory
What is the point of these specific units?
+ Show Spoiler + I'll be honest the main idea of this build order is based off theory, and some observations i've made while playing the game. Going mass phoenix should encourage your opponents to go for either:
Terran: Vikings, Thors
Zerg: Corruptors or Hydralisks
Protoss: Archons maybe even Void Rays or Phoenix
If the Terran does decide to go Vikings, i'm assuming that he doesn't plan to go mass vikings, whereas your main objective was to mass phoenix right from the start, so you should be able to easily out mass him, but if for some reason he has more, then you should probably stay back and tech up to carriers. If the terran decides to go Thors, your defensive siege tanks and mass lings should be able to counter that. And finally if the Terran decides to go mass marines, not only the siege tanks, but also the bannelings should be able to deal with it.
For the Zerg, if they go Corruptors, it's the same idea with the vikings, they'd come out much slower, and the Zerg probably didn't plan on going mass corruptors, so you should probably be bale to easily kill it off. If Hydralisks, hydras are known to be slow off creep so kite around and hit somewhere where they aren't defending/where there's little creep, and if it actually forces the zerg to mass hydras, then your defensive siege tanks and banelings should be able to take care of them.
For the Protoss if going mass phoenix encourages the protoss to go mass voidrays, then the Terran on your team's Thors should be able to handle it, and also like the corruptors and Vikings, it would probably take them some time to mass enough air to deal with your phoenix. And if archons, well then just stay away from them, because the only thing that would probably counter the archons are the siege tanks, and the thors.(also archons are slow i'm sure you could kite around them.)
So the main idea of this build is to use zerglings and phoenix to harass throughout the game, and to force your opponents to transition into a unit that will be countered by yours.
Possible Weaknesses
+ Show Spoiler + In a map where the spawn locations of you and your teammates have you separated, the only thing that may kill of one or more of you are early rushes(cheese). So if you feel/scout that your opponents are going to cheese you, the protoss should do a gateway forge opening, the terran bunker up, and the zerg... well the Zerg is pretty much dead, unless he can get off some fast lings and spinecrawlers and with the help of his teammates somehow block it. Also a unit that can counter this build hard, probably infestors, infestors can fungal growth phoenix, lings, and bannelings completely annihilating them.
So use map preferences! try to get a map where your team is bunched together in one base, with few ramp openings.
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sometimes i play around like this for fun but frankly if you're allowed to build 2 gas before core in 3v3 and not die it's 100% because your opponents made the mistake of not being aggressive early
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On September 18 2011 13:29 Keilah wrote:
sometimes i play around like this for fun but frankly if you're allowed to build 2 gas before core in 3v3 and not die it's 100% because your opponents made the mistake of not being aggressive early
Yeah that's the only weakness i can think of for this build atm, if your opponent pushes early, then you're pretty much screwed in an individual map, but I think in a group map with the terran + Protoss wall off with a bunker added in it should be able to handle a little bit of early aggression.
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Let me get this straight... if they manage to get air dominance via vikings, void rays, or corruptors... you go carriers?
Seems weak to any air play other than mutas. And since mutas and corruptors are the same tech...
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On September 18 2011 13:57 LAN-f34r wrote:
Let me get this straight... if they manage to get air dominance via vikings, void rays, or corruptors... you go carriers?
Seems weak to any air play other than mutas. And since mutas and corruptors are the same tech...
I would tech up to carriers only because i just dislike void rays, and the transition to carriers would be better if your opponents have a large ground force, if they have mass vikings, transition to ground. Earlier and midgame, the chances that your opponent is deciding to go mass corruptors or even mass vikings as their main build is slim, while the protoss main objective is to just mass phoenix, so he should have more phoenix than your opponent's corruptors/vikings, so they would at best have a handful of either one, which your phoenix should be able to take care of.
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If one of your enemies is Protoss though it seems like the easiest counter would be to just go mass stalkers which would nullify the mass air for (your teams) Protoss. Terran would just mass up marines, etc. It seems really dependant on your opponent going for something other than staple units with the exception of Zerg who would have to tech to muta/corruptor.
It sounds fun though. Id be willing to try it
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Honestly the protoss has some of the best units (mass colossi, archons, templar) and instead of capitalizing on that you force them to go down a terrible tech route. If you have a terran and you want air dominance then go vikings, they are cheaper and by far more cost effective and will barely cut into tank production. also tanks are only viable on some maps. A lot of the 3v3 maps have multiple attack routes which make mass tanks a liability, plus if your going mass phoenix then you wont have the ground support to cover yourselves when you push out. Your much better off going chargelot archon with a bunch of storms then feeding the zerg so they can mass some lings to eat damage and make a ton of broodlords to sit ontop of some tanks and the terran provides some tanks and vikings to maintain air superiority. The zealots provide good dps and act as great meatshields for the tanks and archons. the splash from tanks and storms will crush anything they throw at you. And if the game lasts long enough then you have broodlords and basically an untouchable composition. Mass phoenix get shat on by marines, 1 thor (lololololol wut u gunna do vs a thor with phoenix lolololol ez win), blink stalkers or any build that goes for a quick expo or two. (you wont have enough phoenix to be an issue and you wont have enough tanks to be scary until later on in the mid game so they are free to either push you early or macro up and roll you when you try to push out) dont forget the zerg can only do so much by themselves, and lings only go so far in a 3v3. Your also very vulnerable to DT's because your toss went stargate and your zerg isnt quick teching to lair.
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Also going carriers vs vikings void rays or corrupters is a terrible idea. You just wont be able to make enough carriers to be able to overcome their air advantage, and carriers when focus fired die extremely fast, even battlecruisers decimate cariers if they have yomato cannon. If they start to pump any of those units just abandon the skies and switch into a heavy ground unit in an attempt to make their food and resources they dumped into air useless.
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Sorry, this wouldn't work against any skilled team with 2 zergs. Why? Because EVERY skilled team with 2 zergs will be aggressive in the early game.
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On September 18 2011 13:29 Keilah wrote:
sometimes i play around like this for fun but frankly if you're allowed to build 2 gas before core in 3v3 and not die it's 100% because your opponents made the mistake of not being aggressive early
Not true, double gas works fine if your allies are pressuring with early units. If your ennemies are going for early units as well, then your allies can defend you with defender's avantage long enough for you to adapt your strategy. This is for shared base maps of course. On separate base maps, then yes double gas is suicide.
To OP, seems to me that your army composition is an interesting mid game idea but as others have pointed out, will fail hard in the early game. There's actually nothing wrong with opting for safer openings to defend against early rushes. In case your ennemies aren't rushing, you can use your units to plan a pressure timing attack while you tech to your desired composition behind that ?
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@Sightbain
Yeah I realize that vikings are cheaper, and are actually stronger then phoenix, and would work well with tanks, but they don't have the same abilities that phoenix have, nor are they faster than phoenix. If you were to try and harass the mineral line with the vikings, you'd have to drop them, attack, then lift them up again, with phoenix you simply graviton them one at a time, which is, in my opinion, a lot safer. And the one Thor even an Archon can't be gravitoned, but the speed of a thor/archon are really slow, and won't even be able to keep up with the speed of a phoenix, the only units that would easily kill them, are the infestors or blink stalkers. And btw forcing your opponent to go thors is part of your game plan, like i mentioned in the post, thors are weak against lings which is a part of the main force your zerg teammate is supposed to go. Same thing with Blink Stalkers. If they go rines then they just get destroyed by banes or even siege tanks, if your opponent starts to mass a lot of aa to fight the Protoss's phoenix, with air i've already written that you should switch to a ground force, if they have ground units that counter you, i said to tech to carriers. A lot of your complaints i've already written explanations to, but this build is still very susceptible to early agression.
I'll try to test this build out with good teammates in like a platinum + level game to see how it works, and post a replay as soon as possible.
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On September 19 2011 00:35 thePROtoss wrote:
@Sightbain
Yeah I realize that vikings are cheaper, and are actually stronger then phoenix, and would work well against tanks, but they don't have the same abilities that phoenix have, nor are they faster than phoenix. If you were to try and harass the mineral line with the vikings, you'd have to drop them, attack, then lift them up again, with phoenix you simply graviton them one at a time, which is, in my opinion, a lot safer. And the one Thor even an Archon can't be gravitoned, but the speed of a thor/archon are really slow, and won't even be able to keep up with the speed of a phoenix, the only units that would easily kill them, are the infestors or blink stalkers. And btw forcing your opponent to go thors is part of your game plan, like i mentioned in the post, thors are weak against lings which is a part of the main force your zerg teammate is supposed to go. Same thing with Blink Stalkers. If they go rines then they just get destroyed by banes or even siege tanks, if your opponent starts to mass a lot of aa to fight the Protoss's phoenix, with air i've already written that you should switch to a ground force, if they have ground units that counter you, i said to tech to carriers. A lot of your complaints i've already written explanations to, but this build is still very susceptible to early agression.
I'll try to test this build out with good teammates in like a platinum + level game to see how it works, and post a replay as soon as possible.
No offense but if you are platinum.......eh nvm.
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Oh lol i'm not platinum, I'm in a master 3v3 team, but i wanna try it out in an easy division before doing it in masters.
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This could definitely work, but a coordinated rush would probably stomp that much teching. Depends on the map really.
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You'll die to literary any timing that hits before enough tanks/phoenix are out.
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Yeah, If you want to try out this build, use map preferences and try to do it on Green Acres or Arakan Citadel, those are the two maps I think it would work best on.
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Masters 3v3 & 4v4. I suppose I follow the 'idea' behind the strategy, although I think it's too vulnerable from a straight out attack. If you imagine for example, 2 zerg and 1 protoss as the enemy team, a mirror build with protoss going for normal 4 gate instead would beat your strategy (phoenix pretty much do nothing as you won't have enough when 4 gate is done). A similar thing can be said about having a terran going mech, just too vulnerable in early stages.
Since the intention is to gain air dominance with phoenix, it'll essentially feel like a 2 v 3 (assuming 2 zerg) for most the early game. Even with a large mass of phoenix, harassment is too easily negated with turrets/cannons/spore/queen, etc. Terran Mech would probably work better than protoss air, although the contrast in mobility between mech and ling/bling makes it difficult to co-ordinate attacks together simply because mech is slow. I'd prefer to go bio as terran.
Your strategy might work if there's enough pressure from zerg to keep the enemy at bay at the beginning, but I imagine things turning really difficult once you try to transition to carriers or move with the mech army. Team games often favor the team that can hit fast and hard.
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Yeah I was thinking if there was a timing push with roaches and 4gate/bioball from terran it would be bad for the team, so I'm trying to come up with an alternate opening, like perhaps a 2 or 3gate agressive with 2 rack pressure and lings from the PZT team, to try and cripple atleast one opponent in the begging, then the protoss transition into a phoenix chargelot and terran a somewhat bio+mech build but the zerg stay with ling bling
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On September 18 2011 13:57 LAN-f34r wrote:
Let me get this straight... if they manage to get air dominance via vikings, void rays, or corruptors... you go carriers?
Seems weak to any air play other than mutas. And since mutas and corruptors are the same tech...
Vikying, void rays are the COUNTER to carriers, and phoenix are the counter to them. Corruptors can be handled with support stalkers and void rays rather than carriers;;;
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On September 19 2011 01:05 Arkaridge wrote:
Masters 3v3 & 4v4. I suppose I follow the 'idea' behind the strategy, although I think it's too vulnerable from a straight out attack. If you imagine for example, 2 zerg and 1 protoss as the enemy team, a mirror build with protoss going for normal 4 gate instead would beat your strategy (phoenix pretty much do nothing as you won't have enough when 4 gate is done). A similar thing can be said about having a terran going mech, just too vulnerable in early stages.
Since the intention is to gain air dominance with phoenix, it'll essentially feel like a 2 v 3 (assuming 2 zerg) for most the early game. Even with a large mass of phoenix, harassment is too easily negated with turrets/cannons/spore/queen, etc. Terran Mech would probably work better than protoss air, although the contrast in mobility between mech and ling/bling makes it difficult to co-ordinate attacks together simply because mech is slow. I'd prefer to go bio as terran.
Your strategy might work if there's enough pressure from zerg to keep the enemy at bay at the beginning, but I imagine things turning really difficult once you try to transition to carriers or move with the mech army. Team games often favor the team that can hit fast and hard.
I do agree, but going air dominace with pheonix isn't all. You gain map control. phoenix can run around the map all the time, sometimes catching lone units and workers. Also, by going phoenix, you can neglect banshees, because phonix just melt banshees. by gaining map control, you can have an eco advantage because, once you spot an expansion, you can just ask the zerg to make something like 40 zerglings and it's gonna be down almost immediately, before enemy can send reinforcements. even in fortress maps, they cannot take more expansions than their natural. I usualy go pheonix, and its quite irritating for enemies to see phoenix running around and scouting your base when you dont have enough turrets up. Also, when you have 10+ phoenix, you can ignore a lone defense tower and just harass mineral line
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EPT
