EPTMacro is still the right way to play
I feel that macro is the best way to play if you want to improve at the game. I believe that there is no incorrect way to play.
[D] Learning through cheese - Page 6
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Raikia
Guernsey59 Posts
I feel that macro is the best way to play if you want to improve at the game. I believe that there is no incorrect way to play. | ||
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Crescend1
Poland108 Posts
And how can you advice practising cheese as much as regular game to players that forget they need to make units,or that have huge flaws in getting income/spending income+teching. They have so so much work to get into higher leagues, that wasting lets say 30-50 games for cheese, is just waste of their time. Learning to cheese, is good way at let's say grandmaster level, where you have basics of the gameplay solidified, and you have quite solid macro, then u might concentrate on getting easy wins. (cheese outside tournaments really has no sense outside training cheesing for tournaments, you might win game on ladder, but you won't get price or anything for it). Cheese is great when you have high skills in normal games, then somethimes you might go for easy win, or if you feel enemy is cutting corners you can risk 1 game in BO 3 to cheese him (if you are terran then your cheese will be devastating if hes cutting any corners). Advising low league players to learn cheese, is really without sense. Yeah, sure, they will learn to make 2 rax outside enemy natural, to make 3 raxes, make marines and get scv with attack, and other cool stuff. But if they want to learn micro, better go for micro trainers, you get more action in same time+real game scenarios. If you want to learn build orders strictly, you can learn macro builds as well(it's better, as player needs to learn tight timings in bo, to defend possible cheeses). Cheesing in lower leagues, is just like stopping at first class in your first school. After 3 years in it you will be smartest guy in this class. But everyone in your age are already attending university;) And I myself cheese with terran in customs quite alot, and it never taught me anything, outside getting easy wins. For reference im quite high master league player. Cheers | ||
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KaidaN
Australia54 Posts
and I feel if you get your macro down pat at the low levels, you can hold off any low level cheese anyway. (let me know if im completely wrong tl) by giving this advice 'only cheese until your micro is excellent an your build orders' I feel low level players seeking advice will take this in and turn out like CombatEX, obviously he cheeses, hes damn good at it, also he can play a solid macro game but if you really put him up against even half decent he gets totally crushed. You know why? he learnt to cheese before he could play a proper macro game. | ||
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Gigaschatten
Germany79 Posts
But honestly: Game is about competing, finding a weakness in oponents build and then simply to WIN! If I scout early enough and see a spanishwa opening, well, go 4 rax reaper, go 2-3 rax all-in, execute a nice DT rush, or whatever. And if I see a Terran bunkering but with almost no units (possibly teching to Banshees with cloack) then heck, i can go baneling bust him or pull of a 4 gate. Thats all part of the game. Better player will defend in 90% of cases. In the end its simply your own fault (you didnt scout enough or didnt read the oponent well). Simple as that. Nothing to be angry about your oponent. Just blame yourself and do it better next time! | ||
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Trealador
United States207 Posts
First you need to identify what cheese is. Cheese is blindly all inning off of 1 strat such as 6 pool, cannon rush, or proxy raxx. All inning or cannon rushing after scouting is used to take advantage of greedy play with smart techniques to get ahead of your opponent. If you want to climb ladder from 1 brain dead cheese strat that's fine but you will literally learn nothing from it. Every single pro will have a wide range of strats to adapt to each situation as it comes. You will literally never ever see a strat being executed with literally no scouting. If a zerg fast expands without an overlord near the base a protoss will cannon rush as a reaction to what the zerg is doing. Using this knowledge we can simply ignore someone who blindly counters our strat because it wasn't the fact that as a player you need to work on scouting better, denying scouting better, react better, or really change anything. If they blindly roach rush without scouting and you happen to be doing a build that is countered by an extremely early roach timing there is literally nothing to be done except maybe reading the unpredictable. These kind of strats are those that people will lose to once and then kick themselves over it after watching the replay. If you want to gamble every game with the same all in, you will win a certain number of games and maybe advance to a decent league, but the moment he stops your blind attack you will have no idea what to do. Early aggression is designed to either punish greed or apply pressure to allow your next step to put you ahead of your opponent in some way. Post is completely misleading and OP seems like an idiot. I wouldn't mention LagTV in any real discussion about the game. | ||
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KaidaN
Australia54 Posts
On August 24 2011 21:30 Gigaschatten wrote: I must disagree with most posters in this thread. Cheese, all-ins, what so ever, are integral part of the game and must be learned. Best way to defend cheese is to execute it first, win a lot and then hit a level where oponents easily defend it. By watching the replays you see how they defend the cheese and also learn from it. Once you realize that you can not win anymore with cheese (cause oponents are very good at defending) you will automatically switch into a macro mode again. Did he read what he posted? he said 'LOW LEVEL PLAYERS' do nothing but cheese, and then go into macro. I hate to tell all of you defending the OP's pov, but macro is the BASIS for this game, economy management is what it was ment to be, if it was anything else it like micro or etc it may as well be a remake of warcraft 3 or similar. What you are saying 'only do cheese' is like saying to someone with no soccer skill AT ALL, learn how to master free kicks like david beckham. However as you get better, we will put the worlds best goal keeper in. What is this 'soccer player' going to do when he finds out he cant win off free kicks anymore, learn how to dribble and pass? Basically learn how to do SIMPLE things that you are suppose to learn first. Macro will always prevail over cheese, you even said it yourself that you will hit a wall, why not learn the easiest but the most effective things first and master them. Eventually when your good enough to beat most players with just straight up macro, learn cheese for tourny preparation and best of 3,5 whatever. (Meaning, why the hell do you need cheese to win games on ladder? ) EDIT: Just for clarification, im a high master zerg, switched to terran at the start of season 3 and now rank 1 diamond beating almost every master i vs in the last week or so and ive maybe cheesed 5-10 games in my ~2000 1v1 game career. also I worked all the way up from bronze (wasnt some bw gosu unfortunately) with no cheese what so ever. | ||
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DuncanIdaho
United States465 Posts
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
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mage36
415 Posts
yes, you get to practice micros and tight builds, but you also get to do that with early engagements. You'll gain more with microing units while keeping up other things like warping in units for toss or inject larvae for zerg. those are some things you don't get when you cheese with like a 6 pool and have no plans to macro. As a toss player and the most common cheese is a cannon rush, you don't get to know much timings and you certainly don't gain much micro except the probe you're using to build cannons. But really, if you have to micro your probe that much, then your cannons have been scouted already which may constitute a failed cheese. | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
Which Zerg builds can I do to reach a certain timing window where I can 'all-in' my opponents and use intense micro to make the best out of my units? Thanks | ||
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eourcs
United States459 Posts
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Guilloteen
United States128 Posts
On August 24 2011 05:48 tuestresfat wrote: Macro is still the right way to play. I don't understand why people have this mentality. There is no "right way to play," and heavy-macro-oriented play is just as valid a strategy as a cheese strategy. People need to get out of this mentality. This mentality is the reason why Koreans will always win against foreigners, because Koreans understand what we call cheese as simply "a strong strategy that needs to be scouted." I should know, I'm Korean, and I play with Koreans all the time. Foreigners, on the other hand, get cheesed and say "fuck that's bullshit. fucking gay ass cheeser, fuck you." And they attribute the loss to not their bad playing, as they should, but the "gay cheese" itself. Fix your mentality, and cheese will be no more than a strong strategy that can be shut down easily if you scout correctly. | ||
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quillian
United States318 Posts
Thanks for contributing to a healthy debate! | ||
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quillian
United States318 Posts
On August 24 2011 23:12 KaidaN wrote: Did he read what he posted? he said 'LOW LEVEL PLAYERS' do nothing but cheese, and then go into macro. I hate to tell all of you defending the OP's pov, but macro is the BASIS for this game, economy management is what it was ment to be, if it was anything else it like micro or etc it may as well be a remake of warcraft 3 or similar. What you are saying 'only do cheese' is like saying to someone with no soccer skill AT ALL, learn how to master free kicks like david beckham. However as you get better, we will put the worlds best goal keeper in. What is this 'soccer player' going to do when he finds out he cant win off free kicks anymore, learn how to dribble and pass? Basically learn how to do SIMPLE things that you are suppose to learn first. Macro will always prevail over cheese, you even said it yourself that you will hit a wall, why not learn the easiest but the most effective things first and master them. Eventually when your good enough to beat most players with just straight up macro, learn cheese for tourny preparation and best of 3,5 whatever. (Meaning, why the hell do you need cheese to win games on ladder? ) EDIT: Just for clarification, im a high master zerg, switched to terran at the start of season 3 and now rank 1 diamond beating almost every master i vs in the last week or so and ive maybe cheesed 5-10 games in my ~2000 1v1 game career. also I worked all the way up from bronze (wasnt some bw gosu unfortunately) with no cheese what so ever. Sure, but just to continue your metaphor, telling someone to just macro and 1-A to improve is like putting a would be player on a soccer field and just having them run endurance exercises all day without letting him touch the ball. Great, he'll be able to keep up, and maybe he can pick up some inklings of how the game works by watching the people around him, but the second you want him to dribble and shoot, he'll fall on his ass. Gold-Plat needs to learn micro just as much as macro, they go hand in hand. | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
On August 25 2011 00:16 quillian wrote: I posted some responses in the OP to the major objections I've seen here so far. If you have legitimate complaints you think I don't adress, feel free to continue the discussion. Thanks for contributing to a healthy debate! In response to your 1st comment in the EDIT section of the OP, what you're failing to understand is that the most important part of practicing to macro is to make sure you're not looking at your base... Your terran buddy lost because his macro wasn't good enough. If he was busy staring at his base while tank lines are out in the open--then his problem was not that he was "too busy" macroing but simply that he was "too crappy" at macroing. It's actually *more* important for him to play macro games more and not waste time not practicing macro games. The Chess analogy (grandmaster wise, not game wise) was made earlier in the thread and I would also like to bring this important point into consideration. Unlike Chess, execution in Starcraft is AS IMPORTANT as the strategy is. The biggest difference between the top players and the lower ranking players (myself included) is not that they "don't know what to do" or are "retarded stupid." The problem is their execution. They know that they should build workers nonstop--but they don't. They know that they should get turrets up before mutas/banshees get to their base--but they don't. They know not to overstim--but they do. They even know that they should be using hotkeys to make units and that building supply should take 1-2 seconds at the most to do--but they fail at this as well. You see, the problem is that unlike chess, simply *knowing* what to do does not make you a good player. You need to be able to execute it properly. In Chess, practicing harder does not mean your pawns move more efficiently. Chess requires zero multitasking and requires zero mechanics outside of lifting chess pieces and putting them back down. Great chess players can happen by simply being smart enough. Even you can play like a grandmaster if you were having a good day that day. Starcraft on the other hand, requires execution to be good. It requires mechanics to be good. The best way to learn to beat cheese is not to cheese but to simply try harder next time. Pull more workers, pull less workers, scout sooner, scout better, scout later, etc... Macro harder in essence. | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
On August 25 2011 00:37 quillian wrote: Sure, but just to continue your metaphor, telling someone to just macro and 1-A to improve is like putting a would be player on a soccer field and just having them run endurance exercises all day without letting him touch the ball. Great, he'll be able to keep up, and maybe he can pick up some inklings of how the game works by watching the people around him, but the second you want him to dribble and shoot, he'll fall on his ass. Gold-Plat needs to learn micro just as much as macro, they go hand in hand. Actually, they don't let the players really touch the ball until they are good enough to not get winded from running.... You don't actually want them playing with the ball until their bodies are physically able to otherwise they might develop bad habits, bad rhythms, etc... | ||
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ReturnStroke
United States801 Posts
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quillian
United States318 Posts
On August 25 2011 00:44 lorkac wrote: In response to your 1st comment in the EDIT section of the OP, what you're failing to understand is that the most important part of practicing to macro is to make sure you're not looking at your base... Your terran buddy lost because his macro wasn't good enough. If he was busy staring at his base while tank lines are out in the open--then his problem was not that he was "too busy" macroing but simply that he was "too crappy" at macroing. It's actually *more* important for him to play macro games more and not waste time not practicing macro games. The Chess analogy (grandmaster wise, not game wise) was made earlier in the thread and I would also like to bring this important point into consideration. Unlike Chess, execution in Starcraft is AS IMPORTANT as the strategy is. The biggest difference between the top players and the lower ranking players (myself included) is not that they "don't know what to do" or are "retarded stupid." The problem is their execution. They know that they should build workers nonstop--but they don't. They know that they should get turrets up before mutas/banshees get to their base--but they don't. They know not to overstim--but they do. They even know that they should be using hotkeys to make units and that building supply should take 1-2 seconds at the most to do--but they fail at this as well. You see, the problem is that unlike chess, simply *knowing* what to do does not make you a good player. You need to be able to execute it properly. In Chess, practicing harder does not mean your pawns move more efficiently. Chess requires zero multitasking and requires zero mechanics outside of lifting chess pieces and putting them back down. Great chess players can happen by simply being smart enough. Even you can play like a grandmaster if you were having a good day that day. Starcraft on the other hand, requires execution to be good. It requires mechanics to be good. The best way to learn to beat cheese is not to cheese but to simply try harder next time. Pull more workers, pull less workers, scout sooner, scout better, scout later, etc... Macro harder in essence. It sounds to me like you are just lumping micro in with macro. When you say macro better, you don't just mean "build more units, scvs, etc" you mean play a better macro GAME, have map awareness, scout effectively, respond to what you see, micro your units correctly when necessary. None of these things are talked about when people tell lower league players to "macro better." They are just assumed, and left to them to figure out. This is really misleading, and makes progressing past a certain point really hard for people who don't have a natural sense for unit positioning and micro. I understand your point, that if he was better at macro he'd have more attention and APM for the fights. However, how do you suggest someone actually go about learning HOW to micro a fight in the first place? It seems like isolating the two skills and practicing them in a focused manner will lead to faster improvement than fumbling through each game trying to figure out how you should have micro'd for a specific situation. | ||
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ImmortalWill
United States2 Posts
They tell you to train your macro because once you get past those cheese, the only obstacle left for you on the way to diamond is to keep on producing worker. I think Gosu when asked how to deal with cheese, they only mention scouting slightly about sending out 1 worker at 9 or 13, what to look for and being actively scouting through out the match. They proceed to help you with other part of your game and this is when a lot of their argument and advice come in. This is why I think you are confused that the advice for defending against cheese is to macro. It's not. Keeping up your macro without responding to your opponent can lead you to certain-lose situations. And yeah, I think the title is a little bit too sensational. | ||
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