• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 02:53
CEST 08:53
KST 15:53
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202514Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20259Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder2EWC 2025 - Replay Pack2Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced27BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0
StarCraft 2
General
Serral wins EWC 2025 #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Greatest Players of All Time: 2025 Update Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 EWC 2025 - Replay Pack
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event TaeJa vs Creator Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced Shield Battery Server New Patch BW General Discussion [BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
UK Politics Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 707 users

[G] aXa's ZvZ, Ladder Season 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Normal
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-06 15:47:20
August 14 2011 02:12 GMT
#1
Introduction

Hey guy's, it's me again. Maybe you'll remember the beloved 9 pool ZvZ build, or even the really avant-gardist Ling/bling/infestor ZvP style i wrote down 5 month ago.
Season 3 is up for several weeks now, and my 9 pool build is no longer that effective because of the new map pool. It forced me to use a more conventional style on large map. Anyway, don't expect to find in this thread an innovative build like i used to do, but a more refined 9 pool build and guide, as well as a revisited hatch first style, with an emphasize on the map and unit usage. Nothing crazy, but going in depth over some stuff could certainly improve your ZvZ, which is all about capitalizing on little edge to create an huge one.
I'm still doing quite good in ZvZ, fairly even in ZvT, and awfully bad in ZvP. It caused me a lot of frustration and i'm actually angry at the simple idea of laddering. This mindset is a motivation writing this guide to me, because i will focus on the game i like: Tight build, sharp timing, and macro-oriented game-play. Of course ZvZ does not uprise balance issues so we can certainly focus on the "Playing better than my opponent" than simply "Trying to survive the imba-cheese/turtling my opponent throwing at me every f**** game by being utterly gimmicky" This to be said, let's begin by taking a look at the map pool.


Map pool

My veto:

+ Show Spoiler +
Searing Crater: This map sucks so hard in ZvP and ZvT
Abyssal Cavern: This map sucks so hard in ZvP and ZvT
Backwater Gulch: Lol.

9 pool:

+ Show Spoiler +
Shakuras Plateau
Shattered Temple
Xel naga Cavern

Hatch first:

+ Show Spoiler +
Tal'Darim Altar
Antiga Shipyard
Nezarim Crypt
Typhoon Peaks


I think it's pretty clear why each map goes to each strategy, but i will clarify anyway: You can't expect to do damage or to scout in time on some large map, and there is a lot of large map this season.
Let's begin with the bread and butter 9 pool build

9 pool my love


The build

+ Show Spoiler +
9/10: Pool
10/10: 1st Overlord
10/18: 3 Sets of zergling
13/18: 1st Queen
15/18: 2 Drones
17/18: 2nd Overlord
19/18: 2nd Queen with extractor trick
1st larvae inject

First set of thoughts:
At exactly 3:23 in game time, is the time where you have to do 4 things simultaneously, within 4 in game sec:
-Produce another queen asap with the tight 150 mineral
-Produce an extractor, don't cancel it
-Inject asap as your first queen pop out
-Control your 6 ling and kill as much stuff as possible
In my previous thread, we had a controversy about 11/10 drone extractor trick. You can in fact squeeze another drone, but it will delay your 3rd zergling by a bit and quite mess out the timing. I tried the 11/10 trick for 2 weeks and i dropped 10% of my winrate or so, so i don't recommend it.


16/26: 6 Drones 2nd larvae inject
22/26: 3rd Queen

Second set of thoughts:
With your second queen, immediately plant a creep tumor to creep unto your ramp. Don't go asap with your 2 queens to wall off your ramp. Depending on the map and how your opponent managed your 6 initial zergling, you'll not be there in time and you can die to a large zergling counter. The safe way is to sit back in your base and defend in your mineral line until you get a third queen and creep coverage.

24/26: 1 Roach warren. Put 3 drone in gas 3rd larvae inject
23/26: 3 Drones
26/26: 3rd and 4th Overlord


Third set of thoughts:
When the 3rd larvae inject is done, you can finally go wall up your ramp. Be sure to put 3 drones in gas before making the roach warren, you'll see you can't do both simultaneously because after building your third queen, you won't have enough minerals left to do it for something like 5 more sec.

26/42: 4 to 7 roaches
36/42: 1 Expand
35/42: Lair
35/42: 2nd Extractor
34/42: Evolution chamber
33/42: 7 Drones
40/42: 5th Overlord


Fourth set of thoughts:
The amount of roach you'll have to do depends heavily on what your opponent is doing. I will talk later about scouting with overlord, but be sure to always follow this rule: If you don't see an expansion before yours, delay your Lair and your evolution chamber and make extra roaches, up to 7. The longer you don't see an expand, the more roach you'll have to make. Don't forget that queen tranfuse is the key to any all in. Let your roaches down the ramp in order to protect your currently building natural, but don't go too far and let your queen block the ramp until it's done.

42/42: +1 range attack upgrade
46/52: Roach speed and 6th overlord
52/52: Stop drone production, start Roach production with overlord.
84/84: +2 range attack upgrade


Final set of thoughts:
-Your expand should start at 6:10 and finish at 7:50 inject immediately and drone transfer
-Your lair start at 6:50
-Your +1 range attack at 7:40
-Your roach speed start at 8:15
-Your roach production start at 8:55
-Your roach timing move out around 10:20, as well as +2 range
You need exactly 32 drones in order to perform this timing well. It means 26 drones at mineral duty, 6 at gas. be sure to have no more than 16 drone at your main and around 10 at your expand to saturate them correctly.


General goals and thoughts

I'm fond of words, even in english, hence this part will describe the build in a broad fashion.
First i'd like to say that 9 pool is not a cheesy build by any mean. You have a clear follow up, and the early pool is here to apply pressure.
The initial pressure will give you a lead, a lead you will secure by playing extremely defensive thereafter.
After a short amount of dronage, you'll have the economy to get aggressive by pulling out a nice timing, using roach speed and +1 missile upgrade. This timing is extremely deadly but is not an all-in either: You'll have an upgrade lead (+2 on the way when your hits your opponent's base) and a solid drone count.
Now, why it is so effective? Certainly not because of the clear superiority of the build. First, you have a clear plan, you know exactly what to produce and when to produce it. Second, you are the pace-maker of the game: You dictate what your opponent has to do, because of the 6 initial ling AND the roach timing, which lead us to the third point:
Third, your opponent has to make no mistakes, just in order to survive. He let you kill too many drones? Game over. He overreacted and produced too many ling instead of drone? Game over. He tried a silly all-in because he felt he was behind? Poor guy, get some confidence, and some pride too. He overdroned and has no army when your fierce roach army knock to his door? Don't even GG.
Of course, the higher your league is, lower are the chance that he will screw up. In master league, you can expect 80 to 90% win rate on the 9 pool map.

Scouting: Knowledge is power

Besides, having a nice overlord spread makes you look like a boss

Of course this part will only concern the 3 9 pool maps i mentioned before.

Xel naga:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Overlord 1 will allow you to scout if any 9 pool is coming (Right when he passes near the west watch tower) He will not arrive into your opponents natural before the 6 lings, so be sure to quickly check if there is any hatch first with them. Right when he plants his expand down, move your 1st overlord to his third. You don't want to lose any overlord in a tight build like this.
Overlord 2 and 3 will help you to spot any kind of army movement all game long, And will help you to react accordingly when it comes to larvae management: (To drone or not to drone, that is the question.)
Overlord 4 is quite important: He will pop right around the time you'll go down your ramp with roaches and expand. The first spot will allow you to see any zergling going around and deal with them in an easier way. When your creep cover this area, send him over the brushes to spot any baneling-zergling shenanigans.
Overlord 5 will help you to spot any sneaky expand in this area, or muta if it comes to this.
I could go on with the next overlords, but they are not as critical as the 5 firsts. Spread them over each base and along the attack paths and you'll be fine.


Shakuras Plateau:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Assuming you are spawning in the bottom left and your opponent in the top right position. Just transpose the whole thing if the spawning are different.
Overlord 1 will tell you in time where your opponent is, and thus you'll be able to go straight with your ling to his base. You'll have a quick look at his build too. Can't hurt!
Redirect him to the natural, then at his third when it goes down.
Overlord 2 3 4 5 will give you a whole sight of the only attack path of the map.


Shattered Temple:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Assuming you spawn at bottom left and your opponent at top right, which is as bad as you can get.
Overlord 1 will quickly spot if your opponent is in close air position, then redirect him to the top natural. Again, when it goes down, send him to the third.
Right after building Overlord 2, send a drone (at 10 supply) to the close ground position to see if your opponent is there or not. If he is not (like in the drawing) then redirect your Overlord 2 accordingly. If he is, redirect your overlord 1. Sounds tricky but it's quite logical in the end.


Responding to your opponent build

Early game

-Your opponent will likely go 80% of the time to a standard speedling first build. In this case, target the drone and kill a maximal amount of them before the first sets of ling pops.
-If your opponent goes for hatch first, target the hatch until he cancels it, then go kill some drone, or zergling if they are already out.
-If your opponent goes for a 9 pool or an earlier one, he will likely go for an all in. You'll have the edge: You have a queen to defend yourself, just make sure to build extra ling in base and cancel his spinecrawler.
-If your opponent goes for a 11 pool or so, kill as much ling as you can. Don't send your queen too soon at your ramp, wait for the roaches.

Mid game

There are different types of reaction that your opponent will do, only one is correct and will lead both of you to late game, the others will give you an auto-win if you read it correctly.

1: Your opponent is massing zergling on 1 or 2 base and will try to counter attack you. Make sure to build extra roaches before lair and you'll be fine. Some dudes will try to baneling bust you. Laugh hard at them !

2: Your opponent is going a middle-ish way of unit, dronage and expansion. This is the type of reaction you have to expect the most. And the easier to win. When your timing has arrived, you will out number him in roach count, while he will have 5 extra drone compared to you. Insta win.

3: Your opponent handle your 9 pool well and is totally fine expanding and droning like a mad men, because he knows you won't attack him before 10 min mark. AND he is not overdroning and keep up with your roach count. When you see a roach count that you can't beat (don't forget to check upgrades, +1 is magic back up and produce 14 extra drones, in order to saturate your natural and take the 2 extra gas. You are now in the late stage of the game, do whatever you're used to in order to win that part

Unit control

6 zergling

A good player will try to surround your ling with drone using the mineral trick. Don't let your zerglings unmicroed and die stupidly.
When the drone mineral trick is done, right click away from the drone
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Then A click on the ground
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

And get the job done.
When you have 1 or 2 zergling left, target very badly injured drone to get extra kills. It goes really fast so act like a badass zerg !

Roaches

Your initial roaches need to stay down your ramp close to your natural in order to defend any kind of attempt to cancel your expand.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

But don't go too far from your queens or you'll die. Without transfuses, this battle is over:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Don't forget to get a good concave against your opponent roach army as well.The trick i use the most is to form a straight line while marching through the map, then right click beneath the opponent roach army to get a good positioning for the battle.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Replays

Some fresh replays available. On my old thread, you can find a bunch more of them.
[url blocked]

[url blocked]



Hatch first

General thoughts

Hatch first is by far the best build on large map. They are safe enough to survive any 1 base play as long as you know what you are doing. There is no unique build following the hatch first, but different types of reaction who will allow you to survive through early and mid game. Thus i will not describe the build like i did for the 9 pool, but rather speak in a broad way about what to do. I'm a macro guy, hence my hatch first style is a reactive style. Some guy's will do a zergling all-in after an hatch first, others will go right into roaches. My way of dealing with it is to scout a lot, figure out what my opponent is doing, and reacting to it. The really interesting part of this hatch first guide will be my tactical use of units.

Spawning position

Quick summary about scouting: Send a drone at 13 food, use your first overlord to scout a main, send your drone to another one until you found him.
-If you do scout a one base play: Plant your pool and your extractor at 14 food right away.
-If your opponent is going hatch first in "close" position: at 15.
-If your opponent is going hatch first in cross position: Plant extractor and pool at 16 food.
(Get speed asap)
Then, produce 6 ling, use 2 to scout his base and 4 to defend yours

Reacting in early game

The 2 initial scouting ling will give you enough intel to make a first choice.
-If you see no drone at his natural, speed on the way, no gas mining, then he is certainly going for a speedling all in. Come back to your base, plant a baneling nest, a spinecrawler at his expand and start zergling production. When you have some baneling, consider starting a roach warren.
-if you see a roach warren, plant your roach warren and adopt a passive attitude (some roach, lot of drone)
-if you see a spinecrawler: Time to drone man, this guy is not attacking you any time soon.
Assure yourself that he is in fact going for what you thought he was in the first place. Start sending a zergling every 30 in game seconds at his base. It will give you a clear indication when to drone and when to make unit. If you survived the 10 min mark, then it is time to shine in the mid game.

Mid game plan

In the mid game, i use simple rules. Together, they shape my mid game plan. On one gas, i get speedling then +1 range, then my Lair. No need to know any kind of food number, your gas income is your time marker.
When your Lair is started, take all your gas. The aim is to saturate each base with 22 drone (16 at minerals, 6 in gas)
Start your third when Lair is halfway done.
Begin your infestation pit as your Lair is done. Start pumping roach until your third is done.
When your third is done, produce 22 more drone, saturate it (take the 2 extra gases asap). Make a macro hatch. This round of drone and the extra hatchery will allow you to produce 5ish infestors while keeping your money low.
Make a second evolution chamber, you should be upgrading +2 range and +1 armor right now.
When infestors are done, it's time to attack !

Being a true zerg

Being a true zerg implies to be a a vicious guy who knows what unit to do and how to use them.

Using Roaches
+ Show Spoiler +
Ah ah i love useless pics[image loading]

Backbone if your army, they are here to take hits while other units make the difference.
Every zerg unit have a sneaky mode. As the game goes on, i suggest you to research burrow and burrow movement. Take several squad of 4 roaches each, go sneak behind mineral lines and watch your opponent cries. Nothing much more to say about them.

Using Infestors
+ Show Spoiler +
Damn, they won't allow me more than 25 upload a day

Surprisingly, a lot of player don't really know how to use them, including me few weeks ago. Are you one of those who fungal randomly pack of roaches? Don't lie to me, i know you do. Roach die in 3 fungal (or close to). Fungaling the whole army one time has no point at all. The key is to fungal a pack of roaches 3 times in a row. If you have 6 fungals available, you can fungal 2 packs at a time, etc. Sometimes, the positioning will allow you to fungal a pack of roaches that will prevent this roaches (or the other behind it) to reach your army. It's called Fungal Field, thank you Destiny, you sick nerd infestor user !
The sneaky mode of the infestor is cool as well: Burrow and sneak into an expand. Some guy's will fungal the drone, i'd rather spawn infested terran to kill the expand as well.

Using Hydralisks

In a late game scenario, usually before getting greater spire, you want to add some of those guy to your roach army. Some hydralisks behind your roaches will do tremendous damage. Nothing new here, beside the timing of the hydra den. Don't consider going for them before having 6 extractors running. Otherwise, Hydra are bad, they don't even have a sneaky mode.

Using Zergling

Zergling. Zergling zergling zergling. Didn't you guys know? This guys are so much underused. Sometimes, a good draw worth ten times a long speech !
+ Show Spoiler +
God i love page ![image loading]

You are the blue guy, your opponent is yellow. (If he is really Yellow, just ragequit)
This situation represent a ZvZ around the time where you have 3 bases each, and when your infestors pop out.(Remember when i said "Time to attack!" ?)

The blue and and yellow rectangles represent your roach infestor army clashing with his roach infestor army. Meanwhile, your zergling squad (around 30) represented by a triangle, is used to deny the third. As you can see, your opponent can't defend it because he is engaged with your roach army. Zergling are like cavalery: Their high mobility should be used 1: As flank 2: Even better, at harassing were your opponent is not. Won me countless of ZvZ.

Another example on Antiga Shipyard
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Zerglings are sneaky. So sneaky.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Replays

[url blocked]

VOD
TheDeconstructionist [ 0 posts | Profile | Buddy | Report ]
Subject: A VOD of your 9pool build (badly executed, though)
Date: 8/17/11 17:53

Just in case you're interested, Day9 casted a VOD where I did your build: http://blip.tv/day9tv/ahgl-google-vs-amazon-game-2-week-7-starcraft-2-5471568

It ended up as a strange game since I didn't expect an early pool from the opponent, and I was a little paranoid and waited too long with the expansion (and got an unnecessary spine crawler after scouting no expo from the other Zerg) but the idea was there, and it worked ;-)

(Also I didn't get much sleep, since I'm playing from EU in US night hours, which generally doesn't help)

Cheers on developing such an unorthodox and refined build,
-- Decon


Definitely check http://blip.tv/day9tv/ahgl-google-vs-amazon-game-2-week-7-starcraft-2-5471568 ! Thx to Decon
It gave me the idea of making a VOD-guide of the build myself, but i have no idea how to make such a thing. Would someone with the required skill help me out?

Damn, i forgot the [G] ! Can i correct that?

Blog

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=283121
Slumph
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom52 Posts
August 14 2011 02:25 GMT
#2
Great write up, surprised there's no comments yet. Didn't read every bit but skim read, however got a pretty good overview and I'm gunna bookmark this and probably read it at a more sensible time.

Keep fighting the good fight for E-Sports <3 also do you mind linking your bnet profile?
We spend our lives not taking chances so that we can make it safely to death.
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
August 14 2011 02:26 GMT
#3
Hey, i just posted that (and still editing it) so no surprise about the lack of comments ^^ Stupid question, but how do you link your bnet profile?
J_D
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States102 Posts
August 14 2011 02:44 GMT
#4
Excellent guide! I really like the clear plan to go into the mid game and the overlord scouting diagrams. The first 9-pool guide that you made several months ago seems to work great for me in ZvP, being anywhere from a build order win if they do a greedy FFE to being basically even. However, in ZvZ i just can't seem to do enough damage with the first 6 zerglings, and then my opponent gets zergling speed so much earlier than me, which I have a hard time dealing with.

Obviously some sort of 9pool business would completely fail vs terran, but I wonder if there are any similar early pressure strats that would actually work vs terran in the first 5mins (that aren't allin).
Soluhwin
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1287 Posts
August 14 2011 02:47 GMT
#5
On August 14 2011 11:44 J_D wrote:
Excellent guide! I really like the clear plan to go into the mid game and the overlord scouting diagrams. The first 9-pool guide that you made several months ago seems to work great for me in ZvP, being anywhere from a build order win if they do a greedy FFE to being basically even. However, in ZvZ i just can't seem to do enough damage with the first 6 zerglings, and then my opponent gets zergling speed so much earlier than me, which I have a hard time dealing with.

Obviously some sort of 9pool business would completely fail vs terran, but I wonder if there are any similar early pressure strats that would actually work vs terran in the first 5mins (that aren't allin).

Umm... the 7RR is still alive and kicking. Other than that I'm not sure if there is.
happy birthday, by the way.
I put the sexy in dyslexia.
J_D
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States102 Posts
August 14 2011 02:50 GMT
#6
On August 14 2011 11:47 Soluhwin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2011 11:44 J_D wrote:
Excellent guide! I really like the clear plan to go into the mid game and the overlord scouting diagrams. The first 9-pool guide that you made several months ago seems to work great for me in ZvP, being anywhere from a build order win if they do a greedy FFE to being basically even. However, in ZvZ i just can't seem to do enough damage with the first 6 zerglings, and then my opponent gets zergling speed so much earlier than me, which I have a hard time dealing with.

Obviously some sort of 9pool business would completely fail vs terran, but I wonder if there are any similar early pressure strats that would actually work vs terran in the first 5mins (that aren't allin).

Umm... the 7RR is still alive and kicking. Other than that I'm not sure if there is.
happy birthday, by the way.



I know the 7RR, along with some variants of it has the potential to do some damage vs terran, but I feel that vs someone very good (high masters - grandmaster) it just wouldn't do enough damage to not fall behind (especially if the terran scouted anything unusual, like no 15 hatch or zergling speed research).
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
August 14 2011 02:54 GMT
#7
Hey J_D, try to stricly follow the 9 pool build, and you'll see it is great in ZvZ
Xanbatou
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States805 Posts
August 14 2011 03:04 GMT
#8
AxA, I always love your posts .

Anyways, I still use your 9pool build in both ZvP and ZvZ. I still seem to think it's effective on the new maps o.O. You can often scout your opponent in time to direct your zerglings. The only map that it's not good on is taldarim, because it is so big. On taldarim, I use a special all-in revolving around baneling speed if I see a FE.
mumpfel
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany52 Posts
August 14 2011 11:25 GMT
#9
thx for the guide, it is amazing and should get more attention!

few questions considering your 9pool:

1.) You said several times in your guide, that you do not have to wall-off with your 2 queens immediately. But if u see that the lings of your opponent will not make it in time you do make your walloff before they arrive, right?

2.) IF I(have to) let a few lings into my main, I always fear that he will attack my blocking queens from both sides and that i will not be able to hold. If the mainbase-area (?) is big enough like on shattered temple, they can easily run their lings aroung offcreep, so that your queens will not catch them. Did you experience that scenario? Is it possible to hold if the queens gets attacked from both sides? I always feel that sometimes it is even close if lings are attacking at your front only, so my queens would simply die if my scenario happens.

3) Isnt it more efficient, if you cancel your first extractor after you build your queen? I checked one of your Xelnaga replays and i think it would definitely be better, to cancel to extractor and then build it so that it is ready when you just want to put your drones into it. In the replay i watched, you did put down your extractor at 3:19 ingame time, but your drones started mining at 4:23. That means, you could build your extractor at 3:53 (extractor builds 30 ingame seconds long) and your gas mining would not be delayed. That again means, that you could have 1 drone mining longer for about 30 seconds - for the cost for one cancelled extractor, which is nearly nothing. What do you think about it?
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-14 14:48:14
August 14 2011 14:45 GMT
#10
About the wall off, the main issue is that you'll need a second inject with one of your 2 initial queen, because your third is not out yet. It's dangerous to separate your queen (Like 1 at the wall, the other have to came back for injects) So its simply easier and safer to keep them both at your main until the inject is done.

Usually, zergling never really wandering in my main. They see the 2 queens and go back outside. If they stay in the main, don't wall off until your roach come out.

About the extractor, it is, but i'm used to this timing and i know if i cancel it i will forget to rebuild it in time, because you are quite busy after that. But feel free to find the right timing !


Can anyone help me about the [G] ? How i am supposed to edit it ?
zylog
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada943 Posts
August 14 2011 19:00 GMT
#11
Wow, this is a really nicely made guide. I really like the overlord path charts and the detailed instructions on how to micro and position the units.

This will be good for me as I'm struggling the most in my ZvZs, mostly due to not having a clear plan on how I want to play it. Thanks a lot for your work!
warblob004
Profile Joined January 2011
United States198 Posts
August 14 2011 19:06 GMT
#12
aXa you make laddering fucking awesome
"I have not failed; I've simply found 10,000 ways it won't work." ~Thomas Edison
mumpfel
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany52 Posts
August 14 2011 19:58 GMT
#13
I do not think you can add the [G] yourself, an admin has to do it.

Today i played some games with your 9pool and one time my opponent played the 11pool18hatch build, which is getting more popular (hi@destiny). Even though I do not think that it is a good build in zvz in general, i had the feeling that it is pretty much the counter to your 9pool strategy. Unfortunately i disconnected after the early game, but i felt i was really far behind. I was not able to do any economic damage and he was able to put down his expansion immediately after my lings were gone.

I have no idea how your push at the 10 minute mark will do anything if your opponent does not take a fast third and overdrones hardcore. He is expanding at 18 and you at 36 supply...

Any opinions?
levikus
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany19 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-14 20:32:10
August 14 2011 20:07 GMT
#14
aXa your ZvZ 9pool is plain awesome.
I do exact as you say and win a lot of games! But i have a suggestion: Hurry with the creepspread to your natural and put the evochamber at the bottom. Mass ling runbys are much easier to hold!
BlueLagoon
Profile Joined February 2011
France28 Posts
August 14 2011 20:55 GMT
#15
This guide is far better than the previous one. I'm glad to see some new explanations and all timing are quite perfect. This is not an easy build to do because of the 6 lings attack lead you to a defensive play with roaches and queens.

Well... I need to work on it, I like the way of thinking of this build.

Thx aXa, good write as usual! I'm back with some feedback asap.
tahiti
DrStoopid
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden45 Posts
August 14 2011 20:57 GMT
#16
I loved your last ZvZ guide, and this is even better. Great read!
Kirschke
Profile Joined December 2010
United States19 Posts
August 14 2011 21:12 GMT
#17
A great guide and is greatly appreciated thanks!
Kornholi0
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada634 Posts
August 14 2011 21:28 GMT
#18
I really like using infestors as my backbone of my army, which is why I like this write up, because you can save that 15 food worth of lings and make up for it with better fungals and deny/kill a 3rd. I do this plenty if I feel oddly aggressive in ZvZ, if not I just turtle up with a bunch of spines which allows me to defend the lings with roaches and kill his attack with infestors.
Team Channel: VTeX Team Co-leader: AGGhost 223 Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/agghost
Joey Wheeler
Profile Joined July 2011
Korea (North)276 Posts
August 14 2011 23:40 GMT
#19
I tried doing this for a while, but it simply gets hard countered by speedling expand builds. The earlier hatch and the fact you're only expanding after you get roaches means you're both safe and economically ahead.
Ingenol
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States1328 Posts
August 15 2011 03:47 GMT
#20
Do you have any replays of the 9 pool build correctly executed? I downloaded the replay pack but it was all 15-hatches. Thanks!
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
August 15 2011 07:00 GMT
#21
Hey Ingenol, if you take a good lake, there is a section with 3 9 pool replay in the middle of the guide. Tell me if you can download them.
iNViCiOUZ
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany364 Posts
August 15 2011 07:56 GMT
#22
Nice writeup! very refind followup to the 9pool.
Since a view days i try 10pool here and there and its very good at the shipyard map (a lot of hatch first) gives me a solid lead against hatch first (cancel + some drones) when they don't quit outright.
But I always have problems with a good followup witout building some extra linqs. Definetly will try your queen and roach followup.

Is there a hugh difference between 9 pool and 10pool?
When do you research linqspeed?
Why not using the 9pool on the "hatch first" maps to punish a hatch first from the opponent?
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
August 15 2011 09:23 GMT
#23
aXa, I gave you a lot of shit in your last 9pool zvz guide, but I think I'm converted enough to give it some real time. I'm sure you're a better player than I am anyway, but I just have the most impossible time melieving you can be so even with 9pool opening.

I never see pros use it, but I agree with the logic that even a perfectly executed 14gaspool standard will still leave you more or less even. I just don't understand why.

I've been looking at it with a few friends, and it works but it doesn't make sense to me. I really like the ability to take initiative that early in a mirror matchup, but it bothers me that I don't ever see good players using it.

Why do you think this is? The only time I've ever seen any 9pool double queen build used at the pro level is when nexlife used it to stop a guy he knew was going for fast pool banes.
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
SC2Epic
Profile Joined June 2011
United States25 Posts
August 15 2011 09:47 GMT
#24
Wow, thanks for the guide! I'm going to try out your 9pool build in my ZvZ's now, although my play is fairly rusty so it might take a while to get it down perfectly. I'm going to use this post as a reference fairly regularly.
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
August 15 2011 10:09 GMT
#25
Pro player don't use it because it's not a viable option in tourney (You can do it once, but next time your opponent will be prepared) It's a ladder build, where your opponent is different each time and don't know you. Henceforth it is useless for them to practice it on ladder: They must practice their main build. We don't see spanishiwa style either in tourney, don't we?
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
August 15 2011 11:04 GMT
#26
On August 15 2011 19:09 aXa wrote:
Pro player don't use it because it's not a viable option in tourney (You can do it once, but next time your opponent will be prepared) It's a ladder build, where your opponent is different each time and don't know you. Henceforth it is useless for them to practice it on ladder: They must practice their main build. We don't see spanishiwa style either in tourney, don't we?


i think the difference here though is that the spanishiwa opener just isn't viable at all after a certain level, and at least what you're claiming is that this is a tourney-worthy build (at least once in a while). The same can't be said about spanishiwa's build (insofar as you're drawing this comparison).

I feel like perhaps 9pool can potentially have legitimate standing value at higher level play, at least for variety's sake. It just fails the intuition test (at least for me).

It seems like most players into mid and even some high master lack the faculties to really know when they can get away with drones here and there, and this build is fantastic at forcing the other player into making those decisions he's uncomfortable making, and that's where its strength lies.

For me as a mid-master zerg, I know that I would probably struggle consistently getting the upper hand against a good 9pool player.
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
Catgroove
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden67 Posts
August 15 2011 11:05 GMT
#27
...or you could be the player that is hard to predict and throws in a 9 pool every now and then just because it's good to be unpredictable and not letting your opponent cut any corners. (sup nestea)
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
August 15 2011 18:46 GMT
#28
Do i have to contact an admin for the [G] or will they do it in their own time?
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 02:11:01
August 15 2011 23:56 GMT
#29
On August 16 2011 03:46 aXa wrote:
Do i have to contact an admin for the [G] or will they do it in their own time?


If you rename it, could you add something about 9 pool in the title? This (and your last thread) are the only ones coherently discussing the topic.




axa,

I just tried this 9pool opener, pretty sloppy play all-around, but the early game felt pretty good. I'm not sure exactly where I went wrong (something to do with the roach production early), but it feels difficult to secure the expo against possible aggression.

I clearly had an advantage early that I lost, and I'd like your thoughts on what I could/should have done.

Replay
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
August 16 2011 07:35 GMT
#30
Sorry michael but i can't tell you what you did wrong because you didn't follow at all my instructions.
Read my guide carefully and try it again.
pStar
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
996 Posts
August 16 2011 08:34 GMT
#31
This build is absolutely awesome. Im only in silver but it works wonders. Now i know what some people would say JUST MACRO HURRR. Its the cheese that is the problem. With these early lings it can cause enough damage to prevent ling all ins etc.

And for me as a silver the whole writeup was brilliant, really helped me with ZvZ and I have won 5/5 games since doing this

tl;dr thanks
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
August 16 2011 11:21 GMT
#32
On August 16 2011 16:35 aXa wrote:
Sorry michael but i can't tell you what you did wrong because you didn't follow at all my instructions.
Read my guide carefully and try it again.


I guess what I'm asking is can you elaborate a bit more on securing your natural expansion. In the game I played on XNC, of course the natural is pretty open. I droned after my 6 lings and had the general mindset of your build (although the nuances were off, like extractor trick for the extra drone, and gas was late, made too many roach).

The reason I made so many roaches though is I didn't feel comfortable at all moving out to get my natural. In that position on XNC, do you change anything with this build? Do you just take it anyway even if you think your opponent might be massing for an all-in?

How can I belay these concerns and safely expand against a mass of speedlings when I only have 4-7 roaches and 2 queens which are too far removed from my natural to provide defense to the lings trying to force cancel. If I move out with my roaches to defend against the cancel, they can easily be surrounded (at least this is my feeling).

Just in general, it'd be great if you could explain a bit more of your thought processes behind securing the expansion with your build/strategy. After playing it a few times I do like it, but this is becoming an issue at least for me.
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
bmn
Profile Joined August 2010
886 Posts
August 16 2011 11:55 GMT
#33
On August 16 2011 20:21 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 16:35 aXa wrote:
Sorry michael but i can't tell you what you did wrong because you didn't follow at all my instructions.
Read my guide carefully and try it again.


I guess what I'm asking is can you elaborate a bit more on securing your natural expansion. In the game I played on XNC, of course the natural is pretty open. I droned after my 6 lings and had the general mindset of your build (although the nuances were off, like extractor trick for the extra drone, and gas was late, made too many roach).

The reason I made so many roaches though is I didn't feel comfortable at all moving out to get my natural. In that position on XNC, do you change anything with this build? Do you just take it anyway even if you think your opponent might be massing for an all-in?

How can I belay these concerns and safely expand against a mass of speedlings when I only have 4-7 roaches and 2 queens which are too far removed from my natural to provide defense to the lings trying to force cancel. If I move out with my roaches to defend against the cancel, they can easily be surrounded (at least this is my feeling).

Just in general, it'd be great if you could explain a bit more of your thought processes behind securing the expansion with your build/strategy. After playing it a few times I do like it, but this is becoming an issue at least for me.


I remember quite vividly that you were very vocal about how any decent zerg will completely own the 9pool by pulling drones with a speedling attack, using drones to attack the queens.
What happened to that objection?

I always thought it was rather far-fetched, and I have never seen anybody on the ladder do it, but you were quite adamant about this alone making the 9pool build useless.
bmn
Profile Joined August 2010
886 Posts
August 16 2011 12:02 GMT
#34
On August 15 2011 20:04 michaelhasanalias wrote:
It seems like most players into mid and even some high master lack the faculties to really know when they can get away with drones here and there, and this build is fantastic at forcing the other player into making those decisions he's uncomfortable making, and that's where its strength lies.

For me as a mid-master zerg, I know that I would probably struggle consistently getting the upper hand against a good 9pool player.


If you've done the build yourself a few times, you shouldn't struggle against someone else who is doing it. I only saw one other person using it against me; I just happened to go speedling expand that game instead of 9pooling myself, and this build is not scary at all if you know it's coming and you've played it yourself.

It's not trivial to hold, but since you already know when the roach push will come, you can safely drone very hard for very long. The 9pool build doesn't even get ling speed until way late, so there's absolutely no threat of sudden aggression.
You do need to get enough standing army in time to hold the roach push, but if you've played the build, you should be able to understand the timings well enough. You beat it by droning hard early, and only starting your army (and upgrades, etc.) later. You should have a faster expansion up, map control with speedlings, and there isn't much the other Zerg can hide that would kill you, although the three queens do make overlord base scouting a bad idea in general.

Doing the build myself, the only thing I've consistently lost to was people who knew when to drone, expanded quickly, and either went for mass upgraded roaches themselves or people who rushed infestors -- they seem to pop just in time to stop the roach push. (I started trying variations of this build against people rushing infestors, but not often enough to say whether my ideas are any good.)

michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
August 16 2011 12:34 GMT
#35
On August 16 2011 20:55 bmn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 20:21 michaelhasanalias wrote:
On August 16 2011 16:35 aXa wrote:
Sorry michael but i can't tell you what you did wrong because you didn't follow at all my instructions.
Read my guide carefully and try it again.


I guess what I'm asking is can you elaborate a bit more on securing your natural expansion. In the game I played on XNC, of course the natural is pretty open. I droned after my 6 lings and had the general mindset of your build (although the nuances were off, like extractor trick for the extra drone, and gas was late, made too many roach).

The reason I made so many roaches though is I didn't feel comfortable at all moving out to get my natural. In that position on XNC, do you change anything with this build? Do you just take it anyway even if you think your opponent might be massing for an all-in?

How can I belay these concerns and safely expand against a mass of speedlings when I only have 4-7 roaches and 2 queens which are too far removed from my natural to provide defense to the lings trying to force cancel. If I move out with my roaches to defend against the cancel, they can easily be surrounded (at least this is my feeling).

Just in general, it'd be great if you could explain a bit more of your thought processes behind securing the expansion with your build/strategy. After playing it a few times I do like it, but this is becoming an issue at least for me.


I remember quite vividly that you were very vocal about how any decent zerg will completely own the 9pool by pulling drones with a speedling attack, using drones to attack the queens.
What happened to that objection?

I always thought it was rather far-fetched, and I have never seen anybody on the ladder do it, but you were quite adamant about this alone making the 9pool build useless.


yeah, if you want to all-in, you can definitely do that and kill someone who tries to live with 2 queens and nothing behind it, but that goes from massing lings and being behind to super-duper unrecoverable all-in if you have a control failure.

That said, the reason I really am starting to like the idea of 9pool now (and axa has a convincing argument) is that whatever you sacrifice for the 9pool, even if you don't do any real damage is that you seize the initiative and don't ever let go of it unless YOU fail (for example, in my replay where I seize the initiative, am clearly ahead for a few minutes, and then piss it away with some poor decisions about roach production vs expansion security).

I will say that although it still feels like 9pool should be economically behind any well executed standard opener, it never seems to be in any game I see (and if it is, it's almost always the 9pooler's bad play, rather than the build itself). I won't say I understand why this is so, because I don't, but I'm content enough to accept it for now and start seriously messing with the build as a viable opener. aXa, at least in my opinion, has done a very good job explaining why this can be a good build (in his last thread I didn't think so as much, but this one is better I think).
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
August 16 2011 13:22 GMT
#36
Michael, i stopped watching the replay when i saw your late roach warren as well as 2 spine crawler leapfroging down the ramp. I never mentioned spinecrawler in my guide. As i said, there is nothing special on xel naga cavern. Try to do exactly the build and you'll see it's safer than it appears. Sometimes overthinking can be deadly ^^
firehand101
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3152 Posts
August 16 2011 13:30 GMT
#37
lol i cracked up when u explained what #$# the other races throw, ur funny!
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
oSaRon
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2 Posts
August 17 2011 04:28 GMT
#38
Thanks for this build aXa, it helped me a lot in my ZvZ which was a disaster.
Benjerry
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden9 Posts
August 17 2011 08:14 GMT
#39
Ditto - nice fun build to mix up the standard builds (on the smaller maps). As mentioned above, you will lose to people who just drone hard after the initial attack, but that´s rather rare. Getting 9-pooled tends to rattle people pretty hard, and it´s solid fun to be doing the rattling.

AxA: What are your thoughts on current ZvT, specifically holding the mid-game siege-marine push as a mid-skill (High diamond) Zerg, with non-gosu micro?
shoooryuken
Profile Joined May 2011
France14 Posts
August 17 2011 08:18 GMT
#40
Hi Axa, i love your threads, i use your 9 pool on ZvP with a lot of pleasure.
For ZvZ, i prefer use a 11 overpool, but, i'll going to test your 9 pool, i promise.


3 questions:

- can you update your 9pool on ZvP (with recent replays?)
- why do you ban Abyssal Cavern? i'll found this map is very interesting for ZvT and ZvP.
- when your opponent gone on 11 overpool fast speedlings => banelings like ImBaLowely or a timing attac like fast 26 speedlings, how do you react?

I cant watch your recent replay on my office, i'm watching this weekend
oh, and i'm french, if you can/want playing a game or 2? (i'm only in diamond, but i'm very friendly :D

aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-17 09:12:58
August 17 2011 08:49 GMT
#41
Hey shoooryuken, i can't update the 9 pool ZvP thread because it's outdated. It maybe works in diamond but it certainly doesn't in master, protoss learned to react properly with ease. (And the ling/bling/ultra compo is now vastly used, by morrow and destiny mainly, i can't pretend having a better strat than them).

Abyssal Cavern has short rush distance and a far, far 3rd, quite hard to hold. The Xel naga Tower is near impossible to hold with a melee unit like a zergling, the paths are narrow and it's hard to get a surround with speedling because of rocks blocking most of the ways around.

Against 11 overpool, i let my zergling die, then i don't wall off with queens until my roaches are out. Then i'm safe.

Add aXa 687
shoooryuken
Profile Joined May 2011
France14 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-17 10:48:46
August 17 2011 10:47 GMT
#42
thx for your rapidity

9pool on ZvP, for me, is just a way to expand quickly without photon rush..., while leaving me the opportunity to scoot and maybe create an overreact. 1/2 game i 'm just pop 2 glings and 2 drones and not 6 glings and an extractor trick just before the overlord.
The composition ling/bling/ultra was a very big evolution of my game and I am grateful.

for abyssal cavern, i dont share the same feelings but is not the subject of this thread and i dont want to troll this.

Ok for the 11 overpool, i'll try 9pool quickly (and i'll contact this week end if you are connected)


Thx for all (again )
Magus.423
Profile Joined July 2011
France33 Posts
August 17 2011 11:43 GMT
#43
I'm an user of your ZvP 9 pool. It works great in diamond, i can't tell for the master level.

I'll try your ZvZ 9 pool. Thanks for this guide !
No whine, just play.
bmn
Profile Joined August 2010
886 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-17 12:50:51
August 17 2011 12:50 GMT
#44
On August 17 2011 19:47 shoooryuken wrote:
thx for your rapidity

9pool on ZvP, for me, is just a way to expand quickly without photon rush..., while leaving me the opportunity to scoot and maybe create an overreact. 1/2 game i 'm just pop 2 glings and 2 drones and not 6 glings and an extractor trick just before the overlord.
The composition ling/bling/ultra was a very big evolution of my game and I am grateful.

for abyssal cavern, i dont share the same feelings but is not the subject of this thread and i dont want to troll this.

Ok for the 11 overpool, i'll try 9pool quickly (and i'll contact this week end if you are connected)


Thx for all (again )


Also slightly off-topic, but I recommend using the 11overpool for ZvP if you often don't even build any lings. It's a lot more economic than 9pool, and the lings get out just in time to kill the scouting probe. (Usually they don't even build a pylon if they see early pool, but they still leave the probe, and would block your nat if you didn't build a pair of lings.
If the pylon is already there, extractor trick + 4 lings (two sets instead of one) to take it down more quickly, and to take down any gateway block he might try.)
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
August 17 2011 13:57 GMT
#45
Hey guys, i updated the OP, there is VOD available, casted by Day9 during After Hours Gaming League !
galtdunn
Profile Joined March 2011
United States977 Posts
August 17 2011 14:40 GMT
#46
O.o good guide. I will definitely try this as a alternative to my wacky ZvZ.
Currently editing items in the DotA 2 wiki. PM for questions/suggestions.
Qxz
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada189 Posts
August 17 2011 16:47 GMT
#47
Small typo, you wrote Nezarim Crypt rather than Nerazim Crypt.
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
August 17 2011 19:04 GMT
#48
Thx. I saw that i wrote have instead of has. Shame on me..
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
August 18 2011 12:38 GMT
#49
Hey guy's, here a new replay against a weird 9 pool fast speedling, similar to a 11 pool i guess.

[url blocked]
oSaRon
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-18 17:36:52
August 18 2011 17:29 GMT
#50
Thanks, I like how be blames the lag
Thraundil
Profile Joined August 2010
Denmark278 Posts
August 20 2011 14:17 GMT
#51
Phew. I adopted this strategy after a rough patch in mirrors, and I gotta say it really works wonders. Only one time I messed it up and lost, other than that im 6 for 7 with it... The followup roach push is so gruesome if he just droned slightly too much.
Hivemind! Just like IRL...
XcelShark
Profile Joined November 2010
Bulgaria17 Posts
August 21 2011 10:12 GMT
#52
Great thread axa! I will start applying it on ladder soon ^^.
Choose life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose good health, low cholesterol and dental insurance. Choose fixed- interest. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that...
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-22 12:18:35
August 21 2011 10:49 GMT
#53
Thx! Another great replay 9 pool vs hatch first

[url blocked]

and hatch first vs hatch first

[url blocked]

vs mass speedling agression:

[url blocked]
shoooryuken
Profile Joined May 2011
France14 Posts
August 25 2011 18:02 GMT
#54
cool thx for the new replays
amacwhinnie
Profile Joined August 2010
21 Posts
August 26 2011 16:39 GMT
#55
mebe im missing it but do you scout for where to send lings on 4 palyer maps and if so when?
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
August 26 2011 17:10 GMT
#56
It's in the OP, take a better look
amacwhinnie
Profile Joined August 2010
21 Posts
August 30 2011 20:57 GMT
#57
ops and sorry for taking your time when i was being stupid. anyhow it was your fault really all i wanted was scout at 10/10 buy you had so much detail i didn't see it
great write up thanks
Ponyo
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-30 22:41:42
August 30 2011 22:41 GMT
#58
Awesome guide dude. I really liked your original 9 pool build and used it for a lot of my whole learning process of ZvZ. Really awesome on small and 2player maps.
ponyo.848
OxyFuel
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada195 Posts
September 03 2011 05:05 GMT
#59
Great write up! I'm going to be working on doing this consistently in zvz from now on.
Flash | Boxer | qxc | KawaiiRice | LuckyFool | Avilo
lowallyn
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada84 Posts
September 08 2011 23:08 GMT
#60
I saw the zvt thread and searched your name for this thread as well =D

thankyou so much it's helped my zvz quite a bit
Eat bitter.
Temporarykid
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada362 Posts
September 08 2011 23:52 GMT
#61
Great write up, I've been 11pooling but after reading what you wrote I think I'll switch to a 9pool! : )

Also might I ask where you got such high res pics of the unit portrait for the zergling? That is super sweet and I'd love one of the hydralisk!
ㅈㅈ
zeOllie
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Australia486 Posts
September 08 2011 23:55 GMT
#62
Great guide, when I get around to in-depth studying I'm sure I'll learn alot!
When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love.
flcHoOt
Profile Joined September 2011
United States15 Posts
September 09 2011 00:23 GMT
#63
Epic. This is the only word that came to my mind as I read your heavily detailed build. Very nice. I love it thanks a lot. I struggle with zvz so hopefully this helps me out. I think it will.
Fear is The Mind Killer
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-09 08:48:19
September 09 2011 08:46 GMT
#64
On September 09 2011 08:52 Temporarykid wrote:
Great write up, I've been 11pooling but after reading what you wrote I think I'll switch to a 9pool! : )

Also might I ask where you got such high res pics of the unit portrait for the zergling? That is super sweet and I'd love one of the hydralisk!


I just googled it in google image, so i'm not sure i will be able to help you out with the hydra :/

Edit: Actually i found the site related, and here is their hydra pic

shoooryuken
Profile Joined May 2011
France14 Posts
September 16 2011 15:04 GMT
#65
Hello,

I use with a lot of fun your OB for almost three weeks, however, i have big problems against mass speedling.

The opponent confine me in my base, and i cant take my b2 in good time. After if I go out to attack, he rush me hard with speedlings and try the trade base. if i dont get out, he go on muta with a lot of spin crawler with extra minerals, and i cant try the trade base.


Otherwise 7 / 10 BO your work on small cards. For large maps, I still prefer my 26 speedling.

Thank you.

Sorry for my english again, gg traductor isnt very good today
KillerSOS
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States4207 Posts
September 29 2011 16:49 GMT
#66
I think the pictures add alot to the guide >_>

in all seriousness though, good guide.
neurosx
Profile Joined August 2011
Luxembourg1096 Posts
October 05 2011 23:24 GMT
#67
I'm going to try this, zvz makes me so sick that I don't even want to play anymore. Hope it will work
You'll wish I'd never stooped to notice you.
VaLix
Profile Joined December 2011
United States5 Posts
February 02 2012 01:59 GMT
#68
This isn't terribly old, so I would suppose it would still be viable? Would anyone happen to know where to find some replays for this? Megaupload, the site he used to put the replays out there, has been taken down ([url blocked]).

Apologies if this is not bump worthy, I'm just really hoping to get some replays so I can get a grip on this build.
enykie
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany64 Posts
April 18 2012 13:30 GMT
#69
its fun to play, i use it a lot (diamond level)
but i think its a buildorder loss vs 14 pool 16 hatch (or similar), that a lot people do these days.

User was warned for this post
dynwar7
Profile Joined May 2011
1983 Posts
April 18 2012 14:32 GMT
#70
On April 18 2012 22:30 enykie wrote:
its fun to play, i use it a lot (diamond level)
but i think its a buildorder loss vs 14 pool 16 hatch (or similar), that a lot people do these days.


Epic bump bro.....was that really necessary?
Regarding the imbalance, hilarious to see Zergs defending themselves....
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 7m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 4381
Nal_rA 471
Leta 289
PianO 243
JulyZerg 79
Aegong 57
Sacsri 51
Backho 29
GoRush 25
Bale 22
[ Show more ]
soO 19
Dota 2
XcaliburYe21
League of Legends
JimRising 749
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K777
Super Smash Bros
Westballz53
Other Games
summit1g14533
WinterStarcraft451
SortOf80
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1029
BasetradeTV42
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta54
• Light_VIP 50
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush1828
• Stunt609
• HappyZerGling250
Other Games
• Scarra2644
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3h 7m
WardiTV European League
9h 7m
PiGosaur Monday
17h 7m
OSC
1d 5h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 9h
The PondCast
2 days
Online Event
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
Online Event
4 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
FEL Cracow 2025
Underdog Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
CC Div. A S7
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.