EPTHow important is tank spread in the tvz matchup? Does the significance of this spread change with the number of tanks you have? I'm just asking because I've recently been losing battles I feel like I should be winning, or at least be more even. Especially in the early-midgame with a healthy batch of marines and 3-4 tanks.
The Terran Help Me Thread - Page 61
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halpimcat
215 Posts
How important is tank spread in the tvz matchup? Does the significance of this spread change with the number of tanks you have? I'm just asking because I've recently been losing battles I feel like I should be winning, or at least be more even. Especially in the early-midgame with a healthy batch of marines and 3-4 tanks. | ||
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MtlGuitarist97
United States1539 Posts
Question: How important is tank spread in the tvz matchup? Does the significance of this spread change with the number of tanks you have? I'm just asking because I've recently been losing battles I feel like I should be winning, or at least be more even. Especially in the early-midgame with a healthy batch of marines and 3-4 tanks. It's incredibly important. You need to just make sure that all of your tanks are not clumped up. They don't have to be ridiculously spread out, just enough that 10 lings won't kill all your tanks  | ||
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Kid-Fox
Canada400 Posts
I'm not going to cry imba because it makes no difference at mid-diamond level. However, I don't have anything solid to run off of like a 3 tank marine timing push before spire or anything. I just reactor hellion into drops into either killing my opponent quickly or getting dominated by mutalisks. I've watch a ButteryLlama vs Gretorp replay where Gretorp turtled to 3/3 on three bases and then attacking while taking his 4th. Is this something you see often or is it out of the ordinary? I really just want to have the most standard strategy possible so I can work on all the little things. All my builds are either bad or gimmicky as hell. | ||
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
On November 06 2011 07:04 Kid-Fox wrote: Can somebody give me the absolute standard, macro based TvZ standard standard build order? I'm completely lost in this goddamn matchup. Mutas come? I try to defend while zerg gets 3rd base up, then mass mass zergling baneling mutalisk roflstomps anything I have, even at 200 food.I try to get 3rd base? mass zergling rolls in and mutas rip me to shreds. Infestors? I can't attack in because my marines get fungalled to death while mass zerglings roll in and clean up everything, then Broodlords abuse me. Or, mass mass zerglings just ruin my day. I'm not going to cry imba because it makes no difference at mid-diamond level. However, I don't have anything solid to run off of like a 3 tank marine timing push before spire or anything. I just reactor hellion into drops into either killing my opponent quickly or getting dominated by mutalisks. I've watch a ButteryLlama vs Gretorp replay where Gretorp turtled to 3/3 on three bases and then attacking while taking his 4th. Is this something you see often or is it out of the ordinary? I really just want to have the most standard strategy possible so I can work on all the little things. All my builds are either bad or gimmicky as hell. Too vague imo. Need a replay to really pinpoint what you're doing wrong. Your entire 1st paragraph is an applicable description to most standard TvZs gone wrong, it's the end resultant point of convergence which could be the consequence of a variety of factors: weak macro / failure to pressure the zerg enough early / slow upgrades etc. | ||
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halpimcat
215 Posts
On November 06 2011 06:58 MtlGuitarist97 wrote: It's incredibly important. You need to just make sure that all of your tanks are not clumped up. They don't have to be ridiculously spread out, just enough that 10 lings won't kill all your tanks So the tanks have a higher rate of survival if they're not clumped up. Does it affect the amount of damage they would deal as well (a larger distribution of damage)? | ||
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
On November 06 2011 07:23 halpimcat wrote: So the tanks have a higher rate of survival if they're not clumped up. Does it affect the amount of damage they would deal as well (a larger distribution of damage)? Don't think so. In a marine-siege tank comp, your marines are your main DPS dealers, with tanks being there primarily for banelings, so as long as you manage to maximise your baneling kills they've done their job. | ||
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halpimcat
215 Posts
On November 06 2011 07:28 S_SienZ wrote: Don't think so. In a marine-siege tank comp, your marines are your main DPS dealers, with tanks being there primarily for banelings, so as long as you manage to maximise your baneling kills they've done their job. Thanks for the tip. I'll try to keep that in mind | ||
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MysteryHours
United States168 Posts
On November 06 2011 06:52 mazwoo wrote: hey everyone, i really dont know how to deal with a protoss army lategame. I just get rolled everytime, mostly by speed zealots and HT's, or speed zealots and colossi. I'm in plat. and got there by 1rax expanding everytime and really opting for a long game. I'm not a huge bio-fan, but i feel like terrans dont really have a choice in the matchup so i use a standard mmm with vikings and ghosts obviosly. http://drop.sc/53392 Now i know i play far from perfect and should do more drops, pokes etc. But just focusing on the final engagement, what can i do to come out ahead and what went wrong in that fight. I would really appreciate some help. Your EMPs were good but not good enough. Neither of the archons got hit and more importantly, 1 HT makes it though with full energy. Unfortunately, 2 good storms are all it takes to lose an engagement like this. Since you saw him coming in advance, you should have spread into a better arch to minimize splash damage and ensure full DPS. Notice that when the engagement beings you have quite a few units not participating at all. I don't know what the exact ideal unit comp is but you may have had too many medivacs and ghosts. 5 high energy ghosts should be enough for a late game fight. You had 12 medivacs with tons of energy but if you watch the fight play out half of them weren't doing much due to positioning and the fact that they moved with your army when you had to back out of the storm. In TvP, large full-on engagements like this can be tricky so I recommend to do everything you can to have the engagement happen on your terms, through drops and small trades. | ||
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gr8stalin
United States20 Posts
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3713611/Nerazim Crypt (39).SC2Replay http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3713611/Shakuras Plateau (40).SC2Replay Any help would be appreciated | ||
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MysteryHours
United States168 Posts
On November 06 2011 11:07 gr8stalin wrote: Howdy, I'm in low/mid gold, and I'm generally having trouble. My problems in TvT and TvZ are ones that I understand, which lay mainly in keeping up with macro, launching harassment first, and spending minerals/gas. However, my TvP is especially bad. Most of the Ps I go against usually go against do "cute" stuff they saw on GSL or IPL and other tournaments/player streams, and even when I catch them, they've usually got the whole ball of death thing going. It's mostly early and mid-game stuff that destroys me. I usually try to tech into ghosts but by the time I finish mobius reactor the deathball rolls in and I just don't have enough stuff to stop it. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3713611/Nerazim Crypt (39).SC2Replay http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3713611/Shakuras Plateau (40).SC2Replay Any help would be appreciated In game 1 you kept up with him macro wise but had a terrible engagement. You were backed into a dead end, which is a terrible place to be against protoss. I don't know if your plan was to elevator up or what but you never want to put yourself in a position like that, especially since you can't be sure if an observer is following your army. A better way to have attacked would have been to send your army toward his natural and at the same time a drop into his main. Also try to get in the habit of training units while you're moving out and engaging, it's really important to have units at home waiting after the attack is over. Game 2 you lost to unanswered colossus. You see he has colossus on the field during your drop but you never start viking production even though you have an idle reactored starport. Against multiple colossus you will lose unless you have vikings. The rule of thumb is 3 vikings per colossus. Also, you pretty much stopped making SCVs after his drop at 9:30 through the end of the game even though you desperately needed more. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On November 06 2011 07:28 S_SienZ wrote: Don't think so. In a marine-siege tank comp, your marines are your main DPS dealers, with tanks being there primarily for banelings, so as long as you manage to maximise your baneling kills they've done their job. Tanks force the issue, and force the engagement. Clumping tanks lets the zerg surround you with zerglings, and make a large amount of tanks worthless with splash. The key to marine tank (thor) pushes is to do it slowly . I'm learning this myself as I am too fast and aggressive, but a slow tank push is key. You expo behind drops, or pressure. You spread tanks as it makes it harder for zerg to move INTO your arc/ball/army whatever you have. With them clumped it's one obstacle to jump. Spread nicely they have to completely commit, or running away will cost as much as committing. | ||
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
http://drop.sc/53528 Feedback is very much appreciated. | ||
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
Was also thinking about going up to 3 reactor starport by lategame. With the protoss being able to easily tech switch between Templar and Collosi play, figured as Terran the faster we can adapt, the better. Just some random thoughts that entered my mind when thinking about TvP yesterday. Thoughts? | ||
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MysteryHours
United States168 Posts
On November 06 2011 21:24 KenDM wrote: Well, I tried a 2Rax expand and even a ninja expo of some sorts. I still couldn't win, I'm so flabbergasted as to what to do. I held off the pressure, that's a first. But what happened then was so weird. Warp prims, DT's. All so OP. i even destroyed two of his bases and had 2 mining bases myself. How did I lose? =/ http://drop.sc/53528 Feedback is very much appreciated. The DT drop hurt but you were still ahead after that was cleaned up. In the future a turret in each mineral line can help slow down something like this but ultimately you're going to need to keep some forces at home to deal with drops. Be active with scouting and if you see a dark shrine or DTs on the field add a raven to your army. What lost you the game if you didn't seal the deal during your doom push. At 26:00 you're mowing through his base and he's got nothing left defending. This is when you need to split off some units to scout any remaining bases. After you cleaned up the DTs you could have marched right up to his last base and won the game but instead he was given enough time to make a bunch of void rays. Even at the point where you quit you might have still been able to win. Your army was much bigger, so instead of trying to deal with the void rays you could have started a base trade with him, while sending some SCVs around the map to build command centers. | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
I don't even know where to start because although I do make mistakes, I don't know if I'm missing some kind of fundamental idea about the matchup. It's driving me insane. I can't win vs Protoss much either but at least in that matchup I don't feel completely helpless. If anybody wants to watch my replays and help me out it'd be greatly appreciated. http://drop.sc/53550 http://drop.sc/53552 http://drop.sc/53551 | ||
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Avril_Lavigne
United States446 Posts
I do many variations of the 2 rax in my TvP, mainly the TSL Polt 2 rax where he goes reactor first and pushes out with 2 marauders and pressures. I've tried advices by other people where you try to get in their face and force them to show their hand which in many cases I lose my army and have not enough to deal with the oncoming voidray all in. I tried to defend with bunkers, but sometimes due to placement they can either contain me, or harrass me long enough for them to get so far ahead. Please give me some general advice!  (( | ||
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Nightshake
France412 Posts
As Avril Lavigne, i loose against starport, not against void ray all-in but against Phoenix Colossus transition. Just lost against a noob who gave me every phoenix he had. I pushed with one ghost and MM, and I still loose. The he just pushed with Colossus and I lost. I just can't understand why Protoss are raging against Terran. I just don't understand. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 07 2011 01:09 Avril_Lavigne wrote: Hi I'm a High Master League terran currently at like 700+ points for season 4 and I still cannot absolutely beat any variation of voidray all ins by protoss whether if it's just a stsandard voidray all in or proxy voidray all in I just can't beat it. I don't have any replays but can anyone PLEASE give me any sort of general advice on how they defend this?? I've searched TL and haven't really found anything on it that I could specifically relate to, if there is any thread out there please refer it to me. I do many variations of the 2 rax in my TvP, mainly the TSL Polt 2 rax where he goes reactor first and pushes out with 2 marauders and pressures. I've tried advices by other people where you try to get in their face and force them to show their hand which in many cases I lose my army and have not enough to deal with the oncoming voidray all in. I tried to defend with bunkers, but sometimes due to placement they can either contain me, or harrass me long enough for them to get so far ahead. Please give me some general advice! ((Hi, Master Terran here. Since voidray all-ins come along with 3 gates, I'd advise againt forcing fights near the Protoss base as the Protoss player will have enough to repel you without losing too much himself. On the contrary, you should avoid to lose troops here and there (especially Marines) as the Protoss all-in will otherwise slowly grow out of control. This afternoon, I played against a proxy voidray all-in. Though I started with 1 rax gasless FE and made some mistakes defending it (the biggest being not making one or two turrets in my mineral line), maybe you'll get a few tips from it nonetheless : Defending a voidray all-in off a 1 rax gasless FE I think the key points are : a) Not forgetting to build additional Supply depots, because they are a target of choice for the Protoss player (especially if you walled). Being supply blocked in those situations will simply make you lose. b) Holding near bunkers on top of the ramp (or at the front of your base if there is no ramp) while teching to Starport... About Starport, I'd say the choice between producing Medivacs or Vikings is really situationnal. Another option is to build 3 more Barracks and build Marines with them. c) Not overstimming. Without medivacs, it is very important to stim wisely... Otherwise, the Protoss may be able to simply retreat a bit while your troops will remain permanently damaged. Mistakes in the replay were (aside from the somewhat fail scouting) : a) Not getting additional Barracks earlier ; b) Not getting one or two missile Turrets in my mineral line ; c) I could have made additional Bunkers too ; d) Not pulling some SCVs for the main fight (thus I would have lost less Marines and still be ahead thanks to the two OCs). In the replay, I also got the turret range upgrade. Not sure if it was worth it, but it should allow your turrets to deny more space to Voidrays. As the Protoss is one-basing (chronoboosted Voidrays take too much of his income for him to expand, at least for a while), time should be your ally, especially if you have an in-base second Orbital. It is important to remain calm and not forgetting to macro, as these situations are stressful and can make you forget crucial things (e. g. Supply depots) which shall be your doom. Marines are of course your best bet (don't forget Combat Shields after Stim !), but I think you still need some Marauders for Stalkers. I would not make more than one Marauder at a time, though. | ||
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MepHiii
Poland191 Posts
On November 07 2011 00:21 Absentia wrote: OK I can no longer win TvZ....literally. I don't even know where to start because although I do make mistakes, I don't know if I'm missing some kind of fundamental idea about the matchup. It's driving me insane. I can't win vs Protoss much either but at least in that matchup I don't feel completely helpless. Wow, I had exactly the same feeling, like I was missing some big thing. I ended up concentrating on 1 rax expand into bfh into marine tank push. late game mass marine drops. It's gotten better but not the best. My main problem is TvT now, I've ran into an extreme example of how bad I am at TvT. If anyone can tell me what the main problems are, please let me know. At minute 14, I had killed 37 workers and was up by 30 workers, yet still managed to lose the game 16 minutes after. The things I realise are: build more workers, cause he catches up by 20 workers without me building a single one. Also, put a single marine at possible expansions. Other than that, I am helpless. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)AllStar_vs_(T)MepH/15456 If anyone can tell me where else I went wrong, that would be gorgeous. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 07 2011 03:32 MepHiii wrote: Wow, I had exactly the same feeling, like I was missing some big thing. I ended up concentrating on 1 rax expand into bfh into marine tank push. late game mass marine drops. It's gotten better but not the best. My main problem is TvT now, I've ran into an extreme example of how bad I am at TvT. If anyone can tell me what the main problems are, please let me know. At minute 14, I had killed 37 workers and was up by 30 workers, yet still managed to lose the game 16 minutes after. The things I realise are: build more workers, cause he catches up by 20 workers without me building a single one. Also, put a single marine at possible expansions. Other than that, I am helpless. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)AllStar_vs_(T)MepH/15456 If anyone can tell me where else I went wrong, that would be gorgeous. Hi, At the 16' mark, you could have simply a-moved to victory (or at least contain him, preventing him from catching up thanks to the gold) after you broke the contain. Remember that in small fights (which was the situation at this point), unsieged tanks can advance against sieged tanks, especially if Marines draw the enemy fire. It's sometimes better to simply attack move rather than using Siege mode. One of your problems lies in the production facilities : if you're planning on playing Marines/Tanks, you should get reactors on your Barracks way earlier, and make your third Factory only once you get your third base. You also forgot to get Combat Shields and stopped upgrading your Marines after 1/1. On the 22'30 fight, you lost all your Marines unnecessarily : since you got your Tanks in position to prevent him from mining his gold, you had no need at all to throw away all your Marines. Had you used them to kick his fourth base instead, you could have won easily. | ||
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