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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
I highly doubt ForGG is doing this because "TvZ is a joke right now". I truelly think he has some reason for doing it and some gameplan in mind since he do it EVERY game. Maybe it's something like "If I force Zerglings now, I will delay his Lair tech and mutalisks, and therefore I can take a easier third base".
It's not as if he just play random and sometime he just throw them in there to maybe do some sick damage. He does it every time.
I think it's so stupid of you to say "It's pretty terrible in general, and I'd advise against it". You're basically saying ForGG is playing terrible and that you expect people to listen to your advise instead of looking at what some of the progamers are doing.
Ofcourse, I think throwing Hellions into the base without gameplan is stupid. But if the guy who asked the question (That I replied to and gave him tip about ForGG stream) wants to know more, and if he study the game and realize WHY ForGG does what he do. I really don't think it is terrible.
Hellions forces into zerglings or roaches and spines against some sort of runbyes and banshee with cloak forces into spores or overseer. All these stuff costs larva, that means lower drone count and less economy.
Banshees can kill roaming roaches and banelings, also manages to get down some creep tumors, so less creep spread on the map. If you at least did damage with your hellions to drones then banshee can kill some of them with only 1 shot instead of 2.
But you need very good multi-task to execute this strategy successfully: banshees and hellions control while macroing hard home. Really hard.
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On June 25 2012 13:45 xertion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 13:34 Starshaped wrote:On June 25 2012 09:34 iAmJeffReY wrote:On June 25 2012 06:41 Starshaped wrote:
I've decided to 1base all-in every TvZ until a patch or switch to Z, not sure yet.
Anyway, can anyone recommend some really cheesy/gimmicky all-ins? So far all I have is proxy 9/9 rax.
Edit: 2base all-ins are welcome, too. Do a demuslim like opening, but drop 2 gas, tech lab the factory, and push out on stim cs +1 blue flame. Get BF right after stim, and then swap reactor onto factory, and land rax on tech lab. Churn marines until BF is done from all 3 rax, then do triple marauder production, with BF hellions, and move out with some of your SCVs as well for a marine marauder BF hellion stim cs +1 BF push. If they muta, you're fucked if you don't kill them. Dodge/split banes, let scvs soak up whatever. Roach ling cannot defend you AT ALL. Got any replays of it? I think I saw Kawaiirice do a similar build (sans the marauders) and it got kind of raped by infestors. On June 25 2012 12:37 xertion wrote:On June 25 2012 11:50 deeshoo wrote:
Need some help with some decision making regarding the TvZ 1RaxFE into Hellion Banshee build. I know the general build order; I just don't know what I should do regarding how to harass the zerg with it. Should I suicide my hellions and try to get some drones? Target queens? Should I be going for cloak as well? Also, to transition out, should I start my 3rd CC before getting production and upgrades? Or reverse order? Haven't seen enough games regarding what to do with this build (aside from the one where MKP auto-won vs YuGiOh).
Diamond NA
edit: added matchup ForGG goes this build in like 90% of his TvZ on his stream. You should check it out. He almost always suecide his first 4 hellions. Sometime he do almost 0 drone kills, sometime he get like 10 dronekills. However, he always damage drones. Maybe the reason he does this is because the banshee will be able to kill them even faster later, or maybe it is because he wants to force additional lings and delay any evo chamber or lair tech to protect the zerg from cloak banshee. I'm not sure exactly WHY he always suecide these. But he does it over and over again, even straight after a game where he lost them all without doing almost any damage. I think he's just hoping to do a lot of damage by catching the Zerg off-guard. It's pretty terrible in general, and I'd advise against it if not for the fact that TvZ is a joke right now. So yeah, do gimmicky stuff like suiciding your hellions, because you won't win by playing safe anyway. Might as well take huge risks etc.until a patch is released. I highly doubt ForGG is doing this because "TvZ is a joke right now". I truelly think he has some reason for doing it and some gameplan in mind since he do it EVERY game. Maybe it's something like "If I force Zerglings now, I will delay his Lair tech and mutalisks, and therefore I can take a easier third base". It's not as if he just play random and sometime he just throw them in there to maybe do some sick damage. He does it every time. I think it's so stupid of you to say "It's pretty terrible in general, and I'd advise against it". You're basically saying ForGG is playing terrible and that you expect people to listen to your advise instead of looking at what some of the progamers are doing. Ofcourse, I think throwing Hellions into the base without gameplan is stupid. But if the guy who asked the question (That I replied to and gave him tip about ForGG stream) wants to know more, and if he study the game and realize WHY ForGG does what he do. I really don't think it is terrible.
Oh, I'm not allowed to disagree with ForGG because he's a progamer? Truth is that if you lose those hellions without doing a lot of damage it's over for you. If you see an opening, go for it, but if he really does do it *every* single game it seems to me he's just taking risks in the hopes of getting ahead, or he's going for some 2base all-in so if he does kill drones he can go win with his push.
My point is that it's situational, and generally you don't want to throw away your hellions because you lose so much and the Zerg feels really safe after he stops you. However, most Zergs these days are playing really, really light defense-wise, and most Terrans are too scared to send hellions into their base, so if ForGG is sending in hellions every game then he's most likely taking advantage of this fact. I do, however, stand by my statement (which was basically a concise version of what I just said): It is in general bad to blindly suicide your hellions, but since TvZ is what it is you might as well take risks and cut corners, since a lot of Zergs are.
Not to mention the fact that the queen buff does make hellions less effective, so it's not AS big of a deal to lose them as it would have been before the queen buff, but it's still a pretty big commitment.
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http://drop.sc/packs/1141
13 TvZ reps where I open either 1rax cc or cc first Hellion/Banshee and transition into both mech and bio. My win% is good with this opening against high masters and at least one gm zerg.
I don't know how forgg does it, but my opening is very different from what Sculp used in gstl recently. Compared to sculp I make a lot more hellions and banshees. As the numbers grow I can kill queens or force them off the creep front enabling me to kill off tumors. As my hellion force increases I can split them up to exploit any weaknesses my cloaked banshees scout. As the banshees grow they can take on more queens (especially with some hellion support, as a wall to prevent running if nothing else) and whatever isn't completely defended by spores. Cloak enables them to flee from muta if z makes them.
Provided my control is adequate I can use the banshees for the rest of the game to scout their composition and army movement and/or to deny/harass expansions. If they're around lategame (e.g. with mech) they can be used in an additional capacity to distract corruptors leaving a broodlord forced undefended.
The hellions don't need to kill drones; but likely as the game goes on opportunities to get kills with hellion or banshee increase. For bio play the hellions can replace tanks as ling-killers later in game; and delaying rax production with increased hellion production isn't a disadvantage since if zerg is going heavy queen there's no chance of fast muta. Hellion/Banshee deals with everthing until my unit production is good. Good control gets a lot out of the units the longer the game goes. Even if zerg has perfect defense for an entire game (unlikely if not impossible) they're accomplishing that at opportunity-costs that enable you to secure more income and/or deny their increased income.
I'm not sure what's giving every terran so much trouble in tvz now. I have about equal success with mech and bio in exclusively long games. Are you guys just too midgame focused and struggling lategame?
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United States4883 Posts
On June 25 2012 14:44 Starshaped wrote:
My point is that it's situational, and generally you don't want to throw away your hellions because you lose so much and the Zerg feels really safe after he stops you. However, most Zergs these days are playing really, really light defense-wise, and most Terrans are too scared to send hellions into their base, so if ForGG is sending in hellions every game then he's most likely taking advantage of this fact. I do, however, stand by my statement (which was basically a concise version of what I just said): It is in general bad to blindly suicide your hellions, but since TvZ is what it is you might as well take risks and cut corners, since a lot of Zergs are.
Not to mention the fact that the queen buff does make hellions less effective, so it's not AS big of a deal to lose them as it would have been before the queen buff, but it's still a pretty big commitment.
If I may, I would suggest that, in the old style of playing terran, it was universally awful to suicide 4 hellions because you would give up map control, dps for a 9:30 attack, and a way to control creep spread.
Now, I am with Starshaped in that I never like to throw away units for POSSIBLE damage. But considering the strategy is MASS REACTOR HELLION + BANSHEES, it seems like losing the first 4 hellions is in no way a detriment to the things stated above (map control, 9:30 attack, creep spread). That in mind, I see no problem with trying to make something happen with the initial 4 hellions.
And BTW, I still don't agree with this "TvZ is BS, I'm gonna take stupid risks and all-in because I can't possibly beat zerg any other way". I think if more terrans took the time to problem solve and quit bitching, they would find very simple counters to what the zerg is doing (AKA the qxc bunker). No more of this "I'm just gonna wait until the next patch for Blizzard to fix things". FIX THINGS YOURSELF.
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Hi everyone, i'M terran diamond and i have difficulties to search What aspect of my game i have to improve. I watch all my games but it'S very indecisive, i can't find a thing to work on at a time, and the result is that i don't improve as much as i should. It is very hard for me to search and find a style(Ex:Bio, Bio/mech, mech...) and then stick to it for better and faster improvement. So in the hope that you'll heLp me, i give you some replays :
replay pack
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On June 25 2012 09:33 Starshaped wrote:I know a lot of people before were asking about defending marine/tank 1base when going 1rax FE, and since I switched computer I had no replays of it, but I recently played against it on ladder so I'll share it for those interested (high master EU): http://replayfu.com/r/BFwKjhIt's what I was talking about before, 1rax FE into immediately taking double gas and rushing towards 1-1-1. Mind you, this is the fastest possible siegepush (no starport) and I still get siege on time, and even on closer spawn maps you can normally stall with the bunker until siege is ready. I also transition into mech, for anyone interested in how to do it after opening FE -> 1-1-1, but he ggs pretty quickly so it doesn't really flesh out.
Hi Fellow Terrans
I posted on the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread and got no responses. I want to learn how to 1rax FE in TvT and be safe against my opponents aggression. Can anyone else post more replays or give advice about how to hold banshees, marine-hellion drops, reapers or any other common 1 base plays. Thanks so much Starshaped for posting a defence of a quick siege push!
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Unless you scout gasless scan their main with your nat oc's first 50 energy if you can't rule out cloaked banshee get an ebay and make a few turrets. Drops are defeated by having marines in position.
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What are the optimal expansionstimings of my 3rd,4th,5th base with mech in TvZ? Which ingame times?
I normally get my 3rd around the 12 min mark but i build it way earlier @ 8:00.When should i fly it to my 3rd?
What is the best amount of hellions in pure mech to deal with all amounts of lings? 16Hellions (2 rows)?
I find it difficult to adjust my hellions number to the rest of my mech because you can produce them so fast that you dont recognize how many hellions you actually have and the real mech units suffer from this.
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And BTW, I still don't agree with this "TvZ is BS, I'm gonna take stupid risks and all-in because I can't possibly beat zerg any other way". I think if more terrans took the time to problem solve and quit bitching, they would find very simple counters to what the zerg is doing (AKA the qxc bunker). No more of this "I'm just gonna wait until the next patch for Blizzard to fix things". FIX THINGS YOURSELF.
QXC bunker is gimmicky and won't ever become 'standard' imo.
In the end there really is nothing new to bring to the table. There's nothing to do about the fact that Zerg can macro up to an extreme level and still be 100% safe. There's nothing to do about the fact that the Zerg lategame army is the most cost-efficient. There's nothing to do about the fact that techswitches can utterly destroy you.
I sincerely believe it has come to a point where the only way to fix the matchup is a patch.
Do I always lose a macro game TvZ? No, perhaps not, but I always feel like I should. I only win when my opponent makes a huge mistake or chooses not to make the optimal unit composition or lets me get a bunch of missiles off on his clumped army etc. There really is no solid way to beat a Zerg, sadly.
On June 25 2012 18:31 Nightmarjoo wrote:http://drop.sc/packs/114113 TvZ reps where I open either 1rax cc or cc first Hellion/Banshee and transition into both mech and bio. My win% is good with this opening against high masters and at least one gm zerg. I don't know how forgg does it, but my opening is very different from what Sculp used in gstl recently. Compared to sculp I make a lot more hellions and banshees. As the numbers grow I can kill queens or force them off the creep front enabling me to kill off tumors. As my hellion force increases I can split them up to exploit any weaknesses my cloaked banshees scout. As the banshees grow they can take on more queens (especially with some hellion support, as a wall to prevent running if nothing else) and whatever isn't completely defended by spores. Cloak enables them to flee from muta if z makes them. Provided my control is adequate I can use the banshees for the rest of the game to scout their composition and army movement and/or to deny/harass expansions. If they're around lategame (e.g. with mech) they can be used in an additional capacity to distract corruptors leaving a broodlord forced undefended. The hellions don't need to kill drones; but likely as the game goes on opportunities to get kills with hellion or banshee increase. For bio play the hellions can replace tanks as ling-killers later in game; and delaying rax production with increased hellion production isn't a disadvantage since if zerg is going heavy queen there's no chance of fast muta. Hellion/Banshee deals with everthing until my unit production is good. Good control gets a lot out of the units the longer the game goes. Even if zerg has perfect defense for an entire game (unlikely if not impossible) they're accomplishing that at opportunity-costs that enable you to secure more income and/or deny their increased income. I'm not sure what's giving every terran so much trouble in tvz now. I have about equal success with mech and bio in exclusively long games. Are you guys just too midgame focused and struggling lategame?
Could you perhaps specify which replays are mech?
I'm inclined to believe what you wrote is largely silly, but I'd love to be proven wrong by your replays. I don't see how mech ever works, though. I go mech almost every TvZ and there are so many points in the game where the Zerg can just collect his free win, lol.
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On June 25 2012 22:27 saaaa wrote:
What are the optimal expansionstimings of my 3rd,4th,5th base with mech in TvZ? Which ingame times?
I normally get my 3rd around the 12 min mark but i build it way earlier @ 8:00.When should i fly it to my 3rd?
What is the best amount of hellions in pure mech to deal with all amounts of lings? 16Hellions (2 rows)?
I find it difficult to adjust my hellions number to the rest of my mech because you can produce them so fast that you dont recognize how many hellions you actually have and the real mech units suffer from this.
It really depends on how the game is going. If you take it too soon you can just die to roach a-move, so you need to just use your own judgement. You can take it fast and make it a PF, but I prefer making it an OC and just defending it.
Generally you want to take your 3rd at the same time as you drop hellions, or something similar, so you have a better chance of getting enough time to set up a good defense.
Edit: Hellions are you mineral-dump, so you'll always be making them. Just be sure to use them often for harass purposes, don't just let the hellion numbers build up and do nothing.
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Hi
here in TL, we have guides taken/shaped based on a pro's play/build order, such as TvP by bomber 1 gas openings, Bomber's TvZ, etc. DRG's builds also but that is zerg, and I am talking about terrans here 
I am currently looking for a TvT meching replay from a pro player, but cannot find any. Does anybody know a good korean meching player whose replays I can download/study? or is there a guide here?
EDIT: OK, I am looking for maybe a 1/1/1 expo? Basically getting fast viking and raven. and maybe a 1/1/1 and FE if possible.
This is what I have learned so far. 15 gas, into expo, then go 1/1/1. and getting raven + viking. does this sound good?
Or there are simply too many ways to go in TvT?
Thanks a lot
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On June 25 2012 22:44 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 22:27 saaaa wrote:
What are the optimal expansionstimings of my 3rd,4th,5th base with mech in TvZ? Which ingame times?
I normally get my 3rd around the 12 min mark but i build it way earlier @ 8:00.When should i fly it to my 3rd?
What is the best amount of hellions in pure mech to deal with all amounts of lings? 16Hellions (2 rows)?
I find it difficult to adjust my hellions number to the rest of my mech because you can produce them so fast that you dont recognize how many hellions you actually have and the real mech units suffer from this.
It really depends on how the game is going. If you take it too soon you can just die to roach a-move, so you need to just use your own judgement. You can take it fast and make it a PF, but I prefer making it an OC and just defending it. Generally you want to take your 3rd at the same time as you drop hellions, or something similar, so you have a better chance of getting enough time to set up a good defense. Edit: Hellions are you mineral-dump, so you'll always be making them. Just be sure to use them often for harass purposes, don't just let the hellion numbers build up and do nothing.
What is the magic hellion count like 8 tanks in TvZ ? 16?
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What the hell am i supposed to do in TvZ ? I just started playing again from a 5 month break and during my placements matches i got matched vs 5 zergs ( the ladder is full of zergs but its ok for blizzard  ). The first 2 were really easy wins but the other 3... omg i got stomped by plat players. They just go blindly for a early hatch with no pool and i can't do anything to stop them so i'm pretty much behind since the beginning ( and we all know what happens when you are behind a zerg --> you'll never catch up ). Then their plan consist to pretty much get infestors and then win ezpz. I'm by no means a pro or anything ( was diamond playing versus masters when I stopped.) but all this "i build only queens" mumbo jumbo seems pretty fucked up to me.
One game I tried to open with 1 rax exp and, when i saw that he went for a early expo, I built 2 bunkers istantly and got them up inside zergs natural. I started pressuring him with a couple of rines in the bunker, I killed his building spine crawler, but he defended it really easily with queens (which blew my mind since i had two mother fuckin bunkers in his natural... whatever ). Then I decided to go for banshees just to open the mech tech path. I KILLED HIS THIRD with two banshees and then he massed banes / lings and killed me. I had 3 bunkers full of marines, around 10 hellions and two tanks. He pretty much a-moved into me --> easy win.
In another game i decided to go for 1 rax expand, this time i couldnt do anything to try to stop his hatch since i scouted him last. Then our friendly zerg player decided to build 6 queens and take a third. OFC the third went up no problem because the creep spread was already over the watch tower ( the map was antiga ). I decided to push just so i could put some pressure and force him to build some units while getting my third up. I sieged at the watchtower and zerg just massed zergling with a couple of infestor then a-moved into me with fungals. My army was composed by a lot of rines, 3 sieged tanks and 4 medivac. My marines were all spread out, had +1 attack, stim and combat shield. HE DESTROYED MY ARMY IN 2 SECS, then he killed me with the remaning lings.
I'm so lost... everything I do seems wrong... during the game i always think that i'm playing good but then they pretty much stomp my army everytime really easily and kill me quickly after. The shitty thing is that the few times that i win a fight i can't pressure him because he build zerglings instantly and most of my units are always in the yellow... it just feels wrong and unfair. What's the point of playing a macro game vs zerg if they get a free hatch every single god damn time.
Suggest me a couple of cheeses because I'm fed up with these zerg players that looks all like Jaedong/DRG/Nestea.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 26 2012 00:53 BlitzerSC wrote:
I'm so lost... everything I do seems wrong... during the game i always think that i'm playing good but then they pretty much stomp my army everytime really easily and kill me quickly after. The shitty thing is that the few times that i win a fight i can't pressure him because he build zerglings instantly and most of my units are always in the yellow... it just feels wrong and unfair. What's the point of playing a macro game vs zerg if they get a free hatch every single god damn time.
The key understanding of TvZ comes from knowing that zerg should win every straight-up engagement in the midgame. TvZ isn't like TvT or TvP where you can trade armies and the player with the better army/better micro comes out on top. Zerg can trade armies anytime and still be able to remax; however, it takes a lot of resources and units and time to do so. Because terran (if left unchecked) has the most cost-efficient units in the game, it's very easy to have an army with multi-pronged aggression and still do damage. Even if the terran army continued trading armies 3-base to 4-base, the zerg would slowly starve (Look at DRG vs MKP in the Spring Championship) and never get to brood tech.
The counter to this balance is the fact that terran has one higher tier than zerg. The strongest composition zerg can make is infestor/corruptor/BL, which pales in comparison to a fully upgraded mech army with ravens or BC. In the late late game, terran has an army edge and infinitely more cost-effective units.
As far as letting the zerg get a free hatch: you can stop the hatch at any point with some kind of all-in pressure. By that same token, terran can get a free CC off of 1 rax every game unless the zerg goes all in.
I understand this matchup is frustrating and difficult to puzzle out, but please don't rely on Blizzard to patch stuff or cry "imbalance". There are a ton of interesting and unique ways to deal with everything that can come at you in SC2, and players are discovering them every day.
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On June 26 2012 00:53 BlitzerSC wrote:What the hell am i supposed to do in TvZ ? I just started playing again from a 5 month break and during my placements matches i got matched vs 5 zergs ( the ladder is full of zergs but its ok for blizzard ). The first 2 were really easy wins but the other 3... omg i got stomped by plat players. They just go blindly for a early hatch with no pool and i can't do anything to stop them so i'm pretty much behind since the beginning ( and we all know what happens when you are behind a zerg --> you'll never catch up ). Then their plan consist to pretty much get infestors and then win ezpz. I'm by no means a pro or anything ( was diamond playing versus masters when I stopped.) but all this "i build only queens" mumbo jumbo seems pretty fucked up to me. One game I tried to open with 1 rax exp and, when i saw that he went for a early expo, I built 2 bunkers istantly and got them up inside zergs natural. I started pressuring him with a couple of rines in the bunker, I killed his building spine crawler, but he defended it really easily with queens (which blew my mind since i had two mother fuckin bunkers in his natural... whatever ). Then I decided to go for banshees just to open the mech tech path. I KILLED HIS THIRD with two banshees and then he massed banes / lings and killed me. I had 3 bunkers full of marines, around 10 hellions and two tanks. He pretty much a-moved into me --> easy win. In another game i decided to go for 1 rax expand, this time i couldnt do anything to try to stop his hatch since i scouted him last. Then our friendly zerg player decided to build 6 queens and take a third. OFC the third went up no problem because the creep spread was already over the watch tower ( the map was antiga ). I decided to push just so i could put some pressure and force him to build some units while getting my third up. I sieged at the watchtower and zerg just massed zergling with a couple of infestor then a-moved into me with fungals. My army was composed by a lot of rines, 3 sieged tanks and 4 medivac. My marines were all spread out, had +1 attack, stim and combat shield. HE DESTROYED MY ARMY IN 2 SECS, then he killed me with the remaning lings. I'm so lost... everything I do seems wrong... during the game i always think that i'm playing good but then they pretty much stomp my army everytime really easily and kill me quickly after. The shitty thing is that the few times that i win a fight i can't pressure him because he build zerglings instantly and most of my units are always in the yellow... it just feels wrong and unfair. What's the point of playing a macro game vs zerg if they get a free hatch every single god damn time. Suggest me a couple of cheeses because I'm fed up with these zerg players that looks all like Jaedong/DRG/Nestea.
Can you please post the replays of the matches? I am really curious.
With this much whining i think you are likely to be not even near diamond, IMO.
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On June 26 2012 01:14 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Can you please post the replays of the matches? I am really curious.
With this much whining i think you are likely to be not even near diamond, IMO.
Yeah, I second this. I'm really curious on the replays...also because you're more equipped to be biased on the "Well he just won. I didn't even get a chance" argument. I think it'd be good to have a neutral party look at it 
Different viewpoints are good when learning.
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Been thinking a lot about TvZ lately and up until yesterday, it was my strongest matchup. Now I'm starting to see what all the imba QQ is about. Sure, queens are beefed up and Zergs can drone, bust, AND expand at the same time but MAYBE Terran needs to find something else.
Has anyone better than my skill level (plat) ever tried opening with ForGG style, but adding a raven or 2 (obv delaying a third) to help with queens + spores? Just a thought.
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The amount of effort I have to expend to kill a Zerg is extreme... I have to drop multiple bases, kill tech structures, control creep (which is out of control now after the queen patch) and hope that I'm hitting them hard enough and often enough to win. With them though, all it takes is one solid engagement and my army will take too long to rebuild and it's GG.
I think that Terran's midgame is really compromised, and I'd love to see a patch to address it in a small way. Late game it can go either way, but if you don't have the right composition you can still lose.
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On June 26 2012 02:25 XenoJesus wrote:
Been thinking a lot about TvZ lately and up until yesterday, it was my strongest matchup. Now I'm starting to see what all the imba QQ is about. Sure, queens are beefed up and Zergs can drone, bust, AND expand at the same time but MAYBE Terran needs to find something else.
Has anyone better than my skill level (plat) ever tried opening with ForGG style, but adding a raven or 2 (obv delaying a third) to help with queens + spores? Just a thought.
what's this "ForGG style"
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On June 26 2012 03:40 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:25 XenoJesus wrote:
Been thinking a lot about TvZ lately and up until yesterday, it was my strongest matchup. Now I'm starting to see what all the imba QQ is about. Sure, queens are beefed up and Zergs can drone, bust, AND expand at the same time but MAYBE Terran needs to find something else.
Has anyone better than my skill level (plat) ever tried opening with ForGG style, but adding a raven or 2 (obv delaying a third) to help with queens + spores? Just a thought. what's this "ForGG style"
It's a 1 rax FE into reactor hellion 1/1/1, poke around with 4ish hellions and a banshee to deny creep, potentially delay 3rd.
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EPT
