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Hello fellow Tler's!
I thought I'd share this build with you that I've been using at the Masters level to get like a 90%+ win rate vs Protoss. I was like the common Terran before, using MMM + vikings + ghosts to deal with the Protoss deathball and constantly loosing. Therefore I went into my lab and concocted this mad scheme to use Mech vs Protoss. Most Terrans scoff at the idea, but hold your judgement! I have a 90%+ win rate vs Protoss or a reason
Shout Outs
+ Show Spoiler +
Thorzain - Because the build is basically based off of his TvP style in game 5 vs MC in the TSL
MarineKush - For giving me the idea to EMP my own mech units
Zatic - For the opening
Warden - For well... having an awesome stream!
General Idea of the build - Basically create a Mech + ghost army to destroy anything Protoss throws at you. You're army will consist of THORS + Hellions, no matter what composition your opponent goes, you will always use Thors + Hellions because they work so well together economy wise and in combat. Then depending on what your opponent goes, you have a mix of vikings and ghosts and ravens
Build Order Opening
+ Show Spoiler +supply @ 10
rax @ 12 - build 1 marine and reactor immediately after
gas @ 13
orbital @ 15
2nd rax @ as soon as you have 150. delay your second supply deopt. tech lab as soon as its finished then concussive shell
CC @ 400 min (you can cut a few marines, maruders)
Factory @ right after CC
2nd gas @ right after factory
3rd, 4th gases @ right when you have your expo up
Armory @ right after factory completes
Starport @ right after armory gets started (can go faster starport if you're expecting DT's, but I prefer Ebay instead)
Then basically pump marines + maurders. If you want to pressure, I like to do it when I have 1-2 maurders. Pushing out requires your own judgement depending on what you're scout sees. I like to hide my scouting SCV at his natural to check for expo. If I see 1 gate expo I will almost always bring like 4 scvs and punish it. Regardless 2-3 bunkers should always be thrown down at your natural in-case he decides to go 4 gate, 3 gate expo pressure
Midgame Transition
+ Show Spoiler +So as soon as your armory is done, you should start a Thor. Sometimes I like to build a siege tank before the Thor to feel more safe, but its up to you. You should basically cut marine + maurder production when you start the armory, 3 bunkers should be enough to hold any pressure.
When your Thor is started and you have enough money, lift your barracks and put 2 factory's, 1 on the tech lab and 1 on the reactor. Get a raven off the starport and start making thors and hellions
This is where scans and scouting come into play. Scan his base and see what he is getting:
He's going Colossus: Start a reactor on one of the rax, swap with starport and start viking production. Do not overdo viking production 8-10 is more than enough. Delay ghost production
He's going HT: Start ghost academy. Build another rax on the starport tech lab. Put 2 tech labs on your current rax's (should have 3 raxs with tech labs). Production from starport should be stopped
He's going mass immortal(oh noes!): Actually it isn't that scary. Do the same as above, 3 tech lab rax, and EMP him into oblivion. Immortals aren't that good without their hardened shields.
Hes going stargate: Same as Colossus, reactor on starport 8-10 vikings. If he is going mass startgates you might need more. Don't worry too much about void rays, they tend to stack and a few thor shots give your vikings a HUGE advantage in the air battle
You will find you float quite a few minerals with this build. I usually start my 3rd around the 11min mark. My 4th is usually around the 15th min mark. 2 more factory's should be thrown down for each expo... just a rule of thumb I use
Blue flame should be gotten pretty quickly and vehicle armor upgrades when you can spare the monehs
Late game
+ Show Spoiler +To be honest, I don't have much experience in late late game because my push usually just crushes them. I am going to assume you can start CC'ing everywhere, and start sacing scv's. If he goes Carriers make vikings. I hope to update this section when I have my late game experience, but truth is I don't right now
The push
+ Show Spoiler +I usually push when I am close to maxed. You should have a ton of hellions, around 6 ghosts and probably like 8+ thors a raven(or 2) and some vikings if you need them. Just basically a attack and EMP him back to hell. Profit
You'll probably see some strange compositions used vs you. For example I see Colossus + HT sometimes because he'll be going down the Colossus path, see me going Thor's and start making a few HT's. Or he'll throw down a Stargate. I really can't comment on what you should do, it will take game experience. Use my counters as a guideline and just try to make a balanced composition to counter his
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
Final Words: Hope you guys enjoy this and it helps with your TvP frustrations. I ask if you use this build, that it henceforth from here on out be known as The Dolan Build. Not cuz i really want credit, I just think its a hilarious name! Have fun
Please note, I don't consider myself a great player or anything. I am am a Masters level Terran vs Masters level Protoss. If this doesn't work at higher levels like GM, GSL, then I'm sorry. Kind of hard to test at that level
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Can't wait to try this out!!
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I feel like I've seen this same bo somewhere else with it's own thread recently... :/
It seems like it's missing a few things too.
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On July 24 2011 02:01 noobinator wrote:
I feel like I've seen this same bo somewhere else with it's own thread recently... :/
It seems like it's missing a few things too.
Where @? If you're talking about MarineKush's build then yes it is kind of similar but also different. I gave him credit in the shoutouts. Note check the dates on the replays, I've been using this build for the past month or so now.
And whats it missing? I can add some things if needed
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What do you do if the toss sends over a zealot + chrono'd stalker when he sees the reactor go down? The early reactor seems very unsafe.
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On July 24 2011 02:04 yankjenets wrote:
What do you do if the toss sends over a zealot + chrono'd stalker when he sees the reactor go down? The early reactor seems very unsafe.
Its very safe. If its close positions, I actually don't often use this build(prefer bombers all-in close positions)... but just throw down a bunker, delay your 2nd supply depot. Problem solved
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Why is it called Uncle Dolan's build?
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How you fair against mass blink stalker? Keep making marauders i suppose?
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I still think HT's are realy good against this unit comp, if you dont EMP the thors they will just get feedbacked, so baisicly you need a shitload of ghosts to EMP everything and if he spreads its just so much harder + you the more ghosts you build the less thors you have
not to speak that on large maps, he could just just blink stalkers to keeps you in your base and outexpand you, like every mech style...
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On July 24 2011 02:41 cilinder007 wrote:
I still think HT's are realy good against this unit comp, if you dont EMP the thors they will just get feedbacked, so baisicly you need a shitload of ghosts to EMP everything and if he spreads its just so much harder + you the more ghosts you build the less thors you have
not to speak that on large maps, he could just just blink stalkers to keeps you in your base and outexpand you, like every mech style...
Check last replay.
You should show us some replays of you losing with this. I think the biggest thing would be getting out expanded.
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On July 24 2011 02:41 cilinder007 wrote:
I still think HT's are realy good against this unit comp, if you dont EMP the thors they will just get feedbacked, so baisicly you need a shitload of ghosts to EMP everything and if he spreads its just so much harder + you the more ghosts you build the less thors you have
not to speak that on large maps, he could just just blink stalkers to keeps you in your base and outexpand you, like every mech style...
Well you do EMP the Thors thats the thing, and the blueflame tears apart the HT's. But yes, I have lost to a mass blink stalker build. Basically got into a basetrade situation and lost
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It sounds like a chain of fast food restaurants, but I'll check this out :D
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i play mech vs protoss but i prefer the goody opening into the goody push and work from here with better mechanics than goody but a bit less strategical thinking.
the opening is: normal 1 gas factory, throw down expo after factory 1 hellion then tanks, reactor marine to be safe, add factories and switch it on the reactor, engy bay right for the dt timing, and keeping obs away. push around 100 food with a huge tank ball with hellions and marines, then work from here.
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On July 24 2011 03:50 MrRicewife wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:41 cilinder007 wrote:
I still think HT's are realy good against this unit comp, if you dont EMP the thors they will just get feedbacked, so baisicly you need a shitload of ghosts to EMP everything and if he spreads its just so much harder + you the more ghosts you build the less thors you have
not to speak that on large maps, he could just just blink stalkers to keeps you in your base and outexpand you, like every mech style... Check last replay. You should show us some replays of you losing with this. I think the biggest thing would be getting out expanded.
Pretty much epic fail in that last battle on my part. That was before I knew to EMP my Thors.. also terrible scouting so I didn't have enough ghosts.. somehow I still won
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Wow, this build looks awesome, very nice gameplay bro. I will try with this opening. TvP is by far my worst MU.
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I've always been going mech, so thank you, for sharing replays as a Masters level player winning 90% or so %.
I used to do Thorzain's build, but i found his push hard to do at the same timing after the Thor nerf because I would have trouble strike cannoning his immortals (not enough MP on all the Thors), and so I tried to get Ghosts in time for the same push, but then I found it was pretty hard to balance your army with all that gas, and having problems adapting with the Thor nerf, so thank you for sharing replays ^_^
Now I've just been doing a 1 reactor hellion expand into mass hellions and transitioning into tanks and then thors xD, but I hope I can get back to the Thorzain Thor/Hellion style xD
Also, yeah EMPing your Thors is amazingly fun. Many times my opponents still Feedback, but usually only does like 50 dmg to a Thor, when a Storm would be much better xD.
Edit:
You say that against Immortals, you should add a third Rax. I really don't think this is necessary, even for your push you say 8 thors and 6 ghosts... can't you just make that 2 ghosts? Really you don't need that many EMPs. I mean, you're not going to be pumping 3 ghosts the rest of the game are you? Or are you?
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On July 24 2011 08:24 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I've always been going mech, so thank you, for sharing replays as a Masters level player winning 90% or so %.
I used to do Thorzain's build, but i found his push hard to do at the same timing after the Thor nerf because I would have trouble strike cannoning his immortals (not enough MP on all the Thors), and so I tried to get Ghosts in time for the same push, but then I found it was pretty hard to balance your army with all that gas, and having problems adapting with the Thor nerf, so thank you for sharing replays ^_^
Now I've just been doing a 1 reactor hellion expand into mass hellions and transitioning into tanks and then thors xD, but I hope I can get back to the Thorzain Thor/Hellion style xD
Also, yeah EMPing your Thors is amazingly fun. Many times my opponents still Feedback, but usually only does like 50 dmg to a Thor, when a Storm would be much better xD.
Edit:
You say that against Immortals, you should add a third Rax. I really don't think this is necessary, even for your push you say 8 thors and 6 ghosts... can't you just make that 2 ghosts? Really you don't need that many EMPs. I mean, you're not going to be pumping 3 ghosts the rest of the game are you? Or are you?
I actually do. I think they are a good unit, especially if the opponent has a nice concave you need more than 2 emps.. also emp only drains 100 shields, some units like colossus have more shields. Also if you miss an EMP or your ghosts get feedbacked, killed you always have spare EMP's. Also you can EMP the warp in units too
Maybe its a little overkill but I find like 6-8 ghosts optimal. Its hilarious if he goes archons cuz they all end up with 10 hp 
Yeah ghosts can be kind of gas heavy, but the patch helps a lot. Also you will be getting your 3rd pretty quickly so after that you should be fine
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So how do you approach the immobility of mech when Protoss can repeatedly expand and if you match his rate of expansion, you're forced into a mobility fight that mech has difficulty competing in?
I apologize if this was already answered and I missed it.
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If your opponent is going for collosus, do you make 1-2 medivacs to drop your hellions and do terrible terrible damage? this build looks very nice.
Also, what do you do if you scout him going double forge mass gateway units(which in my mind is the ultimate counter to mech)?
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On July 24 2011 08:31 mols0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 08:24 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I've always been going mech, so thank you, for sharing replays as a Masters level player winning 90% or so %.
I used to do Thorzain's build, but i found his push hard to do at the same timing after the Thor nerf because I would have trouble strike cannoning his immortals (not enough MP on all the Thors), and so I tried to get Ghosts in time for the same push, but then I found it was pretty hard to balance your army with all that gas, and having problems adapting with the Thor nerf, so thank you for sharing replays ^_^
Now I've just been doing a 1 reactor hellion expand into mass hellions and transitioning into tanks and then thors xD, but I hope I can get back to the Thorzain Thor/Hellion style xD
Also, yeah EMPing your Thors is amazingly fun. Many times my opponents still Feedback, but usually only does like 50 dmg to a Thor, when a Storm would be much better xD.
Edit:
You say that against Immortals, you should add a third Rax. I really don't think this is necessary, even for your push you say 8 thors and 6 ghosts... can't you just make that 2 ghosts? Really you don't need that many EMPs. I mean, you're not going to be pumping 3 ghosts the rest of the game are you? Or are you? I actually do. I think they are a good unit, especially if the opponent has a nice concave you need more than 2 emps.. also emp only drains 100 shields, some units like colossus have more shields. Also if you miss an EMP or your ghosts get feedbacked, killed you always have spare EMP's. Also you can EMP the warp in units too Maybe its a little overkill but I find like 6-8 ghosts optimal. Its hilarious if he goes archons cuz they all end up with 10 hp Yeah ghosts can be kind of gas heavy, but the patch helps a lot. Also you will be getting your 3rd pretty quickly so after that you should be fine
Oh yeah I forgot. My opponents probably aren't good enough yet to micro well enough to spread out xD
But I mean, at that point, at the time of the 14 minute ish push (thorzain's at least) if they rushed for HT, then all you need to do is EMP your thors before battle, and if he went colossi instead you should have vikings to deal with them and the only thing left is the immortals, which die really fast to thors after you EMP them. But again I guess if they split/spread their Immortals you need more EMPs.
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On July 24 2011 08:48 Bippzy wrote:
If your opponent is going for collosus, do you make 1-2 medivacs to drop your hellions and do terrible terrible damage? this build looks very nice.
Also, what do you do if you scout him going double forge mass gateway units(which in my mind is the ultimate counter to mech)?
No but that might not be a bad idea. As for mass gateway check the game on Tal'darim, I believe he goes mass gateway
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Looks good, even though I don't mind going mass bio TvP anyway. Are there any real reasons to switch over to mech play other than just because you want to keep your gameplay varied, if you're not struggling with TvP?
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On July 24 2011 09:37 Raimu wrote:
Looks good, even though I don't mind going mass bio TvP anyway. Are there any real reasons to switch over to mech play other than just because you want to keep your gameplay varied, if you're not struggling with TvP?
Nope, why change something if it works? I mean learning a new build that works always has its benefits, especially in games where it isn't bo1. I know how to play bio has well but I find this more robust, but obviously in lets say a bo5 I am not going to use this build 5 times in a row.
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Love the return of thor based build, will give try!
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On July 24 2011 01:50 mols0n wrote:
I thought I'd share this build with you that I've been using at the Masters level to get like a 90%+ win rate vs Protoss. [...] I have a 90%+ win rate vs Protoss or a reason
Is this a hard statistic? One taken by tabulating all your ladder games vs Protoss and actually taking all wins divided by all games played?
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Yes, how do you deal with immobility? Say opponent goes blink stalker heavy and harasses all your bases?
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Hi
I have watched all replays and can't wait to test it out on my own =) I have a few specfic questions in my mind. many thx.
1) Comparing to warden 111 terran death ball build, this build has a lot of thors instead of tanks. Wondering what is the reason behind choosing thors over tanks in this build?
2) I observe that the starport is a bit later than a normal 111 build. How should we defend against a 3gate+ starport build without vikings comnig out soon? I have seen players struggling with this.
3) It seems that after the initial engagement, most of the hellions would be dead with thors being your main army. How should we handle If they wrap in mass chargelots? I lost a few times on this when i go for mass thors/tanks + hellions. They're just not really good against mass zealots without the hellions.
Cheers! Another great build on TVP =)
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To be honest the replays look more like you out macroing your opponent, none of the replays have your opponent going mass chargelot archon + storms with some stalkers mixed in with mass upgrades. If they had of they would have either had 5 bases by the time you pushed out or killed you in the early game. That's not to say the push isn't strong, but colossi in large enough numbers (8+ crush a thor heavy composition if they focus fire properly) however terrans have been making vikings to counter colossi for a long time now. You would really be better off going largely gateway heavy with an immortal or two, going air is horrible because anyone who has done a 4v4 or mono battle knows that air units get rolled by thors the second they clump up, and to mix in colossi and air means they will also have vikings, so overall not a very smart idea. You want to abuse the fact that thors are large, have huge surface area, attack very slowly and will eat into your unit count just as colossi eat into gateway unit count. In fact they act the same way in this style, the thors deal the damage the helions are there to distract you and be meat shields.
So after watching all the replays there was only 1 battle that wasn't in a choke and horribly favoured you (4 of the replays you were up by 30 or more food in army value) and trying to force your units through a choke is retarded especially when some of them were gateway heavy. The one battle between you and MoNs was close, but he has 34 BLINK stalkers and 20 chargelots. not once does he use blink and the zealots aren't even attacking till most of his units are dead because they are stuck behind his stalkers, when there is finally a hole they go 1 by 1 into battle to their deaths, he also doesn't have a 3rd, he only has 6 gateways and doesn't reinforce during the battle despite his 0 micro and his base being right behind your units allowing for a flank. According to the replay the protoss apparently doesn't have any hot keys for his army either... Even so the battle is fairly close (he probably would have won or left you with 1 thor if the chargelots weren't stuck behind his non microed blink stalkers) and considering its like watching a gm player fight diamond levels in these replays i hardly think these showcase the true strength of the strategy. Showing replays where your army is 30 food larger and your on more bases then your opponent and sometimes your upgrades are even better hardly shows the strat at its fullest.
Overall i am glad to see thors being used again, but i haven't seen any evidence to point to its legitimacy in a game where the opponent isn't behind and doesn't fail to micro even once in the battle while half his units are trapped out of range.
Edit
The reason archons and ht's storms are good is because the splash and storms eat through the supporting units for the thors, and if he tries to kite back the thors wont be dpsing or will be left to eat storms and then be exposed in the front. If he doesn't emp the thors you can also feedback them. once the helions are dead you should be able to swarm him down with your 16+ gateways of zealots and stalkers with 1 or 2 more warp ins if necessary.
Edit2
I just recreated the battle between you and mons in a unit tester, same unit count, same upgrades and mons came out ahead (i didnt blink micro just let the zealots lead) at the end of the battle he would have had 10 stalkers on average ( tried it 3 times), i also had a few stalkers in the back not shooting at the start cuz the map was a little tight. Even giving terran the benefit of the doubt with stim, at worst its basically an even trade, except his is gateway units and your is factory units with a long build time. Again that was with 0 micro, with even some blink micro the battle would have been even more in the protoss's favour.
Not bashing the OP just proving that the opponents in the replays were bad when it came to reacting and engaging. Also the obvious counter to this is indeed a gateway heavy army (i personally would have opted for more archons and some storms / feedback instead of all these stalkers) so for any protoss wondering how you counter this, mass up zealots and stalkers etc and a move for a win (don't forget to reinforce and use blink if you teched into it lol)
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This build seems scary. A core army of hellion / thor / ghost is very powerful against protoss. It basically collectively crushes zealots, sentries, and stalkers. Phoenixes are awful against thors. I can see void rays having some utility if they spread and focus thors but only as part of a push to try to break terran because vikings crush void rays. Immortals are key but they are renedered useless by EMP. Toss needs HT (and has to control them very well and prevent EMPs). Colossus support is always very helpful but I'm not sure they're always practical given the necessity and high gas cost of HT/immo.
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On July 24 2011 19:22 Sightbain wrote:
To be honest the replays look more like you out macroing your opponent, none of the replays have your opponent going mass chargelot archon + storms with some stalkers mixed in with mass upgrades. If they had of they would have either had 5 bases by the time you pushed out or killed you in the early game. That's not to say the push isn't strong, but colossi in large enough numbers (8+ crush a thor heavy composition if they focus fire properly) however terrans have been making vikings to counter colossi for a long time now. You would really be better off going largely gateway heavy with an immortal or two, going air is horrible because anyone who has done a 4v4 or mono battle knows that air units get rolled by thors the second they clump up, and to mix in colossi and air means they will also have vikings, so overall not a very smart idea. You want to abuse the fact that thors are large, have huge surface area, attack very slowly and will eat into your unit count just as colossi eat into gateway unit count. In fact they act the same way in this style, the thors deal the damage the helions are there to distract you and be meat shields.
So after watching all the replays there was only 1 battle that wasn't in a choke and horribly favoured you (4 of the replays you were up by 30 or more food in army value) and trying to force your units through a choke is retarded especially when some of them were gateway heavy. The one battle between you and MoNs was close, but he has 34 BLINK stalkers and 20 chargelots. not once does he use blink and the zealots aren't even attacking till most of his units are dead because they are stuck behind his stalkers, when there is finally a hole they go 1 by 1 into battle to their deaths, he also doesn't have a 3rd, he only has 6 gateways and doesn't reinforce during the battle despite his 0 micro and his base being right behind your units allowing for a flank. According to the replay the protoss apparently doesn't have any hot keys for his army either... Even so the battle is fairly close (he probably would have won or left you with 1 thor if the chargelots weren't stuck behind his non microed blink stalkers) and considering its like watching a gm player fight diamond levels in these replays i hardly think these showcase the true strength of the strategy. Showing replays where your army is 30 food larger and your on more bases then your opponent and sometimes your upgrades are even better hardly shows the strat at its fullest.
Overall i am glad to see thors being used again, but i haven't seen any evidence to point to its legitimacy in a game where the opponent isn't behind and doesn't fail to micro even once in the battle while half his units are trapped out of range.
Edit
The reason archons and ht's storms are good is because the splash and storms eat through the supporting units for the thors, and if he tries to kite back the thors wont be dpsing or will be left to eat storms and then be exposed in the front. If he doesn't emp the thors you can also feedback them. once the helions are dead you should be able to swarm him down with your 16+ gateways of zealots and stalkers with 1 or 2 more warp ins if necessary.
Edit2
I just recreated the battle between you and mons in a unit tester, same unit count, same upgrades and mons came out ahead (i didnt blink micro just let the zealots lead) at the end of the battle he would have had 10 stalkers on average ( tried it 3 times), i also had a few stalkers in the back not shooting at the start cuz the map was a little tight. Even giving terran the benefit of the doubt with stim, at worst its basically an even trade, except his is gateway units and your is factory units with a long build time. Again that was with 0 micro, with even some blink micro the battle would have been even more in the protoss's favour.
Not bashing the OP just proving that the opponents in the replays were bad when it came to reacting and engaging. Also the obvious counter to this is indeed a gateway heavy army (i personally would have opted for more archons and some storms / feedback instead of all these stalkers) so for any protoss wondering how you counter this, mass up zealots and stalkers etc and a move for a win (don't forget to reinforce and use blink if you teched into it lol)
You're right, in the game vs mons that was very close, but I didn't have enough ghosts, like 4-5 EMPs would have eaten that army.
High templar, Archon might be viable, but I've been able to deal with it with like 6-8 ghosts. just EMP the ht's and Archons( especially the archons and they have like 10 hp). Also you need to be very good at EMPing your own thors. If he has massing up HT's you kite the hellions back (keep them behind your thors so they can actually move back), also blue flame rips thru HT's
Also I stated in the OP that this was vs Masters level players, so if they're bad nothing I can do. I am hoping some better Terran player can test it in GM or even higher and see if it works there!
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I've played around with this composition for the last day since reading this thread. I can only say that I have utterly facerolled every protoss I've played since trying it. Marines in bunkers defend me well enough until I have a few thor out, and with mass repair I'm safe from most aggression. From there it's really easy to keep building thor, take a third, and then tailor my composition around his while keeping thors with constant armor upgrades as the core of my army. In every game I used a lot of scans (the high gas cost of the units means that you'll be much more tight on gas than minerals and can afford to use the scans instead of MULEs) and built whatever I needed to demolish his army. The only thing that came relatively close to winning was mass collosi, but having made a ton of vikings I came out on top. It's relatively easy to turtle on 3 base on most maps until you have a maxed army. And while sure, your opponent can mass gateways and remax quickly, with enough ghosts and good EMP you hardly lose anything to an all-gateway army. The games where my opponent counterattacked with a few zealots actually didn't matter too much, because by the time that anything gets to mineral lines it means I'm not turtling and I'm at 200/200 with some money banked. Losing SCVs helped because I could turn the supply into more thor. And Thors destroy bases way faster than gateway units, and you can always lift in a base trade situation and be happy that your maxed army is so ridiculously strong that you'll hardly lose anything.
tl;dr:
Thor/Ghost is great for wrecking Protoss. Use scans to tailor your composition to theirs. Win soundly.
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this build looks scary :S
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I wish they didnt give thors energy back or this would be ridiclousy good. I tried the build today and it seems like alot of Protosses dont know how to handle this, the problem is though, is that when the Toss does know how to handle the build either blink stalk/collsi or HT/Immortal mech builds like this get trashed.
I think its a cool build that is definately worthy of a bo3/bo5 to throw your oppenant off. I wish this type of play could become standard as its a ton of fun actully being able to have an army that can go head to head with a toss deathball. But now that they switched energy back its going to hurt alot. Yes you can emp your own thors( I dont know why it took so long for people to realize this) but without strike cannon immortals w good gateway support are going to shit all over this. Also blink/collsi will ruin you because youll never leave your base without an entire army magically walking in and then walking out.
One thing that I did add to this build when I tried it was doing BFH hellion drops to keep him in check while I built up my 2 base push. Also +2 armor upgrades are really good with this composition, definately makes a world of differance in your push.
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Marinekushes build is good because it deals with the possibily of dts with the raven which also helps with pdd when you push. I've only lost like 2 TvPs since I started using it. I might use the opening instead because 2 marauders might be better against 4 gates but idk. Thors just don't die. There is always at least 2 alive after the first engagement and if you have plus 2 armor you can rape the zealot spam that usually follows. This is the 3rd TvP mech build recently. I have had alot more success with marinekushes vs wardens as tanks are so much worse that thors and chargelots + blink stalkers rape tanks.
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On July 26 2011 11:06 benthekid wrote:
Marinekushes build is good because it deals with the possibily of dts with the raven which also helps with pdd when you push. I've only lost like 2 TvPs since I started using it. I might use the opening instead because 2 marauders might be better against 4 gates but idk. Thors just don't die. There is always at least 2 alive after the first engagement and if you have plus 2 armor you can rape the zealot spam that usually follows. This is the 3rd TvP mech build recently. I have had alot more success with marinekushes vs wardens as tanks are so much worse that thors and chargelots + blink stalkers rape tanks.
Yeah DT's are a problem. You need rely on scouting a lot because the raven is kind of delayed in this build. Try keeping your scv alive, send it up his ramp @ like 5 min when you check for an expo and check his sentry count/unit count. If its low, its either void rays or DT's
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Hey played this build all day today as Med-High Masters. I absolutely love this build. Out of the 10-15 TvPs I played today and won every single one of them. There was never a point where I felt weak or susceptible to any damage at any time. HTs werent a problem at all as long as my hellions had decent positioning. Never faced any DTs so cant comment on that but I really dont see how this build could be stopped (maybe mass immortal but good EMPs will clean them up). Anyway thanks for this build!
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I tried the build and won pretty straightforward whereas I hadn't won a TvP in something like 6 games.
I have a question though: why choosing the vehicle armor upgrade over the attack upgrade?
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On July 28 2011 05:29 Carlotto wrote:
I tried the build and won pretty straightforward whereas I hadn't won a TvP in something like 6 games.
I have a question though: why choosing the vehicle armor upgrade over the attack upgrade?
+ Show Spoiler +Thorzain wrote:
"It's mostly to be able to fight heavy gateway units compositions, as they deal relatively low damage but shoot fast (zealots have 2 attacks for example). This lets me worry more about the actual "power units" so to say, the units that aren't gateway units. And as long as i can counter them properly (colossus/air = vikings, mass immortals = more Thor heavy) I feel comfortable in the big fight.
Another important factor to point out is that I tried in the unit test map, and attack upgrades doesn't change how many hits a Thor kills either a stalker or a zealot, nor how many hits a Hellion needs to kill a zealot. So even though it will affect somewhat, since I didn't test all the various X Thor hits X hellion hits on unit X with and without attack upgrades, it's fairly useless. Armor however, lets Hellions take 1 more zealot and stalker hits, and lets Thors take many more zealot/stalker hits."
by the man himself!
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yeah thors basically still 2-3 shot whatever unit they're fighting regardless of their weapon upgrades
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Wow, this build looks awesome. Will try!
Also, I'm wondering -- do you have any similar mechanical builds that integrate BC's? I'd really like to use more BC's in my Terran play!
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On July 29 2011 11:00 kusu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 05:29 Carlotto wrote:
I tried the build and won pretty straightforward whereas I hadn't won a TvP in something like 6 games.
I have a question though: why choosing the vehicle armor upgrade over the attack upgrade? + Show Spoiler +Thorzain wrote:
"It's mostly to be able to fight heavy gateway units compositions, as they deal relatively low damage but shoot fast (zealots have 2 attacks for example). This lets me worry more about the actual "power units" so to say, the units that aren't gateway units. And as long as i can counter them properly (colossus/air = vikings, mass immortals = more Thor heavy) I feel comfortable in the big fight.
Another important factor to point out is that I tried in the unit test map, and attack upgrades doesn't change how many hits a Thor kills either a stalker or a zealot, nor how many hits a Hellion needs to kill a zealot. So even though it will affect somewhat, since I didn't test all the various X Thor hits X hellion hits on unit X with and without attack upgrades, it's fairly useless. Armor however, lets Hellions take 1 more zealot and stalker hits, and lets Thors take many more zealot/stalker hits."
by the man himself!
Yep that's pretty much it lol, for example a Thor will always (i think always?) need to 3 shot a stalker or zealot, it won't be able to 2 shot one of them unless it's a +3 attack Thor vs an unupgraded Zealot, lol. And that's not very realistic.
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Perfect! i have been doing mech for only like 2 weeks in every match up, while i could find a TvZ mech build to coppy, I was in the dark in TvP and just open banchie or BW tank exspo.
Thanks
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On July 29 2011 12:18 Tactical_Tim wrote:
Wow, this build looks awesome. Will try!
Also, I'm wondering -- do you have any similar mechanical builds that integrate BC's? I'd really like to use more BC's in my Terran play!
Wouldn't we all? Unfortunately they aren't viable against toss, blink stalkers/void rays are just too good. Still good against terran though, but that's another thread. They may have a place in a super Terran deathball, but it's simply not gonna happen in a real game.
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Interesting build, just hope blizzard wont give Thors another nerf because of this XD
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Russian Federation473 Posts
why do you need 3 barracks to produce ghosts?
2 thors constantly producing will eat almostly all the gas income from 2 bases, and to constantly produce ghosts from 3 rax you need all the gas income from 4 geysers...
vikings are also very gas-heavy, one starport with reactor = over 200 gas spent over minute.
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On July 29 2011 11:00 kusu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 05:29 Carlotto wrote:
I tried the build and won pretty straightforward whereas I hadn't won a TvP in something like 6 games.
I have a question though: why choosing the vehicle armor upgrade over the attack upgrade? + Show Spoiler +Thorzain wrote:
"It's mostly to be able to fight heavy gateway units compositions, as they deal relatively low damage but shoot fast (zealots have 2 attacks for example). This lets me worry more about the actual "power units" so to say, the units that aren't gateway units. And as long as i can counter them properly (colossus/air = vikings, mass immortals = more Thor heavy) I feel comfortable in the big fight.
Another important factor to point out is that I tried in the unit test map, and attack upgrades doesn't change how many hits a Thor kills either a stalker or a zealot, nor how many hits a Hellion needs to kill a zealot. So even though it will affect somewhat, since I didn't test all the various X Thor hits X hellion hits on unit X with and without attack upgrades, it's fairly useless. Armor however, lets Hellions take 1 more zealot and stalker hits, and lets Thors take many more zealot/stalker hits."
by the man himself!
OK thanks a lot! (And to the other answers.)
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On July 29 2011 16:06 Ganseng wrote:
why do you need 3 barracks to produce ghosts?
2 thors constantly producing will eat almostly all the gas income from 2 bases, and to constantly produce ghosts from 3 rax you need all the gas income from 4 geysers...
vikings are also very gas-heavy, one starport with reactor = over 200 gas spent over minute.
You only get 3 rax if he is going some type of HT tech, or heavy heavy immortals. You can therefore cut viking production. Also you will find you have spare minerals with this build and you will be expanding fairly quickly.. prolly @11min then you'll have no problems with production
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What are you going to do if the person goes Double Forge Citadel + High Templars and Collosus and actually knows how to micro.
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On July 30 2011 02:35 kineSiS- wrote:
What are you going to do if the person goes Double Forge Citadel + High Templars and Collosus and actually knows how to micro.
Seems like he gets every tech choice there is, maybe push a little earlier and punish him for that?
Also you should probably get doulbe ups.
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What about using marines instead of hellions for your mineral sink?
Lets consider the pros and cons of using marines in your build instead of hellions:
Pros:
-Infrastructure costs less gas (100 vs 150gas)
-More hp per mineral
-can shoot air units
-can kill buildings much quicker
-dps MUCH better against basically everything except grouped up zealots and hts (unusual due to charge spreading them out)
-scale better with upgrades then hellions, would also allow for ghosts to receive upgrades
-can be healed with medivacs, can snipe tech and nexus on drops
-smaller size allows for more units to fire at once.
Cons
-infrastructure more mineral expensive (400v200)
-lose out on vehicle armour upgrades
-more vulnerable to splash damage due to small size
-less mobile
-less effective for mineral line harassment esp without medivacs
Conclusion:
So basically the crux of the argument becomes, is the increased damage of marines against anything not light worth the extra splash damage they take? I would hyposize that the answer depends on how well you can micro your marines.
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On August 03 2011 00:27 statikg wrote:
What about using marines instead of hellions for your mineral sink?
Lets consider the pros and cons of using marines in your build instead of hellions:
Pros:
-Infrastructure costs less gas (100 vs 150gas)
If you're building hellions, what you can do is have three techlabbed factories and alternate between rounds of 3 thors and 3 hellions, since ghosts and upgrades are fairly gas-hungry, the resources work out fairly well.
-More hp per mineral
This is only true if you get combat shield, which costs 100 gas. On top of that, if you want them to actually be more effective meatshields you need armor upgrades, which take more gas and a Ebay.
-can shoot air units
The only air units from protoss I'd be worried about are carriers. Voids and Pheonix would be laughable against mass thor. I haven't seen carriers yet, so I don't know how good marines are against them.
-can kill buildings much quicker
Hopefully, your composition will be so much stronger that it will roll your opponent's army and you won't need to go building stomping. Even then, the marines will typically be in the front of each push and so your army after the battle will basically be only Thor since everything else died, and Thor are just fine at destroying buildings.
-dps MUCH better against basically everything except grouped up zealots and hts (unusual due to charge spreading them out)
True, but thor already do a ton of damage, I mostly use the hellions to soak up immortal shot and clear out the chargelots. The hellions aren't the point of the build, Thor/Ghost is.
-scale better with upgrades then hellions, would also allow for ghosts to receive upgrades
If you're upgrading weapons of your mineral sink, they're no longer a mineral sink. Again, the main point of this build is to allow the Thor to be at its maximum effectiveness, and everything else is a support unit.
-can be healed with medivacs, can snipe tech and nexus on drops
Are you really going to be building medivacs? It majorly cuts in on your thor count.
-smaller size allows for more units to fire at once.
The speed of hellions allow them to all be able to fire fairly easily with basic micro.
Cons
-infrastructure more mineral expensive (400v200)
-lose out on vehicle armour upgrades
-more vulnerable to splash damage due to small size
-less mobile
-less effective for mineral line harassment esp without medivacs
Conclusion:
So basically the crux of the argument becomes, is the increased damage of marines against anything not light worth the extra splash damage they take? I would hyposize that the answer depends on how well you can micro your marines.
Don't get me wrong, marines are amazing and have tons of uses. But it seems to me that in this particular style of play they have no place except to help you secure your first expansion. Marines are great when you're upgrading them and putting them in medivacs and all that. But then you're no longer playing a Thor/Ghost style, you're playing MMG with some Thor thrown in the mix.
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This is from a Terran friend of mine:
He has trouble facing a 200/200 toss army against his maxed army. He's in a situation where the Protoss has something like 6 collosi, 5 void rays, and mass zealots. He goes around I believe 15 vikings, 8 thors, etc as the guide states. Any specific micro tips for him like I guess for example what should be focused with each unit?
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Sorry to ressurect without further input, but the replays given dont seem to link to anything & I am quite interested in seeing them. Ihavent had a response from a PM to the OP, could anyone who saved the re-upload or send them?
Thanks!!!
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Wow, this build is so similar to a build I thought up of after I switched to terran. I hated going standard MMM and loved Thors, but I thought a Factory Expo was too weak, so I made my Thor build off 2 rax expos. Your build is so similar its scary. Only difference is that I will change my composition to fit my enemy's army with using marauders and cutting hellions if I'm up vs like colossi or something. I'm only gold on my terran account (but with like a 90% w/l ratio) and I beat a diamond clanmate with the prototype build. Only thing is I skip the raven, or I don't take it with my push, due to my failures at micro using tab to EMP and PDD.
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Dear uncle Dolan,
What about using this build in the TvZ match-up? Since they often tend to go for Muta's anyway, a couple of Thors accompanied with marines should be a hellish push.
Right now I use a Siege expand for all the match-ups, of which I find it the hardest to use against Protoss. Against T it creates a stalemate if you don't push early though...
Anyway, I was wondering if you could refresh the replays for me? They don't seem to work anymore. And how viable do you think this strategy is (in high Bronze) with the new patch that's out now?
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Sorry to bump this, but I'd really love to see this build in action. Does anyone have a replay I could have a look at - can't find a single one in all the usual places, and the ones listed on the OP aren't actually of this build - a few of them aren't even TvP, not sure what's going on there! If anyone could furnish me good, I'd appreciate it.
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On January 04 2012 00:05 lolpaca wrote:
Sorry to bump this, but I'd really love to see this build in action. Does anyone have a replay I could have a look at - can't find a single one in all the usual places, and the ones listed on the OP aren't actually of this build - a few of them aren't even TvP, not sure what's going on there! If anyone could furnish me good, I'd appreciate it.
Sorry mate! i didn't save replays wheni did this build It's really fun tho hihi. Uppgrades are super important!!
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On January 04 2012 00:05 lolpaca wrote:
Sorry to bump this, but I'd really love to see this build in action. Does anyone have a replay I could have a look at - can't find a single one in all the usual places, and the ones listed on the OP aren't actually of this build - a few of them aren't even TvP, not sure what's going on there! If anyone could furnish me good, I'd appreciate it.
Go on Youtube and search up the Thorzain vs MC series, Bo5 or 7, I believe and Thorzain does this build twice.
Also Thorzain vs LiquidTyler, Bo3 or 5, he demonstrates the build twice yet again.
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On January 04 2012 00:10 Espy wrote:Go on Youtube and search up the Thorzain vs MC series, Bo5 or 7, I believe and Thorzain does this build twice.
Also Thorzain vs LiquidTyler, Bo3 or 5, he demonstrates the build twice yet again.
Many thanks mate, I'll give em a look later
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is this build still viable in the new meta?
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EPT
