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A build i have been working on in TvP is one that wants to find a way to use the power of thors to do a safe expand against DT's
Thors are strong against everything but voidrays. 1 thor (300/200) kills 4 stalkers (500/200) and thors get stronger in terms of critical mass as the game goes on
And the builds reactor barracks should kick in to provide reactor marines in time to beat any voidray rush (no toss can get 4voids to your base by 7 minutes. and this build can easily handle 3voids by 7)
And the good thing about thors is they provide SOME dps against the voidrays, better than none. This build should be very good against voidray opening since you have marines.
And thors own forcefields dont even need to explain that one.
And because thors are so strong, you can do an attack by 8 minutes that should kill the toss if he went for a 7-8 minute DT rush. and if he didnt DT rush, great you have an expansion now and are on an even game.
A thor takes 60 seconds to build and kills 4 stalkers. You could think of that as like being 15 seconds for 1 stalker worth of buildtime. since a stalker from a gateway is normally 30 second buildtime, you could think of it as being 1factory making thors = 2 gateways worth of production. If the toss goes 3gate expand he spent 600 minerals on his unit production (50/50 more if he went warpgates. 600 minerals for 3gate+cyber)). this paragraph is just comparison of normal 3gate expand vs your builds production. You spend 550 minerals / 275 gas on factory+rax+armory+addons. Compared to the toss its okay because your 1 factory is as good as his 2 gateways, and your reactor rax is better than his remaining gateway. your production does cost slightly more than the toss, but it is slightly better in production ability so thats why it costs more (not to mention thor+marine wins the fight against gateway army. So your expansion build should outproduce the 3gate expand toss. if the toss 4gates you you should be safe just always build your expansion in your base before flying out and use your bunker+thors for defense.
Always do an attack at 7 minutes with the thor + marines. this is just incase the protoss doing a 7 minute DT rush. You are going out with 1000 minerals worth of units to force the toss to reveal his tech/army to you. if the protoss is good you are on a suicide mission but it doesnt matter the thor + marines should kill enough to pay for itself before it dies. you wont kill the toss but you will reveal his tech without wasting a scan and your suicide squad still kills enough to be worthwhile.
+ Show Spoiler +
Heres the build:
10depot
13rax
14gas
factory is made once you have 100gas, always
and heres where the build deviates. it changes based upon what happens
1) if a scouting probe enters your base, immediately take your 2nd gas. do not let him gas steal. this gives a slower orbital but you cannot let yourself be gas stealed
2) fill up your first gas asap. if you had to get fast 2nd gas when thats done remove 1 from first gas and put 2 in each gas.
3) when barracks is done, nonstop pump marines. get a second depot when money permits and keep making marines
4) on pretty much every map you can do a 2depot / bunker wall. Do that. build the bunker shortly after your 2nd depot is done. you want the bunker to defend against stalker pokes or any kind of rush
5) orbital timing varies. start your orbital while doing 1-4 and only start your orbital when you have 150 spare minerals without slowing down 1-4
6) do not queue up marines. try to be fast and build a marine right after its done or when the current one is at 95%. this build seems to have timings where if you do not queue up a marine, you are able to build your factory faster than if you had queue'ed up a marine. SCV's should be queue'ed up when the current building one is at 70-90%
VERY IMPORTANT GAS TIMING INFO
you make your factory the moment you have 100 gas
if you took a faster 2nd gas, you may have 4-5 mining gas for a slightly faster factory.
once your factory starts, remove gas workers until 3 are left. you wanna have 3 SCV's mining gas (put 2 on one gas, 1 on the other if you were forced to take fast 2nd gas) as your factory is building
build your recond refinery when the factory is at 50% (assuming the protoss didnt scout you so you werent forced to take fast second gas)
when your factory is at 95%, put 5 workers on gas. keep it there until you expand
when factory is done, make armory. 8 seconds later use factory to make reactor. make marines from rax then a techlab on the rax when the armory is at 50%. cancel a marine to do this if needed
when armory is done swap rax/factory and make thor+marines
constantly make thors+marines are this point. stop SCV production at 25 SCV's (learn how to count SCV's if you dont know how. ctrl+click scv + CTRL/SHIFT clicking SCV's until all are selected. 20 mining 5 on gas). do not make more than 25 SCV
as you constantly make thors+marines, keep the bunker until you have 250 spare minerals then salvage the bunker and make a command center
at this point im not sure of the best way to play the build. you could either make a barracks after the CC or maybe a third CC after the CC if you are greedy and to have more scan energy to protect against DT's
im thinking the best idea is get that expansion up ASAP and do 3port banshee asap (because 4gas can constantly support 3ports/1fact in making banshee/thor). but how many CC's to make is still unknown to me.
*VERY IMPORTANT* after using your second mule, save energy on your orbital. Pretty much you are not allowed to use mules in order to be safe against DT. heres how you use mules with this build
after your second mule, stop using mules. Allow all your orbitals to gain energy and only use a mule when an orbital is at ~160-170 energy. This includes your expansion orbitals.
or if your orbital was late. maybe the best plan is after 5 minutes, stop using mules.
Also the build intends to use orbital energy to counter DT's before the raven, so possibly getting 2 quick orbitals after your first thor might be the best way idea and then you can still use mules once they are at 170 energy, its just delayed mules.
So really you are using "delayed mules". when you have 170 energy, drop a mule, but always save 2scans per orbital incase of DT's
***** after you do your 3port banshee, get a raven soon in your first or second wave of production form the starports. after raven is obtained, feel free to drop way more mules than normal.
on 2bases i suggest 3port banshee, 1fact thor, and 2 reactor rax marines. This seems strong because the banshees can serve as a counter to collossi instead of vikings, and they are good against ground too, and you can expand during your 2base attack and get on 3 bases and start getting mech/air attack upgrades
Also i just realized something. a DT rush comes no later than 7 minutes, and because a mule gives 270 minerals, its probably more cost effective to just drop the mule at 5 minutes (instead of saving) and use that money to get a turret and you will still have extra money to get your OC's faster, and you will be able to get the money from your mules immediately instead of using the delayed mule tactic
when i was thinking of this build i was thinking of a way to counter DT's without wasting money on turrets. but i guess my idea wastes even more money than the turrets. my idea can work but you get more immediate power/income by using mules
i realize now all you need is 1 single turret between ramp/expo to counter DT's, and that 1 turret costs less than than what a single mule brings in, so im thinking now the same build could be performed but its alot smarter to simply use all your mules and just get up 1 turret to counter DT's
I am torn as to which way is best to defend against DT's. A fast raven would be optimal but it slows down thors, and costs 250 minerals 300 gas. A turret between ramp and expansion will cost as much as a mule and doesnt take so much gas. Probably using all mules and getting up a turret by 7 minutes is the optimal way to use the build
replay:
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.mediafire.com/?g26f1ad0s4uhvt8im still looking for practice partners to test this against. if your a diamond/master toss pm me if you wanna let me test this against you. this is against a platinum toss but watching the greplay it seems the plat toss didnt make much mistakes early game
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On June 26 2011 14:18 roymarthyup wrote:
And because thors are so strong, you can do an attack by 8 minutes that should kill the toss if he went for a 7-8 minute DT rush. and if he didnt DT rush, great you have an expansion now and are on an even game.
Would you care to elaborate on why a fast thor attack would be a good idea here? In general teching straight for thors and attacking is considered a guaranteed build order loss against a protoss that opens DT.
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On June 26 2011 14:40 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 14:18 roymarthyup wrote:
And because thors are so strong, you can do an attack by 8 minutes that should kill the toss if he went for a 7-8 minute DT rush. and if he didnt DT rush, great you have an expansion now and are on an even game. Would you care to elaborate on why a fast thor attack would be a good idea here? In general teching straight for thors and attacking is considered a guaranteed build order loss against a protoss that opens DT.
With scans, I disagree, it could go either way
I would argue that this would do terrible vs robo play more than anything
You got the first thor out pretty late, unless im missing something, why not just make the rax build the reactor too, so you can start the thors earlier?
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On June 26 2011 14:48 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 14:40 Jumbled wrote:On June 26 2011 14:18 roymarthyup wrote:
And because thors are so strong, you can do an attack by 8 minutes that should kill the toss if he went for a 7-8 minute DT rush. and if he didnt DT rush, great you have an expansion now and are on an even game. Would you care to elaborate on why a fast thor attack would be a good idea here? In general teching straight for thors and attacking is considered a guaranteed build order loss against a protoss that opens DT. With scans, I disagree, it could go either way I would argue that this would do terrible vs robo play more than anything You got the first thor out pretty late, unless im missing something, why not just make the rax build the reactor too, so you can start the thors earlier?
based on the timings of 3stalker rush pokes and things like that you wanna get up the bunker / marines in time and if you use the rax to make the reactor in the end scheme of things its pointless because the factory is idle/doing nothing and it can make the reactor leading to more marines by 7 minutes
this build should have 2 orbitals by around 8 minutes with plenty of scans available to beat a 8 minute DT rush
if any tosses or terrans out there do not think this can beat a DT rush (which it is designed to beat) then please PM me and we can test it really quick. i will do the build normally, you DT rush.
the build is supposed to stop using mules after 5 minutes so by 8 minutes you have 2 OC and plenty of scans to counter DT
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To much theory crafting buddy. This build is essentially an all in Thor rush which is made bad by expanding behind it and heavy teching.
You would have to save 3-4 scans depending on the rush distance if uses his dark templar to keep you from pushing, this is going to hurt your economy aton, and put you at an all in point where you will be pretty all in even though your expanding behind it, (i assume your bringing some scv's to repair the thor), essentially if your thor push doesn't do critical amounts of damage your both expanding and extremely heavy teching and will die to any counter push.
Also you have no turrets at home for defense while pushing so if he counter attacks your in a world of hurt.
Personally i don't like this, if you want to counter dark templar tech and are going to tech that much go for a raven, that will flat out kill them, also how do you know he's going dark templar, this is a little to specific in what its countering, (it takes a long time to get to thors and save the scans). If you want to play economically just have good turret timing at your front.
On a side note if your going to do this i'd prefer you to go two port banshee while continuing to produce thors since the infrastructure is already there.
The other thing i really don't like about this build is that there's no scouting by you really, it's just look this build is strong and can counter dark templar (maybe) IF he goes for them.
***** after you do your 3port banshee, get a raven soon in your first or second wave of production form the starports. after raven is obtained, feel free to drop way more mules than normal.
on 2bases i suggest 3port banshee, 1fact thor, and 2 reactor rax marines. This seems strong because the banshees can serve as a counter to collossi instead of vikings, and they are good against ground too, and you can expand during your 2base attack and get on 3 bases and start getting mech/air attack upgrades
you can't support this, especially with such heavy teching all in opener, also your 3rd base will be extremely delayed
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you can't support this, especially with such heavy teching all in opener, also your 3rd base will be extremely delayed
yes you can. watch the replay. its not theorycraft.
if you think its theorycraft, play a game with me. pm me we can play in a few days or whenever
in the replay i support 3port banshee (constantly making banshees) plus 1factory thor (making a thor most of the time) on 2 bases
2 bases give about 470 gas per minute
3 banshees + 1 thor uses 500 gas per minute
this means you are slightly slower on your thor production and only make one every 70 seconds or so but your 3 ports are constantly making banshees
also, to make the raven that means for 1 minute you dont make a banshee on 1 of your starports, and thats it, full banshee production after that. who cares about that minute
its not theorycraft. watch the replay. 3port banshee can be supported.
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Hi,
Can you give us an idea of how this build fares against a standard build that isn't a DT expand?
You mention that your expansion should be even with a 3 gate expand protoss, but It seems most protoss are favoring 2 gate expands nowadays, either HuK or Naniwa style, or the old 2 gate robo. Personally, I haven't gone up against much DT recently- any at all actually.
Also, why not just use your third scan to see what tech they're going? I feel that usually with the scouting SCV, if you see an early double gas, you know there's tech and with a scan you usually know what's going on by scanning the area where they placed down the second pylon. It seems much more economical to me to throw down a security ebay and work early upgrades into your build, or simply throw one down when you scan/scout something fishy- which is either Stargate or DT, which e-bay is at the least decent for both.
And because thors are so strong, you can do an attack by 8 minutes that should kill the toss if he went for a 7-8 minute DT rush. and if he didnt DT rush, great you have an expansion now and are on an even game.'
Can you explain your words here? Why do you say this? If its a 7 minute DT rush and he sees you leaving your base you'll have scans forced from you all the way up to the P's base since he'll feed 1 DT at a time at your army. I get the feeling you're going to need anywhere from 3-5 scans just to get to his base, not to mention what happens when you're actually there. Why not just 2 rax expo instead, which stops VR, 4 wg, and can grab a engi bay for DT's/upgrades? It's faster, and allows for much more mobility.
Basically, I feel like you're missing a lot of explanation in your build, such as why you do X at time Y. Not in terms of gas timings which was rather extensive, but essentially everything else.
Lastly, you mention that you should throw down a second gas if the protoss comes in to scout you- I personally find that I almost always get scouted by P before the standard second gas timing for T comes out if teching, at 50% factory.
Sorry, I just feel like this post doesnt explain a lot of questions that seem to crop up, and isn't very solid when explained this way. Good luck though.
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On June 26 2011 15:20 InfO wrote:Hi, Can you give us an idea of how this build fares against a standard build that isn't a DT expand? You mention that your expansion should be even with a 3 gate expand protoss, but It seems most protoss are favoring 2 gate expands nowadays, either HuK or Naniwa style, or the old 2 gate robo. Personally, I haven't gone up against much DT recently- any at all actually. Also, why not just use your third scan to see what tech they're going? I feel that usually with the scouting SCV, if you see an early double gas, you know there's tech and with a scan you usually know what's going on by scanning the area where they placed down the second pylon. It seems much more economical to me to throw down a security ebay and work early upgrades into your build, or simply throw one down when you scan/scout something fishy- which is either Stargate or DT, which e-bay is at the least decent for both. Show nested quote +And because thors are so strong, you can do an attack by 8 minutes that should kill the toss if he went for a 7-8 minute DT rush. and if he didnt DT rush, great you have an expansion now and are on an even game.'
Can you explain your words here? Why do you say this? If its a 7 minute DT rush and he sees you leaving your base you'll have scans forced from you all the way up to the P's base since he'll feed 1 DT at a time at your army. I get the feeling you're going to need anywhere from 3-5 scans just to get to his base, not to mention what happens when you're actually there. Why not just 2 rax expo instead, which stops VR, 4 wg, and can grab a engi bay for DT's/upgrades? It's faster, and allows for much more mobility. Basically, I feel like you're missing a lot of explanation in your build, such as why you do X at time Y. Not in terms of gas timings which was rather extensive, but essentially everything else. Lastly, you mention that you should throw down a second gas if the protoss comes in to scout you- I personally find that I almost always get scouted by P before the standard second gas timing for T comes out if teching, at 50% factory. Sorry, I just feel like this post doesnt explain a lot of questions that seem to crop up, and isn't very solid when explained this way. Good luck though.
by 8 minutes you should have 2 OC's done and plenty of scans.
when i think about it you are correct, theoretically if the toss tries to force scans / defend he can prevent his death.
if the toss tries to kill you with the DT and not fight your push, he dies. but if the toss finds your push and forces scans to survive, the toss will be able to prevent his death
so i agree with you people saying it is possible for the toss to survive. lets look at that scenario
the protoss uses DT's to force scans and keep you in your base and the protoss survives. Cool, no problem, if he got DT's that quickly it means he didnt expand yet and you already have 2 OC's in your base. So once you see him with DT's protect your base, raise your depot wall (which should be raised no matter what, DT shouldnt get into your base without killing the wall, bring repairing SCV's, make a engi, and use your 2 orbitals and scans to kill DT's until turret is done at your wall.
land your expansion and build a turret at expansion while using scans to defend the building turret
that right there is how to get your expansion up against the DT rushing protoss. your expansion is faster than the protoss and you can now get a raven up and push/kill him upright after securing your expansion
if you wanna see how it works in defending a DT rush i can play a game with you pm me anytime
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Did you know that many consider the counter to a thor rush dt's? If used correctly a dt rush will absolutely pick this apart.
The only thing I could see this beating is a 6 gate all in with 10 sentries... And who would do that vs a 1 base teching terran?
No, I can't see a good player ever losing to this.
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So, It seem that your answer after your push, if this is a DT rush, is to get an engi bay and a raven?
I don't doubt that this build should be fine against a DT expand, but my problem is that it doesn't seem as smooth as a 2 rax expo, or a 1/1/1 build. 2 rax expo has synergy with an engi bay and a fast +1 timing attack that can usually be exploited somewhere, and a 1/1/1 build will get the raven out fast, and as long as the wall was not breached, then you can usually win easily with the right timing.
Can you explain why this build works better? I feel like you have to use it whenever you feel like the opp will do a DT rush, which means you know the player (are in a tournament probs) or you do it literally every game on ladder, because you can't guess which opponent is going to DT rush.
What lategame composition are you aiming for with this build? IS there a lategame composition other than mass banshee? If yes, then don't HT crush this? it seems that zealot/Immortal/HT would just roll this build over in the lategame, though a strong harassment style with the banshee's I can certainly see working.
I feel like most builds dont have problems with DT's, since with scans and a wall there's really no way to break a terran with DT's easily.
This build fast tech's to Thors, with marine support that is unupgraded. I get the feeling a 2 gate robo build would pick this apart, and then counter. Can you post more replays of this working against higher level protoss'? I haven't watched the current one, but no offense, if its against a Platinum protoss there are definitely bound to be a lot of problems with his/her play.
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my problem with this is that you specifically say to cut probes at 25 and dont build more after that for a very long time
in your replay your opponent didnt tech to more than blink stalker and immortal after 15 min of play, which is not very efficient (regarding he already saw thors in the beginning and built only stalkers)
I really like the thor/banshee push, but it obviously gets taken apart by HTs.
why don't you practice it on ladder?
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On June 26 2011 15:05 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 14:48 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On June 26 2011 14:40 Jumbled wrote:On June 26 2011 14:18 roymarthyup wrote:
And because thors are so strong, you can do an attack by 8 minutes that should kill the toss if he went for a 7-8 minute DT rush. and if he didnt DT rush, great you have an expansion now and are on an even game. Would you care to elaborate on why a fast thor attack would be a good idea here? In general teching straight for thors and attacking is considered a guaranteed build order loss against a protoss that opens DT. With scans, I disagree, it could go either way I would argue that this would do terrible vs robo play more than anything You got the first thor out pretty late, unless im missing something, why not just make the rax build the reactor too, so you can start the thors earlier? based on the timings of 3stalker rush pokes and things like that you wanna get up the bunker / marines in time and if you use the rax to make the reactor in the end scheme of things its pointless because the factory is idle/doing nothing and it can make the reactor leading to more marines by 7 minutes
why would your factory be idling? its making the thor off the techlab..
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as a toss player i can agree on this build being very effective. any kind of thor based build makes life alot harder for me since it chews through gateway units really easy.
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the protoss uses DT's to force scans and keep you in your base and the protoss survives. Cool, no problem, if he got DT's that quickly it means he didnt expand yet and you already have 2 OC's in your base. So once you see him with DT's protect your base, raise your depot wall (which should be raised no matter what, DT shouldnt get into your base without killing the wall, bring repairing SCV's, make a engi, and use your 2 orbitals and scans to kill DT's until turret is done at your wall.
This right here shows why this build is not a good counter to the dark templar fe. Here you say that he uses the dt to keep you in your base so then his build has worked, that is the entire reason of going for dark templar fast expand. Also you say your on one base and then your waiting for ANOTHER large tech into raven while being redundant and getting turrets. By this point the protoss will be on two base for so long you will be way behind in supply due to your one basing and extremely heavy teching.
Again just go for a raven timing push
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Another thing is that in your build you take your gas EXTREMELY early you take your 2nd gas at 16 which is sacrifices aton of economy, as a protoss who does dark templar fast expand if i see my opponent going for double gas i'm never going to do a dt fe since i will die 100% of the time if he goes for a raven timing push. Instead i can just go for a voidray all in or a 4 gate and you WILL die.
At the 4 gate timing you have like 5 marines, this is not even close enough to hold
Also a voidray all in will hit with 2 voidrays close to this time and it will also role you over
--Also the replay is not even a valid example at all since your opponent goes for 2 gate expand pressure, doesn't prepare for a cloaked banshee at the timing, and does an extremely poor attempt at a bust of your ramp and then does not prepare for your thor push at all once he's scouted it,(no infrastructure, no zealots), also he doesn't even have a 3rd base at like 16 minutes at fast expanding so again not a good example game, needs to be against a player who is executing a decent build.
--You also bring no scv's to repair your thors which makes your timing attack extremely easy to defeat
-Again when your opponent sees that your teching with your 2nd gas he will never go for dark templar and since your gas is on 16 he'll just go kill you instead
ALSO your just theory crafting, the one replay you provide isn't even against a dark templar fe
by 8 minutes you should have 2 OC's done and plenty of scans.
when i think about it you are correct, theoretically if the toss tries to force scans / defend he can prevent his death.
if the toss tries to kill you with the DT and not fight your push, he dies. but if the toss finds your push and forces scans to survive, the toss will be able to prevent his death
so i agree with you people saying it is possible for the toss to survive. lets look at that scenario
the protoss uses DT's to force scans and keep you in your base and the protoss survives. Cool, no problem, if he got DT's that quickly it means he didnt expand yet and you already have 2 OC's in your base. So once you see him with DT's protect your base, raise your depot wall (which should be raised no matter what, DT shouldnt get into your base without killing the wall, bring repairing SCV's, make a engi, and use your 2 orbitals and scans to kill DT's until turret is done at your wall.
Even though the protoss will never go dt fe against you after seeing you double gas if he did here's another problem, you misunderstand the point of early dark templar play. There is no player who is just going to rush for dark templar without expanding behind it unless he is just bad and he's not going to attempt to kill you with them unless you've decided to skip turrets(your build goes only on scans so he can just kill you). He will get them quickly to prevent you from pushing out of your base so he can get an early expansion safe expo. He is never going to try to kill you with dark templar, what he will do is he will first do a poke with the dark templar to see if you have turrets up, if you don't its gg right there since he'll destroy your economy and force aton of scans (also you don't have an engineering bay yet so he can force scans till your out and then it's gg).
If you do get a turret up in time you still can't push out since you've just used up your scans. If you do what your suggesting which is to turtle on one base for this long even though you have your second cc your not mining from it so your opponent toss will be extremely far ahead economically and you will be forced to all in.
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On June 26 2011 17:23 AcrosstheSky wrote:Show nested quote +
the protoss uses DT's to force scans and keep you in your base and the protoss survives. Cool, no problem, if he got DT's that quickly it means he didnt expand yet and you already have 2 OC's in your base. So once you see him with DT's protect your base, raise your depot wall (which should be raised no matter what, DT shouldnt get into your base without killing the wall, bring repairing SCV's, make a engi, and use your 2 orbitals and scans to kill DT's until turret is done at your wall.
This right here shows why this build is not a good counter to the dark templar fe. Here you say that he uses the dt to keep you in your base so then his build has worked, that is the entire reason of going for dark templar fast expand. Also you say your on one base and then your waiting for ANOTHER large tech into raven while being redundant and getting turrets. By this point the protoss will be on two base for so long you will be way behind in supply due to your one basing and extremely heavy teching. Again just go for a raven timing push
this build doesnt cut SCV's and actually gets power units
the DT expand may not cut probes, but it gets weak nonpower units that are weak once the terran has a raven. he is slowing down his collossi tech
the best case scenario for the DT expand protoss is he gets a expansion at the same time as the terran with a weaker tech option / weaker army
ill book on it any day vs a DT expand protoss. Im here to say any protoss that feels they can beat this with a DT build, please PM me and try
Also i just realized something. a DT rush comes no later than 7 minutes, and because a mule gives 270 minerals, its probably more cost effective to just drop the mule at 5 minutes (instead of saving) and use that money to get a turret and you will still have extra money to get your OC's faster, and you will be able to get the money from your mules immediately instead of using the delayed mule tactic
when i was thinking of this build i was thinking of a way to counter DT's without wasting money on turrets. but i guess my idea wastes even more money than the turrets. my idea can work but you get more immediate power/income by using mules
i realize now all you need is 1 single turret between ramp/expo to counter DT's, and that 1 turret costs less than that a single mule brings in, so im thinking now the same build could be performed but its alot smarter to simply use all your mules and just get up 1 turret to counter DT's
On June 26 2011 15:37 Leargle wrote:
Did you know that many consider the counter to a thor rush dt's? If used correctly a dt rush will absolutely pick this apart.
The only thing I could see this beating is a 6 gate all in with 10 sentries... And who would do that vs a 1 base teching terran?
No, I can't see a good player ever losing to this.
well then. i hope i can find a good player to face to prove yalll wrong
any diamond/master protosses wanna play a game with me in a few days to test this more? pm me anytime
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You bring the raven up but thats because it outright kills a dark templar fe. which is why any decent player will NEVER dt fe against a teching terran, partly because he is delaying his detection so cloaked banshees will kill him and partly because a raven push will kill him.
the best case scenario for the DT expand protoss is he gets a expansion at the same time as the terran with a weaker tech option / weaker army
not true, he will be expanding before 30 food usually and you took yours at around 9:30
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On June 26 2011 18:05 AcrosstheSky wrote:You bring the raven up but thats because it outright kills a dark templar fe. which is why any decent player will NEVER dt fe against a teching terran, partly because he is delaying his detection so cloaked banshees will kill him and partly because a raven push will kill him. Show nested quote +the best case scenario for the DT expand protoss is he gets a expansion at the same time as the terran with a weaker tech option / weaker army
not true, he will be expanding before 30 food usually and you took yours at around 9:30
i changed the build slightly because there was a big force outside of my ramp about the time my first thor finished
that wont be there against a dt expand toss (if there is a force it will be much smaller)
this build doesnt do the same thing every game it reacts to what the enemy does
any toss out there that thinks they can beat this or get a big advantage using early DT's against me, please PM me. i designed this specifically to counter DT's, if it cant do that its worthless
not saying you are wrong, just asking for skilled tosses to play me if they think their DT's are good enough
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If this isn't theory crafting post a replay of you against a diamond toss who knows how to dark templar fast expand. AGAIN your not listening, they will see the double gas and NOT go for the dark templar fast expand and change their build to something else, if you take it on 16 you are going to get all in'd.
The "big" army at your front was a 2 gate non timed attack comon now
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On June 26 2011 18:14 AcrosstheSky wrote:
If this isn't theory crafting post a replay of you against a diamond toss who knows how to dark templar fast expand.
trying to. need a good protoss to PM me so i can create such a replay. any tosses may PM me anytime if you think you know a way to punish this build.
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On June 26 2011 14:18 roymarthyup wrote:
constantly make thors+marines are this point. stop SCV production at 25 SCV's (learn how to count SCV's if you dont know how. ctrl+click scv + CTRL/SHIFT clicking SCV's until all are selected. 20 mining 5 on gas). do not make more than 25 SCV
On June 26 2011 17:59 roymarthyup wrote:
this build doesnt cut SCV's and actually gets power units
just saying...
and also in your replay you were significantly behind in economy (until he suicided like 20 probes into your push) because you stopped SCV production
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On June 26 2011 18:24 schaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 14:18 roymarthyup wrote:
constantly make thors+marines are this point. stop SCV production at 25 SCV's (learn how to count SCV's if you dont know how. ctrl+click scv + CTRL/SHIFT clicking SCV's until all are selected. 20 mining 5 on gas). do not make more than 25 SCV Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 17:59 roymarthyup wrote:
this build doesnt cut SCV's and actually gets power units just saying... and also in your replay you were significantly behind in economy (until he suicided like 20 probes into your push) because you stopped SCV production
25 scv for 1 base is saturated (you dont want a 6th gas. and the 21st scv provides such a small amount of extra income for the 50 mineral cost that its smarter to use those 50 minerals to go towards a command center
once you have 25 SCV's, saving money for an expansion is NOT the same as "cutting scv's"
it is not smart to keep building scv's when you are saturated... its better to start your expansion as fast as possible at that point
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Ok dude i did this as well when i first got on TL but don't post a guide untill you've played alot of games with it and know its good with solid facts behind it. Even a few day's of you playing it usually isn't enough.
Again remember when thinking up a build to say how does this deal with a common timing push? a 4 gate comes at this time, do i have enough to hold it? Do this for all the potential timing attacks and know with scouting that you can hold them. Right now you'd have to refine this build down alot to hold any early push and to make it viable and then it would turn into a thor rush.
Remember you almost don't need to take dark templar into consideration with this build since he won't be doing it and if he does he's just bad since you can get a relatively quick raven and he will be just dead.
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On June 26 2011 18:29 AcrosstheSky wrote:
Ok dude i did this as well when i first got on TL but don't post a guide untill you've played alot of games with it and know its good with solid facts behind it. Even a few day's of you playing it usually isn't enough.
Again remember when thinking up a build to say how does this deal with a common timing push? a 4 gate comes at this time, do i have enough to hold it? Do this for all the potential timing attacks and know with scouting that you can hold them. Right now you'd have to refine this build down alot to hold any early push and to make it viable and then it would turn into a thor rush.
Remember you almost don't need to take dark templar into consideration with this build since he won't be doing it and if he does he's just bad since you can get a relatively quick raven and he will be just dead.
saracen said we can post guides and if he feels its too much theorycraft he will bo3 me and if i lose i get banned
im trying to find a diamond or master toss to play against. just gotta wait for a pm. replays should come soon.
thats good enough for you or what do you want?
if you want. you can 4gate me. wanna do that? i can beat it easily. pm me anytime
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Btw..i think saracen is probably pretty good but..yea gl with that. I'm not sure if i want to waist my time against this but maybe if i'm on tomorrow.
But how many actual games have you played of this? just the one? because if so go contact saracen ha ha
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Hopefully someone steps up to the plate, but I can play you if needed. The only problem is that I'm in China right now, and that means 1: Time difference issues, and 2: I have about a half second lag between my orders, and the orders being followed, so my micro is.... pretty bad, but im still sitting around Diamond T/P/Z so I can play if there's no alternative. I've literally never DT expanded before (I feel the build just loses to a timing attack more so than most builds- too gimmicky imo), but if you're just looking for a standard game from me to punish this build, i feel like I can pull it off.
I did some practice games against Thor rushes a few months ago, and I was eventually able to hold them off. My character code is 275, so add me in a few days in no one else wants to play. We can just post the replays here for TL to decide whether or not my play is a fair representation of a protoss response to this build, and try to go from there. Just warning though, with the lag my gameplay is rather shoddy.
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Sorry for the double post- I cant access the replay, probably because the Chinese government blocked mediafire. Can you post it on SC2reps or something like that?
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i already hate this build when you said stop droping mules at 5 min mark
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This build makes for an interesting timing attack, I dont get why you can just do a normal build and add e-bay and turrets at entry points if you have made an entire build around countering DTs that doesnt do anything to actually counter them?
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I found this thread through the Liquipedia entry for this build. The Liquipedia page doesn't mention anything about stopping DTs, only that this build is good versus the Protoss death ball. Maybe it should be marketed as such on this thread.
The OP should answer some basic questions about this build. What maps would this be strong on? Weak? When do you move out? The build description lists 7 and 8 minutes, while the title of the thread says 6 minutes.
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umm i thought this thread was closed
i dunno why someone would make a liquipedia entry for this build
mods please close this thread i will tell you when i have enough replays to re open it.
i am still testing this build with practice partners and creating replays and finding out weaknesses and strengths.
also there may be better more optimal ways of doing the build which i am testing out soooooo long story short please close this thread until i have enough replays then i will PM you to open it back up
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On July 03 2011 09:53 roymarthyup wrote:
umm i thought this thread was closed
i dunno why someone would make a liquipedia entry for this build
mods please close this thread i will tell you when i have enough replays to re open it.
i am still testing this build with practice partners and creating replays and finding out weaknesses and strengths.
also there may be better more optimal ways of doing the build which i am testing out soooooo long story short please close this thread until i have enough replays then i will PM you to open it back up
Uh, dumbass, because it isn't orginal. Reactor marine + fast 1 base thor marine scv all in has been around for a long fucking time.
Pro tip, learn to make an opening. 10 supply 12 rax 13 gas 15 oc 18 fac 18 gas works just wonders in getting a reactor rax + hellion scout -> thor push.
14 refinery is late, and unnecessary
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On July 03 2011 09:56 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 09:53 roymarthyup wrote:
umm i thought this thread was closed
i dunno why someone would make a liquipedia entry for this build
mods please close this thread i will tell you when i have enough replays to re open it.
i am still testing this build with practice partners and creating replays and finding out weaknesses and strengths.
also there may be better more optimal ways of doing the build which i am testing out soooooo long story short please close this thread until i have enough replays then i will PM you to open it back up Uh, dumbass, because it isn't orginal. Reactor marine + fast 1 base thor marine scv all in has been around for a long fucking time.
i never said it was original
this thread is a discussion on if reactor rax marines/thor expands
are safe against toss and its a discussion if the 2base thor + 3port banshee idea is good or not
i just thought the thread should probably be closed because people dont wanna read it if i havnt yet finished getting all the replays. but meh whatever doesnt matter to me
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On July 03 2011 10:00 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 09:56 iAmJeffReY wrote:On July 03 2011 09:53 roymarthyup wrote:
umm i thought this thread was closed
i dunno why someone would make a liquipedia entry for this build
mods please close this thread i will tell you when i have enough replays to re open it.
i am still testing this build with practice partners and creating replays and finding out weaknesses and strengths.
also there may be better more optimal ways of doing the build which i am testing out soooooo long story short please close this thread until i have enough replays then i will PM you to open it back up Uh, dumbass, because it isn't orginal. Reactor marine + fast 1 base thor marine scv all in has been around for a long fucking time. i never said it was original this thread is a discussion on if reactor rax marines/thor expands are safe against toss and its a discussion if the 2base thor + 3port banshee idea is good or not i just thought the thread should probably be closed because people dont wanna read it if i havnt yet finished getting all the replays. but meh whatever doesnt matter to me
Nothing you post is of an interest, or quality. You theory craft. And, to boot, every thread you post you're suddenly playing a new race. You need to be banned for always posting stupid shit, to be honest.
It isn't hard to get up replays if you REALLY PLAYED and didn't just theorycraft. I can go online right now, and play 5-10 TvP in a row against 4-5 different master level protoss and put together a guide for a 3 fac marine tank hellion push. Know why? Because I truely play, and I truely understand the game. I don't just come up with some 'new' idea and let it out like it's awesome.
Also -- why take dudes of gas if you're going 3 port banshee? -_- You need gas, no use not stock piling it.
Because fuck, after over 1k games (assuming you're around 50%) you think you'd learn by now that all these ideas just won't work
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what prompted you to go 13 rax 14 gas over 12 rax 13 gas when 12 rax 13 gas gets you faster buildings and orbital?
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On July 03 2011 10:16 SiN] wrote:
what prompted you to go 13 rax 14 gas over 12 rax 13 gas when 12 rax 13 gas gets you faster buildings and orbital?
the build cannot be done if you get gas stolen. so you can try it without 2 fast gasses and stop if you get gas stolen, or you can just take 2 fast gasses no matter what to stop urself from being gas stolen
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On July 03 2011 09:53 roymarthyup wrote:
umm i thought this thread was closed
i dunno why someone would make a liquipedia entry for this build
Umm, probably the same reason someone would make a TL post for this build.
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You don't state what server you are on, so if you want a high diamond protoss on EU feel free to PM me, or add me ingame, Surili.603
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You really need to think before posting builds like this. Or at least play some games to see what it can and what it cant do.
This build is solely relaying on hope. You hope your opponent goes DT rush, and you plan to counter it. And how do you counter it? By saving scans. Yes, those precious early scans, that keep you in somewhat balance with toss chronoboost. So by the time your attack comes, you will be really behind in your economy. The only thing you can do is hope he is going dts, so you can kill him right there and than. If he went for anything else, his better economy will guarantee he has more stuff than you do, so you are dead.
This is like some weak variant of thor/revan/marines. Instead of saving 3-4 scans, build revan. Than his stalkers will have trouble killing thors because of PDD.
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On July 04 2011 17:56 Surili wrote:
You don't state what server you are on, so if you want a high diamond protoss on EU feel free to PM me, or add me ingame, Surili.603
Because that's all just an act. He truely doesn't want to play any games, or else he would've posted reps. He has a ton of games on his account, it's all just a 'posting reps later' thing. It's a load of shit.
And to stop a gas steal, just do a normal 12 rax 13 gas, scout gets there take gas and cancel the scv making it, leaving the refinery there. It comes after OC, and before 2nd depot.
I do it vs zerg almost every day. Problem of gas steal solved.
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I much prefer the ThorZain version of this build, where you go 1-1-1, skip the reactor, produce one tank once your tech lab finishes on your factory, then go starport, one banshee, one raven, then banshees out of 1 port. Then you add 1 or 2 factories and begin adding thors while upgrading vehicle plating and getting the thor's cannon, don't stop producing marines and bashees. I think it's even better since you get a raven and can deny observers/dt.
This makes a strong 2 bases push (once you get +2 armor) and offers possibilities for macro games as you add your third while pushing (there is a strong possibility that you'll need starport+reactor to get vikings if you scout colossus play). I believe there's a thread already in the strategy thread, where ThorZain himself commented on the build.
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On July 04 2011 22:58 ThorTure wrote:
I much prefer the ThorZain version of this build, where you go 1-1-1, skip the reactor, produce one tank once your tech lab finishes on your factory, then go starport, one banshee, one raven, then banshees out of 1 port. Then you add 1 or 2 factories and begin adding thors while upgrading vehicle plating and getting the thor's cannon, don't stop producing marines and bashees. I think it's even better since you get a raven and can deny observers/dt.
This makes a strong 2 bases push (once you get +2 armor) and offers possibilities for macro games as you add your third while pushing (there is a strong possibility that you'll need starport+reactor to get vikings if you scout colossus play). I believe there's a thread already in the strategy thread, where ThorZain himself commented on the build.
Interesting. I'll have to look into that. I'm sick of going bio every game.
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dont mean to sound stupid here but isnt wasting scans on a fe build counter productive? why not save energy and mule for the same effect on 1 base?? build a raven for detection maybe turrets?? wouldnt that still be cheaper than wasting energy on scans?
pardon the noobishness...
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i like the idea of getting early thor more so for defense/safely expanding. normally T's expans are a bit late due to FF contain and how strong it is, which gives toss 1-2 minute lead every time. which a thor out tho we wouldnt have this issue, and as you said thors are rather good units early on anyways.
i dont really know about m aking more than 1 thor for my army at any point in time tho
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You need to include at least 10 replays vs. master league opponents for this to be threadworthy.
What is this discussion even about, anyway? This post was clearly meant as a guide, but falls short of the qualitative requirements of that thread type so is labelled [D].
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Let's put this build in another perspective: Against P it seems to depend on something that is not easy to scout, but you assume from the meta-game of the MU (DT FE). But what about using this build if you scout a Z going for a greedy Spanishiwa build? Wouldn't thors be great to
kill the spinecrawler/queens defending the FE?
(I'm Z and as Z this sounds scary to me since the Thor push comes slightly before I have Infestors...)
GG GL & HF
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If he sees you going mass thors and banshee's he could go mass HT's. Feedbacks do quite a bit of damage to banshees without cloak and thors without th 250 mm cannon ability..
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I really like the thor/marine opening even it might be vulnerable to heavy zealot builds maybe with some sentrys/immortals.
But in my opinion the 3 port banshee is extremly risky, if you aren't able to catch the Protoss off guard. High Templar will crush you with feedback (and storm vs marines) and some chargelots will easily clean up all the remaining Thors.
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EPT
