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Tvk
Latvia62 Posts
When Im cannon walled, I mostly try to do 1-base allin with lings+nydus, however it stopped to work :/ actually it dont work anymore at all on mine MMR (middle-masters ~900+pts). Any viable tactic, preferable with short BO, so I could test it out in customs with different scenarios would be appreciated  Ty for reply. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
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Outlawrawrmoser
2 Posts
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Tvk
Latvia62 Posts
 Theres also a 90% chance of voidray rush after cannon wall :/ that makes 1base mass roaches useless. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
spine overlord at edge of base hydra den hydras immediately go bust down his wall expand ???? profit | ||
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Flaunt
New Zealand784 Posts
On May 24 2011 10:10 Keilah wrote: lair spine overlord at edge of base hydra den hydras immediately go bust down his wall expand ???? profit Most Protoss players know you're doing this and will just blind counter, lol. 3 Drones>the pylon when it drops. Don't cancel your hatch and just don't overreact to it. You only need 3 drones to take down the middle pylon and your lings clean up the rest. The reason this works a lot at the low level is because a lot of Z players do what Keilah said and tech, go nydus or mass a lot of roach to bust out of it. All of these are wrong and protoss players are wanting you to do these things. | ||
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Dr.DoCToR
17 Posts
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
On May 24 2011 10:14 Flaunt wrote: Most Protoss players know you're doing this and will just blind counter, lol. 3 Drones>the pylon when it drops. Don't cancel your hatch and just don't overreact to it. You only need 3 drones to take down the middle pylon and your lings clean up the rest. The reason this works a lot at the low level is because a lot of Z players do what Keilah said and tech, go nydus or mass a lot of roach to bust out of it. All of these are wrong and protoss players are wanting you to do these things. Don't follow this guy's advice. He's wrong. Slush lost to this without going hatch first in NASL and he's not "low level" like this guy is suggesting. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
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Zeroes
United States1102 Posts
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Phay
55 Posts
Dealing with the first pylon is by far the best. Lost mining time is about as bad as the money either tied up or lost from the early pylon at your ramp. If that fails, I've had the most success with getting a fast roach warren and pushing out when you have enough to lose 1 or no roaches, then pressuring. Maybe add in sling speed if the wall is larger. Expand at your natural behind you attack. | ||
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Chimpalimp
United States1135 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
Personally I've been doing hydra-ling. They aren't going to have colossi out! Lings tank, hydras shred everything. I really do like an in-base hatch vs this nonsense, though. Edit: it occurs to me to have the drop done at a reasonable time you need that in base hatch to upgrade speed while you upgrade drop. (start drop first) This build puts them super far behind in tech, since their gateway starts 450 minerals late. I think the reason you don't see this anymore since the change to have it require 3 cannons instead of 2 is because of responses like this. (which were already viable against the 2 pylon + 1 cannon contain) Edit2: creeping to your ramp and then poking yourself out with a spine takes AGES. Literally, even if you build the spine and just have it root in range once creep gets there. If you're waiting to take the ground route out, not only does the toss get alarm bells going off that you're busting out, but he's got extra time while you do this. | ||
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Scriptix
United States145 Posts
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Keilah
731 Posts
I don't really get how sending drones to kill a pylon will help. The protoss makes 3 pylons and a cannon, the cannon will still be powered and killing your stuff if you try to take it out. Super easy for the protoss to send another probe or two to help defend the cannon if he sees you pounding on the pylon with drones (presumably so your lings can get out and barely kill the cannon), or build another cannon + cancel it if not needed, and/or rebuild the pylon after you kill it. re: 4gate >> hydras, like I said an overlord will tell you if he expanded or not. If he expanded, your hydras are fine. If not, I don't really know for sure but I'd wager hydra/ling or roach/hydra or pure roach or burrow roach will all do fine vs 4gate, 1base vs 1base, when you consider the resources protoss wasted at the start of the game. | ||
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Keilah
731 Posts
On May 24 2011 10:36 sylverfyre wrote: Edit2: creeping to your ramp and then poking yourself out with a spine takes AGES. Literally, even if you build the spine and just have it root in range once creep gets there. If you're waiting to take the ground route out, not only does the toss get alarm bells going off that you're busting out, but he's got extra time while you do this. Were you hoping to fool the protoss into thinking you'd never try to bust out? BTW, if you go drop or nydus you still need lair so your overlord can poop creep at the ramp and you need a spine to defend so you break down the wall with a spine regardless. | ||
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
Holding an all-in is just a matter of scouting. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
you're behind, but you're not dead. | ||
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Jacko11
China146 Posts
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
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McGuire72
Canada140 Posts
And all this non-sense about going for a roach all-in cuz the protoss will be at a tech disadvantage is freaking ridiculous. By the time you've got enough roaches to break out of your base, you're so far behind economically that your ONLY option is to go all-in. Unfortunately by this point the toss has cannoned himself in on two bases and you're still on one. Macro up? You're susceptible to basically any timing attack the toss wants to throw at you. Drops? Good luck cuz you're behind a base and he will simply outproduce you. Honestly the only thing you can do right now (and from watching pros' streams I think I'm right about this) is go 14 pool and expand around 21. If the toss went forge first you're going to be ahead in economy and tech shortly anyway and can play a standard macro game from there. If you do go hatch first, it should only be on maps like xel naga where you have a 100% scouting chance, and I would send my drone around 9 to see if he's going forge first, in which case you HAVE to patrol your ramp to deny pylon blocking. Diamond zerg here so basically a newb I admit, but these are just my thoughts on this cheese so take them for what they're worth. | ||
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Pamposek
Czech Republic56 Posts
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proxY_
United States1561 Posts
Scouting the forge is obviously great as you can just drone patrol block, nothing wrong with that. You just shouldn't go hatch first vs protoss, the protoss has a few options for punishing it (more than just the cannon thing), going speed first or just pool first is a much safer option. Honestly I would even recommend 9 pooling on maps where the forge opening is popular (shakuras and tal-darim), you can do very decisive damage to them if they forge first with an outer wall-in pylon and the build isn't that all-inish if you immediately get a queen and return to droning after the initial 6 lings. | ||
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theMarkovian
Netherlands183 Posts
Guide is here. If you spot it in time, you only need three drones to break the middle pylon just before the cannon finishes, allowing your lings and drones to kill the cannon. This works unless your opponent found a way to make all three pylons attackable by 2 or fewer drones Good luck! | ||
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FlaminGinjaNinja
United Kingdom879 Posts
On May 24 2011 09:23 Keilah wrote: make a spine and either a creep tumor or lair + overlord This would be the easiest and cheapest way to break it. If you have a scouting drone out you can always expand to somewhere other then your natural. You can also fast tech while your spine breakes their wall in, mutas or nydus to completely avoid the cannons should catch the toss off guard if you can get them quick enough. Not quite on topic but this happened to me in a 2v2, double toss cannon wall trapping us both in our bases. I expanded with the scout and fast teched to nydus to stop them expanding and snipe production buildings. They were actaully very bad players as they over commited and then didn't expand for a long time after i denyed the first couple of attempts | ||
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Tvk
Latvia62 Posts
On May 24 2011 12:49 McGuire72 wrote: Honestly none of these answers really help. I have been having a lot of trouble against this lately on maps like Metal and Shattered Temple. If you scout the forge first in time, I think my/your best bet is to block the ramp with a drone on patrol, but if you're unfortunate and scout this late, and you went hatch first, you're going to usually be getting your screen centered on your base usually just in time to see that goddamn probe throwing down three pylons at once, and then you're basically screwed and have to cancel the Hatch. The idea that your can just pull three drones and repel this is absolutely laughable. And all this non-sense about going for a roach all-in cuz the protoss will be at a tech disadvantage is freaking ridiculous. By the time you've got enough roaches to break out of your base, you're so far behind economically that your ONLY option is to go all-in. Unfortunately by this point the toss has cannoned himself in on two bases and you're still on one. Macro up? You're susceptible to basically any timing attack the toss wants to throw at you. Drops? Good luck cuz you're behind a base and he will simply outproduce you. Honestly the only thing you can do right now (and from watching pros' streams I think I'm right about this) is go 14 pool and expand around 21. If the toss went forge first you're going to be ahead in economy and tech shortly anyway and can play a standard macro game from there. If you do go hatch first, it should only be on maps like xel naga where you have a 100% scouting chance, and I would send my drone around 9 to see if he's going forge first, in which case you HAVE to patrol your ramp to deny pylon blocking. Diamond zerg here so basically a newb I admit, but these are just my thoughts on this cheese so take them for what they're worth. I guess you described my topic even better then I. To illustrate heres some pictures: Thats what happened after going 15 hatch, i saw him trying to cannon mine expo, however he managed to make pylon cage and thats how the game looked after some 4 drone/cannon wars: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://a.yfrog.com/img151/3038/screenshot2011052414270.jpg) And thats how game looks after: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://a.yfrog.com/img830/6733/screenshot2011052414284.jpg) And yeh I play on EU region, just with russian client | ||
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Poopfeast
160 Posts
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Tvk
Latvia62 Posts
On May 24 2011 21:22 Unfeared wrote: Don't 15 hatch but use a speedling expand build. Follow the scouting probe with a drone. "Don't go hatch first" for me it more sounds like "Go play terran" srsly. (((Funny how game "evolved". Now protoss can go expo b4 gate, while zerg have to make pool lol. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
what I mostly do is droning up and getting a fast Queen, put down a Hatch and cancel it at the Ramp and put down a Tumor and a Spine-Crawler. Then get maybe a Macro-Hatch and Drone up and take the Expansion as soon as the wall-in is gone. Another way of dealing with it is sneaking a hidden expansion, but of course you need to have a Drone out on the Map for that. All-in's, 1 base-Tech and Baneling-busts shouldn't really work against a decent player and waiting for Drop of Nydus before getting a second base is just nothing but an all-in... | ||
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meiloAUT
Austria41 Posts
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McGuire72
Canada140 Posts
...hopefully Blizzard puts the supply depots at the bottom of ramps like on the GSL maps sooner or later to prevent this. | ||
zatic
Zurich15325 Posts
On May 24 2011 12:49 McGuire72 wrote: Honestly none of these answers really help. I have been having a lot of trouble against this lately on maps like Metal and Shattered Temple. If you scout the forge first in time, I think my/your best bet is to block the ramp with a drone on patrol, but if you're unfortunate and scout this late, and you went hatch first, you're going to usually be getting your screen centered on your base usually just in time to see that goddamn probe throwing down three pylons at once, and then you're basically screwed and have to cancel the Hatch. The idea that your can just pull three drones and repel this is absolutely laughable. And all this non-sense about going for a roach all-in cuz the protoss will be at a tech disadvantage is freaking ridiculous. By the time you've got enough roaches to break out of your base, you're so far behind economically that your ONLY option is to go all-in. Unfortunately by this point the toss has cannoned himself in on two bases and you're still on one. Macro up? You're susceptible to basically any timing attack the toss wants to throw at you. Drops? Good luck cuz you're behind a base and he will simply outproduce you. Honestly the only thing you can do right now (and from watching pros' streams I think I'm right about this) is go 14 pool and expand around 21. If the toss went forge first you're going to be ahead in economy and tech shortly anyway and can play a standard macro game from there. If you do go hatch first, it should only be on maps like xel naga where you have a 100% scouting chance, and I would send my drone around 9 to see if he's going forge first, in which case you HAVE to patrol your ramp to deny pylon blocking. Diamond zerg here so basically a newb I admit, but these are just my thoughts on this cheese so take them for what they're worth. This is pretty much answering the thread, thank you. | ||
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
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Mcawesome
11 Posts
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ElPeque.fogata
Uruguay462 Posts
If he is cannon rush/expanding, try to make a hatch at his natural with your scouting drone. It shouldn't put yourself more behind than he put you, at least in terms of minerals. 3 pylons to block the ramp + 1 cannon is more expensive than a hatchery. You force him to put cannons in his own base to kill the hatch as soon as possible. And let it complete. It will also spread creep which will delay his expo even longer. Use the broodlings to kill the probe just waiting to build the nexus or to scout his base. And you are going roaches, so you may be even able to spawn a roach or two before the hatch goes down. If at all, his units will be a couple zealots, so you may be able to even kill some drones. You may even be able to get a drone, and if the cannons hitting the hatch are far enough, you may be able to put an evo chamber blocking the nexus further but outside the range of the cannons. If you are counterattacking, you may be able to time it so the attack is supported by the broodlings. Shenannigans ftw! All this is absolutely gimmicky, but it wins me a game once in a while .Edit: More ideas. Get a second queen asap. You will want to creep to the ramp so as to advance a spine to kill the blocking "for free", without skipping any inject (only 1 hatch!!). And should you take a quick 3rd, you will need the creep highway to it to avoid losing it to the first voidray. Getting the gold and then the natural may be a nice idea. He is not coming out soon, just watch out for voidrays. | ||
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lSasquatchl
United States309 Posts
I think I have lost once to this opening. Taking Day[9]'s advice about just letting the cannon rush happen. He mentioned it in one of his recent dailies before he left for Korea. I think it was the one about Zerg scouting. You might give this strategy a try and see how it works for you. I assume the 2nd OV was in position to spot it happening. If not, it should be as preventing the damage is 100% more important then preventing them from going up IMO. Wait as long as possible to cancel your hatch, to force as more cannons down below. Get a gas and your pool as soon as possible, and re-build your hatch inside your base. And drone until 19-20. When pool finishes drop a spine to prevent cannons on high ground and build a queen. First 25 to creep tumor and the rest to larva. Use spine to take out the vunerable pylons or cannons, which ever are in range on low ground. at 24 gas drop evo chamber: when it finishes you'll have 100 gas (start +1 melee) Next 100 gas to speed and pull drones to maximize minerals. Spread creep to prevent more cannons and pylons and also provide a perimeter to take out other powering pylons 2 total queens 1 for each hatch and produce non-stop lings. While the spine is taking out the pylons that are powering the cannons. Then go attack. I will use you last screen shot as a reference. You should be able to break out with the spine and be attack before this time in-game. Make sure your lings are attacking his building and not tripping out trying to attack a cannon they can't reach. He won't be able to bulid any units to stop you so he we have to build more cannons. And likely will as soon as he sees the influx of lings go past his unpowered cannons (make sure to shift click past and then attack move to not waste time) I this case he could build 2 more cannons, but wouldn't be done in time before alot of damage is done. On this map I like to send 7 lings to the rocks that go into his 3rd. 7 is about max that can attack rocks from 1 side. Shift click to que your 7 lings to attack the next set of rocks after they are finished with the first set while you keep rallying lings to his front. Keep spewing larva and macro and should be no problem. Sorry for the longwinded reply, but this has worked for me every single game this happens to me. If you give it a try let me know how it goes. Again, I am just High-Diamond so...take it for what it is worth. | ||
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displaced
22 Posts
Hatchery finishes, Z makes lings from it and rallies them to P's base. 6-8 lings will delay his economy, and once speed kicks in it will really hinder it. even if he reacts by dropping gateways to try to complete wall, your lings will still be able to break it before it can finish. 3 pylons + 2/3 cannons is quite costly and it means he has no army back at home. meanwhile, Z prepares for a baneling bust on the wall at his nat. in the aftermath, at worst Z is on even footing. this is assuming you have decent micro and multitasking (since you're mid masters, this shouldn't be too hard). at this point the zerg was either making drones and expanding or preparing for an allin. even when the zealot comes out, it will never catch speedlings so the Z still ends up sniping probes. this initial swarm is so devastating P often loses a lot of mining time and probes with it. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
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