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On May 15 2011 04:10 0c3LoT wrote:Interesting, I have a fairly similar build for TvZ, didn't know it was common @ pro levels though. Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 01:18 vaderseven wrote:On May 14 2011 18:56 MockHamill wrote:
Thank you for the guide! I will try to practice this build since I am horrible at TvZ, that match-up got me dropped from Diamond to Plat. One problem I have when I do a 1 or 2 rax expand is dying to the countepush. I push early, he repels the push, meanwhile I expand and put up a bunker as defense.
I then assume that they will drone up but he just invests everything in ling/bling and roll over my expansion so I lose even though my economy is 50% better. Having hellions early may solve this since it is easier to see if they are droning up or not. Try to NOT lose too many marines early on. Get a bunker up while you pressure and sim city your natural. Check the replays in the OP that are attributed to Jinro for some good Sim City. IF you feel like he is going to do some kind of 2 base all in you should add in bunkers and maybe go straight to siege tanks instead of hellions. That is all situational though. Play around with different reactions to different scouting. On May 14 2011 20:31 Daniel C wrote:
Fantastic guide, I've been doing this build in low masters but lately I've been struggling a lot. Hopefully I can use some of the tips to improve my play. Some comments and questions follow.
1. Why do you only move out @ 6 hellions? Wouldn't you head out with the first 2 to take the towers and force lings?
2. What is your thought on reactor swapping your first rax to get 3x hellion production?
3. Against Spanishiwa style, I find that a weakness is that you can't control their insane creep spread compared to say fast medivacs and marines clearing creep. I find that it makes your hellions less effective and more easily killed by lings.
4. I've played several zergs who go straight to ultras after opening with upgraded speedling / infestor. How do you counter this unit combination?
Thanks alot! 1. Because at the 6th hellion blue flame finshes. On a 1 rax build this is around 8:20. That a perfect time to take map control because it really pressures the zerg when he wants to power hard / take a 3rd / tech up. 2. I think that makes your build transition into a different style. Might be nice if you are going for what philibird mentioned. 3. Blue flamers at 8:20 followed by a fast 3rd base of your own will really do well vs a Spanishiwa style. 4. I counter ultras by have a large push when my 4th tank pops out. It will really hammer them hard as I take my own 3rd. I try to go a bit marauder heavy if possible but in general medic/marine/tank is decent vs ultras. The real counter to Ultras is good macro/micro (imo). There's no reason why you should wait for 6 hellions to push out. Use your first 1-2 to take the Xel'nagas, gain map control, and most importantly, for scouting. You need those first hellions out on the map, poking at his natural to make sure he isn't doing some kind of Roach timing push. If he does you need to drop bunkers immediately and get ready to pull SCVs for repair. The key IMO to stopping the Spanishiwa build creep spread is to immediately start denying his tumors when you get your hellions out on the map (yes, with scans). I don't think a lot of players realize how effective denying creep spread early game really is.
If you build the factories right as your first 100 then second 100 gas accumulate and then start a tech lab right as factory one finishes, start blue flame asap, and have constant hellion production, you will have 6 hellions when the upgrade finishes. I find it nice to hold back till then because suddenly showing 6 blue flames right a timing when he needs to be greedy is a really powerful tool.
Stopping the creep spread of spanishiwa using scans is a bad idea. He has ~4 queens and 2 hatches. He has free creep spread. Use your mules and just abuse the fact that his tech is late and he invested into imobile defense and take a fast 3rd. its better to just deny morphing tumors with the blue flamers to halt the progression of the creep.
In general, denying creep earlier is better but vs spanishiwa you are playing into his hands if you are trading mules for tumors.
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On May 15 2011 05:46 Bleak wrote:
I actually do something similar to this, but I start my expo as I move out with my first 3-4 helions (which is when the blue flame upgrade finishes) Can you tell me which variation is better? I like to scout and see whats going on before going for a that FE (if hes going for a roach rush etc)
A double factory 1 rax before CC is going to leave you very invested into the early game. Its on you to do damage going that path.
I personally suggest you go with a 2 rax FE or 1 rax FE depending on which you like more! Try both! Check the replays and vods out to find out which looks better for you!
There is no BEST variation. Your opener you settle on will be better vs some openings he does and worse vs others. You can try to base the opening off of maps but even that isn't full proof (far from it even!).
Do a 1 or 2 rax fe, pressure with some marines, figure out his goals, and then adapt.
On May 15 2011 04:29 0c3LoT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 16:13 vaderseven wrote:On May 14 2011 12:53 PhiliBiRD wrote:
ive been doing this build in 90% of my tvzs for the past 6 weeks or so.
only difference is i make hellions all game This is a 100% awesome and valid variation on this. Its great vs muta/ling/bling. Its great in its on way vs infestor play. I find it a bit less intuitive and a bit more counterable than the tank/marine/medivak transition. I wrote this guide with the intent of making a guide that is like what I would teach in a lesson to a gold-diamond player that was wanting to learn a standard style for TvZ that he could mass game with. Variations like that are solid but not at the same level for teaching? I don't know how to say it 100% but it just doesn't offer as much as a learning tool as tank/marine/med control does. How do you figure? I don't see a good reason for stopping Hellion production at any time when using this style. Marine/tank/med, and BF hellions to flank or counter actually requires a pretty good amount of control.
That sounds like a fine later transition but if you are talking about on 2 or 3 base I just don't see you being able to get the critical mass of tanks OR blue flamers needed to make them effective. 6 tanks is way more effective than (more than 100% more effective) than 3 tanks. With 2 factories its harder to make what you describe work.
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I know this really depends on what the zerg did, but generally, when do you find is the best time to push? This is the biggest problem for me..what is a good critical tank amount amount to do damage/apply enough pressure
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Great guide, thanks for the work because it's helping a lot in games and i just recently got promoted because of it.
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On May 15 2011 15:11 CrayonKing wrote:
I know this really depends on what the zerg did, but generally, when do you find is the best time to push? This is the biggest problem for me..what is a good critical tank amount amount to do damage/apply enough pressure
You can base it off of HIM or off of YOU.
If you base it off of you, try pushing at 4 tanks or 6 tanks.
If you base it off of him, try to actively scout with the hellions. When his 3rd base is like 50% done is a great time to move out. You dont want to push before his 3rd base starts really and you don't want to push after it "kicks in." By kicking in, I mean he has it saturated for a good 30 seconds or so. After it kicks in he will be so much stronger rather suddenly.
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adding these replays I found watching reps today -
+ Show Spoiler +http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=8303 (Drewbie doing a standard 2 rax into a cute adaptation for typoon peaks vertical positions | features a hellion marine attack instead of map control style hellion usage, a good viable variation to know about) http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=8205 (QXC doing a super agro 2 rax into a 3 base "turtle push")
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Yes this is appreciated 
If he went for infestor play, you will want your tanks to be more bunched up and to be more on the leading side of the force. It can sometimes be good to even allow the tanks, if positioning allows, to be the threating element that forces the fight. If you let marines become bunched up and ahead of tanks they will get fungaled and they will die.
Can you clarify? Why would you want to bunch up your tanks if you could spread them while keeping them ahead?
Also I think it would be great to mention a simple tip for dropping; drop the units between mineral patches or between geysers, as it is much easier than dropping them on the side and then stimming in, which may be riskier. There are pros and cons to this but I find it very useful unless you're going to pay 100% attention to it or have enough APM to while keeping perfect macro and decent micro everywhere else.
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Nice guide to easily one of the best TvZ builds. The fast expand keeps up with the zerg economy and the pressure from the hellions keep you safe from anything but the heaviest of roach all-ins til muta come around.
I tend to deviate to a 1rax 1fact expand (expand as the 4marine + hellion push moves out) occasionally in order to get the hellions out faster. I feel like I'm not particularly safe against a zerg until I have the harassment units out, considering I'm pumping off of only 1 rax. Is this a justified way of thinking, or will the bunkers at the natural hold a 2base baneling bust?
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How would you play this build against the Spanishiwa build?
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What I have trouble with is that "insane" broodlord corrupter push that comes mid game after they wipe up your other units. I just get raped by it.
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On May 16 2011 02:48 shifty wrote:
What I have trouble with is that "insane" broodlord corrupter push that comes mid game after they wipe up your other units. I just get raped by it.
I will add a section on how to deal with this.
On May 15 2011 19:15 ThaSlayer wrote:
How would you play this build against the Spanishiwa build?
I will add a section on how to deal with this as it is a common question. I have answered it in the thread if you check my replies though.
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As a new player I really appreciate guides like this, so thank you! There are not enough guides on the simple builds such as this and 1/1/1 so it makes learning them a bit harder.
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a guid for standard terran play, thanks a LOT. But i have a question, what do you do on tal darim? opening wise, hellion builds seem to be the only option if you want to put pressure on. Or are you equal if you just FE as well?
+ Show Spoiler +tvp and tvt standard plays would be awesome as well <3
also what is you opinion about the 9:00 timing attack? I always thought of that as the standard tvz thing to do 
also, what to do if he has roaches before you have hellions, as a response to your 2rax. Skip hellions altogether?
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This looks a lot like the qxc standard TvZ build, where he goes 11 rax, 12 rax, expand, transition to BF hellions and goes mech.How you deal with Hyper Agressive zergs like when qxc lost to July on NASL?
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Thank you so much for taking the time to write all this out! I've been looking forever for a guide to the standard marine/tank and this really answered all my questions. Now off to roast some zergs 
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I want to agree with all the thanks people have given you, this guide has sincerely helped my play and I am glad you added it.
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On May 15 2011 04:10 0c3LoT wrote:
There's no reason why you should wait for 6 hellions to push out. Use your first 1-2 to take the Xel'nagas, gain map control, and most importantly, for scouting. You need those first hellions out on the map, poking at his natural to make sure he isn't doing some kind of Roach timing push. If he does you need to drop bunkers immediately and get ready to pull SCVs for repair.
The key IMO to stopping the Spanishiwa build creep spread is to immediately start denying his tumors when you get your hellions out on the map (yes, with scans). I don't think a lot of players realize how effective denying creep spread early game really is.
The problem with clearing towers with 2 hellions is that you show him you have hellions. If he knows that you're going for 2 fac bfh, he knows that there won't be any tanks out until you've made enough hellions. You will also probably lose any chance of catching the Zergs drones off guard and roasting 20 of them. You can just as easily take 2 or 3 marines and clear the towers with those. A creep tumor takes 6 hellion shots to kill. 2 hellions will kill them very slowly and you'll just waste scans. You can scout in other ways, if you really have to do it.
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On June 02 2011 16:18 Sotamursu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 04:10 0c3LoT wrote:
There's no reason why you should wait for 6 hellions to push out. Use your first 1-2 to take the Xel'nagas, gain map control, and most importantly, for scouting. You need those first hellions out on the map, poking at his natural to make sure he isn't doing some kind of Roach timing push. If he does you need to drop bunkers immediately and get ready to pull SCVs for repair.
The key IMO to stopping the Spanishiwa build creep spread is to immediately start denying his tumors when you get your hellions out on the map (yes, with scans). I don't think a lot of players realize how effective denying creep spread early game really is.
The problem with clearing towers with 2 hellions is that you show him you have hellions. If he knows that you're going for 2 fac bfh, he knows that there won't be any tanks out until you've made enough hellions. You will also probably lose any chance of catching the Zergs drones off guard and roasting 20 of them. You can just as easily take 2 or 3 marines and clear the towers with those. A creep tumor takes 6 hellion shots to kill. 2 hellions will kill them very slowly and you'll just waste scans. You can scout in other ways, if you really have to do it.
Good tip on the creep tumor - 6 hellions would make clearing creep tumors with hellions viable because you can one-shot them
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I love this build I am a Master Terran and this build improved my T v Z alot!
Thanks...
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Great guide!
Been using this build in every TvZ in Gold. I Have a few questions:
1) Regarding the early game pressure: What do you think of doing a 1 rax reaper expand and using the reaper to poke instead of a few marines before you transition into the 2 factory BF Hellion?
2) Regarding the push: What do you think of delaying the Starport tech in favour of getting earlier Bio and Mech upgrades, then getting the starport and 3rd base only when you push to contain the Zerg? Once he's contained with the upgraded Marine-Tank combo you can start using Medivac drops to take out bases the hellions have scouted. Also, what time do you usually aim to push?
3) In at least 3 of my past few TvZs the Zerg went Infestor-Broodlord-Corruptor-Roach instead of Ling-Muta-Baneling. I was taken aback by it as they were all on 3 bases at most. Is that common Zerg play and is it something that needs to be taken into account regarding the build? Switching to Viking production seemed to be enough to win me 2 of those 3 games, though the brood lords did a lot of damage.
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EPT
