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Overview
This is an extremely common flow to the Terran vs Zerg matchup. The idea behind the opening is to balance pressure and map control. Your choice of how much pressure you apply in the early game will contribute to when you gain map control. More pressure will mean later control.
The most basic look of it is Barracks (1 or 2), Command Center, Gas x2, Factory x2, tech lab on one Factory into tank marine Medivak.
This build is an excellent go to method of playing the matchup because it is flexible and plays to both the strengths of Terran in the matchup and to the longer game. This means that you can use this guide in order to learn to play a non gimmicky macro game.
I wanted to write this guide because I know it is such a common style at the higher levels but there is a lack of guides on TL to help out Terran players who do not have a solid macro style. This is a macro style for any Terran wanting to practice good mechanics in TvZ. This is intended for a Gold - Diamond level player to use in order to learn some solid macro play. A masers or higher player could use this guide if he wanted to learn this style but I would encourage any player with a decent skill set to not use guides and instead just use the source replays!
ABOUT ME - I am a masters Terran player on the NA server. I have been in masters since the league was introduced and was in diamond from the release of the game on. I ended the last season with 3400 points and between 400 and 500 bonus pool (bnet bugged out and says 0 when I check last season and I am WAY to lazy to do the record digging through something like sc2 ranks to figure out the exact number). I am currently with team iMBa and was formerly with team StratYk before it disbanded. I was a C level Zerg player in SC1. I am by no means top pro level and have much to learn in this game but I know enough to pass on a guide that can help learning players. I hope it is appreciated!
The (example) Opening Build(s)
+ Show Spoiler +--1 Rax Pressure Expand Variation--
10 Supply
12 Rax (Constant Marines)
14 Supply (Complete wall-in)
15 Orbital Command
20 Command Center
*Poke with 1-2 SCVs and 4 marines when 4th marine done, try to keep them alive and pull back after making the pressure felt
Gas
Gas
Bunker in natural during Pressure
Factory (hellions after tech lab)
Gas
Factory (hellions)
Tech Lab on Rax (Stim)
Tech Lab on Factory #1(Blue Flame)
2x Barracks (at 50% blueflame)
2x Reactors on Barracks
Tech Lab 2nd Factory when Blue Flame done
Starport
Engineering Bay
Gas
Command Center
Armory
2nd Engineering Bay
--2 Rax Pressure Expand Variation--
10 Supply
12 Rax
14 Rax
*Be aggressive. I am not going to go into a long discussion of 2 Rax aggression here. It is not the point of this guide.
Command Center @ 400 minerals
Gas
Gas
Bunker in natural during Pressure
Factory (hellions after tech lab)
Gas
Factory (hellions)
Tech Lab on Rax (Stim)
Tech Lab on Factory #1(Blue Flame)
Barracks (at 50% blueflame)
2x Reactors on Barracks
Tech Lab 2nd Factory when Blue Flame done
Starport
Engineering Bay
Gas
Command Center
Armory
2nd Engineering Bay
These builds are just examples. There is many ways to play out the opening. You can vary the number of marines before expand with both 1 rax and 2 rax versions, you can play play with cutting a few SCVs or not cutting a few SCVs in order to get the rax(s) faster, or you could get the Command Center before any marines or barracks. A set build order is not really required to define this style of play, you should of course work one up, but there is no single way to play this out.
The Flow of the Macro and Micro
+ Show Spoiler +The key ideas are to expand, have some marines, and place down two gas right after starting the command center. You will make Factory #1 and #2 as soon as you have the gas. You will make a tech lab on the first factory as soon as it is done and start blue flame when that is done. As blue flame is researching you will round out your production base by adding enough rax to support your 2 factory mid game (usually a total of 3 to 4 barracks) When you have 6 to 8 Hellions with blue flame (6 being the most common seen) you will use the hellions to go take map control. Add a tech lab to the 2nd factory as blue flame finishes and go into two factory tanks with Medivaks and marines. As you take a 3rd base add the armory and 2nd Engineering bay for upgrades, reactor the Starport, add a few more barracks and another factory, and then start another Command Center. This style favors aggressive expanding as the game progresses. Don’t ask is it safe to expand right now and then expand. Instead, ask is there any reason I know of right now NOT to expand and if you have none then expand.
Early game marine (1 Rax) micro: When going 1 rax the goal of any aggression is to simply kill any free targets and make your presence on the map known. The Zerg will respond by making units. Ideally, you retreat very quickly after killing 1 or 2 free targets so that you can avoid a fight that you will lose.
-Early game marine (2 Rax) micro: Someone told me a long time ago (I wish I could recall who) that a key idea in 2 rax is that when you have 1 or 2 marines you are just poking and not committing. Once you have 3 marines you are attacking. Stutter step micro is very important and should be done. Your aggression can continue until speed is done. Once speed is done, most marines not in bunkers will die quickly and it will become impossible to keep bunkers up forever. If you decide to bunker, consider abusing walls/cliffs and tucking marines into corners to minimize space, placing bunkers far away and leap frogging forward so that you can cover your approach safely, and/or getting a bunker up in range of his ramp/hatchery as these are the locations that cause the most damage to the Zerg's game plan. The micro requirements and multitasking requirements of 2 rax openings are much greater than 1 rax openings (do not forget to macro [depots, scvs, marines, and make that Command center!!!] while doing all the micro that is needed.
-Blue Flame hellion map control: Clear out towers with the blue flamers. Check bases for his 3rd. If, AND ONLY IF, you see an opening that screams YOU CAN KILL 20 DRONES RIGHT NOW should you run into his base to kill drones. Losing the hellions is a huge blow to your ability to apply a passive threat to the Zerg. Losing the hellions weakens your first push. Once he has mutalisk or roaches out, your map control will begin to weaken and will likely be shifted back to the Zerg (more so with mutas as you can out run roaches and stay on the map to keep scouting / denying ling spotters). Do note that if you do see an opening that looks like you can roast 20+ drones you actually should take him up on it as it means he is countering your map control hellions by just powering as if they are not a threat. This is just as dangerous as if you let them all die for nothing.
-If he goes for a muta timing, your hellions should scout it as he will probably be forced to use them to clear you away from the 3rd base he wants. If you see he is going for some kind of lair tech muta timing you will want to put turrets up. As the turrets go up, position your marines into 2 different groups. One should cover the obvious entry path into your main (entry by AIR) and the other should cover your rally point/natural. Once turrets are up he will be forced to go for a mass muta style or find holes in your turret placement in order to harass effectively. This will free your marines up to spot cover holes that he finds as you place up additional turrets and to join your main army
-Marine/Tank/Medivak push and positioning: You will want to begin being aggressive, usually, when you have 4 to 6 tanks and he has taken or is trying to take a 3rd base. If you do not have turrets up by the time you are almost ready to move out and you do not know 100% that he doesn't have some kind of late muta timing coming, it might be time to put up some blind turrets. The goal of this first push is to gain a position that allows you to threaten his 3rd base. You want to have tanks covering small groups of bio that run out to attack a base in way that forces the Zerg to attack your position. Use the Terran to limit his approaches. It is hard to define with words what a good position is so pay extremely close attention in replays/vods to where pro Terrans set them selves up. Its one of the best things you can pick up in a replay/vod of this style. As a general rule, if he went for muta play you want your marines to cover the tanks by being spread out and tanks in the middle (also spread). As the banelings approach you run your marines away from the banes towards/past the tanks and then spread the marines out. While the marines run you target fire the tanks at groups of banelings. The marines will then help to clean up zerglings and mutas. If he went for infestor play, you will want your tanks to be more bunched up and to be more on the leading side of the force. It can sometimes be good to even allow the tanks, if positioning allows, to be the threating element that forces the fight. If you let marines become bunched up and ahead of tanks they will get fungaled and they will die. In the fights, target fire the tanks onto infestors first and banelings 2nd. In all cases, no matter what he went for, try to have your marines pre spread as you take positions and be prepared to run marines, target fire tanks, and split marines on a moments notice.
-Drops: Try to drop far from his ability to stop a drop and try to drop while establishing a position for your push. The drop will occuply his focus and allow you more time to set that position up. The only import things to actually doing the drop is getting the drop ship there, stiming the unloaded marines, and retreating. If he went for muta play or has a large army, try to drop a base far from the mutas (you see the mutas at one side of the map then drop the other side). If he went for infestor play then you can actually drop pretty much any base. Its a good idea to establish a position that "cuts" into the enemy's expansion pattern (if he has 3 bases push in a way that threatens the middle base) and then drop the base farthest from his main. If he went infestor it can be good to do a drop like that and then drop any remaining hellions into his main and roast drones. As the late game begins to come closer it becomes more and more important to push and drop at the same time. Drops can also be used to deny far bases that he tries to get. The key with drops is not to over focus on them, choose your drop targets wisely, and to abuse the fact that he will have to use alot more apm/focus to deal with the drop than you have to use to accomplish it. Use drops as cover for gaining the position that your push needs or to cover a timing where you feel weak or to cover taking an aggressively positioned expansion.
Why it Works
+ Show Spoiler +Terran bio units are effective in small numbers by themselves and Terran factory units increase in effectiveness the more you have. With that in mind we can be aggressive while expanding because a small bio force is cost effective and provides scouting information to ensure safety. The quick expansion makes it easy to support two factories very quickly which allows us to reach those critical numbers of factory units needed in order to be powerful in the mid game. Beyond the early mid game we will be adding upgrades and production and aggressively expanding which places direct pressure onto the Zerg. The blue flame hellion transition allows us to cheaply and effecivly threaten the Zerg while gaining map control. This allows us to scout out his 3rd base timing and choice of mid game tech. It nicely covers the gap from bio expand into tank/marine/medivak.
The Idea of Threat
+ Show Spoiler +Something I did not understand at a level of “feeling it” until I played a lot ZvT was how blind playing Zerg feels. Everything they do is based off of some specific scouting times and map control. I am pretty sure every Terran of any reasonable caliber understands that a Zerg will react to scouting and most understand, at least intellectually, that the Zerg will react to anything he sees via his map control.
What most Terran players don’t appreciate is that playing Zerg can often times feel like you are about to be attacked around every corner at any time. The simplest way to see this is to play a TvZ and save up marines until you have around 8 or so and then just go clear out every watchtower on the map and come back home. Watch the replay from the Zerg point of view and watch what he does. If one did this a couple times he would inevitably run into a game where the Zerg player reacts by killing this group of marines before it returns home. A key aspect of Zerg play and this idea of threat can now be gleamed. In a game where a force uses its power to contest map control, harass, or attack, and survives and goes back into the fog of war, the Zerg player will be scared. He will make units. He doesn’t know if another attack is coming from a new direction or if an even larger push is about to emerge. His reaction time to the next attack, push, or harass will be slower because he will most likely have less vision. If he kills whatever was on the map or in his face, he will feel safe and know that he has solved the near future problems he might face. He will not feel threatened.
A well played Terran vs Zerg should leave the Zerg feeling like he could be attacked from any point at any point in time with no warning. He should be living in the dark and scared shitless of it. He should never know where the next attack is coming from and he should not your army is moving to next.
Keep in mind this idea of threat at all times. When you have power you should be moving your army out and it should keep mobile. An army camping in one known spot is not a threat, it is a target. Part of the nature of Zerg is that they can actually do well when they know where and how big an enemy is. They do awful when they lack either piece of information and they tend to fold when they know neither. If you clear his scouts keep your units alive and retreat. If you do a push don’t let your attention wander and the push camp a spot. If your push kills something get out and leave or move farther in. Simple ideas but they are oh so crucial for this matchup!
Different Openings
+ Show Spoiler +Depending on the opening you use and the opening he uses you will enter the mid game with no certainty of an advantage. A 2 rax vs a speedling expand will not be favorable for you while an extremely aggressive 2 rax (double rax on 11 food for instance) will favor you heavily. This is not something you can gather from anything inside the game and you will have to guess or metagame (educated guessing) a decision and just go with it and react. Take into account the map, starting locations, anything you might know about the player (a read on the enemy) or roll a handy die. If one style seems to favor your strengths then you can make that your go-to style that you don’t deviate from unless some kind of metagame (It’s a bo7 and he went pool first every game so far so maybe I won’t 2 rax him) reason not too. This guide can’t really help you to figure out the best way to open into this style.
Drawbacks
+ Show Spoiler +-Losing all of your marines while pressuring if you do not cause serious damage and/or he has a large Zergling/speedling count can spell disaster.
-Losing all of your blue flame hellions shortly after sending them onto the map can mean that the zerg is free to power extremely hard and have an insanely powerful lair tech mid game vs you.
-This build transitions best into a Tank/Marine/Medivak style of play. This style is very macro heavy (marines make pretty quickly), requires you to multitask in the later game (drops + push + defending etc) and will have intense game deciding battles that are over in less than 5 seconds and require sometimes difficult and precise micro. [Note: This is why I teach this build in lessons currently, it helps you to become a better player by simply doing what the build means to do!] [If you macro correctly in the later stages of the game, you will be making something like 30 marines, 3-4 Tanks, and 2-3 Medivaks every 60 seconds ; that’s a lot of macro! You will also be mutli prong dropping, pushing, and defending. Excited yet?]
Deviations
+ Show Spoiler +Vs Mass Muta - Focus on upgrades and get thors into the mix asap.
[More To Come as Thread Progresses]
Key Notes
+ Show Spoiler +-Marine Pressure is valid until Zergling speed is done. Zergling speed will be done 3 minutes (or so) after his gas is done.
-You will have to deviate from any set build you have in mind if you scout extremely heavy 1 base play (need this be said even?)
-Blue Flame hellions are used to deny him map control and MAYBE deny him an easy 3rd. It is more important to not lose the hellions than it is to kill a single unit with them.
-Be flexible with the timing of an engineering bay if you feel like he will have faster mutas. Keep in mind that a pool first opening will actually have the potential to tech faster than a hatch first opening.
-Broodlord Tech switches can be brutal and game ending if not scouted or anticipated. Infestor play means a hive isn’t that hard to the zerg to reach so you should be looking for Hive tech (scans or fly by scouting etc) and if the game has reached even 15 minutes and he has not gone for some kind of extremely vested lair tech level play (massive Mutalisk count or extremely large roach/bling count) then you should EXPECT some kind hive tech and search it out. Vikings or ghosts are the best answers.
-Keep your end game goal in mind of 3/3 bio and 3/0 tanks with the power of either ghosts or Vikings vs Broodlords and the power of drops to attack his focus. Always be working in some way towards that endgame.
-DROPS: Dont stare at unloading drop ships, its a waste of time. When dropping the minimap is your only tool. Use it to know when a drop arrives so you can zoom there shortly after and stim and target fire (if needed) and use it to known when to retreat.
-The lynch pin of this entire build/style is the blue flame hellions. They are fast, dangerous, and cheap. They allow us to transition from the early game into tank/marine/medivak and enter that stage of the game on even footing.
Replays and VODs
+ Show Spoiler +
Other Resources
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202592 This is infinity's guide on how to "design" a build order and you can apply the ideas in it to refine this build into something that you can really use. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195389 This is Plexa's guide on how to learn from your replays. A combination of the ideas in that thread and the build in this thread can lead you to become a much better player very quickly. It will become a matter of time and hard work. Watch every lose you experience playing this build with these concepts and you will surely become a better player.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina72 Posts
First of all, thank you for an excellent thread! 
Now, to ask a couple of things..
Ive been doing a 1 rax FE that Nada used in some GSL game which is almost the same except for the fact that he added 2 raxes after the CC and right before he takes double gas.
The blue flame is slightly delayed but the marine count really gets solid early on and it allows a nice marine hellion push while you start producing tanks.
Do you have any thoughts regarding that variation?
Also, as you stated getting overeager and losing your marines or hellions for nothing is bad.
But what do you think of fairly even trades early on.. do they maybe favour the T or the Z?
For example killing some lings and drones but eventually losing your units in the process.
And finally, do you consider any additional variations if you scout that the Z is doing spanishiwa's no gas style?
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I think this build might be vulnerable to both some fast roach pressure and some hatch-tech baneling busts with only 1 rax. How do you complete your wall-off at your natural if you only have 1 rax? or do you build the factories even before you move out your second OC?
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On May 13 2011 09:20 MoreFaSho wrote:
I think this build might be vulnerable to both some fast roach pressure and some hatch-tech baneling busts with only 1 rax. How do you complete your wall-off at your natural if you only have 1 rax? or do you build the factories even before you move out your second OC?
If you mean like a 7 roach rush or some other kind of 1 base play then yes. You should scout that and deviate.
If you mean more of a two base play I encouarge you to watch the 12 weeks with bitter VOD with QXC as he faces just that kind of thing. You will be on your back foot as the attack hits but if you hold your ground and had a read on it before it hits so that you can through up some more defense you will do fine. Keep in mind that the less you have at that time means the more of your econ you can afford to lose because you have more econ (meaning a 1 rax FE might lose some SCVs to such an attack but thats ok because you have more SCVs at that timing than you would have with say a 2 rax.
No matter your opening, you should be going straight into 2 factory tanks right after the 6 (sometimes 8) hellions. If you do a 1 rax FE off of 1 marine this means tanks and siege will start around 8:20.
If you are concerned about that kind of play, I highly suggest a 2 rax opening as you will have a higher marine count at the relevant timings (this is what QXC favors again).
On May 13 2011 09:16 Batcha wrote:First of all, thank you for an excellent thread! Now, to ask a couple of things.. Ive been doing a 1 rax FE that Nada used in some GSL game which is almost the same except for the fact that he added 2 raxes after the CC and right before he takes double gas. The blue flame is slightly delayed but the marine count really gets solid early on and it allows a nice marine hellion push while you start producing tanks. Do you have any thoughts regarding that variation? Also, as you stated getting overeager and losing your marines or hellions for nothing is bad. But what do you think of fairly even trades early on.. do they maybe favour the T or the Z? For example killing some lings and drones but eventually losing your units in the process. And finally, do you consider any additional variations if you scout that the Z is doing spanishiwa's no gas style?
1. That variation would seem to trade map control for more pressure. It does not really use the hellions in the same way. It is still a good build though. I don't think it is as "safe" as the style I describe. The style I describe you pressure until speed is out and then you take map control until his lair tech is out. That style is more of a push style less reliant on the map control (or more abusable through its lack of map control).
2. Trades of army for army heavily favor the zerg player. The Terran builds at a fairly set rate and when you lose your army you are saying I have 0 ability to hurt you for X amount of time. Feel free to drone VERY hard or tech VERY hard for X amount of time.
3. If I scout a spanishwa style I rejoice at the lack of tech he is going to have in the early game. I am not afraid of him at all. I will in general place down a 3rd Command Center after I have my 2 factorys running before adding on any more barracks. I tend to place an eng bay right after for upgrades and to allow me to PF this CC. I love to have my 3rd up and morphing into a PF by like 9 minutes vs that style. With that much static D, and that little gas for tech, he just has no real way to punish me for being greedy.
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Great post. I've seen this build used frequently on streams and in tournaments. However, I've noticed that some zergs open roaches and after seeing a BFH transition after a FE they will just 2 base roach all-in. Have you encountered this response very often, and, if so, how do you generally deal with it?
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I try to throw up bunkers and get my tanks out quickly. If you have naked rax up you can tech lab them and/or if you have a tech labbed rax for stim you can start some rauder production.
With the early pressure styles (even a 4 or 5 marine poke off of 1 rax or the much more in your face 2 rax styles) will give you an idea of what he is going for. If you see a small zergling count and multi spines and he did get gas then he is more likely to go roaches. If you see a roach warrren you know what is coming.
If you get the blue flamers out and spot roaches on the map you will have tanks out in time in most cases.
Do keep in mind that you should never do the same build 10 times in a row vs the same person and expect them to not get a read on you. Not saying you couldn't win all 10 games but if he expects this play then expect to see roaches.
If you scout the roaches before you have started hellions OR if you want to blind counter roach play you can just skip the hellions and go straight into 2 factory tanks and do a push around 10 minutes.
Deny scouting at all times as well. Have a few marines ready to stop overlords. If he doesnt see the factory transition and he isn't metagaming you then he will have to either play a middle of the road play or roll the dice.
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On May 13 2011 10:41 Seagull_ wrote:
Great post. I've seen this build used frequently on streams and in tournaments. However, I've noticed that some zergs open roaches and after seeing a BFH transition after a FE they will just 2 base roach all-in. Have you encountered this response very often, and, if so, how do you generally deal with it?
If you caught or can catch the QXC vs JulyZerg NASL matches on May 12th you can see that QXC goes for this build every game. I won't spoil things but I will say that the situation you described comes up.
Regardless of a win or loss (again true neutral tone of no spoiler), it is extremely relevant.
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ive been doing this build in 90% of my tvzs for the past 6 weeks or so.
only difference is i make hellions all game
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the idea of threat section really nails it...
but it requires a lot more apm on T's part to clear the ovie, creep, and lings than for the Z player to replenish it. the Z can easily keep tabs by sending in a suicidal ling (or changeling) into the main army...
in the end, i have seen many good players lose, because they didn't clear the ovies hanging out behind their bases (typically behind the mineral lines off the cliffs), which are then used for nyduses and so forth...
it's hard to completely deny Z vision... they just have so many very cheap and effective tools to watch their opponent...(muta, ling, creep, ovie, changeling)...
but during Z's temporary blindness, say you knock out a few ovies over a few expos... Z will feel uneasy and most likely go on an all-out attack to deny "possible T expansions"... they need to trade armies at some point anyways...
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On May 14 2011 12:53 PhiliBiRD wrote:
ive been doing this build in 90% of my tvzs for the past 6 weeks or so.
only difference is i make hellions all game
This is a 100% awesome and valid variation on this. Its great vs muta/ling/bling. Its great in its on way vs infestor play.
I find it a bit less intuitive and a bit more counterable than the tank/marine/medivak transition. I wrote this guide with the intent of making a guide that is like what I would teach in a lesson to a gold-diamond player that was wanting to learn a standard style for TvZ that he could mass game with. Variations like that are solid but not at the same level for teaching? I don't know how to say it 100% but it just doesn't offer as much as a learning tool as tank/marine/med control does.
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On May 14 2011 13:43 IzieBoy wrote:
the idea of threat section really nails it...
but it requires a lot more apm on T's part to clear the ovie, creep, and lings than for the Z player to replenish it. the Z can easily keep tabs by sending in a suicidal ling (or changeling) into the main army...
in the end, i have seen many good players lose, because they didn't clear the ovies hanging out behind their bases (typically behind the mineral lines off the cliffs), which are then used for nyduses and so forth...
it's hard to completely deny Z vision... they just have so many very cheap and effective tools to watch their opponent...(muta, ling, creep, ovie, changeling)...
but during Z's temporary blindness, say you knock out a few ovies over a few expos... Z will feel uneasy and most likely go on an all-out attack to deny "possible T expansions"... they need to trade armies at some point anyways...
You almost got it. The idea of threat is that the Terran gets to be proactive and when he isn't active (his army sits still) he becomes less threatening. When a Zerg is threatened he will make much worse choices with his larva and economy. It is more apm intensive as far as be active with our units but it is insanely hard decision making wise as the Zerg when the the Terran abuses this concept.
That's the goal. Its not to make it hard APM wise for them. When we are thinking about threat we are thinking about screwing with their decision making. To out APM them we actually need to attack in multiple areas at the same time which is a totally different concept.
When you talk about good players losing because they get scouted, that is actually harder for the zerg to do than it is for the terran to block it. Having played both sides of that hundreds of times since January I can vouch for the fact that scouting as Zerg is hard as hell. I will also say though, on the flip side of that, they can reap the most rewards from scouting. You, as a Terran, should be as afraid of him scouting you well as he is of the unknowns he can't scout.
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Thank you for the guide! I will try to practice this build since I am horrible at TvZ, that match-up got me dropped from Diamond to Plat. One problem I have when I do a 1 or 2 rax expand is dying to the countepush. I push early, he repels the push, meanwhile I expand and put up a bunker as defense.
I then assume that they will drone up but he just invests everything in ling/bling and roll over my expansion so I lose even though my economy is 50% better. Having hellions early may solve this since it is easier to see if they are droning up or not.
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Fantastic guide, I've been doing this build in low masters but lately I've been struggling a lot. Hopefully I can use some of the tips to improve my play. Some comments and questions follow.
1. Why do you only move out @ 6 hellions? Wouldn't you head out with the first 2 to take the towers and force lings?
2. What is your thought on reactor swapping your first rax to get 3x hellion production?
3. Against Spanishiwa style, I find that a weakness is that you can't control their insane creep spread compared to say fast medivacs and marines clearing creep. I find that it makes your hellions less effective and more easily killed by lings.
4. I've played several zergs who go straight to ultras after opening with upgraded speedling / infestor. How do you counter this unit combination?
Thanks alot!
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On May 14 2011 20:31 Daniel C wrote:
Fantastic guide, I've been doing this build in low masters but lately I've been struggling a lot. Hopefully I can use some of the tips to improve my play. Some comments and questions follow.
1. Why do you only move out @ 6 hellions? Wouldn't you head out with the first 2 to take the towers and force lings?
2. What is your thought on reactor swapping your first rax to get 3x hellion production?
3. Against Spanishiwa style, I find that a weakness is that you can't control their insane creep spread compared to say fast medivacs and marines clearing creep. I find that it makes your hellions less effective and more easily killed by lings.
4. I've played several zergs who go straight to ultras after opening with upgraded speedling / infestor. How do you counter this unit combination?
Thanks alot!
Thors and Tanks?
Actually I always thought that
Ghosts, hellions, THORS and tanks works better than meds.
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great guide, great strat.. gj
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On May 14 2011 18:56 MockHamill wrote:
Thank you for the guide! I will try to practice this build since I am horrible at TvZ, that match-up got me dropped from Diamond to Plat. One problem I have when I do a 1 or 2 rax expand is dying to the countepush. I push early, he repels the push, meanwhile I expand and put up a bunker as defense.
I then assume that they will drone up but he just invests everything in ling/bling and roll over my expansion so I lose even though my economy is 50% better. Having hellions early may solve this since it is easier to see if they are droning up or not.
Try to NOT lose too many marines early on. Get a bunker up while you pressure and sim city your natural. Check the replays in the OP that are attributed to Jinro for some good Sim City. IF you feel like he is going to do some kind of 2 base all in you should add in bunkers and maybe go straight to siege tanks instead of hellions. That is all situational though. Play around with different reactions to different scouting.
On May 14 2011 20:31 Daniel C wrote:
Fantastic guide, I've been doing this build in low masters but lately I've been struggling a lot. Hopefully I can use some of the tips to improve my play. Some comments and questions follow.
1. Why do you only move out @ 6 hellions? Wouldn't you head out with the first 2 to take the towers and force lings?
2. What is your thought on reactor swapping your first rax to get 3x hellion production?
3. Against Spanishiwa style, I find that a weakness is that you can't control their insane creep spread compared to say fast medivacs and marines clearing creep. I find that it makes your hellions less effective and more easily killed by lings.
4. I've played several zergs who go straight to ultras after opening with upgraded speedling / infestor. How do you counter this unit combination?
Thanks alot!
1. Because at the 6th hellion blue flame finshes. On a 1 rax build this is around 8:20. That a perfect time to take map control because it really pressures the zerg when he wants to power hard / take a 3rd / tech up.
2. I think that makes your build transition into a different style. Might be nice if you are going for what philibird mentioned.
3. Blue flamers at 8:20 followed by a fast 3rd base of your own will really do well vs a Spanishiwa style.
4. I counter ultras by have a large push when my 4th tank pops out. It will really hammer them hard as I take my own 3rd. I try to go a bit marauder heavy if possible but in general medic/marine/tank is decent vs ultras. The real counter to Ultras is good macro/micro (imo).
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Interesting, I have a fairly similar build for TvZ, didn't know it was common @ pro levels though.
On May 15 2011 01:18 vaderseven wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 18:56 MockHamill wrote:
Thank you for the guide! I will try to practice this build since I am horrible at TvZ, that match-up got me dropped from Diamond to Plat. One problem I have when I do a 1 or 2 rax expand is dying to the countepush. I push early, he repels the push, meanwhile I expand and put up a bunker as defense.
I then assume that they will drone up but he just invests everything in ling/bling and roll over my expansion so I lose even though my economy is 50% better. Having hellions early may solve this since it is easier to see if they are droning up or not. Try to NOT lose too many marines early on. Get a bunker up while you pressure and sim city your natural. Check the replays in the OP that are attributed to Jinro for some good Sim City. IF you feel like he is going to do some kind of 2 base all in you should add in bunkers and maybe go straight to siege tanks instead of hellions. That is all situational though. Play around with different reactions to different scouting. Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 20:31 Daniel C wrote:
Fantastic guide, I've been doing this build in low masters but lately I've been struggling a lot. Hopefully I can use some of the tips to improve my play. Some comments and questions follow.
1. Why do you only move out @ 6 hellions? Wouldn't you head out with the first 2 to take the towers and force lings?
2. What is your thought on reactor swapping your first rax to get 3x hellion production?
3. Against Spanishiwa style, I find that a weakness is that you can't control their insane creep spread compared to say fast medivacs and marines clearing creep. I find that it makes your hellions less effective and more easily killed by lings.
4. I've played several zergs who go straight to ultras after opening with upgraded speedling / infestor. How do you counter this unit combination?
Thanks alot! 1. Because at the 6th hellion blue flame finshes. On a 1 rax build this is around 8:20. That a perfect time to take map control because it really pressures the zerg when he wants to power hard / take a 3rd / tech up. 2. I think that makes your build transition into a different style. Might be nice if you are going for what philibird mentioned. 3. Blue flamers at 8:20 followed by a fast 3rd base of your own will really do well vs a Spanishiwa style. 4. I counter ultras by have a large push when my 4th tank pops out. It will really hammer them hard as I take my own 3rd. I try to go a bit marauder heavy if possible but in general medic/marine/tank is decent vs ultras. The real counter to Ultras is good macro/micro (imo).
There's no reason why you should wait for 6 hellions to push out. Use your first 1-2 to take the Xel'nagas, gain map control, and most importantly, for scouting. You need those first hellions out on the map, poking at his natural to make sure he isn't doing some kind of Roach timing push. If he does you need to drop bunkers immediately and get ready to pull SCVs for repair.
The key IMO to stopping the Spanishiwa build creep spread is to immediately start denying his tumors when you get your hellions out on the map (yes, with scans). I don't think a lot of players realize how effective denying creep spread early game really is.
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On May 14 2011 16:13 vaderseven wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 12:53 PhiliBiRD wrote:
ive been doing this build in 90% of my tvzs for the past 6 weeks or so.
only difference is i make hellions all game This is a 100% awesome and valid variation on this. Its great vs muta/ling/bling. Its great in its on way vs infestor play. I find it a bit less intuitive and a bit more counterable than the tank/marine/medivak transition. I wrote this guide with the intent of making a guide that is like what I would teach in a lesson to a gold-diamond player that was wanting to learn a standard style for TvZ that he could mass game with. Variations like that are solid but not at the same level for teaching? I don't know how to say it 100% but it just doesn't offer as much as a learning tool as tank/marine/med control does.
How do you figure? I don't see a good reason for stopping Hellion production at any time when using this style. Marine/tank/med, and BF hellions to flank or counter actually requires a pretty good amount of control.
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I actually do something similar to this, but I start my expo as I move out with my first 3-4 helions (which is when the blue flame upgrade finishes) Can you tell me which variation is better? I like to scout and see whats going on before going for a that FE (if hes going for a roach rush etc)
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On May 15 2011 04:10 0c3LoT wrote:Interesting, I have a fairly similar build for TvZ, didn't know it was common @ pro levels though. Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 01:18 vaderseven wrote:On May 14 2011 18:56 MockHamill wrote:
Thank you for the guide! I will try to practice this build since I am horrible at TvZ, that match-up got me dropped from Diamond to Plat. One problem I have when I do a 1 or 2 rax expand is dying to the countepush. I push early, he repels the push, meanwhile I expand and put up a bunker as defense.
I then assume that they will drone up but he just invests everything in ling/bling and roll over my expansion so I lose even though my economy is 50% better. Having hellions early may solve this since it is easier to see if they are droning up or not. Try to NOT lose too many marines early on. Get a bunker up while you pressure and sim city your natural. Check the replays in the OP that are attributed to Jinro for some good Sim City. IF you feel like he is going to do some kind of 2 base all in you should add in bunkers and maybe go straight to siege tanks instead of hellions. That is all situational though. Play around with different reactions to different scouting. On May 14 2011 20:31 Daniel C wrote:
Fantastic guide, I've been doing this build in low masters but lately I've been struggling a lot. Hopefully I can use some of the tips to improve my play. Some comments and questions follow.
1. Why do you only move out @ 6 hellions? Wouldn't you head out with the first 2 to take the towers and force lings?
2. What is your thought on reactor swapping your first rax to get 3x hellion production?
3. Against Spanishiwa style, I find that a weakness is that you can't control their insane creep spread compared to say fast medivacs and marines clearing creep. I find that it makes your hellions less effective and more easily killed by lings.
4. I've played several zergs who go straight to ultras after opening with upgraded speedling / infestor. How do you counter this unit combination?
Thanks alot! 1. Because at the 6th hellion blue flame finshes. On a 1 rax build this is around 8:20. That a perfect time to take map control because it really pressures the zerg when he wants to power hard / take a 3rd / tech up. 2. I think that makes your build transition into a different style. Might be nice if you are going for what philibird mentioned. 3. Blue flamers at 8:20 followed by a fast 3rd base of your own will really do well vs a Spanishiwa style. 4. I counter ultras by have a large push when my 4th tank pops out. It will really hammer them hard as I take my own 3rd. I try to go a bit marauder heavy if possible but in general medic/marine/tank is decent vs ultras. The real counter to Ultras is good macro/micro (imo). There's no reason why you should wait for 6 hellions to push out. Use your first 1-2 to take the Xel'nagas, gain map control, and most importantly, for scouting. You need those first hellions out on the map, poking at his natural to make sure he isn't doing some kind of Roach timing push. If he does you need to drop bunkers immediately and get ready to pull SCVs for repair. The key IMO to stopping the Spanishiwa build creep spread is to immediately start denying his tumors when you get your hellions out on the map (yes, with scans). I don't think a lot of players realize how effective denying creep spread early game really is.
If you build the factories right as your first 100 then second 100 gas accumulate and then start a tech lab right as factory one finishes, start blue flame asap, and have constant hellion production, you will have 6 hellions when the upgrade finishes. I find it nice to hold back till then because suddenly showing 6 blue flames right a timing when he needs to be greedy is a really powerful tool.
Stopping the creep spread of spanishiwa using scans is a bad idea. He has ~4 queens and 2 hatches. He has free creep spread. Use your mules and just abuse the fact that his tech is late and he invested into imobile defense and take a fast 3rd. its better to just deny morphing tumors with the blue flamers to halt the progression of the creep.
In general, denying creep earlier is better but vs spanishiwa you are playing into his hands if you are trading mules for tumors.
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On May 15 2011 05:46 Bleak wrote:
I actually do something similar to this, but I start my expo as I move out with my first 3-4 helions (which is when the blue flame upgrade finishes) Can you tell me which variation is better? I like to scout and see whats going on before going for a that FE (if hes going for a roach rush etc)
A double factory 1 rax before CC is going to leave you very invested into the early game. Its on you to do damage going that path.
I personally suggest you go with a 2 rax FE or 1 rax FE depending on which you like more! Try both! Check the replays and vods out to find out which looks better for you!
There is no BEST variation. Your opener you settle on will be better vs some openings he does and worse vs others. You can try to base the opening off of maps but even that isn't full proof (far from it even!).
Do a 1 or 2 rax fe, pressure with some marines, figure out his goals, and then adapt.
On May 15 2011 04:29 0c3LoT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 16:13 vaderseven wrote:On May 14 2011 12:53 PhiliBiRD wrote:
ive been doing this build in 90% of my tvzs for the past 6 weeks or so.
only difference is i make hellions all game This is a 100% awesome and valid variation on this. Its great vs muta/ling/bling. Its great in its on way vs infestor play. I find it a bit less intuitive and a bit more counterable than the tank/marine/medivak transition. I wrote this guide with the intent of making a guide that is like what I would teach in a lesson to a gold-diamond player that was wanting to learn a standard style for TvZ that he could mass game with. Variations like that are solid but not at the same level for teaching? I don't know how to say it 100% but it just doesn't offer as much as a learning tool as tank/marine/med control does. How do you figure? I don't see a good reason for stopping Hellion production at any time when using this style. Marine/tank/med, and BF hellions to flank or counter actually requires a pretty good amount of control.
That sounds like a fine later transition but if you are talking about on 2 or 3 base I just don't see you being able to get the critical mass of tanks OR blue flamers needed to make them effective. 6 tanks is way more effective than (more than 100% more effective) than 3 tanks. With 2 factories its harder to make what you describe work.
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I know this really depends on what the zerg did, but generally, when do you find is the best time to push? This is the biggest problem for me..what is a good critical tank amount amount to do damage/apply enough pressure
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Great guide, thanks for the work because it's helping a lot in games and i just recently got promoted because of it.
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On May 15 2011 15:11 CrayonKing wrote:
I know this really depends on what the zerg did, but generally, when do you find is the best time to push? This is the biggest problem for me..what is a good critical tank amount amount to do damage/apply enough pressure
You can base it off of HIM or off of YOU.
If you base it off of you, try pushing at 4 tanks or 6 tanks.
If you base it off of him, try to actively scout with the hellions. When his 3rd base is like 50% done is a great time to move out. You dont want to push before his 3rd base starts really and you don't want to push after it "kicks in." By kicking in, I mean he has it saturated for a good 30 seconds or so. After it kicks in he will be so much stronger rather suddenly.
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adding these replays I found watching reps today -
+ Show Spoiler +http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=8303 (Drewbie doing a standard 2 rax into a cute adaptation for typoon peaks vertical positions | features a hellion marine attack instead of map control style hellion usage, a good viable variation to know about) http://sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=8205 (QXC doing a super agro 2 rax into a 3 base "turtle push")
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Yes this is appreciated
If he went for infestor play, you will want your tanks to be more bunched up and to be more on the leading side of the force. It can sometimes be good to even allow the tanks, if positioning allows, to be the threating element that forces the fight. If you let marines become bunched up and ahead of tanks they will get fungaled and they will die.
Can you clarify? Why would you want to bunch up your tanks if you could spread them while keeping them ahead?
Also I think it would be great to mention a simple tip for dropping; drop the units between mineral patches or between geysers, as it is much easier than dropping them on the side and then stimming in, which may be riskier. There are pros and cons to this but I find it very useful unless you're going to pay 100% attention to it or have enough APM to while keeping perfect macro and decent micro everywhere else.
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Nice guide to easily one of the best TvZ builds. The fast expand keeps up with the zerg economy and the pressure from the hellions keep you safe from anything but the heaviest of roach all-ins til muta come around.
I tend to deviate to a 1rax 1fact expand (expand as the 4marine + hellion push moves out) occasionally in order to get the hellions out faster. I feel like I'm not particularly safe against a zerg until I have the harassment units out, considering I'm pumping off of only 1 rax. Is this a justified way of thinking, or will the bunkers at the natural hold a 2base baneling bust?
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How would you play this build against the Spanishiwa build?
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What I have trouble with is that "insane" broodlord corrupter push that comes mid game after they wipe up your other units. I just get raped by it.
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On May 16 2011 02:48 shifty wrote:
What I have trouble with is that "insane" broodlord corrupter push that comes mid game after they wipe up your other units. I just get raped by it.
I will add a section on how to deal with this.
On May 15 2011 19:15 ThaSlayer wrote:
How would you play this build against the Spanishiwa build?
I will add a section on how to deal with this as it is a common question. I have answered it in the thread if you check my replies though.
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As a new player I really appreciate guides like this, so thank you! There are not enough guides on the simple builds such as this and 1/1/1 so it makes learning them a bit harder.
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a guid for standard terran play, thanks a LOT. But i have a question, what do you do on tal darim? opening wise, hellion builds seem to be the only option if you want to put pressure on. Or are you equal if you just FE as well?
+ Show Spoiler +tvp and tvt standard plays would be awesome as well <3
also what is you opinion about the 9:00 timing attack? I always thought of that as the standard tvz thing to do 
also, what to do if he has roaches before you have hellions, as a response to your 2rax. Skip hellions altogether?
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This looks a lot like the qxc standard TvZ build, where he goes 11 rax, 12 rax, expand, transition to BF hellions and goes mech.How you deal with Hyper Agressive zergs like when qxc lost to July on NASL?
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Thank you so much for taking the time to write all this out! I've been looking forever for a guide to the standard marine/tank and this really answered all my questions. Now off to roast some zergs 
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I want to agree with all the thanks people have given you, this guide has sincerely helped my play and I am glad you added it.
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On May 15 2011 04:10 0c3LoT wrote:
There's no reason why you should wait for 6 hellions to push out. Use your first 1-2 to take the Xel'nagas, gain map control, and most importantly, for scouting. You need those first hellions out on the map, poking at his natural to make sure he isn't doing some kind of Roach timing push. If he does you need to drop bunkers immediately and get ready to pull SCVs for repair.
The key IMO to stopping the Spanishiwa build creep spread is to immediately start denying his tumors when you get your hellions out on the map (yes, with scans). I don't think a lot of players realize how effective denying creep spread early game really is.
The problem with clearing towers with 2 hellions is that you show him you have hellions. If he knows that you're going for 2 fac bfh, he knows that there won't be any tanks out until you've made enough hellions. You will also probably lose any chance of catching the Zergs drones off guard and roasting 20 of them. You can just as easily take 2 or 3 marines and clear the towers with those. A creep tumor takes 6 hellion shots to kill. 2 hellions will kill them very slowly and you'll just waste scans. You can scout in other ways, if you really have to do it.
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On June 02 2011 16:18 Sotamursu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 04:10 0c3LoT wrote:
There's no reason why you should wait for 6 hellions to push out. Use your first 1-2 to take the Xel'nagas, gain map control, and most importantly, for scouting. You need those first hellions out on the map, poking at his natural to make sure he isn't doing some kind of Roach timing push. If he does you need to drop bunkers immediately and get ready to pull SCVs for repair.
The key IMO to stopping the Spanishiwa build creep spread is to immediately start denying his tumors when you get your hellions out on the map (yes, with scans). I don't think a lot of players realize how effective denying creep spread early game really is.
The problem with clearing towers with 2 hellions is that you show him you have hellions. If he knows that you're going for 2 fac bfh, he knows that there won't be any tanks out until you've made enough hellions. You will also probably lose any chance of catching the Zergs drones off guard and roasting 20 of them. You can just as easily take 2 or 3 marines and clear the towers with those. A creep tumor takes 6 hellion shots to kill. 2 hellions will kill them very slowly and you'll just waste scans. You can scout in other ways, if you really have to do it.
Good tip on the creep tumor - 6 hellions would make clearing creep tumors with hellions viable because you can one-shot them
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I love this build I am a Master Terran and this build improved my T v Z alot!
Thanks...
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Great guide!
Been using this build in every TvZ in Gold. I Have a few questions:
1) Regarding the early game pressure: What do you think of doing a 1 rax reaper expand and using the reaper to poke instead of a few marines before you transition into the 2 factory BF Hellion?
2) Regarding the push: What do you think of delaying the Starport tech in favour of getting earlier Bio and Mech upgrades, then getting the starport and 3rd base only when you push to contain the Zerg? Once he's contained with the upgraded Marine-Tank combo you can start using Medivac drops to take out bases the hellions have scouted. Also, what time do you usually aim to push?
3) In at least 3 of my past few TvZs the Zerg went Infestor-Broodlord-Corruptor-Roach instead of Ling-Muta-Baneling. I was taken aback by it as they were all on 3 bases at most. Is that common Zerg play and is it something that needs to be taken into account regarding the build? Switching to Viking production seemed to be enough to win me 2 of those 3 games, though the brood lords did a lot of damage.
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Im a 1100 point masters terran and I do blue flame openings almost 100% of the time against zerg except i get the fact before cc (you build the cc before the fact and build the second one with your next fact with the next 100 gas and second gas) this allows you to really worry the zerg by taking a gas and being aggressive with two factory hellions and a few marines. Taking map control like this and preventing a third while you get your 3rd cc building and 3 rax and 2 fact tanks pumping with upgrades this can put you extremely far ahead if zerg over reacts and makes too many units. This kind of pressure is massively more advantageous that a slightly faster and more risky CC.
12 weeks with painuser is a great showcase of this. Its the first game on the vod.
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On May 14 2011 20:31 Daniel C wrote:
Fantastic guide, I've been doing this build in low masters but lately I've been struggling a lot. Hopefully I can use some of the tips to improve my play. Some comments and questions follow.
1. Why do you only move out @ 6 hellions? Wouldn't you head out with the first 2 to take the towers and force lings?
2. What is your thought on reactor swapping your first rax to get 3x hellion production?
3. Against Spanishiwa style, I find that a weakness is that you can't control their insane creep spread compared to say fast medivacs and marines clearing creep. I find that it makes your hellions less effective and more easily killed by lings.
4. I've played several zergs who go straight to ultras after opening with upgraded speedling / infestor. How do you counter this unit combination?
Thanks alot!
In response to #3, bf hellions are superior to damn near any other unit comp to kill creep around the 10min mark. Because you 2 ocs you can easily drop a scan or 2 to pick off the 3-4 pockets of tumors around his base and just camp out his nat so you have complete control of creep spread until he gets roaches. If you have 8 hellions you can just straight up murder 2-3 queens with proper hellion micro if he decides to engage you.
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I'm a Zerg player, and I give this guide my seal of (dis)approval. This style is really really strong, and I completely hate playing against it, since the fast command center followed by stealing map control with hellions keeps the Z in the dark for a long time.
In response to the other posts asking about speedling/infestor, you can really abuse drops as soon as he moves out of his base. Drop his main and his third simultaneously, and keep your marines between the mineral patches so only a few zerglings can attack at once. He'll need to pull his infestors to take out the drop, and you can do damage to key tech structures and his drone count.
I love going for upgraded speedlings and infestors with a fast hive, but it basically requires 6 gas to even sustain the hive tech, and 8 gas makes it quite a bit stronger. If you can do chipping damage to the Zerg's economy and work up to a deathball of tanks, that in my opinion is the strongest against an ultralisk transition. Against brood lord on the other hand, your response has to be different, however you can scout whichever one he is going for with scans.
If we assume that you do no damage to the Z and he is free to drone his third, the hive most often goes down at 15 minutes. Scan then and see whether he's going brood lord or ultra.
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Why is there not one of these for every matchup?
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On June 03 2011 08:41 GhettoSheep wrote:
Why is there not one of these for every matchup?
I have been extremely busy since I wrote this!!! I do plan to do at least 1 for each TvX matchup and I plan to update this one (soon for that part).
Glad to this is well received and thank you all for the kind posts / PMs.
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I have a question about this TvZ strategy.
I tried using a very similar opening at masters level before I saw this thread (that is 1 rax with fast CC into double gas, then bunker and 2 factory hellions (one with tech lab for infernal pre-igniter), then transition into marine-tank). It's a very stong opening, I must admit. However, I have run into problems against baneling-speedling or roach-speedling allins.
I used this opening up until I ran into a few zergs who would just roach-ling or baneling-speedling allin me as a reaction to scouting the early command center. At first I would build CC below ramp with a bunker, but after losing to a few allins I decided to build my command center in my main. However, I still died to the occasional allin. I even asked a zerg player who defeated me to play several games where they would do the baneling allin while I did my opening. But, not matter what I did (CC below ramp or CC above ramp, wall or no wall, bunker or no bunker, etc.), I would always die to this reactionary allin.
It just seems to me that this build has a timing weakness, when you have 1 rax, a few unupgraded marines, a bunker and 2 factories being constructed, where the zerg player can kill you. If a zerg player goes hatch first, scouts no gas, makes lings to stop your pressure and kill scouting SCV and then goes for either a baneling-speedling or roach-speedling allin it feels like the terran will die and be unable to scout it in time. With the baneling-speedling allin, banelings will kill your wall and/or bunker before your factories are done and then speedlings will surround everything else and surround hellions as they finish building. The roach-speedling allin is even worse since roaches hard counter unupgraded marines and hellions.
I would like to use this opening since it is powerful if the zerg doesn't allin you. But I just don't think it is safe. Could you please comment on how you deal with these reactionary allins?
In the meantime I'm going to play around with fast CC into marauder-hellion openings since they seem safer against these allins.
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Thank you for this thread! I'm 1000+ masters atm with pretty decent TvP and TvT but my zerg is lacking sooo much, I will return to you after I experiment with this build alot.
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Just want to say that this strategy was seen in
+ Show Spoiler + MMA vs. Losira MLG finals game 1. Tip to terran players: don't get your double factory scouted - put it in the middle of your base to prevent spotting by overlords coming from behind your minerals on Shattered Temple.
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Hello again TeamLiquid.
I want to address the issue that several have brought up regarding reactionary Zerg all-ins. They usually take the form of Roach/Ling/Baneling or some subset of those units. This post will be mainly concerning the 1 Rax FE versions of this style but the concepts can apply to 2 Rax styles as well.
Do not fear! There is in fact a logical way to approach this problem and to counter it.
First off, the counter itself : Make yourself a total of 2-4 bunkers, ensure you have good sim city in the natural and a wall protecting the main, and transfer a good portion of the SCVs in your natural to your main before the all in hits. It is optional to abort the blueflame production and go straight into tanks, if you do so, you will need to get more than just 2 gas.
Ok, so now we have a goal. We want to have a good sim city in the natural with extra bunkers spread out and evacuate many SCVs before the all in even hits. GREAT! Now how do we know to do that? Let’s think about a couple key points. The Zerg all-in usually hits between 7:30 and 8:30. This means we need to know around 7:00 if this is going to happen. Now we are getting somewhere. We have a timing window and a reaction, we just need to know what and how to scout now. The ultimate and fool proof way is to scan the zerg main around 7 minutes. Take a look at his gas, any tech buildings you might see, and check for a lair. The key point that is a dead giveaway many times is a simple yes/no question. Has he harvested more than 200 gas and not gotten or started a Lair? If you say yes to that, instantly start building a few bunkers and complete the wall-off at the top of your ramp if it isn’t. As the bunkers near completion send all but say 6 SCVs back into your main
A few other scouting options including looking for tells with a marine poke (dangerous, don’t lose marines pls!), making a tech lab on the 1st rax around the time the 2nd factory starts and getting 1 reaper for scouting (I haven’t seen this done at the top levels but I have had some moderate success with it, still playing with it).
If you have been doing a 1 Rax FE build you should have blue flame tech 50%-100% complete when he hits, 1 Rax from the opening, 2 more Rax being built or just completed, and 2 factories (1 with a tech lab).
When the all-in hits, do not be afraid to lift up your natural CC. You will be buying a bit of time while you get the right factory unit comp in order to shut his all in down. If he just has speedlings just wait for the blue flame. If he has mainly roaches or has shown Baneling tech then get your tanks out asap. Once you have 2-3 tanks with siege his all in is over and done.
As soon as I see that he has all-in’d me I worry about my SCVs (keep them safe!), my wall at my ramp, getting the right factory units out, staying on top of my macro, and getting a 3rd CC started ASAP. The beauty of having two factories this early is that we can effectively shut down the next waves of his all in AND he will be behind in tech. His ability to punish a very fast 3rd base will be shut down.
I am sorry to those that wish I updated this thread more often but do know I read the replies every day at work. I will continue to update this thread and future ones at my slow pace but do know they WILL stay updated until such a time as the build becomes outdated.
I will add this, a small section discussing the Spanishwa style, a discussion of the ling/bling/muta vs roach/bling/ling midgames, and transitioning to the later game to the OP. Expect those to all be in there by the end of the weekend (hopefully).
Game on fellow macro terrans!
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nice post! i will tatoo this to my body.
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@Bleak, your variation is much more defensive and gets you a later expo, thus a weaker economy for the late game. If there is a timing you can always scout to see if someone is going with an all in. Firstly if they didn't expand yet you should leave you CC in your base and bunker up, but otherwise just watch 1 rep, look when the roach warren is up and scan at that time. Voila you know exacly if they going for 1 base baneling or 1 base roach.
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I love this opening. This opening single-handedly turned my shitty win-rate vs. Zerg into a really good one at least for my level.
That being said, I was getting 4-5 helions first and then my CC, but now I'll always go the CC first and then Factories. I actually knew about this opening aswell but did it only on Taldarim Altar (quite big map, seemed logical to get a really quick FE there)
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@vaderseven - I'm still not convinced about your reply with respect to dealing with reactionary zerg allins. Bunkers take a very long time to build (40 seconds) and it is difficult to scout the zerg once they get zerglings out. Your only option is to scan, but where do you scan? Main or natural? Zergs can place their baneling nest/roach warren in either so you basically have a 50% chance of scouting it with each scan, not to mention the scan costs 270 minerals, which makes it more difficult to hold the all-in once it hits. Your best bet is to scan the natural so you can alteast see how many drones the opponent has made (less drones imply that an allin is likely). But even then, there is always the possibility that your opponent is just going for a slightly later all-in (roach allins come slightly later than baneling allins) and that they will throw down a roach warren the moment your scan ends. So this might mean that you will need 2+ scans in the correct locations and at the correct times in order to not die. Also, where will all the money come from to throw down 4 bunkers in time? Not to mention, if you make 4 bunkers, and lose 2-3 potential mules you will be quite far behind if the zerg decides to not attack and just macro up.
Also, the following quote you made gives me the impression that you do not fully understand how early some of these reactionary allins can come:
If you have been doing a 1 Rax FE build you should have blue flame tech 50%-100% complete when he hits, 1 Rax from the opening, 2 more Rax being built or just completed, and 2 factories (1 with a tech lab).
Allins at these timings are fairly easy to deal with, since your factories are done and are already producing units. It's the earlier timings that are difficult to deal with since your factories haven't produced anything and all you have is a bunker and a handfull of marines from 1 rax.
An allin that is very difficult to stop going the 1 rax FE into 2 factory hellions is the following: Zerg goes 14/15 hatch -> spawning pool -> gas -> gets 1-2 queens for larva -> zergling speed with first 100 gas -> baneling nest shortly after -> (possibly cuts drones for zerglings, though this isn't completely necessary) -> creates 6-7 banelings outside your natural when baneling nest completes then attacks you with 6-7 banelings, a large number of speedlings and constant speedling reinforcements. When the attack comes your 1st factory will be complete but still be making a tech lab and your 2nd factory will either be still under construction or just completed. It is unlikely that you will have any hellions out yet, let alone your blue flame being 50-100% done, so you will probably die.
Another allin that is difficult to stop is where the zerg does the exact same opening but gets roach warren instead of baneling nest and then makes 6-8 roaches when roach warren completes (usually the zerg will skip 2nd queen in this), then makes a roach-speedling timing attack with speedlings constantly reinforcing the attack. The attack comes a bit later than the baneling allin (you should have 2-4 hellions), but roaches just own unupgraded marines and hellions. If you opt to get a tank first then you will still only have 1 tank, 1-2 hellions and a handful of marines vs a very scary zerg force.
I would really like to see some replays that show how you scout, react and not die / fall ridiculously behind to these types of allins. It just seems to me that by opting to go for 2 fast factories (one with a tech lab), you will only be producing 1 rax marines for a very long time, which creates a massive timing window that says 'kill me'.
I find it is much safer to do something like 1 rax expo (put 2nd orbital in main) -> double gas -> 2nd barracks -> factory with first 100 gas -> make tech lab on 1st rax, then 2nd rax when it completes -> start marauder production at 1st rax -> swap tech lab on 2nd rax with factory when factory completes -> start blue flame, hellion production and marine production at 2nd rax. With this opening you get units out much sooner since you get a 2nd rax instead of 2nd factory, the 2nd rax comes sooner, and you make the tech lab at the 2nd rax rather than the factory which means you get hellions and blue flame sooner. Thus it does not have the same timing weakness that the 1 rax expo -> 2 factory opening has.
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I didnt fully appreciate the potential of this build until my last game vs a Zerg on Shakuras. Having the Blue-flame hellions out poking around on the map makes a huge difference, does a lot to remove that ominous feeling that the Zerg is spreading all over the map while you're building up your tank count.
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I've been going this build since the dawn of time and I think you missed a couple of points;
On shak wall off your natural with the 2rax you started with + ebay (make sure the zerg doesn't wreck you during this time with scouting, when you move out just lift your rax.
On Shattered, wall off your natural with 2rax + ebay + bunker, if you're close positions, instead of lifting your barracks to move out you can consider killing the rocks and making a 2nd path to his base.
It's also my preference to go a reactor on the 2nd rax, because i can easily switch the factory and the rax and have reactored marines asap + tech lab doesn't take that long to build.
Just a few points ^.^
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Wouldn't it be better to make 2 additional barracks instead of making 2 reactors for both barracks, because it won't stop your marine production while those 2 barracks are being built and it doesn't cost any gas either.
I don't know if it lets you have more marines early, but at least you would save 100 gas. Only downside is that you would have to spend 300 minerals.
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On June 10 2011 06:44 vaderseven wrote:
A few other scouting options including looking for tells with a marine poke (dangerous, don’t lose marines pls!), making a tech lab on the 1st rax around the time the 2nd factory starts and getting 1 reaper for scouting (I haven’t seen this done at the top levels but I have had some moderate success with it, still playing with it).
Just thought I would add that while watching coL.Stalife streaming yesterday or the day before, he uses a very similar build except he opens with a reaper expand into 2 fact blue flame hellions (I didn't see him lose a game with this build while I was watching). In one game in particular on Typhon Peaks, the zerg opted for a 2 base ling bling bust, with blue flame upgrade finishing during the bust, with some simple micro he cleaned it up no problem taking minimal damage.
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This is a great guide, I normally prefer MECH against Zerg because it easy... But this works much better!
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Very nice flow and timing to this build, I've been using this in my ZvT's now. 3 rax with two reactors still doesn't seem to be enough though, and I dont nkow how well a reactor'd starport will fit into there...
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On June 20 2011 15:04 Ascendance wrote:
Very nice flow and timing to this build, I've been using this in my ZvT's now. 3 rax with two reactors still doesn't seem to be enough though, and I dont nkow how well a reactor'd starport will fit into there...
I've tried it and after starting my Blue flame upgrade and getting my first helions, about when I have 4 helions (and blue flame about 60%-70% done) I put down the Starport for the medivac and push out when I have 2 medivacs, 3-4 tanks, and many marines as I can get arond 12-13 minutes. I keep adding more raxes eventually tho. I think 5 reactor raxes or so are ok to support on 2 base along with 2 fact making tanks and medivacs.
It's something like this for me:
Factories finish, add Engineering bay and Techlab on first rax. (get +1 attack and stim)
Blue flame 60% done, got 4 helions out, add a starport and start adding 2-3 more barracks.
Start getting your third cc.
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Man this is hard to deal with as a zerg. I Agree completely on the issue of threat and how blue flame are very good at creating it early.
Great guide!
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seems to me you need to be addressing more 'drawback's or 'deviations'. how do you respond to fast baneling aggression off a one racks expand? how do you respond to fast roach aggression or timed roach response when you have committed to two racks so fast?
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seems to me you need to be addressing more 'drawback's or 'deviations'. how do you respond to fast baneling aggression off a one racks expand? how do you respond to fast roach aggression or timed roach response when you have committed to two racks so fast?
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DDE used this opening vs. Idra in NA Bnet Invitational Game 1 on Metalopolis. He followed it up wih a Thor+15-20marines+3-4 Tank push and took out Idra's third, then his fourth, and then took the gold, along with the expo at 3 o'clock. His decision making and bad EMPs cost him the game, but he almost took Idra out. Seeing my favourite opening made me quite happy
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EPT
