EPT12 weeks with painuser is a great showcase of this. Its the first game on the vod.
[G] TvZ FE with BF Transition to Tank/Marine/Med - Page 3
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seefour
United Kingdom107 Posts
12 weeks with painuser is a great showcase of this. Its the first game on the vod. | ||
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Badfatpanda
United States9719 Posts
On May 14 2011 20:31 Daniel C wrote: Fantastic guide, I've been doing this build in low masters but lately I've been struggling a lot. Hopefully I can use some of the tips to improve my play. Some comments and questions follow. 1. Why do you only move out @ 6 hellions? Wouldn't you head out with the first 2 to take the towers and force lings? 2. What is your thought on reactor swapping your first rax to get 3x hellion production? 3. Against Spanishiwa style, I find that a weakness is that you can't control their insane creep spread compared to say fast medivacs and marines clearing creep. I find that it makes your hellions less effective and more easily killed by lings. 4. I've played several zergs who go straight to ultras after opening with upgraded speedling / infestor. How do you counter this unit combination? Thanks alot! In response to #3, bf hellions are superior to damn near any other unit comp to kill creep around the 10min mark. Because you 2 ocs you can easily drop a scan or 2 to pick off the 3-4 pockets of tumors around his base and just camp out his nat so you have complete control of creep spread until he gets roaches. If you have 8 hellions you can just straight up murder 2-3 queens with proper hellion micro if he decides to engage you. | ||
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Boundless
Canada588 Posts
In response to the other posts asking about speedling/infestor, you can really abuse drops as soon as he moves out of his base. Drop his main and his third simultaneously, and keep your marines between the mineral patches so only a few zerglings can attack at once. He'll need to pull his infestors to take out the drop, and you can do damage to key tech structures and his drone count. I love going for upgraded speedlings and infestors with a fast hive, but it basically requires 6 gas to even sustain the hive tech, and 8 gas makes it quite a bit stronger. If you can do chipping damage to the Zerg's economy and work up to a deathball of tanks, that in my opinion is the strongest against an ultralisk transition. Against brood lord on the other hand, your response has to be different, however you can scout whichever one he is going for with scans. If we assume that you do no damage to the Z and he is free to drone his third, the hive most often goes down at 15 minutes. Scan then and see whether he's going brood lord or ultra.  | ||
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GhettoSheep
United States150 Posts
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
On June 03 2011 08:41 GhettoSheep wrote: Why is there not one of these for every matchup? I have been extremely busy since I wrote this!!! I do plan to do at least 1 for each TvX matchup and I plan to update this one (soon for that part). Glad to this is well received and thank you all for the kind posts / PMs. | ||
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-1equalsexp(ipi)
Canada118 Posts
I tried using a very similar opening at masters level before I saw this thread (that is 1 rax with fast CC into double gas, then bunker and 2 factory hellions (one with tech lab for infernal pre-igniter), then transition into marine-tank). It's a very stong opening, I must admit. However, I have run into problems against baneling-speedling or roach-speedling allins. I used this opening up until I ran into a few zergs who would just roach-ling or baneling-speedling allin me as a reaction to scouting the early command center. At first I would build CC below ramp with a bunker, but after losing to a few allins I decided to build my command center in my main. However, I still died to the occasional allin. I even asked a zerg player who defeated me to play several games where they would do the baneling allin while I did my opening. But, not matter what I did (CC below ramp or CC above ramp, wall or no wall, bunker or no bunker, etc.), I would always die to this reactionary allin. It just seems to me that this build has a timing weakness, when you have 1 rax, a few unupgraded marines, a bunker and 2 factories being constructed, where the zerg player can kill you. If a zerg player goes hatch first, scouts no gas, makes lings to stop your pressure and kill scouting SCV and then goes for either a baneling-speedling or roach-speedling allin it feels like the terran will die and be unable to scout it in time. With the baneling-speedling allin, banelings will kill your wall and/or bunker before your factories are done and then speedlings will surround everything else and surround hellions as they finish building. The roach-speedling allin is even worse since roaches hard counter unupgraded marines and hellions. I would like to use this opening since it is powerful if the zerg doesn't allin you. But I just don't think it is safe. Could you please comment on how you deal with these reactionary allins? In the meantime I'm going to play around with fast CC into marauder-hellion openings since they seem safer against these allins. | ||
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Merc Scout
Canada11 Posts
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + MMA vs. Losira MLG finals game 1. Tip to terran players: don't get your double factory scouted - put it in the middle of your base to prevent spotting by overlords coming from behind your minerals on Shattered Temple. | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
I want to address the issue that several have brought up regarding reactionary Zerg all-ins. They usually take the form of Roach/Ling/Baneling or some subset of those units. This post will be mainly concerning the 1 Rax FE versions of this style but the concepts can apply to 2 Rax styles as well. Do not fear! There is in fact a logical way to approach this problem and to counter it. First off, the counter itself : Make yourself a total of 2-4 bunkers, ensure you have good sim city in the natural and a wall protecting the main, and transfer a good portion of the SCVs in your natural to your main before the all in hits. It is optional to abort the blueflame production and go straight into tanks, if you do so, you will need to get more than just 2 gas. Ok, so now we have a goal. We want to have a good sim city in the natural with extra bunkers spread out and evacuate many SCVs before the all in even hits. GREAT! Now how do we know to do that? Let’s think about a couple key points. The Zerg all-in usually hits between 7:30 and 8:30. This means we need to know around 7:00 if this is going to happen. Now we are getting somewhere. We have a timing window and a reaction, we just need to know what and how to scout now. The ultimate and fool proof way is to scan the zerg main around 7 minutes. Take a look at his gas, any tech buildings you might see, and check for a lair. The key point that is a dead giveaway many times is a simple yes/no question. Has he harvested more than 200 gas and not gotten or started a Lair? If you say yes to that, instantly start building a few bunkers and complete the wall-off at the top of your ramp if it isn’t. As the bunkers near completion send all but say 6 SCVs back into your main A few other scouting options including looking for tells with a marine poke (dangerous, don’t lose marines pls!), making a tech lab on the 1st rax around the time the 2nd factory starts and getting 1 reaper for scouting (I haven’t seen this done at the top levels but I have had some moderate success with it, still playing with it). If you have been doing a 1 Rax FE build you should have blue flame tech 50%-100% complete when he hits, 1 Rax from the opening, 2 more Rax being built or just completed, and 2 factories (1 with a tech lab). When the all-in hits, do not be afraid to lift up your natural CC. You will be buying a bit of time while you get the right factory unit comp in order to shut his all in down. If he just has speedlings just wait for the blue flame. If he has mainly roaches or has shown Baneling tech then get your tanks out asap. Once you have 2-3 tanks with siege his all in is over and done. As soon as I see that he has all-in’d me I worry about my SCVs (keep them safe!), my wall at my ramp, getting the right factory units out, staying on top of my macro, and getting a 3rd CC started ASAP. The beauty of having two factories this early is that we can effectively shut down the next waves of his all in AND he will be behind in tech. His ability to punish a very fast 3rd base will be shut down. I am sorry to those that wish I updated this thread more often but do know I read the replies every day at work. I will continue to update this thread and future ones at my slow pace but do know they WILL stay updated until such a time as the build becomes outdated. I will add this, a small section discussing the Spanishwa style, a discussion of the ling/bling/muta vs roach/bling/ling midgames, and transitioning to the later game to the OP. Expect those to all be in there by the end of the weekend (hopefully). Game on fellow macro terrans! | ||
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grapez
United States64 Posts
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Merc Scout
Canada11 Posts
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
That being said, I was getting 4-5 helions first and then my CC, but now I'll always go the CC first and then Factories. I actually knew about this opening aswell but did it only on Taldarim Altar (quite big map, seemed logical to get a really quick FE there) | ||
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-1equalsexp(ipi)
Canada118 Posts
Also, the following quote you made gives me the impression that you do not fully understand how early some of these reactionary allins can come: If you have been doing a 1 Rax FE build you should have blue flame tech 50%-100% complete when he hits, 1 Rax from the opening, 2 more Rax being built or just completed, and 2 factories (1 with a tech lab). Allins at these timings are fairly easy to deal with, since your factories are done and are already producing units. It's the earlier timings that are difficult to deal with since your factories haven't produced anything and all you have is a bunker and a handfull of marines from 1 rax. An allin that is very difficult to stop going the 1 rax FE into 2 factory hellions is the following: Zerg goes 14/15 hatch -> spawning pool -> gas -> gets 1-2 queens for larva -> zergling speed with first 100 gas -> baneling nest shortly after -> (possibly cuts drones for zerglings, though this isn't completely necessary) -> creates 6-7 banelings outside your natural when baneling nest completes then attacks you with 6-7 banelings, a large number of speedlings and constant speedling reinforcements. When the attack comes your 1st factory will be complete but still be making a tech lab and your 2nd factory will either be still under construction or just completed. It is unlikely that you will have any hellions out yet, let alone your blue flame being 50-100% done, so you will probably die. Another allin that is difficult to stop is where the zerg does the exact same opening but gets roach warren instead of baneling nest and then makes 6-8 roaches when roach warren completes (usually the zerg will skip 2nd queen in this), then makes a roach-speedling timing attack with speedlings constantly reinforcing the attack. The attack comes a bit later than the baneling allin (you should have 2-4 hellions), but roaches just own unupgraded marines and hellions. If you opt to get a tank first then you will still only have 1 tank, 1-2 hellions and a handful of marines vs a very scary zerg force. I would really like to see some replays that show how you scout, react and not die / fall ridiculously behind to these types of allins. It just seems to me that by opting to go for 2 fast factories (one with a tech lab), you will only be producing 1 rax marines for a very long time, which creates a massive timing window that says 'kill me'. I find it is much safer to do something like 1 rax expo (put 2nd orbital in main) -> double gas -> 2nd barracks -> factory with first 100 gas -> make tech lab on 1st rax, then 2nd rax when it completes -> start marauder production at 1st rax -> swap tech lab on 2nd rax with factory when factory completes -> start blue flame, hellion production and marine production at 2nd rax. With this opening you get units out much sooner since you get a 2nd rax instead of 2nd factory, the 2nd rax comes sooner, and you make the tech lab at the 2nd rax rather than the factory which means you get hellions and blue flame sooner. Thus it does not have the same timing weakness that the 1 rax expo -> 2 factory opening has. | ||
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Spitfire
South Africa442 Posts
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Xenocidersc2
United States237 Posts
On shak wall off your natural with the 2rax you started with + ebay (make sure the zerg doesn't wreck you during this time with scouting, when you move out just lift your rax. On Shattered, wall off your natural with 2rax + ebay + bunker, if you're close positions, instead of lifting your barracks to move out you can consider killing the rocks and making a 2nd path to his base. It's also my preference to go a reactor on the 2nd rax, because i can easily switch the factory and the rax and have reactored marines asap + tech lab doesn't take that long to build. Just a few points ^.^ | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
I don't know if it lets you have more marines early, but at least you would save 100 gas. Only downside is that you would have to spend 300 minerals. | ||
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BigBossX
United Kingdom357 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:44 vaderseven wrote: A few other scouting options including looking for tells with a marine poke (dangerous, don’t lose marines pls!), making a tech lab on the 1st rax around the time the 2nd factory starts and getting 1 reaper for scouting (I haven’t seen this done at the top levels but I have had some moderate success with it, still playing with it). Just thought I would add that while watching coL.Stalife streaming yesterday or the day before, he uses a very similar build except he opens with a reaper expand into 2 fact blue flame hellions (I didn't see him lose a game with this build while I was watching). In one game in particular on Typhon Peaks, the zerg opted for a 2 base ling bling bust, with blue flame upgrade finishing during the bust, with some simple micro he cleaned it up no problem taking minimal damage. | ||
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BONE
United States176 Posts
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Ascendance
United States57 Posts
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
On June 20 2011 15:04 Ascendance wrote: Very nice flow and timing to this build, I've been using this in my ZvT's now. 3 rax with two reactors still doesn't seem to be enough though, and I dont nkow how well a reactor'd starport will fit into there... I've tried it and after starting my Blue flame upgrade and getting my first helions, about when I have 4 helions (and blue flame about 60%-70% done) I put down the Starport for the medivac and push out when I have 2 medivacs, 3-4 tanks, and many marines as I can get arond 12-13 minutes. I keep adding more raxes eventually tho. I think 5 reactor raxes or so are ok to support on 2 base along with 2 fact making tanks and medivacs. It's something like this for me: Factories finish, add Engineering bay and Techlab on first rax. (get +1 attack and stim) Blue flame 60% done, got 4 helions out, add a starport and start adding 2-3 more barracks. Start getting your third cc. | ||
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