About 75% of the time that I win a game, whether its through 2 rax pressure or a long macro game, my opponent tells me my race is imba and quits. I play Terran.
My question is, literally how did I lose this game? Or rather, how could I have won. I know there were windows where I had a significant supply lead and didn't push, however, since I was transitioning into heavier mech at those times in particular, I was mostly waiting for max to push (once I reached max I did push right away)
My macro isn't ideal, but I do alright I think, and certainly in this game, for the most part, it had nothing to do with it. Through pure macro, without any significant engagements to speak of, I gain a 55 supply lead on my Zerg opponent.
My upgrades were alright, I had 3/3 infantry in decent time.
My main problem was his unit comp, which brings us back to the title of the post. Broodlord/Corruptor.
He upgrades armor on his air units, so my Thor's do literally nothing (in fact, if you look closely, I think they may be HEALING his units when they attack they are doing literally negative damage). My marines, fully upgraded, melted. I did have hellions for a good amount of the battles, with blue flame, but even those didn't do enough against the broodling numbers.
Once he got such a big army of pure Broodlord/Corruptor, there was nothing I could do. Vikings obviously do well, but his amount of Corruptors plus the use of Fungal Growth..., I would have had to go nearly pure Viking to win the air battle. Then what happens? I heard you liked lings in your base, bro.
I know my Tank's were sieged at times, but he had significant Baneling numbers. And Broodlings act like fungal for splitting marines against Banelings. Its nothing new, every Terran players know about it, if theres Broodlords and Banelings, your choice is, stay sieged and destroy your own men, or unsiege and get rolled by Banelings.
Throughout this game I tried several different ratios of units and unit comps, and nothing came close to taking his Broodlord/Corruptor DEATHBALL.
I understand many people may tell me to 'not let him get to that point.' Well, thats not necessarily an option. I don't think 'win in the early game' is a viable strategy. For instance, the answer to the Protoss Colossus/Stalker deathballf for Zerg was not to 'win before he got it.' (it was a buff to Fungal Growth apparently)
On April 27 2011 06:42 SuPerFlyTNT wrote: He upgrades armor on his air units, so my Thor's do literally nothing (in fact, if you look closely, I think they may be HEALING his units when they attack they are doing literally negative damage).
I don't currently have the time to watch this replay, but I will get to it.
However, from what you have posted, I must ask, were the thors fully upgraded?
As a former Terran player and current zerg player, I would simply react with a hardy Viking/Thor composition. Fully upgraded of course, since I imagine in the late game, you would have the funds to support this.
During potential engagement, my first course of action would be to immediately focus down the corruptors. After they are taken care of, your vikings simply clean up the mess. The baneling threat is not really a threat considering that thors do a great job of soaking up their damage. However, if your thors do not end up surviving the battle, you should have some sort of reinforcing army to deal with it. (preferably a few siege tank and additional thors).
On April 27 2011 06:42 SuPerFlyTNT wrote: He upgrades armor on his air units, so my Thor's do literally nothing (in fact, if you look closely, I think they may be HEALING his units when they attack they are doing literally negative damage).
I don't currently have the time to watch this replay, but I will get to it.
At 19 minutes you scanned the greater spire building. This is your cue to add another reactor starport and begin pumping vikings. 8-10 is a good number to start with; add more if he goes heavy air. You had 2 vikings...
In a maxed army situation: - Throw down tons of extra production! You need to be able to remax quickly - Get upgrades! You have tons of money and your main lategame units (mech) were on awful upgrades. Don't forget hi-sec autotracking and building armor for late game. - Expand aggressively and throw down extra OCs for mules. This lets you bring some scvs along to repair without sacrificing any economy. If you have trouble defending, get some sensor towers.
I counter it with ghosts mostly dont think there is antoher counter at top level. I dont know exactly how high you are but if you play vs top zergs I think you just need ghosts nowdays cause you need to deal with these typical blizzard units also that kinda lock armies in place. Also pro tippies from serv when sniping hold down R (snipe) and keep it pressed then start sniping broodlords and use 6 mouse clicks per bl. Make sure you also make a shit fucking flying ton of barracks because you are going to lose all bio but if you manage to snipe the bls and keep the tanks alive you done a good trade.
On April 27 2011 07:28 4Servy wrote: I counter it with ghosts mostly dont think there is antoher counter at top level. I dont know exactly how high you are but if you play vs top zergs I think you just need ghosts nowdays. Also pro tippies from serv when sniping hold down R (snipe) and keep it pressed then start sniping broodlords and use 6 mouse clicks per bl. Make sure you also make a shit fucking flying ton of barracks because you are going to lose all bio but if you manage to snipe the bls and keep the tanks alive you done a good trade.
On April 27 2011 06:42 SuPerFlyTNT wrote: He upgrades armor on his air units, so my Thor's do literally nothing (in fact, if you look closely, I think they may be HEALING his units when they attack they are doing literally negative damage).
I don't currently have the time to watch this replay, but I will get to it.
First of all, he said he would get to it. Second of all, "you believe"? So you require others to watch a replay to a game which it doesn't sound like you've watched to any depth?
I have picked random points of time to analyze.
12:00 All you have are marines and medivacs, and a single tank. You are not using your engineering bays even though you have excess gas. You are not using your factory. You have 1 factory 4 barracks and a single starport. You are a bit mineral starved, probably due to having 7 unused Mules worth of energy. He's halfway to 2/2 and you're still on 1/1.
20:00 You have 4000 minerals, 800 gas, 1/1 mech while he has a greater spire and almost 3/3. ...
23:00 You have about 20 idle scvs. You're floating an absurd amount of resources. You have almost no vikings. This engagement lost you the game (since you had no production to recover)
So, you didn't have enough production, your macro was not very good, you maxed out on an army composition that does pretty poorly against brood lord corruptor, you were behind on upgrades to mech, which was the important part of your army after you suicided your marines by not unsieging tanks, you did not have many cost efficient drops, and you had a medivac chill behind his main for 90% of the game doing nothing.
You didn't try to exploit the slow speed of his brood lords either.
Late game I find ravens to work really well against BL, you can PDD and use the window to snipe the flying units with mass marines rushing forward if they are positioned on open ground.
Mithrandirs post covered the important bits, I was just adding that as well as the slow moving speed of Broodlords you can exploit the slow attack speed with PDD when your armies fight head to head.
It's not totally on point, but terran keeps his minerals down and is able to remax an army. From your play I thought it was macro that was at fault, because as soon as you moved out and started concentrating on your army the macro went out the window. Mithrandir sums it up very well.
However I liked your opening and will steal it for that map.
edit2: One other thing, I noticed in many games that when you are onto taking your third or fourth, zerg can try and be very greedy with extra bases.. In which case either blue flame or octo drops are totally necessary to stop them from gaining so much gas. That's the only way that they can get away with such a crazy army, so yes the strategy is to stop them from massing so many corruptors and broodlords. Too many vikings is better than dying in this case.
One thing to take note of is that broodlords are pretty immobile, I prefer not to face them straight up and just attack the zerg somewhere else. Your major downfall was that you didn't keep the zergs bases low. The reason why you lost was that perhaps his army was just better than yours. You wanted to go for the strong immobile mech army, your asking for a direct fight, hence his response was a proper one with mass broodlords. I've got some replays that could perhaps help you deal with broodlords that I suggest
1.) abusing the immobility, fight him where he isn't positions. keep the bases low
2.) Ghosts are probably an essential unit. Usually when you scout broodlords your natural response would be vikings, but these days because of fungal growth, I'm starting to use ghosts as an alternative.
mind you the second game was pretty close. But I feel if I had transitioned sooner and micro'd properly it might've been a little bit easier. The ghosts helped deal with the queens transfusion, the broodlords, and infestors
The main problem with broodlords is broodlings. I don't know why this ability was implemented at all, and doesn't even need to be researched. In BW we had Guardians, why they decided to improve them in such a huge imba way?... The problem of mass Viking, contrary to mass VR or mass Muta, is that vikings can't attack ground. Overcommiting in vikings is very dangerous. Another problem i saw many times is mass healing Queens on the battle. Zerg just brings a lot of queens (8-10) and it's very difficult to kill decent amount of BL with Curruptors constantly healed by queens. Brodlings is really imba against terran and, imo, had better to be removed from the game at all, cuz now the only answer to TvZ late game is not give Z a chance to get to mass BL, which is so ridiculous i think. Also queens transfuse should be fixed somehow, give 125 HP to a unit in one second is just a stupidest ability ever.
I think PainUser addressed this pretty well on inside the game.
More or less what he said is: locate the lair and locate the spire. You need to be checking the lair every couple of minutes to see when the hive starts. And, relative to that, you need to know when to expect brood lords (almost every good zerg will go brood lord in this position)
You need to have a reasonable viking count going into the battle, with some ability to replenish that force. If you don't have vikings when he has brood lords, then you have failed to counter his army comp and you deserve to lose.
To add on something from my experience, I've been in that situation a few times. I usually stim forward 6-8 marines and try to bait out fungals/damage a few brood lords. You should be able to make a dent in his force, and with vikings to follow up, you might be able to do it.
On May 14 2011 16:15 Jimbo77 wrote: The main problem with broodlords is broodlings. I don't know why this ability was implemented at all, and doesn't even need to be researched. In BW we had Guardians, why they decided to improve them in such a huge imba way?... The problem of mass Viking, contrary to mass VR or mass Muta, is that vikings can't attack ground. Overcommiting in vikings is very dangerous. Another problem i saw many times is mass healing Queens on the battle. Zerg just brings a lot of queens (8-10) and it's very difficult to kill decent amount of BL with Curruptors constantly healed by queens. Brodlings is really imba against terran and, imo, had better to be removed from the game at all, cuz now the only answer to TvZ late game is not give Z a chance to get to mass BL, which is so ridiculous i think. Also queens transfuse should be fixed somehow, give 125 HP to a unit in one second is just a stupidest ability ever.
Bump a 2 week and half week old thread just to cry imbalance? Really? And to ZERG?
EPT
