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Ok so I have had a pretty hard time dealing with zerglings/banelings early-mid game lately - laddering these past 3 days, I have had a sudden surge of zergs going early banelings vs me for some reason. My most common strategy is some combination of a 3-gate and expand, i.e. either:
1. 3-gate sentry expand
2. 3-gate pressure expand
3. 3-gate FE
With all 3 builds I usually try to get +1 as soon as possible, but because zerg can get speedling/baneling early usually that's not done.
The zergs I play against FE into mass speedling + baneling. Once the first pair/two pairs of lings come out, I lose all my scouting ability, so the first problem I have is to identify if they're actually going to mass speedling + baneling. My scouting probe will usually get to peek at their gas to see if they're keeping drones on gas for a longer than usual period of time, but to me that could be just as indicative of roaches. Turtling without poking out isn't a viable option either since I don't want to let zerg drone up uncontrollably.
Onto my second problem: unit composition. I'm usually really happy when I see zergs make speedlings, since a few zealots + stalker + FF can usually defend that and going mass speedling really hurts his econ. If he masses an insane amount of speedlings that's also fine, I can cancel my nexus knowing that his econ is pretty hurt as well. My problem is when he mixes banelings into the composition, since that completely destroys my zealots (and stalkers aren't really fantastic against speedlings even with FF). If I FF my zealots in there I'm safe from banelings but my zealots can't deal damage, and his army can just go deal damage elsewhere. If I split my zealots that just gives the lings so much surface area to do damage to them. Short of teching to colossus on one base (which comes with an econ issue) I'm not really sure how I can counter that.
My third problem: early baneling busts. I haven't really seen this done in many progames maybe just because I haven't watched the right ones, or because they're not as popular. My zerg opponent skips speed into banelings and mass slowlings. I can't remember the minute mark off the top of my head, but usually it hits before my warpgate tech is done (I usually don't chronoboost my warpgate tech, in favor of probes/sentries/zealots). I typically have something like 1 zealot 1 stalker and 2 sentries, or less. His banelings start to walk up my ramp, and I place a blocking FF or 2, but my FF's eventually run out and he busts in and floods my base. I just have no idea how to deal with it, especially given the scouting difficulty I mentioned earlier (i.e. ambiguity between roach and baneling rushes).
Thanks.
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its not clear if your problem is a baneling bust or midgame mass speedbane.
Im a zerg player who never tries to bbust protoss, so I don't know what the best answer would be for that, but my guess is that everything that works against roach rushes should work against banelings. You scout if the expansion is on time and if not play defensively as you would against any 1 base zerg. You can cannon up and still be ahead more than enough to finish him with a 1 base timing.
If he expands he should not be able to deny your expansion. Simcity at your natural, 1 cannon and forcefields, it's not that different from what you would do against simple speedling pressure. Forcefield to cut the banelings off and focus them with your sentries, later when you start to get stalkers you should be dealing 1 way damage as long as you stay in the comfort of your choke.
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On April 04 2011 12:39 dementrio wrote:
its not clear if your problem is a baneling bust or midgame mass speedbane.
My bad, it's both.
My problem with the forge + cannon + expand is that I'd basically be producing off 1 gate when it hits. The zerg FEs but doesn't make drones, so his expo basically functions as an in-base hatch. That's why he can make enough units to deny my expo.
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Hey there. Without a replay attached but just going off what you said, it sounds something like Aquanda's ZvP style. To answer your second problem, I would recommend watching this 12 Weeks With the Pros episode:
http://mrbitter.blip.tv/file/4801193/
In it, Aquanda talks about his unique ZvP style and how Protosses can counter it. A cheap and easy answer would be cannons + Stargate..if you know it's coming. Teching up to Templar and Archons come in later when you can get on more bases.
As for your scouting problem, you go 3-gate expand mostly you said. If you're unsure of what's coming, try researching Hallucination for your Sentries and opt for a scouting Phoenix.  I play Zerg, so I'm not positive when research for that would normally complete. I can tell you, however, that off a 14 gas/14 pool opening, Zergling speed finishes around the ~5:10 mark. Up until that point, you can use a Stalker to scout. Same speed as slow lings ensures if you're careful you won't lose it.
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Thanks, I'm watching that episode now. Forge + cannon to deny sounds reasonable. I don't actually know why I don't do that, except that usually I'm greedy and go Nexus right after my 3 gate and before forge.
Just a general question for P's in relation to PvZ expansions - how late can you expand if the zerg FE's and not be "behind" if the zerg is droning?
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I would advise strongly against stargate, you need every inch of gas for sentries or there is no way you can hold your expo (barring maps with backdoor naturals and similar things).
In my experience in trying to bust a sentry expand after expanding myself, if it works it's because you screwed up your force fields. you should have at least 7-8 forcefields when I hit which can stall enough to get out 1 or 2 rounds of units and cannons. I think the most important thing is having a wall at your natural that lets you deny completely access to your ramp with 2-3 forcefields without having to actually retreat above the ramp.
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I think you're right. Usually I wall with my 4th and 5th gate/forge a little later. I prefer moving out and being aggressive, as opposed to turtle like I guess most tosses do. I guess that it makes sense to turtle vs an aggressive zerg.
For games that you've lost baneling busting off 1-base vs toss, how did you get countered?
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1. there 's this thing protoss players do when they move their army out of their base, kills off any lings idling in front of it and maybe the lings at the watchtower. Economy oriented zergs will only get 2-4 lings early on, and by killing these lings, you force him to remake those lings. More realistically, he'll make many more lings to account for the possibly that your army is actually on its way to attack, whereas you just pull back and continue to play defensively.
2. I think lots of sentries early is still strong against mass ling/baneling, you just have to be careful not to be too aggressive venturing out with them, as losing your sentries early on can be quite damaging. Templar also seem to be quite good, both with storms and later on archons which deal splash to lings.
Another thing that worked well against me when I tried ling/baneling vs toss is dts. With the ling/bane build, you go 3 bases before lair, so the 3rd can be vulnerable to dts. To make it worse, on many maps there are these stupid destructible rocks blocking the natural third, so the third that is actually taken is often far away.
3. Versus baneling bust, can't you just use your existing sentries to FF the ramp in order to buy time to get more sentries to FF longer? It seems that a lot of protoss players make something like 1-2 zealots and 6-8 sentries anyways when 3 gate expanding. If you have enough forcefields and a few ranged units, you can possibly trap his banelings between two forcefields on the ramp; losing many banelings for free can be quite devastating to the zerg's strategy.
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what league are you? this could be a forcefield usage issue.
FF hard counters banelings unless zerg has drop or ultras (to stomp FFs).
You should post a few of these replays of you losing vs ling/bane.
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It's mostly about ff control and turtling and faking pressure until you get your third up, which has to be walled off from attack paths w/ gateway+cannon while building up a large enough army where ling bane isn't as effective.
Emphasis on ff control. If you actually make more stalkers instead of zealots you can be fine if you have a big enough ball and ff + gs. Also zealots are almost usless vs zerg mid - late game. Rather spend those minerals on securing a third and 4th. I haven't tried this... but coudn't you ff the banes into a donut in theory and just deal with the lings?
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I'm also having some insane trouble with sling the sling, bling muta build. Only got 1 really viable replay and he never even got out any mutas in that game, but still his mass sling, bane ball owned me. Basically when poking out, "shark mode" as incontrol calls it (yes I know I am terrible at it and my army is in my base waaaay too much), he atks with sling bling and I more or less spam FFs. I try to enclose som blings to kill with my stalkers but my FF micro sukz so no luck there, and he just backs off waiting for the FFs to drop down. Soon after, I run out of energy and my army gets eaten up. After that he throws a bling drop on both my expands, killing almost all my workers (this in a matter of seconds, didn't have any time to react) and I do an all-in with a few HTs and whatever sentries I could scramble together, and again his banelings eat up my army and he takes home the game.
Ok so basically I can't find anywhere to upload it except this place and I can't find a direct link so you'll just have to use your ctrl+f function on your keyboard and find the replay uploaded by BeastEye on this page
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I'm having the same problem when the zerg opens sling bling.
In theory FF are great. But if he has great spawn for lots of cheap lings, LOTS of creep spread, you'll have a hell of a time pushing. Collossi are your opportunity but by the time you can get collossi out he can get infestors. FG nerf actually reduced the effectivness of this strat, but basically he does FG on your army and moves the blings in. You can't FF when you're fungaled, so 1 fungal or 2 chain fungals on your clumped sentries means that you lose the ball.
It is so difficult to get off enough FF, and even then what are you going to do? He can surround you with sling forcing FF on all sides, then back off and you can't retreat until your FF goes down at which point he can reengage your slow sentries.
Banelings are cost effective even against stalkers en masse. I pray that I do not see the day when a zerg surrounds my army with speedlings, forcing FF around my army, and then I see 20 overlords comming to rain blings on top of my trapped army...
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Let me quote something from this forum's RULES:
"For these threads it is absolutely required that you post a replay. No exceptions."
It takes like one minute to upload your replays to a website like sc2replayed.
I seriously hope you plan on editing them into your original post or get banned.
ANYWAY, without a replay I can give you generic information:
1. Scout with Probe as long as possible.
2. Determine whether it's a 1 base or 2 base all-in.
3. Use hallucinations to scout if he has speedlings.
4. Build gateways/etc below your ramp to help block natural and save forcefields.
5. Put Zealots in group 1, Stalkers/Sentries in group 2. Have group 2 focus Banelings one by one.
6. Place forcefields better or get Sentries early to save up energy.
7. If you scout an all-in, only chrono warpgates and cut probes asap.
8. If you scout an all-in, don't tech to Colossus or Voidrays.
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Banelings off of creep without baneling speed are quite slow, so you should be able to micro against them. I almost always 3 gate sentry expand, unless the zerg is doing something really cheesy like 1 base roaches or a 7 pool. If you scout speedling baneling, just go zealot sentry stalker, wait for Speelings to surround you, then FF around your army. The banelings will be stuck outside of your FF's and the speedlings will be inside. A good force of 8-10 sentries with maybe 4-5 stalkers and 4-5 zealots can hold a huge speedling baneling army. Where you engage is equally important. Stay against walls so they can't surround your entire army, and when the waves are no longer difficult to hold off, you can push out. Use hallucination for sure to keep scouting in case they tech switch or switch to hard core macro. When I lose to this mix it's always when I make the mistake of fighting in the open before I gain a good advantage. Just play defensive on 2 bases and you should hold.
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I can agree with you 100% - I've played about 6 or 7 PvZ today and I think one did NOT go Banelings. Most were early busts but one mid/late game mass Banelings. So strange!? Has there been a televised match recently of this?
Anyway as mentioned above - Help threads now require replays or they will get closed, so it's recommended that you upload a replay pronto
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On April 05 2011 07:16 Sajuuk7 wrote:
Let me quote something from this forum's RULES:
"For these threads it is absolutely required that you post a replay. No exceptions."
It takes like one minute to upload your replays to a website like sc2replayed.
I seriously hope you plan on editing them into your original post or get banned.
My bad, I forgot to upload and the 20 games or so I spent getting trashed by terrans completely wiped out all of the replays I have of the losses. Anyway, the stuff in the replies did help me out, I've held off all the baneling busts that came my way today. I think the problem was me getting to greedy and expanding too early, without getting enough sentries.
On April 04 2011 15:27 BlasiuS wrote:
what league are you? this could be a forcefield usage issue.
FF hard counters banelings unless zerg has drop or ultras (to stomp FFs).
You should post a few of these replays of you losing vs ling/bane.
I'm in Masters but my FF usage is decent but isn't perfect yet (seeing how I keep getting roflstomped by early M&M pushes.
On April 05 2011 09:12 jarrydesque wrote:I can agree with you 100% - I've played about 6 or 7 PvZ today and I think one did NOT go Banelings. Most were early busts but one mid/late game mass Banelings. So strange!? Has there been a televised match recently of this? Anyway as mentioned above - Help threads now require replays or they will get closed, so it's recommended that you upload a replay pronto
I've solved my problem, so I guess this thread should be closed in any case. Wish I had kept some of those replays.
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As for the early bust that happens before you have more than 1 or 2 sentries out (depending on whether you got an early stalker or not), you shouldn't forcefield to protect your building (forge is usually the target) - you won't be able to maintain that anyway - just wait for them to bust it and then forcefield the gap to prevent speedlings from entering. FF should last long enough for you to plug the gap with a new building.
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EPT
