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On March 24 2011 00:10 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 22:08 sleepingdog wrote:
I will try to use DTs more often in mid to lategame. For once it forces terran to either get a raven or to constantly scan. Also DTs provide cheaper archons and archons are actually quite good vs clumped up vikings, especially with attack upgrades. Furthermore, DTs are awsome for drop-defense, since terran has to sacrifice a scan just to make the drop worth it. I think I'll go with some sort of double forge colossus play (either bay before double forge or the tyler-style with double forge into bay). Get fast TC, double +2, blink and charge and go into lategame with chargelots/blinkstalkers/colossi/archons.
I've never been a huge fan of mass-phoenixes lategame and - as we could see in a recent tournament match (*cough*) - 1-2 clutch EMPs just obliterate phoenixes that are meant to protect colossi. You will have to pick and choose wisely. Double forge losses to extremely aggressive builds (5rax with 3/4 Tech labs, 4rax Ghost). And you are VERY tight on gas mid game, if you try use DT's as defense you might cause more hard than good. At that point, when you are so gas restricted, it is far more beneficial for Terran to Scan and kill the DT because it is a 125gas that Protoss will never get back, but by not using a mule, he doesn't lose the minerals, just the income. Terran is reducing the Protoss's productions more by forcing DT's than he is by using Scans. Think they are great in some situations but liberal use might get you killed Double forge generally doesn't need DT's to defend anyway, since gateway units are pretty good, I think you will spread your self out too thin if you try, or be too zealot heavy and lose in the long run.
I think you have a different understanding of "mid to lategame" than I do.
I'm talking about the point in time where I have the double ups already started, have my colossi on way and have or am about to set up my third. Basicly the point where you'd normally start a transition to HTs. Therefore your arguments don't make much sense, because you could say the exact same things about teching to HTs. They are also very gas-heavy/etc. and still it was very do-able pre-1.3. What I meant was, that - very simply put - instead of going for a HT transition, I'll probably play around more with a DT transition, that's meant to be annoying and allow for +3 archons in the lategame-battles to kill vikings that are floating on top of my army, focussing the colossi.
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On March 23 2011 20:54 Dismantlethethroat wrote:
No one here plays protoss. That much is clear. Zealots vs marauders? On what planet? Phoenixes vs Vikings? With marines pouring from every side? Collosi? Weeeeeelllll 20 vikings nullify that.
Charge lots counters marouders. And phoenix vikings.
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phoenix counter vikings, guess 1.3 buffed them secretly then?
On March 23 2011 23:18 Corvi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 21:31 freetgy wrote:On March 23 2011 20:36 Corvi wrote:
who does even play ht anymore?
gateway units+collossi+phoenix is unstoppable in an straight up fight. yeah guess thats why Nightend won against Boxer in TSL3 right? if u watched it closely, you would know that boxer was 50+ supply ahead and landed perfect emps.
no in the major deciding clashes it was always maxxed Army battles
G1:
M&M&M + Ghost + Vikings vs. Zealot/Sentry/Stalker/Colossus/Phoenix
and P lost badly ("P unstopple" -> my ass...)
G2:
M&M&M + Ghost + Vikings vs. Zealot/Sentry/Stalker/Colossus/Phoenix/HT
T lost because of the damage output of the Protoss, well bound to happen if Terran stays T1-2 all day long
G3:
see Game 1
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On March 24 2011 00:14 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 00:10 Dommk wrote:On March 23 2011 22:08 sleepingdog wrote:
I will try to use DTs more often in mid to lategame. For once it forces terran to either get a raven or to constantly scan. Also DTs provide cheaper archons and archons are actually quite good vs clumped up vikings, especially with attack upgrades. Furthermore, DTs are awsome for drop-defense, since terran has to sacrifice a scan just to make the drop worth it. I think I'll go with some sort of double forge colossus play (either bay before double forge or the tyler-style with double forge into bay). Get fast TC, double +2, blink and charge and go into lategame with chargelots/blinkstalkers/colossi/archons.
I've never been a huge fan of mass-phoenixes lategame and - as we could see in a recent tournament match (*cough*) - 1-2 clutch EMPs just obliterate phoenixes that are meant to protect colossi. You will have to pick and choose wisely. Double forge losses to extremely aggressive builds (5rax with 3/4 Tech labs, 4rax Ghost). And you are VERY tight on gas mid game, if you try use DT's as defense you might cause more hard than good. At that point, when you are so gas restricted, it is far more beneficial for Terran to Scan and kill the DT because it is a 125gas that Protoss will never get back, but by not using a mule, he doesn't lose the minerals, just the income. Terran is reducing the Protoss's productions more by forcing DT's than he is by using Scans. Think they are great in some situations but liberal use might get you killed Double forge generally doesn't need DT's to defend anyway, since gateway units are pretty good, I think you will spread your self out too thin if you try, or be too zealot heavy and lose in the long run. I think you have a different understanding of "mid to lategame" than I do. I'm talking about the point in time where I have the double ups already started, have my colossi on way and have or am about to set up my third. Basicly the point where you'd normally start a transition to HTs. Therefore your arguments don't make much sense, because you could say the exact same things about teching to HTs. They are also very gas-heavy/etc. and still it was very do-able pre-1.3. What I meant was, that - very simply put - instead of going for a HT transition, I'll probably play around more with a DT transition, that's meant to be annoying and allow for +3 archons in the lategame-battles to kill vikings that are floating on top of my army, focussing the colossi.
But High Templars do real damage, if you warp in a HT and Storm a drop or killed off/emptied a medivac, then it paid for it self well. If you warp-in a DT and before it can get two hits in, it is scanned and killed, it is wasted Gas. If Terran could negate High Templars that easily, they would.
With less High Templars mixed in late game, the less Ghosts that Terran will need and the stronger their army will be overall if you include the fact that you just lost four+ Storms that you would have had otherwise.
You can't fill the hole of HT transition with DT's because they just aren't comparable. HT's did amazing damage, it is near impossible to get that level of efficiency out of DT's. You can't remotely expect to do as well with DT's as you can with HT's, you need to compensate for the loss of Warp-in Storms with actually efficiency, DT's don't do that, a second or third Robo might, maybe three Starports instead of two, more air ugprades, more warpgates, heck even shield upgrade. Those are things that fill the void much better than DT's.
You can go DT's along with it, but it shouldn't be your priority
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Sides have changed, go for a timing push when you have 2-3 cols or things will get harder and harder.
I dont see Protoss having big changes in late game.
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On March 24 2011 00:34 Dommk wrote:
You can't fill the hole of HT transition with DT's because they just aren't comparable. HT's did amazing damage, it is near impossible to get that level of efficiency out of DT's. You can't remotely expect to do as well with DT's as you can with HT's, you need to compensate for the loss of Warp-in Storms with actually efficiency, DT's don't do that, a second or third Robo might, maybe three Starports instead of two, more air ugprades, more warpgates, heck even shield upgrade. Those are things that fill the void much better than DT's.
i wouldn't be so fast to say that, if you warp in 3-4 DTs they can clean up a drop pretty good.
Also they would need to realize it fast or they will lose the units pretty fast.
As odd as this sounds DT are more durable as Stalkers cause they are classified light instead of armored and have less health but their sick dps makes up for that.
i don't know how it would work out with more than 1 medivac but a standard M&M Drop could be cleanable with DTs.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:34 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 00:14 sleepingdog wrote:On March 24 2011 00:10 Dommk wrote:On March 23 2011 22:08 sleepingdog wrote:
I will try to use DTs more often in mid to lategame. For once it forces terran to either get a raven or to constantly scan. Also DTs provide cheaper archons and archons are actually quite good vs clumped up vikings, especially with attack upgrades. Furthermore, DTs are awsome for drop-defense, since terran has to sacrifice a scan just to make the drop worth it. I think I'll go with some sort of double forge colossus play (either bay before double forge or the tyler-style with double forge into bay). Get fast TC, double +2, blink and charge and go into lategame with chargelots/blinkstalkers/colossi/archons.
I've never been a huge fan of mass-phoenixes lategame and - as we could see in a recent tournament match (*cough*) - 1-2 clutch EMPs just obliterate phoenixes that are meant to protect colossi. You will have to pick and choose wisely. Double forge losses to extremely aggressive builds (5rax with 3/4 Tech labs, 4rax Ghost). And you are VERY tight on gas mid game, if you try use DT's as defense you might cause more hard than good. At that point, when you are so gas restricted, it is far more beneficial for Terran to Scan and kill the DT because it is a 125gas that Protoss will never get back, but by not using a mule, he doesn't lose the minerals, just the income. Terran is reducing the Protoss's productions more by forcing DT's than he is by using Scans. Think they are great in some situations but liberal use might get you killed Double forge generally doesn't need DT's to defend anyway, since gateway units are pretty good, I think you will spread your self out too thin if you try, or be too zealot heavy and lose in the long run. I think you have a different understanding of "mid to lategame" than I do. I'm talking about the point in time where I have the double ups already started, have my colossi on way and have or am about to set up my third. Basicly the point where you'd normally start a transition to HTs. Therefore your arguments don't make much sense, because you could say the exact same things about teching to HTs. They are also very gas-heavy/etc. and still it was very do-able pre-1.3. What I meant was, that - very simply put - instead of going for a HT transition, I'll probably play around more with a DT transition, that's meant to be annoying and allow for +3 archons in the lategame-battles to kill vikings that are floating on top of my army, focussing the colossi. But High Templars do real damage, if you warp in a HT and Storm a drop or killed off/emptied a medivac, then it paid for it self well. If you warp-in a DT and before it can get two hits in, it is scanned and killed, it is wasted Gas. If Terran could negate High Templars that easily, they would. With less High Templars mixed in late game, the less Ghosts that Terran will need and the stronger their army will be overall if you include the fact that you just lost four+ Storms that you would have had otherwise. You can't fill the hole of HT transition with DT's because they just aren't comparable. HT's did amazing damage, it is near impossible to get that level of efficiency out of DT's. You can't remotely expect to do as well with DT's as you can with HT's, you need to compensate for the loss of Warp-in Storms with actually efficiency, DT's don't do that, a second or third Robo might, maybe three Starports instead of two, more air ugprades, more warpgates, heck even shield upgrade. Those are things that fill the void much better than DT's. You can go DT's along with it, but it shouldn't be your priority
You can't do that, they took kaydarin amulet out of the game. No more warp in storming drops.
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On March 24 2011 00:34 Dommk wrote:
You can't fill the hole of HT transition with DT's because they just aren't comparable. HT's did amazing damage, it is near impossible to get that level of efficiency out of DT's. You can't remotely expect to do as well with DT's as you can with HT's, you need to compensate for the loss of Warp-in Storms with actually efficiency, DT's don't do that, a second or third Robo might, maybe three Starports instead of two, more air ugprades, more warpgates, heck even shield upgrade. Those are things that fill the void much better than DT's.
Umm....I'm aware of the fact that DTs won't be able to replace HTs lol. But saying, for instance, that stargates are the answer is also highly speculative. TSL spoilers incoming:
+ Show Spoiler +White-Ra basicly won his game on shakuras due to archons dealing insane splash-damage to vikings. He made them out of HTs but didn't get storm-tech, so making archons from DTs would have been cheaper. On the other hand, Nightend lost his games vs Boxer with mass-phoenixes that were supposed to buffer the vikings. After seeing the game from white-ra I have to say I have certainly underestimated the strength of archons vs vikings. And regarding drop-defense, DTs do in fact make dropping really painful for terran. Because not only does he have to waste a scan, but he needs to be 100% aware of the fact that there are DTs, otherwise the dropped units will die basicly instantly.
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On March 24 2011 00:27 freetgy wrote:phoenix counter vikings, guess 1.3 buffed them secretly then? Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 23:18 Corvi wrote:On March 23 2011 21:31 freetgy wrote:On March 23 2011 20:36 Corvi wrote:
who does even play ht anymore?
gateway units+collossi+phoenix is unstoppable in an straight up fight. yeah guess thats why Nightend won against Boxer in TSL3 right? if u watched it closely, you would know that boxer was 50+ supply ahead and landed perfect emps. no in the major deciding clashes it was always maxxed Army battles G1: M&M&M + Ghost + Vikings vs. Zealot/Sentry/Stalker/Colossus/Phoenix and P lost badly ("P unstopple" -> my ass...) G2: M&M&M + Ghost + Vikings vs. Zealot/Sentry/Stalker/Colossus/Phoenix/HT T lost because of the damage output of the Protoss, well bound to happen if Terran stays T1-2 all day long G3: see Game 1
I guess having 40 supply in 0 energy phoenix is kind've a liablity.
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exactly, Phoenix are good as long as they have energy, i don't like them in PvT at all, they are fine for a harass unit, but a combat unit? no
Vikings are on par with them and cost less gas have better range and can be build faster.
I mean in such a Battle what do phoenix do? they are their to tank for the Colossus, but that logic goes from a Terran play who can't focus fire.
Obviously if you Focus Fire the Colossus will die if Phoenix are on the field or not. So the Phoenix only can be used to kill the Vikings while they deal with Colossus to get an Air Superiority.
The question is, does this give us anything? G1 shows, phoenix may give you Air Superiority after the engagement but without Energy that are 20-40 supply that are doing basically nothing to benefiting you. Just read the decision why Boxer got the win after disconnect.
(it is actually the same problem Zerg has with Corrupters who also can't shoot down, after they got air superiority)
It may actually be way smarter to get Voidrays instead of Phoenix, cause they deal better with vikings but are useful after a fight.
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dont let all your templars be EMPd? spread out
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That's the same as saying you don't need ghosts for templar cuz you can just spread out your MMM.
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EPT
