Tunneling Claws can get around the Forcefields, but that requires Lair tech >_<.

Perhaps the biggest weapon against Protoss would be to do Zerglings/Metabolic Boost "deception" (I've been doing Spine Crawler x2 instead of Ling/Boost), if nothing more than to have them have to plan for Speedlings and hopefully scare them off of Sentries?

It may just be that this build isn't as powerful in ZvP as ZvT, and as such, shouldn't be used heavily. I do agree that there is something that we're missing, but I can't put my finger on it as well...

AngryBear

United States32 Posts

March 17 2011 04:43 GMT

#22

Here's a replay of ZvP with this BO:

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/151024-1v1-protoss-zerg-backwater-gulch

My opponent went for a fast Colossus and didn't wall off his ramp. Instead, he decided to wall in his Probes and surround them with his buildings. I found a weak spot (his Extractor), blew that up, and snuck in a few Roaches to start taking them down while I picked apart his buildings. He did get his Colossus up, but 5 Roaches quickly took that down.

He didn't scout, and he had one Sentry.

morimacil

France921 Posts

March 17 2011 07:58 GMT

#23

by not getting queens initially, and temporarily halting drone production

It doesnt really seem like you ever end up getting queens, or resuming drone production, just seems more like quite a strong all-in than an agressive opening that you would want to transition out of.
Seems good vs terran, I like it, but how does it fare when the opponent actually sticks around to scout with his initial SCV?
The benefit of getting a queen in situations like these, afaik, is that you can start it right after pool finishes, along with some lings, chase the SCV out of your base or kill it, and start the roach warren slightly later, but due to the larva boost from the inject, still have around the same number of roaches at around the same time.
With your build, it seems like if the SCV sticks around, it would get to scout your roach warren, or would significantly delay it, and thus delay your roach push significantly too.

And about ZvP: If you scout a forge fast expand, on a map with an open natural, I think this could be good, but as for a 3/4 gate, its not a great idea to try and bust them early, usually.
You tend to be better off droning up a bit more, and then denying the expo in a 3gate, or crushing the push in a 4gate.
At least thats my experience, its very easy to crush a 3gate expand if the toss was a little too greedy (most of them are these days), or has bad building placement, and so on. But as for actually managing to get into his main, well that is just not going to happen most of the time.

ChefStarCraft

Canada350 Posts

March 17 2011 10:50 GMT

#24

This is really interesting, makes you think about all the possible variations of building times.
Zerg has a long way to go before its fully figured out.

AngryBear

United States32 Posts

March 17 2011 15:47 GMT

#25

On March 17 2011 16:58 morimacil wrote:
And about ZvP: If you scout a forge fast expand, on a map with an open natural, I think this could be good, but as for a 3/4 gate, its not a great idea to try and bust them early, usually.
You tend to be better off droning up a bit more, and then denying the expo in a 3gate, or crushing the push in a 4gate.
At least thats my experience, its very easy to crush a 3gate expand if the toss was a little too greedy (most of them are these days), or has bad building placement, and so on. But as for actually managing to get into his main, well that is just not going to happen most of the time.

After playing this a few more times against Protoss, I think that this insight is on point. It's much easier to deny the expo and use the Roaches to push back the 4gate rush than to try and bust through your opponent. Maybe we've been trying to find the "magic bullet" that would allow this build to take out Protoss like it takes out Terran, when in actuality, there is not "magic bullet" this early in the game. I've had much more success with the Roaches taking out an expo and then retreating that I have trying to force them into the Protoss base (especially if your opponent decides to cannon block their base).

In almost every Protoss game I've played with this build, if I haven't been able to kill my opponent with the rush, they've immediately switched to Void Rays. There's a time period where this build will get annihilated by air, because you're building Roaches and have no Queens by the time your first wave of Roaches is done. I have found it necessary to start your Queens almost immediately after you start your last set of Roaches in order to have something to defend with in case they decide to send 1 or 2 VR's your way. I've played with transitioning into Hydras, but because this build sacrifices your macro, you need to play almost perfectly between 6 and 10 minutes in order to get your economy up to the point where you can pump out anti-air.

Would popping down a Evo after you start your Queens and then making some Spore Crawlers be better than Hydras? My only concern with that would be that you're still sacrificing building your economy for defense, and I'd anticipate having a difficult time having the minerals to do all of this.

P00RKID

United States424 Posts

March 18 2011 02:09 GMT

#26

No offense Angrybear, but what you were saying didn't make a lot of sense to me. I watched most the replays Micheal posted and what you were talking about didn't add up. Then I noticed your league in your profile. The matches you have at bronze aren't going to fit into the context of the games at higher leagues for other players.

We need more insight on this strategy from higher leagues, at least diamond and preferably Masters. I was planning on testing this out some and trying to find out anything I can and posting back if I find out anything useful.

michaelhasanalias

Korea (South)1231 Posts

March 19 2011 06:51 GMT

#27

I pretty much agree insofar as I've been testing, that I think there is no silver bullet for zvp, however it is VERY strong in fending off 4-gate, and demolishes the timing on 3-gate expand, because 8-11 roaches vs 6 sentries is no good for protoss.

It definitely can bust greedy or sloppy 3-gate expands or 4-gates, but keen players should be able to hold and come out ahead.

Winning with 4-gate vs this is a lost cause though, and good luck securing a timely expansion when the harassing roaches force most of your energy away.

DinoGG

14 Posts

April 01 2011 04:03 GMT

#28

I've been hit by this before (FE but really just use the hatch like a queen to all-in on roaches or banes followed by speedlings). It is because of it that goads me towards the secondary scouting mission to figure if zergy is being a nice droner zerg or a different kind of macro beast. One tell is the early BN or RW. I 1-gate into stargate all day long against zerg, but for this I just add another gateway and chronoboost gateway units. Ramp, choke is really about all you need PvZ to be just fine post early pool time.

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