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On March 05 2011 05:06 Keifru wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 04:50 [MLG]GCA wrote:
You're right, there is no skill involved in trying to cast Forcefields, use Blink micro and using Templar (which you should have agasint Infestors) to cast Feedback on Infestors all at the same time.
(...)using Infestors (which you should have agasinst High Templar) to cast Fungal Growth on High Templar all at the same time(...)
I think against high templars we zerg still need to learn to use neural parasite properly. There is nothing funnier (and more effective) than neural parasiting a templar and using it to feedback/storm the others.
Sadly i only ever managed to do this once in a 4v4.
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On March 05 2011 05:06 Keifru wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 04:50 [MLG]GCA wrote:
You're right, there is no skill involved in trying to cast Forcefields, use Blink micro and using Templar (which you should have agasint Infestors) to cast Feedback on Infestors all at the same time.
You're right, there is no skill involved in trying to cast Corruption, use Burrow micro and using Infestors (which you should have agasinst High Templar) to cast Fungal Growth on High Templar all at the same time. ^^ These are always fun to do. ^^
Except that he never said it took no skill to do that...
Anyway, nice idea, wonder if it will ever become relevant though.
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I don't get it, the OP found a micro heavy way to improve your unit's dps, and people complain that it's too hard to do  This is what makes starcraft a game that requires skill, not mindless button mashing.
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Infestors definately look to be a nice addition against the stalker ball with the addition as their damage will actually add up. Roach infestor corruptor will be much better then roach hydra infestor probably because infestors do their damage much quicker in a fight and it matters less that they die to colossi.
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On March 05 2011 05:20 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 05:06 Keifru wrote:On March 05 2011 04:50 [MLG]GCA wrote:
You're right, there is no skill involved in trying to cast Forcefields, use Blink micro and using Templar (which you should have agasint Infestors) to cast Feedback on Infestors all at the same time.
(...)using Infestors (which you should have agasinst High Templar) to cast Fungal Growth on High Templar all at the same time(...) I think against high templars we zerg still need to learn to use neural parasite properly. There is nothing funnier (and more effective) than neural parasiting a templar and using it to feedback/storm the others. Sadly i only ever managed to do this once in a 4v4.
I say Fungal instead of Neural Parasite for 2 reasons.
1) 2 fungals will pretty much wipe a clump of HTs
2) NP has range 9, while Fungal has 11; the circle's radius being 2, giving it that extra 2.
If you can NP the HT, he can Feedback you; its just whoever can click first. Yet storm only has a 1.5 radius, so you have a .5 'safe' zone to Fungal and they can't storm in retaliation.
And when you have 3/3 broodlings, HT's being at about 5 health is as good as dead (Storm doesnt do much to broodlords as it happens...)
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On March 05 2011 05:42 swim224 wrote:I don't get it, the OP found a micro heavy way to improve your unit's dps, and people complain that it's too hard to do This is what makes starcraft a game that requires skill, not mindless button mashing.
The problem is getting enough corrupters and infestors in your army to do this, I'd say.
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On March 05 2011 03:22 ckukner wrote:
Even though it becomes balanced, it is still unfair for zerg because he will need to corrupt each unit manually and fungal at the same time also injecting while protoss just needs to a move his ball.
Corruption should be a kind of AOE spell at least then protoss would even bother to spread his troops.
rofl yeah man, zerg have it way harder than protoss when it comes to unit control
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The problem with corruption is that there is no skill required to use it. Hear me out here: there is no skill required to make the decision about what to do with your corruptors. You always want to corrupt the highest-value units that you will be firing on in the enemy ball. This, in practice, means colossi first, then immortals or vr, then stalkers. This doesn't require any skill to do; it just requires APM.
Thus, corruption is just an APM sink. It is something that involves no actual tactical decision-making; it's just something you do with any extra APM you have. Trouble is, there are usually more pressing things for you to do with that APM: burrow roaches under forcefields, transfuse things (one transfuse heals more hp than one corruption deals), move skirmish groups of lings around, neural things, fungal things, poop creep, inject, macro, drop baneling bombs, manage muta harass forces, etc. Once in a while -- corruptors vs. colossi with nothing else involved -- corruption is the best use of that APM. Usually it's not.
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On March 05 2011 05:47 Keifru wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 05:20 Morfildur wrote:On March 05 2011 05:06 Keifru wrote:On March 05 2011 04:50 [MLG]GCA wrote:
You're right, there is no skill involved in trying to cast Forcefields, use Blink micro and using Templar (which you should have agasint Infestors) to cast Feedback on Infestors all at the same time.
(...)using Infestors (which you should have agasinst High Templar) to cast Fungal Growth on High Templar all at the same time(...) I think against high templars we zerg still need to learn to use neural parasite properly. There is nothing funnier (and more effective) than neural parasiting a templar and using it to feedback/storm the others. Sadly i only ever managed to do this once in a 4v4. I say Fungal instead of Neural Parasite for 2 reasons. 1) 2 fungals will pretty much wipe a clump of HTs 2) NP has range 9, while Fungal has 11; the circle's radius being 2, giving it that extra 2. If you can NP the HT, he can Feedback you; its just whoever can click first. Yet storm only has a 1.5 radius, so you have a .5 'safe' zone to Fungal and they can't storm in retaliation. And when you have 3/3 broodlings, HT's being at about 5 health is as good as dead (Storm doesnt do much to broodlords as it happens...)
Yes, and don't forget that with Fungal being a projectile its "maximum possible" range can be even higher if the target is moving towards the infestor at the time he fires the fungal, increasing the range by a factor based on the speed of the approachings units.
So while potentially easy to dodge by your opponent (if he is paying attention!) the maximum range of a fungal is probably around 11 - 15 when used on targets moving directly towards the infestor. The most extreme example would be the speedy phoenix! Tests would have to be done, but if you spotted incoming phoenix on a predictable trajectory, the infestor could "release" the projectile from something crazy like range 18 and still hit the phoenix. haha, theory craft, gotta love it...
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It sounds like it could be useful for zerg to use corruption + multiple fungals on a big protoss army before moving in to attack.
The problem is that corruption has a range of 6, which requires corruptors to move within range of voids & stalkers in order to cast corruption. Do you want to take damage and/or lose corruptors in order to get off a few corruptions?
The best corruption targets are the big units with lots of hp: voids & colossus. These are also the units that can shrug off fungals the best.
HOWEVER
I can definitely see 2-3 full energy infestors doing quite a bit of FG damage on a maxed protoss army; after all, stalkers, void rays, and colossus are ALL armored. For example, 3 infestors with at least 150 energy is enough for 6 FGs, that can potentially do tons of damage; using corruption first sounds difficult, but possibly doable.
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On March 05 2011 06:12 Johnny_Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 05:47 Keifru wrote:On March 05 2011 05:20 Morfildur wrote:On March 05 2011 05:06 Keifru wrote:On March 05 2011 04:50 [MLG]GCA wrote:
You're right, there is no skill involved in trying to cast Forcefields, use Blink micro and using Templar (which you should have agasint Infestors) to cast Feedback on Infestors all at the same time.
(...)using Infestors (which you should have agasinst High Templar) to cast Fungal Growth on High Templar all at the same time(...) I think against high templars we zerg still need to learn to use neural parasite properly. There is nothing funnier (and more effective) than neural parasiting a templar and using it to feedback/storm the others. Sadly i only ever managed to do this once in a 4v4. I say Fungal instead of Neural Parasite for 2 reasons. 1) 2 fungals will pretty much wipe a clump of HTs 2) NP has range 9, while Fungal has 11; the circle's radius being 2, giving it that extra 2. If you can NP the HT, he can Feedback you; its just whoever can click first. Yet storm only has a 1.5 radius, so you have a .5 'safe' zone to Fungal and they can't storm in retaliation. And when you have 3/3 broodlings, HT's being at about 5 health is as good as dead (Storm doesnt do much to broodlords as it happens...) Yes, and don't forget that with Fungal being a projectile its "maximum possible" range can be even higher if the target is moving towards the infestor at the time he fires the fungal, increasing the range by a factor based on the speed of the approachings units. So while potentially easy to dodge by your opponent (if he is paying attention!) the maximum range of a fungal is probably around 11 - 15 when used on targets moving directly towards the infestor. The most extreme example would be the speedy phoenix! Tests would have to be done, but if you spotted incoming phoenix on a predictable trajectory, the infestor could "release" the projectile from something crazy like range 18 and still hit the phoenix. haha, theory craft, gotta love it...
You are assuming the entire ball is just a-moving towards a position- which you must guess- without an observer checking ahead. However, it is not possible to do this maneuver while engaging a deathball, as they won't be moving- stationary they can pop the infestor (maybe before it gets it off- I'd peg it as 25/75 the infestor lives vs dies). You need...what, 8 chain'd fungals to make this sacrifice worth it (more than that because not all of them will be stuck in the fungal, and straggling stalkers can sit in front to prevent chaining of fungals- attempt to engage forward stalkers and you come inside range of colossus, etc.)
Hitting a phoenix with Fungal I would peg as more of a luck shot than skill shot, considering their speed. . .
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On March 05 2011 06:12 BlasiuS wrote:
The problem is that corruption has a range of 6, which requires corruptors to move within range of voids & stalkers in order to cast corruption. Do you want to take damage and/or lose corruptors in order to get off a few corruptions?
From my experience, and some of the pro replays I've been watching lately (Idra vs Squirtle) I think its pretty common to send your corruptors in a little bit ahead of the rest of your army anyway. Colossus kills your ground army much faster than stalkers/voids can kill Corruptors, so this seems to makes sense most of the time.
Idra seems to favor sending in the corruptors first, casting corruption (he actually uses it!), and then following that up with the rest of his army. Perhaps things change depending on the Colossus/Void/Stalker ratio though, and I'm sure there are situations where you want your entire army engaging at the same time.
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On March 05 2011 06:21 Keifru wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 06:12 Johnny_Vegas wrote:On March 05 2011 05:47 Keifru wrote:On March 05 2011 05:20 Morfildur wrote:On March 05 2011 05:06 Keifru wrote:On March 05 2011 04:50 [MLG]GCA wrote:
You're right, there is no skill involved in trying to cast Forcefields, use Blink micro and using Templar (which you should have agasint Infestors) to cast Feedback on Infestors all at the same time.
(...)using Infestors (which you should have agasinst High Templar) to cast Fungal Growth on High Templar all at the same time(...) I think against high templars we zerg still need to learn to use neural parasite properly. There is nothing funnier (and more effective) than neural parasiting a templar and using it to feedback/storm the others. Sadly i only ever managed to do this once in a 4v4. I say Fungal instead of Neural Parasite for 2 reasons. 1) 2 fungals will pretty much wipe a clump of HTs 2) NP has range 9, while Fungal has 11; the circle's radius being 2, giving it that extra 2. If you can NP the HT, he can Feedback you; its just whoever can click first. Yet storm only has a 1.5 radius, so you have a .5 'safe' zone to Fungal and they can't storm in retaliation. And when you have 3/3 broodlings, HT's being at about 5 health is as good as dead (Storm doesnt do much to broodlords as it happens...) Yes, and don't forget that with Fungal being a projectile its "maximum possible" range can be even higher if the target is moving towards the infestor at the time he fires the fungal, increasing the range by a factor based on the speed of the approachings units. So while potentially easy to dodge by your opponent (if he is paying attention!) the maximum range of a fungal is probably around 11 - 15 when used on targets moving directly towards the infestor. The most extreme example would be the speedy phoenix! Tests would have to be done, but if you spotted incoming phoenix on a predictable trajectory, the infestor could "release" the projectile from something crazy like range 18 and still hit the phoenix. haha, theory craft, gotta love it... You are assuming the entire ball is just a-moving towards a position- which you must guess- without an observer checking ahead. However, it is not possible to do this maneuver while engaging a deathball, as they won't be moving- stationary they can pop the infestor (maybe before it gets it off- I'd peg it as 25/75 the infestor lives vs dies). You need...what, 8 chain'd fungals to make this sacrifice worth it (more than that because not all of them will be stuck in the fungal, and straggling stalkers can sit in front to prevent chaining of fungals- attempt to engage forward stalkers and you come inside range of colossus, etc.) Hitting a phoenix with Fungal I would peg as more of a luck shot than skill shot, considering their speed. . .
Forgive me if I wasn't clear, I only mean the first fungal has a longer effective range, and ONLY if your target is moving towards the infestor. Agreed, after the target stops moving, their is no range advantage. In fact, if the target is moving away, the infestor has a lower effective range.
As for your comment on "8 chained fungals", I'm not saying you are going to take on the entire Protoss army with a few corruptors and some infestors... you are also going to have your regular ground army. I never intended for fungal to be the only source of damage that you use to kill Colossus, I only used that as an isolated example to show the power of Corruption + Fungal with PTR 1.3.
Realistically Fungal + Corruption would just contribute to taking down the protoss death ball, you are also going to have corruptors shooting the colossus, roaches, baneling drops, basically whatever zerg do right now to fight it.
I was just providing some data of the DPS and the like, its up to those brave, skilled, zerg players to decide if its actually usable in a real game.
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On March 05 2011 05:56 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 03:22 ckukner wrote:
Even though it becomes balanced, it is still unfair for zerg because he will need to corrupt each unit manually and fungal at the same time also injecting while protoss just needs to a move his ball.
Corruption should be a kind of AOE spell at least then protoss would even bother to spread his troops. rofl yeah man, zerg have it way harder than protoss when it comes to unit control
army control is more difficult for zerg than protoss, though unit control is harder for toss.
controlling the group of units with zerg requires flanking and great positioning. while with protoss it's mstly making sure your units are all attacking.
individual unit control for protoss is intensely more difficult, blink micro, storm, feedback, merge, forcefield ect.
EDIT: also corruption + fungal will be by far more useful on units like stalkers, immortals, void rays due to their either shield strength (immortal) or lower hp.
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On March 05 2011 06:36 PrinceXizor wrote:
EDIT: also corruption + fungal will be by far more useful on units like stalkers, immortals, void rays due to their either shield strength (immortal) or lower hp.
Agreed corruption + fungal is great on immortals because it bypasses the hardened shield, but are you saying its more useful to corrupt + fungal stalkers than Colossus? It might vary based on the situation of course, but corruption on a Colossus can inflict a total of 70 damage, while on a Stalker it can only account for 32 damage.
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On March 05 2011 06:22 Johnny_Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 06:12 BlasiuS wrote:
The problem is that corruption has a range of 6, which requires corruptors to move within range of voids & stalkers in order to cast corruption. Do you want to take damage and/or lose corruptors in order to get off a few corruptions?
From my experience, and some of the pro replays I've been watching lately (Idra vs Squirtle) I think its pretty common to send your corruptors in a little bit ahead of the rest of your army anyway. Colossus kills your ground army much faster than stalkers/voids can kill Corruptors, so this seems to makes sense most of the time. Idra seems to favor sending in the corruptors first, casting corruption (he actually uses it!), and then following that up with the rest of his army. Perhaps things change depending on the Colossus/Void/Stalker ratio though, and I'm sure there are situations where you want your entire army engaging at the same time.
I think the OP's idea is to cast corruption, then follow it up by chaining as many FGs as you can before attacking at all with your main army, thus maximizing FG damage and weakening the army as much as possible before attacking.
If you just corruption then immediately attack, you're not really abusing the power of the FG/corruption combo.
edit: just realized YOU are the OP  so is that what you intended?
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I wonder how well this will work out when using the excess gas from a typical roach/hydra/corruptor build to turn it into a roach/infestor/corruptor build.
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On March 05 2011 06:57 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 06:22 Johnny_Vegas wrote:On March 05 2011 06:12 BlasiuS wrote:
The problem is that corruption has a range of 6, which requires corruptors to move within range of voids & stalkers in order to cast corruption. Do you want to take damage and/or lose corruptors in order to get off a few corruptions?
From my experience, and some of the pro replays I've been watching lately (Idra vs Squirtle) I think its pretty common to send your corruptors in a little bit ahead of the rest of your army anyway. Colossus kills your ground army much faster than stalkers/voids can kill Corruptors, so this seems to makes sense most of the time. Idra seems to favor sending in the corruptors first, casting corruption (he actually uses it!), and then following that up with the rest of his army. Perhaps things change depending on the Colossus/Void/Stalker ratio though, and I'm sure there are situations where you want your entire army engaging at the same time. I think the OP's idea is to cast corruption, then follow it up by chaining as many FGs as you can before attacking at all with your main army, thus maximizing FG damage and weakening the army as much as possible before attacking. If you just corruption then immediately attack, you're not really abusing the power of the FG/corruption combo. edit: just realized YOU are the OP so is that what you intended?
I didn't get into that in my original post, it went beyond the scope of what I wanted to convey really. HOW you engage with infestors/corruptors is situational, so perhaps sometimes you do send them in alone without your main army (in the case of minimal anti-air), while other times you'll need the support of your ground army so your corruptors/infestors won't die too fast. My original post was all about the numbers, not the specifics of battle engagement, I'll leave that for the pros to solve!
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Always use Corruption, it's actually a really awesome spell. Wish it were not so hard to micro. Combo with FG is a great idea, good post.
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This might actually be pretty good trick against The Protoss Death Ball.
Especially against the Void Rays.
with Corruption Fungal a Void Ray takes 57 damage in 4 seconds AND is immobilized. 57 damage is 4 Corruptor shots.
It is also the DPS of two Corruptors attacking a Void Ray. This is some very nice synergy.
Thanks for the finding OP.
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EPT
