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I think many of us watched Morrow vs. Nightend yesterday in the TSL
where he lost in the lastgame, because he had the "wrong unit composition"
and much supply in Drones, while having many Ressources in Bank
(which effectivly lost him the Game.)
While watching that i realized something, and tested it afterwards.
well, i searched in the forum too look if anybody already mention the "trick" that i realized right now. (i have never seen any Zerg utilize it yet, but i see this beeing potential Game breaking)
I have no replay at hand to show you, but i tested it and it works!
I think everybody here is familiar with the Extractor Trick that allows you to
get more Supply before getting an Overlords.
This of course works because Zerg Supply deacreases while trying to build a building.
Now take a 200/200 situation, zerg stacks many larva and ressources on the bank.
Usually that leads to what we use to call the "300 food" push, where Zerg can remax instantly and stay 200/200 the whole time.
Now the Idea is to do the "extractor trick", to surpass the 200 food limit.
For that you only need to realize that it works for every Building that is in a building process!
looking at this, now Zerg can use as many drones as he wants to build the cheapest building he can afford (Spore Crawler that is = 75mins)
Example:
if we take 20 Drones and build 20 Spores it takes the zerg:
20*75 = 1500 minerals
thats usually easily affordable in lategame situation (where Zergs flood 3-4K minerals)
What happens Gamemechanic wise?
The Supply Drops to 180/200 during the building Process of the Spores now you can build additional 20 Supply of Army
i.e. 40 Zerglings (20*50 = 1000minerals)
after building Fightsupply you cancel the Spores.
This will give you back:
The 20 Drones
75% of the Minerals spend on Spores = 75% * 20 * 75 = 1125
and leaves you with an 220/200 Supply, while still having the superior economy.
essientially Zerg can build XX Drone + 200 Supply of Army as long as he has enough minerals to start Spores and building Units.
Costs for doing this:
Since you cancels the Spore Crawlers, you will get 75% of the minerals back making making the whole "Oversupply-Trick"
effective costs:
25%* 20 * 75 = 375minerals. (which is imho nothing)
EDIT
i didn't count that opportiunity cost in (lost mining time), but you could do this with Drones on a base that are mined out thus minizing the lost ressources alot, it certainly (for me) seems better than building even more Money in the bank. ("keep your money low","build more Supply")
of course 20 Drones isn't the limit, if you have enough money you can get even more Army like 230/240/250.
while still keeping the drones to keep your economy as high, instead of wasting them on useless buildings or sacrificing it.
With the Additional FightSupply you can do anything you want!
Harass? Get Banelings for additional dmg (i would favor this!!) ? get additional techunit to counter? Pick up Reinforcements?
This whole Trick will of course give you effectivly XX additional Fightsupply on the Field in Lategame where XX is the amount of Spores and Fightsupply you can afford after reaching 200/200.
This gives Macro Zergs even more strengh as it already has, which could give them an edge over the opponent (and could be Gamebreaking/Winning)
Didn't make a Video for it but it works...feel free to test it yourself.
I just find it odd that no "pro" has already has discoverd this, at least i couldn't find anything about this on the internet and have never seen it in games.
quintessence of the thread:
If Zergs gets maxxed, he can get even more fight supply surpassing that 200 limit.
The idea of course works in any matchup ZvX
where getting additional of a specific unit might give you an advantage in battles.
Ofcourse your main goal isn't to get 200+XX supply in a game, but it might be advandtageous do to so in certain situations -> discuss
generell
Advantage:
+ More additional Battle Supply, in maxxed situations -> better outcome in fights
+ No need so sacrifice units to free supply
Disadvantages:
- Costs of canceling buildings, lost mining time
- (more APM)
- possibly harder techswitch cause you need to get <200 supply to rebuild units.
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Or you could just stop making roaches at 180 food, and instead of grabbing 10 more roaches to max out, you could make 40 banelings and research OL speed and drops. Now your 200/200 army is twice as strong as the pure roach composition would have been!
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On February 21 2011 00:48 kcdc wrote:
Or you could just stop making roaches at 180 food, and instead of grabbing 10 more roaches to max out, you could make 40 banelings and research OL speed and drops. Now your 200/200 army is twice as strong as the pure roach composition would have been!
you can play as normal, max out with roaches (200/200), and still get the additional 40 Banelings.
that is the whole point of the "Oversupply-Trick" and it only costs you 375 minerals, in my example.
This gives hard macro reactive Zerg players quite an advantage imho.(since Zerg Macro excels both other Races)
since you have Additional XX Fightsupply which you wouldn't be able to build if you didn't sacrifice units to free supply, so this whole concept has no DRAWBACKS after you are Maxxed.
More Fightsupply on the Field = better Results in big Engagements in your Favor.
(while still keeping superior economy)
look at this with the Morrow Game in Mind, even after he had maxxed out he could have retreated, and build additional Fightsupply, instead of wasting his Army.
takeing your example Zerg could do what you said, stop at 180 food get 20 supply of banelings, and then get another additional 20 supply of banelings. (thus having 80 Banelings!)
This opens many possible Tactics in the future if it isn't going to be fixed.
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Hey, its an interesting idea, which I had honestly never conisdered.
How we use the supply is would be situational obviously.
The real discussion then becomes is it actually cost effective, or which situations is it cost effective. If I'm paying 4-500 minerals for an extra 20 supply (100 for 40, etc), and I still lose the head up battle I'm obviously even further behind.
I somewhat shockes me that I haven't seen any discussion on this, while my gut suggests that saving the money and just rebuilding after/durring the battle would be best, I'm not sure. I have to admit I don't often feel that in my lategame 200 vs 200 battles that an extra bit of supply would have won me the day... still worth thinking about
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Its already been discussed in other threads.
Its usually better to do it with spine crawlers, it costs a little more upfront, but it gives you an extra 20 seconds of build time, which can be crucial time. Telling 60 drones to build 60 crawlers, and then having them get to the place, and actually start building takes a surprisingly long time.
If you tell them to build spines instead, while the initial cost is slightly higher, you have more time. And if some of them do morph into spines before you can cancel, well having a bunch of spines in the middle of the map, or spread out at each base, is usually a lot more useful than having extra spore cralwers around.
Since you cancels the Spore Crawlers, you will get 75% of the minerals back making making the whole "Oversupply-Trick" cost you only effectivly
25%* 20 * 75 = 375minerals. (which is imho nothing)
Nope, thats wrong.
You are pulling a large amount of drones off mining. for 50-100 seconds.
Doing this costs you thousands of minerals and gas, even if you just bring all your drones together, run them around for a bit, and then send them back. the money lost by canceling buildings is just the tip of the iceberg.
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On February 21 2011 01:08 morimacil wrote:
Its usually better to do it with spine crawlers, it costs a little more upfront, but it gives you an extra 20 seconds of build time, which can be crucial time. Telling 60 drones to build 60 crawlers, and then having them get to the place, and actually start building takes a surprisingly long time.
If you tell them to build spines instead, while the initial cost is slightly higher, you have more time. And if some of them do morph into spines before you can cancel, well having a bunch of spines in the middle of the map, or spread out at each base, is usually a lot more useful than having extra spore cralwers around.
i understand your the reasoning, but i had no problem pulling that of
since you can cancel all building spores with one klick
You are pulling a large amount of drones off mining. for 50-100 seconds.
Doing this costs you thousands of minerals and gas, even if you just bring all your drones together, run them around for a bit, and then send them back. the money lost by canceling buildings is just the tip of the iceberg.
ok i didn't count that opportiunity cost in, but you could do this with Drones on a base that are mined out thus minizing the lost ressources alot, it certainly seems better than building even more Money in the bank. ('keep your money low')
Still having additional fight supply on the field is better imho than having Fightsupply building after losing supply in fights.
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is one 220 food army later in the game more effective than an earlier 200 food army and then a smaller army by a wide enough margin that it's worth the enormous inefficiency required to do this?
let's find out...
1...
2...
3
The answer is 3.
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i think its a good idea, paying 400 minerals for an extra 20 supply seems pretty worth it for zerg ^^
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but you're not paying 400 minerals in the simple terms that that wording implies, you're paying 1500 and getting 1100 back later. That delays the initial investment and ties up more resources
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So this is the situation:
A) You're maxed
B) You have a huge surplus of minerals.
Against an even opponent this means:
A) He's maxed.
I don't believe the strategy your suggesting is viable in that situation because:
As Zerg you DON'T want to engage huge army on huge army.
It's not like a 240 supply army beats a 200 supply Protoss ball anyway. You'll just lose even harder!
You want to counterattack, drop, flank and then resupply instantly. The extra supply doesn't matter for this.
If you get to 200 supply you're instant thought should be, let's throw 40 supply into his main base via drops.
He wont be fully upgraded at this point so hit the tech buildings, forges, templar buildings and stargates, robos etc...
If he moves his army back to engage you hit his nearest expo.
And you can make spine crawlers to defend key positions so that if he tries an all-in counter you can hold it.
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On February 21 2011 01:15 drewbie.root wrote:
i think its a good idea, paying 400 minerals for an extra 20 supply seems pretty worth it for zerg ^^
well making examples, ZvT
Muta/Bling/ling, how often you do see a big clash 200 vs. 200 where Zerg pushes out against terrans army survives barely (due to micro), and wins and Zerg desperatly tries to rebuild Army, while having his bases crushed.
now this additional 20 Supply (or More) equaling 40 Banelings or more, could tip the battle in favor of Zerg completely crushing the Terrans army.
Whole trick costs you effectivly ~ 19 minerals for each additional supply after 200.
Especially with upgraded Banelings which get very costeffective in masses i can see this viable.
Sure it isn't the instant win button, but it can give you an edge in a big macro game.
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I tried this out in games several months ago and found that it's much harder to do in game than it looks. It can mean the difference between win and loss in some situations but it's reaaaaaaaaaaally rare that you'll be in a situation where you can pull this off. I'd like to see if some pro's can do better with it than I could though.
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On February 21 2011 00:48 kcdc wrote:
Or you could just stop making roaches at 180 food, and instead of grabbing 10 more roaches to max out, you could make 40 banelings and research OL speed and drops. Now your 200/200 army is twice as strong as the pure roach composition would have been!
I second this notion.
Banelings work as a general 'everything' killer. They bolster any lategame army vs protoss so much.
But in combination with this oversupply trick, this might work to add a couple more roaches to your force before engaging.
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On February 21 2011 01:22 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 01:15 drewbie.root wrote:
i think its a good idea, paying 400 minerals for an extra 20 supply seems pretty worth it for zerg ^^ well making examples, ZvT Muta/Bling/ling, how often you do see a big clash 200 vs. 200 where Zerg pushes out against terrans army survives barely (due to micro), and wins and Zerg desperatly tries to rebuild Army, while having his bases crushed. now this additional 20 Supply (or More) equaling 40 Banelings or more, could tip the battle in favor of Zerg completely crushing the Terrans army. Whole trick costs you effectivly ~ 19 minerals for each additional supply after 200. Especially with upgraded Banelings which get very costeffective in masses i can see this viable. Sure it isn't the instant win button, but it can give you an edge in a big macro game. It DOES NOT effectively cost 19 minerals per supply. In fact, to reduce the cost of this to just minerals is naive; time is a better measurement.
Here's how it would play out: you max out as zerg. There are 2 cases, assuming your opponent isn't bad and sitting around doing nothing after reaching 200 before you.
1) you have 200 and your opponent does not. Let's assume your opponent is at 190, which is intentionally high to favor this technique (correct me if i'm wrong but i think zvt and zvp the zerg usually hits 200 when the t or p is at around 180). Now you're sitting around doing nothing while you build up over 2000 minerals. Meanwhile, your opponent who was at 190 is hitting 200 and spending his money on upgrades or unit producing structures instead of stockpiling it for more units. Once you get your 220 supply, you've increased your lead by 10 supply but you have all the money from canceled crawlers sitting in the bank while the opponent has been investing his money as it came in. So you've gone up 10 supply but lost position in upgrades and infrastructure.
Was it worth it? I've been making assumptions generally in favor of this technique the whole time. If the other player was at a lower supply, say 180, this trick is even less favorable. Now you're making 20 units while he makes 20 units, but you make yours 1500 minerals later while he spends it on upgrades! a clear loss.
2)you and the opponent both reach 200 at the same time. Your opponent just attacks you or builds tons of unit producing structures and upgrades while you stockpile money for 20 more supply. I don't think timing is in your favor here. A good opponent will know what you're up to, make sure the max army battle takes place near your base if not just attack right away, and use all the buildings he built (if he waited) to make reinforcements that can hold off your survivors. Then he's at an advantage with more infrastructure than you.
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@Yotta
thats true this isn't a get out of jail free card.
but it specifically refers to endgame situations (which seem to happen quite often), where Zerg is bound to collect more ressources than he can spend.
My idea just goes with the flow "Zerg need more masses"
I mean most of you would agree i think going into a fight with 240 Supply (thus more fightsupply)
is better than with less.
After the engagement , your opponent should have lost more than a 200vs.200 situation.
but you still have the better economy to wrap up.
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On February 21 2011 02:00 freetgy wrote:
@Yotta
thats true this isn't a get out of jail free card.
but it specifically refers to endgame situations, where Zerg is bound to collect more ressources than he can spend.
My idea just goes with the flow "Zerg need more masses"
I mean most of you would agree i think going into a fight with 240 Supply (thus more fightsupply)
is better than with less.
After the engagement , your opponent should have lost more than a 200vs.200 situation.
but you still have the better economy to wrap up.
He should be attacking and taking advantage of his quick unit reproduction abilities, not waiting around on max army to use his money less efficiently than his opponent.
Nobody ever said this was a get out of jail free card and that's not what I'm arguing against. I'm simply saying this is not viable at high level play.
Edited to accommodate your edit:
it's 240 supply now? Now you're saving up for 40 crawlers + 40 units of money before you see any return on your income. What is your opponent doing during this time?
I'd argue that by the time you're done amassing your inefficient army your opponent will have either already forced a 200v200 fight or surpassed you economically.
Edit at your post below me because I don't want end up having 10 posts from this discussion saying basically the same thing:
On February 21 2011 02:05 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 02:02 Yotta wrote:
Nobody ever said this was a get out of jail free card and that's not what I'm arguing against. I'm simply saying this is not viable at high level play. Well that is out of grasp of my understanding of Zerg Gameplay, so i don't want to argue that. sure in tense fights, where fights are happening left and right, this isn't going to be useful. But in those situations you won't have the money anyway to do it. Question is will this never be viable in endgame situations. again i could care less (<--- protoss player) just found this a very interesting trick that might me viable in certain situations.
I'm not trying to attack you and say your idea is stupid. It's pretty clever and I've never thought of it before now.
I am, however, saying that if both players are playing well this will not be useful, ever. I've outlined in my previous post why I think this won't work if you reach 200 a bit before your opponent and if you reach 200 as your opponent does. If your opponent hits 200 before you and lets you do this you're not playing a high level player. If you hit 200 way before your opponent you're giving up your advantage by making units inefficiently while your opponent makes his at normal efficiency. If you can think of a viable scenario for this I'll gladly accept it, but I just can't imagine one.
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On February 21 2011 02:02 Yotta wrote:
Nobody ever said this was a get out of jail free card and that's not what I'm arguing against. I'm simply saying this is not viable at high level play.
Well that is out of grasp of my understanding of Zerg Gameplay, so i don't want to argue that.
sure in tense fights, where fights are happening left and right, this isn't going to be useful.
But in those situations you won't have the money anyway to do it.
Question is will this never be viable in endgame situations.
again i could care less (<--- protoss player) just found this a very interesting trick that might me viable in certain situations.
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This is a great idea, more so in ZvT than ZvP imo but very useful nonetheless. The zerg usually doesn't lose because he's out of minerals. They mostly lose because they get crushed and don't manage to remax in time. Also you don't lose the minerals when you pull drones, you just get them later. The only minerals you are losing are the ones that you use to cancel the spore crawler. It might be hard to pull of in a real game, but if you manage to do it it's definetely worth it imo.
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On February 21 2011 02:02 Yotta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 02:00 freetgy wrote:
@Yotta
thats true this isn't a get out of jail free card.
but it specifically refers to endgame situations, where Zerg is bound to collect more ressources than he can spend. He should be attacking and taking advantage of his quick unit reproduction abilities, not waiting around on max army to use his money less efficiently than his opponent. Nobody ever said this was a get out of jail free card and that's not what I'm arguing against. I'm simply saying this is not viable at high level play.
I guess I'm just not sure its' something you can make such a blanket statement about.
I can see issues with it, but assuming your making the crawlers in your base to cancel, and you've got at last 100 apm then the lost mining cost could be kept to a reasonable minimum.
The real question is, are the situtations where extra supply is going to be cost effective.
my intiuition says there should be some, but not most situtaions, but I feel thats where the real discusion is.
I mean people, if there was an upgrade you could buy at hive tech, that increased your supply cap by 20 supply and cost 800 min, how many people would buy that?
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this is pretty solid imo
update us with the replay when you're free pls
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EPT
