EPTNice to see Piqliq coming out with more interesting builds
[D] PvZ mass phoenix/colossus/void ray - Page 2
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
Nice to see Piqliq coming out with more interesting builds | ||
|
ishboh
United States954 Posts
....it would also be hilarious | ||
|
Achaia
United States643 Posts
On February 15 2011 03:59 ishboh wrote: if he truly only really made collo/phoenix/void rays i feel like a spore crawler/ling push could do decently... ....it would also be hilarious Haha I don't know if this is viable but it would be hilarious to see! | ||
|
tmzu
58 Posts
Reaching a max army of pheonixes/vr/collosus takes a really long time and chances are the protoss will be lacking in one type of unit so you can just adjust accordingly. But ya i think the endgame composition to fight this is corruptors/roaches/broodlords. But to be honest if you let the protoss reach late game with that combo its pretty hard to win. | ||
|
Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On February 15 2011 03:59 ishboh wrote: if he truly only really made collo/phoenix/void rays i feel like a spore crawler/ling push could do decently... ....it would also be hilarious How are you going to break through canons with colossus behind them? One colossus per sim-citied expo would kill an almost infinite number of lings. | ||
|
Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On February 15 2011 04:30 tmzu wrote: pheonix/vr/collosus combos are definetly starting to become more common. Hydras are definetly not the correct response to phoenixes anymore. In fact id say you shouldnt even get a hydra den if u see phenoixes but instead get a spire and corruptors out as soon as possible. Roaches alone should be enough to deal with the gateway units. Reaching a max army of pheonixes/vr/collosus takes a really long time and chances are the protoss will be lacking in one type of unit so you can just adjust accordingly. But ya i think the endgame composition to fight this is corruptors/roaches/broodlords. But to be honest if you let the protoss reach late game with that combo its pretty hard to win. This makes the most sense to me, hydras are basically a waste of income that could otherwise have been more corruptors, which catz never had enough of. I curious if you did this though, how would toss be able to punish you for having basically no ground army. If he was able to hide ~6 gate ways for a minute or two it could prove to be a deadly tech switch. | ||
|
Offhand
United States1869 Posts
The chance for a mass backtech to warpgates is possible, but would lack blink or charge or ups or anything that makes gateway units viable lategame. | ||
|
Silmakuoppaanikinko
799 Posts
On February 15 2011 01:36 Offhand wrote: Well, if you overcommit he's already won, if he can force you to make so many hydras while he can scout just how many you have ...This is true but only in relatively equal numbers. The problem with phoenixes in most cases is that the zerg player can straight up out mass you most of the time. Against a phoenix/collo build, hyrdas are a bad idea. Corrupters fill the same role and are far more tanky (and only have to worry about voids). Hydras are good, but also easily counterable. On February 15 2011 02:15 BlasiuS wrote: Creep makes no real difference in a fight between them, creep is for the hydras to reach them.out in the open they are more or less equal, but on-creep with spore + queen nearby hydra > phoenix for sure, just a few hydras near each hatch is more than enough to deter phoenix harass long enough to get corruptors out. The point is that you will have to invest more money in hydras than he in phoenices to stop the harass, which is what makes the strategy so powerful, because while he harasses he can scout what you have and prepare diligently. Also, a good protoss player will use them in his main army later on, the phoenix really has a sick dps for cost versus light units. It also depends if you face one of those people who just makes 4 and keeps it at that or one of those turds like me who will literally get 30+ of them and will happily trade 5-10 of them just to lift every drone at an expansion. I loved that TLO game where he just threw down 3 starports and suddenly got there with 9 of them and eventually got like 24 of them, I think it was against MorroW, there was basically nothing he could do, he kept losing drone after drone. | ||
|
Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On February 15 2011 05:51 Offhand wrote: Well if you're going to mass corrupters (which I believe is the best reaction to this) you lack any kind of finisher. Broods are the most logical transition, and collo/void/phoenix production isn't going to leave any gas open for more tech. The chance for a mass backtech to warpgates is possible, but would lack blink or charge or ups or anything that makes gateway units viable lategame. Gateway units viable lategame is also assuming that zerg is upgrading a ground army too, I think a un-upgraded gateway army is going to be pretty viable against a zerg who is going pure corruptor, gas restrictions also kind of go out the window when you are on 3-4 base. Blink might be needed to shut down the transition to brood lord, but it is very cheap this late in the game, and protoss also has phoenix to help with that as well. I think it would all depend on what happens to the phoenix/void ray numbers vs. the corruptor numbers. Tech switches make the game more fun and interesting IMO, I'm really anxious to see this play out if it become more popular. | ||
|
freetgy
1720 Posts
1) scout stargate early 2) get more queens asap optional 3) get 1 spore for each mineral (depending on the map, queen count) if you can effectivly deny the first harass you already win the game. Phoenix as mutas need to deal damage to pay for them selfs, cause they suck. (phoenix are more expensiv than mutas (150/100), with less harassing capability!) stargate does a huge cut in ground army i.e. 1 Stargate +4 phoenix = 150/150 + 4*150/100 = 750/550 less in ground army. while 4 phoenix in the optimal case can do 4 kills every 88s, thats crap dmg output as far as i see. if you can keep your Queens and Overlords save. thats why lifting queens in most cases is the first priority. remember that those lifts need to be ready for counter pushes, so he shouldn't waste lifts too much on harassing economy. also Phoenix based army means actual free expansions, gain imho economy faster then phoenix can deal economy damage. | ||
|
Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On February 15 2011 06:37 freetgy wrote: i can tell you as protoss the counter, 1) scout stargate early 2) get more queens asap optional 3) get 1 spore for each mineral (depending on the map, queen count) if you can effectivly deny the first harass you already win the game. Phoenix as mutas need to deal damage to pay for them selfs. stargate does a huge cut in ground army, and you should be able to counter push easily with superior economy. This would force zerg into a hydra timing push, you don't want to attack canons backed up by phoenix without anti air, and is literally shut down complete once toss has one colossus. Sounds doable but you have a small window to scout that stargate before the harass starts. Ultimately you can't count on scouting everything early so you need a gameplan to play more reactively. | ||
|
BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On February 15 2011 06:00 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: Creep makes no real difference in a fight between them, creep is for the hydras to reach them. when you're running hydras back and forth between 3 bases to defend against phoenix, creep makes all the difference. Without creep you'd have to have enough hydras to defend all 3 bases at once, that's way too many hydras. That's part of the reason why hydras can defend phoenix cost-efficiently. On February 15 2011 01:29 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: The point is that you will have to invest more money in hydras than he in phoenices to stop the harass no you don't, hydras cost half the gas of a phoenix. a few hydras + queen + a spore at each base costs less gas than 5-6 phoenix. On February 15 2011 01:29 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote: which is what makes the strategy so powerful, because while he harasses he can scout what you have and prepare diligently. Also, a good protoss player will use them in his main army later on, the phoenix really has a sick dps for cost versus light units. It also depends if you face one of those people who just makes 4 and keeps it at that or one of those turds like me who will literally get 30+ of them and will happily trade 5-10 of them just to lift every drone at an expansion. "later on" zerg will have 3rd up and spire completed, at which point zerg will have corruptors to fight the phoenixes. Remember you're only making the minimum number of hydras to defend your 3 bases while you drone up your 3rd. After that it's corruptors. | ||
|
freetgy
1720 Posts
On February 15 2011 06:42 Treemonkeys wrote: This would force zerg into a hydra timing push, you don't want to attack canons backed up by phoenix without anti air, and is literally shut down complete once toss has one colossus. Sounds doable but you have a small window to scout that stargate before the harass starts. Ultimately you can't count on scouting everything early so you need a gameplan to play more reactively. true but that timing push works, cause you have alot more ground army, i wouldn't be even to much concerned about Phoenix, a P can never outproduce Z to lift you for ever, while you can outproduce him, it doesn't even has to be a hydra counter push imho. roaches are alot better since they don't die that quickly to either Phoenixes or Colossus. (they are alot harder to kill with phoenixes, so lifting only delays the inevitable) Phoenix as mutas are great to contain a scared player. but as the counter to mutas is 5 Gate pressure the same can be said to Z. Though this forces of course a more aggressiv gameplay Zerg need to realize how much phoenixes actually cut into their ground army/sentry count. i mean how does Z play against fast mutas? (sure it is alittle different cause mutas actually can shoot ground) | ||
|
Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On February 15 2011 06:46 BlasiuS wrote: "later on" zerg will have 3rd up and spire completed, at which point zerg will have corruptors to fight the phoenixes. Remember you're only making the minimum number of hydras to defend your 3 bases while you drone up your 3rd. After that it's corruptors. Wish I could post the replay, but this is basically what catz did. With constant phoenix production, the usual "minimum number" of hydras doesn't cut it, with enough phoenix toss is still able to zoom in and kill a queen or a few hydras and take minimal losses, abusing the fact the zerg needs hydras at three places to defend against a faster air unit. By the time corruptors were out, it was really too late. This wasn't phoenix harass that I had seen before, I couldn't see exactly what the toss was doing but it looked like constant phoenix production switched to void ray when corruptors show up. | ||
|
Amui
Canada10567 Posts
I played this style and I think the key is to mass corruptor/mutalisk. You also NEED to be 2-3 gas ahead because otherwise you can't remax on what you need to clean up. The goal is to kill the very expensive colossus and voidrays and then remax and clean up what's left. | ||
|
BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On February 15 2011 06:55 Treemonkeys wrote: Wish I could post the replay, but this is basically what catz did. With constant phoenix production, the usual "minimum number" of hydras doesn't cut it, with enough phoenix toss is still able to zoom in and kill a queen or a few hydras and take minimal losses, abusing the fact the zerg needs hydras at three places to defend against a faster air unit. By the time corruptors were out, it was really too late. This wasn't phoenix harass that I had seen before, I couldn't see exactly what the toss was doing but it looked like constant phoenix production switched to void ray when corruptors show up. which brings us back full-circle to my original post: On February 15 2011 01:28 BlasiuS wrote: But if you go hydra/spore and you see he keeps making phoenix, then you need to add infestors. hydras outrange graviton beam, so one good FG and all of his phoenix are dead. | ||
|
Silmakuoppaanikinko
799 Posts
On February 15 2011 06:46 BlasiuS wrote: Great, and that was not the point. The point was that hydras and phoenices are more or less the same in a straight up fight.when you're running hydras back and forth between 3 bases to defend against phoenix, creep makes all the difference. Without creep you'd have to have enough hydras to defend all 3 bases at once, that's way too many hydras. That's part of the reason why hydras can defend phoenix cost-efficiently. no you don't, hydras cost half the gas of a phoenix. a few hydras + queen + a spore at each base costs less gas than 5-6 phoenix. Even on creep, the speed of hydralisks is pathetic compared to that of the phoenix, which also of course travels by air. Also, if you pit 6 hydras, a queen and a spore against 6 phoenices the phoenices will simply position themselves in a place the spore can't reach it and win the fight, simple as that. "later on" zerg will have your 3rd up and spire completed, at which point zerg will have corruptors to fight the phoenixes. Remember you're only making the minimum number of hydras to defend your 3 bases while you drone up your 3rd. After that it's corruptors. Corruptors are obviously a better choice as they're faster than hydras and travel by air.. | ||
|
Elean
689 Posts
On February 15 2011 01:28 MrBitter wrote: I think the most appropriate response from the Zerg player would be to steadily pump queens and roaches while going straight to spire, defending, and just expanding everywhere. Playing vs Phoenix builds is just like playing vs pure voidray colo... You have to really overkill it with the corruptors, and then rely on your next wave of units to do the rest. That definitely makes sense, except maybe the expanding everywhere. The phoenix harass is so strong that even 3 bases are difficult to defend. When phoenixes reach a critical mass, they can kill queens really fast and 2 or 3 spore colonies do only shield damage before switching target... At the end of the game against PiqLiq, Catz said that queens wouldn't work. And Catz should know what he is talking about: he has tried queens, and have seen the forge FE + phoenix build many times. (First time I saw it on his stream was against ppgbubles the day after the patch). | ||
|
Elean
689 Posts
On February 15 2011 06:50 freetgy wrote: Phoenix as mutas are great to contain a scared player. but as the counter to mutas is 5 Gate pressure the same can be said to Z. Though this forces of course a more aggressiv gameplay Zerg need to realize how much phoenixes actually cut into their ground army/sentry count. Well... you see... Catz is one of the most aggressive Zerg. In the game the OP is talking about, he did attack as soon as he got enough hydra to move out, and he wasn't able to break into the huge amount of cannons (not to mention what happened when the colossus arrived...). Roaches are picked up by phoenixes. And lings are awfull against a full wall with a ton of canons. So yes applying pressure is a great idea, but how exactly do you do it ??? What is the timing window ? The 6 gates counter muta, by attacking before the muta gets into play. You can not counter the phoenix by attacking before the phoenix gets into play, because before getting phoenix the protoss is spamming cannons which is the best early defense of the game. | ||
|
freetgy
1720 Posts
don't underestimate the strengh of phoenix against hydras using hydras to push is BAD: hydra = light no armor (take 20 dmg per attack) = 80 hp = 4 shots (actually 5 since hydra heals +1hp in the time the attacks accur 8D) roach = armored with +1 armo = 145 (take 8 dmg per attack) = 18 Shots roaches cheaper than hydras just mass roaches and go in  hydras are a bad response against unscouted Phoenixes: 4-5 phoenixes deal with almost no loses against 4-5 hydras. i can tell you this works, keep baiting forcefields with lings! and then push with an army. 1 basing protoss can't sustain phoenix/air production when he needs sentrys to survive. you don't need your ground army in your base when he has air be aggressiv realize that expense on the stargate/phoenix of 750/550 should have been: 5 Zealots/5 Sentys instead = 20 supply 4 phoenix = 8 supply thats alot army lack on ground, which never will be maid up by phoenix in straight fight. | ||
| ||
