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On February 15 2011 07:20 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2011 06:50 freetgy wrote:
Phoenix as mutas are great to contain a scared player.
but as the counter to mutas is 5 Gate pressure the same can be said to Z.
Though this forces of course a more aggressiv gameplay Zerg need to realize how much phoenixes actually cut into their ground army/sentry count.
Well... you see... Catz is one of the most aggressive Zerg. In the game the OP is talking about, he did attack as soon as he got enough hydra to move out, and he wasn't able to break into the huge amount of cannons (not to mention what happened when the colossus arrived...). Roaches are picked up by phoenixes. And lings are awfull against a full wall with a ton of canons. So yes applying pressure is a great idea, but how exactly do you do it ??? What is the timing window ? The 6 gates counter muta, by attacking before the muta gets into play. You can not counter the phoenix by attacking before the phoenix gets into play, because before getting phoenix the protoss is spamming cannons which is the best early defense of the game.
Yes and the 6 gate vs. muta works because muta takes a while to tech to and build up a critical mass, phoenix harass on the other hand can be very fast and usually shows up towards the end of when zerg wants to build up econ, so zerg can't really do a timing push before the harass starts without going all in. I still don't believe roaches would be viable (outside of an earlier all in) but I would like to try it or see someone try it, the armor is almost irrelevant because toss only needs to lift the roaches while the canons deal damage and delay for the fist colossus.
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When should you become aggressive against that kind of play?
I dont like seing a toss on 3 bases...
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On February 15 2011 07:27 freetgy wrote:roach = armored with +1 armo = 145 (take 8 dmg per attack) = 18 Shots roaches cheaper than hydras just mass roaches and go in  ... i can tell you this works, keep baiting forcefields with lings! and then push with an army. 1 basing protoss can't sustain phoenix/air production when he needs sentrys to survive. ... realize that expense on the stargate/phoenix of 750/550 should have been: 5 Zealots/5 Sentys instead = 20 supply 4 phoenix = 8 supply We are talking about a Forge FE into phoenix build, not a 1 base phoenix which is not nearly as strong.
Baiting forcefield is a good idea, except when you don't see any sentry just a wall full of cannons.
Roaches are good, I guess. The only problem I see is that they die rather quickly to cannons... especially when they are in the air.
Stargate/phoneix sure are an investment. But it forces you to build spore colonies, and queens that also are an investment.
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i don't how a zerg hasn't enough time to react, before Forge FE gets decent number of phoenixes.
Overlords should have free scouting info for a pretty long time if he really canons up. like that.
each canon again is static defense which reduces fight supply alot.
each canon could have been a gateway, producing units.
get queens, spores and macro hard
as protoss, 1 base phoenixes are imho way more "viable" as you can atleast can catch your opponents pants down (not enough queens, no tech, just hard droning, deperately trying to get AA)
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On February 15 2011 07:43 freetgy wrote:
i don't how a zerg hasn't enough time to react, before Forge FE gets decent number of phoenixes.
You are still thinking about 1 base phoenix play.
The forge FE into phoenix isn't a rush relying on making damage before the zerg has time to react.
It makes damage even after the zerg has 10+ hydra, spore colonies, queens...
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when does this hit in your experiance?
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Both players are delayed by a cannon rush, so there is probably no precise timing.
From what I've seen, the first phoenixes comes slightly before the zerg is ready to take his third.
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I have been playing with mass Phoenix/Cannons/DT's. I use the cannons early to get my star gates up then start mass harassing muta style and mass expanding. The Phoenix are too fast for corruptors as long as you dart in and out quick. Phoenix straight own mutas in equal numbers and I just avoided the hydras. I ended up crippling the zergs economy so badly that he couldn't do anything. I focus on killing queens and gas drones then move on, never staying anywhere long enough for his army to catch me. My other targets are overlords and overseers. I made enough cannons that he couldn't ever overcome them. The trick is to have the cannons radiate outwards from the nexus so your tech is protected. The last part of the plan is to make DT's to clean up the abandoned hatcheries and kill off tech...
The last game I played I had the zerg down to his original base, no income, no gas and no tech. All he had unit wise was a butt load of corruptors that he could do nothing with. I was on 3 bases (lost one), 2 of them still mining and more money in the bank than I could spend.
I am not the best player and I have a lot of work to do to perfect my phoenix micro but it felt good to give the zerg a little of the frustration that I have felt a thousand time when they go mass mutas...
Here is a link to the game: How I destroy zerg
Warning though, both me and my opponent are bronze. I know the play is very poor. I still don't have the build well fleshed out and practiced. I am sure the strategy would need massive refinement to work at higher level (if it would work) but its a start...
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EPT
