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This isn't a spoiler thread so don't get your panties in a wad. This is a post to discuss Genius' recent build in the GSL.
Link (M 5 set 1) : http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors1/vod/59094
I'm calling it his build even though Tastosis accredited it to mouZMana, but Genius is the player doing the build in the above VOD. Don't turn this into a flame war or imba shouting match; I just want to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of this build 1) in general 2) on Shakuras Plateau and 3) on any map.
here is the build:
+ Show Spoiler +
9 Pylon
12 Gate
14 Gas
16 Pylon
17 Core
18 Gas
20 Warpgate (at about 3:40 as a reference time)
21 Stalker
23 Pylon
24 Sentry
27 Robotics Facility
28 Gate
31 Sentry
32 Pylon
33 Observer (reference time is about 5:40 for starting the obs)
33 Pylon
(Warpgate finishes at about 5:57)
36 Nexus
Two more sentries
42, or thereabout, another Gate
43ish, he scouts his opponent with the observer and reacts.
Now I'm pretty sure about all the times and population references. The one thing I have no idea about is Chronoboosts. I know he at least chronos the first two probes but other than that, I don't know. I included some reference timings so that maybe some of you that had a better grasp on timings might know how he distributed his chrono a bit better than myself.
1) I think that this build does well in general because of the fact that it gets sentries out early and can hold the ramps while he gets other units and gets his obs out to scout what the T is up to. Obviously it would do well against banshees with the quick robo. I don't know about how it would do against the two thor timing attack though, but I'm just not sure when that hits. IN general it seems pretty good, but I'm asking what you all think.
2)On Shakuras Plateau, which is a huge map, it seemed to do well (not a spoiler). Obviously on a big map, you have extra time that it takes for armies to traverse between mains that helps out "slower" builds.
3)On other maps, I think it still has potential. Because you have two sentries out after your initial stalker, you could hold the ramp on any map that had a ramp, I would think, for at least long enough to get at lease some other units out of your warp gates. Even if your sentries had just popped when the attack came (which could not happen bc there is some time between the first and second sentry) you would at least have 30 seconds to hold the ramp with perfect forcefields (each one lasts 15 seconds). However, you will have at least some extra energy on your first sentry, if the attack comes at least after your first sentry comes out of your gate.
Overall, this game has made me want to really start trying to go with this build as my main BO in PvT (before I was just rallying my first Stalker to the T's main, skipping the zealot, and trying to harass as long as I could until a marauder can out or if they were going marines into banshee or something I could usually just keep rallying stalkers to his main off two gates and usually win outright.)
But most importantly, what do you think TL?
Edit: Here is a link to the first game in the Dreamhack finals between MaNa (P) and Naama (T), you can get to the other games in the series from there.
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4444676/
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Isn't it a standard 2 gate robo?
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Look like the usual 3 gate robo to me, but more sentries than I normally build for PvT.
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you can't build a stalker on 22 supply then a pylon on 23 - the supply would jump from 22 to 24 when the stalker begins building. Unless you have the stalker building on supply 21 or 20.
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with just an emphasis on early sentries?
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On January 08 2011 08:17 Robellicose wrote:
you can't build a stalker on 22 supply then a pylon on 23 - the supply would jump from 22 to 24 when the stalker begins building. Unless you have the stalker building on supply 21 or 20.
thanks for pointing that out, I'll fix it, it's supposed to be at 21 ^^
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You should write about the real deal of this build. Its the Nexus. You throw down a nexus no matter what after the robo. Then your Observer enters the terranbase and if you see an expo... you are ahead, because yours is up earlier. If you see tech then react to it and stick with the expo. If you see an allin then cancel the Nexus and hold the push with sentries.
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Like the others said looks like a standard 3 gate/robo with more sentries.
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The difference is the in the nexus timing.
You must remember to cancel the nexus if you see a rush coming and drop down gateways and chrono out some immortals.
It is so safe since it is reactionary, focusing on what you see with your observers. You react to what the terran has, using all of the require tech structures. Because of warp gates this can be done relatively easily with good scouting.
Really fun build. mouZMana is the other play who does this I believe is what Tastosis said.
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I only thing this would work on On Shakuras Plateau unless u get some good scouting info since u only have 4 sentries and a stalker just after u throw down ur nexus. He could have gotten a much faster expo (edit: with a 1 gate expand) but instead he got sentries faster for more energy and a really fast observer for scouting. I think this is a good idea.
What did he scout and what was his responce?
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In my opinion, 1 Gate FE is more suitable for larger maps like Shakuras Plateau. It also works in close positions if he is teching or expanding as well (for some reason o.o).
Can you have a section that compares this to 1 Gate FE? The pressure allows you to expand earlier, too, unlike in this build you have to place double gates + robo before Nexus.
How well does this build works in close position? I know it might no be successful, due to the small rush distance, but I at least want to know how well it will work since you have a lot of defensive units.
EDIT:
On January 08 2011 09:27 Jayrod wrote:
The main part of this build that stands out from other openers is the complete lack of zealots. It frees up some extra money to throw down an earlier second gas and focus more on sentries. This is weaker to marauder pokes and not good if you want to be aggressive... however, you get earlier sentries so they can build up energy. Its stylistic to a degree, but koreans are also more apt to pull their scvs in an all in, which is where the extra sentries will shine... if the Terran does a clever timed attack on your expansion you can go up the ramp and hold it off alot longer than if you made 1 late sentry and had to keep warping in more to hold the ramp and tech to collossuss. I would say that this opener is more viable against an aggressive korean style terran than, for instance, a NA terran who might do an early poke, but won't do that constant aggression until the expansion is broken that you see from the koreans with superior multi-tasking.
Watch any HuK PvT on the korean servers. They attack him early and often and dont let up, if that expansion could fall you'll be glad you made some early sentries so you can tech to collossus without spending 100 gas over and over while you're trying to build collossuss just to hold the ramp.
Hmm, sentries are the reason, eh? Don't they do bad against MM, though, as you need zealot/sentry to destroy MM balls, with a sprinkle of stalkers due to their low DPS, despite guardian shield and forcefield.
So 1 Gate FE is personally for less aggressive people. Never thought of that. ^_^
EDIT2: Oh, I see now, woops. Basically, forcefield, move back, attack with your whole army while half of their army cannot due to the fact that you have no melee units for him to shoot at. That's pretty cool.
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The main part of this build that stands out from other openers is the complete lack of zealots. It frees up some extra money to throw down an earlier second gas and focus more on sentries. This is weaker to marauder pokes and not good if you want to be aggressive... however, you get earlier sentries so they can build up energy. Its stylistic to a degree, but koreans are also more apt to pull their scvs in an all in, which is where the extra sentries will shine... if the Terran does a clever timed attack on your expansion you can go up the ramp and hold it off alot longer than if you made 1 late sentry and had to keep warping in more to hold the ramp and tech to collossuss. I would say that this opener is more viable against an aggressive korean style terran than, for instance, a NA terran who might do an early poke, but won't do that constant aggression until the expansion is broken that you see from the koreans with superior multi-tasking.
Watch any HuK PvT on the korean servers. They attack him early and often and dont let up, if that expansion could fall you'll be glad you made some early sentries so you can tech to collossus without spending 100 gas over and over while you're trying to build collossuss just to hold the ramp.
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Thanks for transcribing, nice safe build that allows you to expand before 40 supply and still gives you decent protection from early timing pushes/pressure ^^
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On January 08 2011 09:22 iChau wrote:
In my opinion, 1 Gate FE is more suitable for larger maps like Shakuras Plateau. It also works in close positions if he is teching or expanding as well (for some reason o.o).
Can you have a section that compares this to 1 Gate FE? The pressure allows you to expand earlier, too, unlike in this build you have to place double gates + robo before Nexus.
How well does this build works in close position? I know it might no be successful, due to the small rush distance, but I at least want to know how well it will work since you have a lot of defensive units.
Based on my experiance playing protoss (which isnt that much :/) i dont think he has much to defend his nexus on smaller maps since the forcefield will be less effective without the ramp. I would think that a 1 gate fast expand would be better on a smaller map becasue it is faster and can be hold off all ins a lot of the time(correct me if im wrong).
I havnt tryed this build order though. The terran window of attack may be very short and the protoss could cancel his nexus if he doesnt like what he sees with the observer so i think i would have to test it out and see.
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i didnt read everyting that was said here, but for ppl who like this kind of build, be sure to check out PvT replays from mouzMana. Hes a very good PvT player that utilizes very solid and safe builds, getting him to the finals of dreamhack, even beating players like fenix along the way.
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This is exactly the build that almost every single Protoss user has been using if they don't want to die but expand reasonably early. The benefits of a 2gate 1robo expansion are:
-Gets you a fast observer and immortals. Both these are keys to surviving marine/marauder aggression early on.
-Sets you up to go for a reasonably early collosus if that's you're thing
-Since immortals are useful in gateway unit compositions, it's not a HORRIBLE idea to just pump immortals/observers out of that robo and go for templar and expand
-This also allows you to do drops, a HUGE element of this play that I think is being massively overlooked by Protoss players. Immortals kill supply depots/reactors/techlabs hilariously fast. Also if going for Templar play, these warp prisms can be used to do storm drop for maximum econonmy damage.
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On January 08 2011 09:10 Chronald wrote:
Really fun build. mouZMana is the other play who does this I believe is what Tastosis said.
thanks! I'll add it to the OP
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Based on my experiance playing protoss (which isnt that much :/) i dont think he has much to defend his nexus on smaller maps since the forcefield will be less effective without the ramp. I would think that a 1 gate fast expand would be better on a smaller map becasue it is faster and can be hold off all ins a lot of the time(correct me if im wrong).
I havnt tryed this build order though. The terran window of attack may be very short and the protoss could cancel his nexus if he doesnt like what he sees with the observer so i think i would have to test it out and see.
Yeah I agree, that's what other's have said as well about it: It's all about getting the nexus up and then scouting to see if it was a good decision or not.
Does anyone else have any replays of this style/BO losing to something? I know it has it's weaknesses and a good VOD or replay exposing a timing window would really be helpful (I don't mean a loss to poor FFs).
Thanks for all the positive feedback
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On January 08 2011 09:22 iChau wrote:
Hmm, sentries are the reason, eh? Don't they do bad against MM, though, as you need zealot/sentry to destroy MM balls, with a sprinkle of stalkers due to their low DPS, despite guardian shield and forcefield.
So 1 Gate FE is personally for less aggressive people. Never thought of that. ^_^
EDIT2: Oh, I see now, woops. Basically, forcefield, move back, attack with your whole army while half of their army cannot due to the fact that you have no melee units for him to shoot at. That's pretty cool.
Welcome to using sentries on a ramp. And yes, this is a build that allows you to poke at the Terran, rather than just sit tight like the 1GFE
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Russian Federation266 Posts
Watch dreemhack finals, Mana used it a few times there.
There is no timings that this build will loose to early game if you react correctly to what you scout with your obs, but you are at a disadvantage against 1rax FE compaired to 1 gate FE.
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Thanks, I added a link to the dreamhack finals in the OP
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On January 08 2011 15:10 Kogut wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 09:22 iChau wrote:
Hmm, sentries are the reason, eh? Don't they do bad against MM, though, as you need zealot/sentry to destroy MM balls, with a sprinkle of stalkers due to their low DPS, despite guardian shield and forcefield.
So 1 Gate FE is personally for less aggressive people. Never thought of that. ^_^
EDIT2: Oh, I see now, woops. Basically, forcefield, move back, attack with your whole army while half of their army cannot due to the fact that you have no melee units for him to shoot at. That's pretty cool. Welcome to using sentries on a ramp. And yes, this is a build that allows you to poke at the Terran, rather than just sit tight like the 1GFE
Sarcasm detector. I rarely use sentries for the ramp unless I'm against protoss or 7rr because I'm the usual aggressor, not a child afraid of the dark. Why be aggressive and macro like a noob when you can push slightly AND macro very decently.
You can be aggressive with 1 GFE. I can take down anyone under low-diamond because they can't handle a probe + zealot + stalker. Yes, I have tried. And yes, I have replays.
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On January 08 2011 09:22 iChau wrote:In my opinion, 1 Gate FE is more suitable for larger maps like Shakuras Plateau. It also works in close positions if he is teching or expanding as well (for some reason o.o). Can you have a section that compares this to 1 Gate FE? The pressure allows you to expand earlier, too, unlike in this build you have to place double gates + robo before Nexus. How well does this build works in close position? I know it might no be successful, due to the small rush distance, but I at least want to know how well it will work since you have a lot of defensive units. EDIT: Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 09:27 Jayrod wrote:
The main part of this build that stands out from other openers is the complete lack of zealots. It frees up some extra money to throw down an earlier second gas and focus more on sentries. This is weaker to marauder pokes and not good if you want to be aggressive... however, you get earlier sentries so they can build up energy. Its stylistic to a degree, but koreans are also more apt to pull their scvs in an all in, which is where the extra sentries will shine... if the Terran does a clever timed attack on your expansion you can go up the ramp and hold it off alot longer than if you made 1 late sentry and had to keep warping in more to hold the ramp and tech to collossuss. I would say that this opener is more viable against an aggressive korean style terran than, for instance, a NA terran who might do an early poke, but won't do that constant aggression until the expansion is broken that you see from the koreans with superior multi-tasking.
Watch any HuK PvT on the korean servers. They attack him early and often and dont let up, if that expansion could fall you'll be glad you made some early sentries so you can tech to collossus without spending 100 gas over and over while you're trying to build collossuss just to hold the ramp. Hmm, sentries are the reason, eh? Don't they do bad against MM, though, as you need zealot/sentry to destroy MM balls, with a sprinkle of stalkers due to their low DPS, despite guardian shield and forcefield. So 1 Gate FE is personally for less aggressive people. Never thought of that. ^_^ EDIT2: Oh, I see now, woops. Basically, forcefield, move back, attack with your whole army while half of their army cannot due to the fact that you have no melee units for him to shoot at. That's pretty cool.
My point was that you skip the zeal for early second gas to get earlier sentries so they get energy faster. You don't mass them up like u would vs zerg but if terran breaks your Fe you're going to need them
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My worries are what is the best way to react to an early ghost build? When I scout it I've already got 4 sentries and a Nexus, if I just chill out at my nat I'm just going to get all of them EMP'd and I'm going to die.
Should I just cancel the Nex and go back up my ramp?
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Mouz manas 2 gate robo is very different to the norm, he gets 3 zealots and 1 stalkers before the warp tech finishs and doesnt get second gas till 30ish food
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United States8476 Posts
On January 13 2011 03:10 shaunnn wrote:
Mouz manas 2 gate robo is very different to the norm, he gets 3 zealots and 1 stalkers before the warp tech finishs and doesnt get second gas till 30ish food
Mana's version is better vs different tank pushes but worse vs bio builds. Also, he just started using this build; he used to get earlier gas aka the standard 2 gate robo.
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What is the difference between this 2 Gate Robo and the one Huk normally does? I see Huk often build a 18 gas 24 robo?? Has anyone tried both before?? Do you have to cut probes to get the 24 robo?
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you can poke with a 1 gate fe also...just no sentries. it's almost the same build because usually after your structures and obs you can make a couple of sentries around the same time as this builds nexus is going down. this builds probably better against super early stuff since you already have more production buildings down. not sure about this builds timings but usually between 5-6 minutes you are building your gateways for a 1gate fe on 30-32 food. this builds probably just a little bit safer and a little bit later of an expo. both good builds though probably more of a preference to which you use. thanks for the thread.
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notice that you can get bunker rushed before that build order unfolds and suddenly becomes less safe, the safest thing to do is to have good scouting and know what to open to do well against what he is opening.
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This build is focused on getting a lot of sentries early + a fast observer; the mineral surplus is used to grab a nexus. Obs is sent by the ground army path and if it sees the attack, you can cancel the nexus and get an immortal. Depending on distance it can be vulnerable to 2rax rine/maruder poke -> CC (as in, you need an immortal before nexus); or it can be safe on larger maps. If terran attacks at perfect time, on most maps the standard 2rax can force the nexus cancel. If terran is off even by 15 seconds, you're fine..or you could get an immortal and extra gateway unit round, and then nexus.
It isn't good for aggression at all.
If you make more than 2 sentries and opponent is thor rushing, it used to be that you were screwed. IDK about the new patch; zealots could've become effective enough to hold the attack, but I have my doubts about it.
There is a small issue with banshees going around the map, so when your obs reaches terran base they're attacking your mineral lines; depends on robo timing/map. Some variations of this build skip stalker and just make sentries, that allows for faster nexus.
If terran has expanded off of 1rax or 2rax, and you opt for colossi, there is a window of vulnerability right before the first colossi comes out. If terran was aggressive enough before that, making you waste FFs, the stim attack can possibly kill or damage you. Even if you start the bay with next 200 gas after obs.
As far as chrono boosts go, I am not sure I remember correctly; but you chrono probes only 2 or 3 times, then chrono warpgate 1 or 2 times; and chrono obs. If you chrono probes earlier I think you end up requiring a pylon earlier and that delays a critical building. Opt for having warpgate finish with 2nd gateway and still have a chrono boost for the observer.
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Going to give it a try. Can we compare this 2gate robo expand and 1gate FE to the Finesse vs. Brute Force approach? Sentry/Stalker to defend the 2rax bio pressure with good forcefields versus just haveing enough zealots and stalkers to manhandle it (pulled probes too).
Really keen on the idea of adjusting an expo to fit an allin. The Marine/RepairThor/Banshee (with variable number of scvs and either a Raven or Siege Tank w/ Siege Mode) push, when detected by this fast obs, could lead to a nexus cancel compared to 1gate FE where my obs shows this allin too late to stop the Nexus.
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I have not had success with this build against most terrans. They tend to be aggressive with early marines and marauders. Sentries can forcefield the ramp but the expo is not safe at all.
In my experience it seems like it is only safe to grab an early or earlyish expo if the terran does so himself.
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Have tried out this build and realised just how defensive this is. I found that I could not put any pressure on T at all until after I put down the Nexus - is that basically the idea of this build? To just sit and defend, then after you scout then build the appropriate army?? It seems like this build basically allows T to tech to whatever they want and have map control for the early game??
I also found that against banshee rushes, this was hard, not because i couldnt detect, but because i didnt have many stalkers since i focused more on sentries....and this was hard esp trying to cover 2 bases.
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On January 14 2011 09:16 AirbladeOrange wrote:
I have not had success with this build against most terrans. They tend to be aggressive with early marines and marauders. Sentries can forcefield the ramp but the expo is not safe at all.
In my experience it seems like it is only safe to grab an early or earlyish expo if the terran does so himself.
That's the idea...you drop the nexus and if your observer scouts the terran doing something you can't hold off you cancel it.
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im bumping this because its an awesome build and more people need to see it
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On January 13 2011 03:12 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 03:10 shaunnn wrote:
Mouz manas 2 gate robo is very different to the norm, he gets 3 zealots and 1 stalkers before the warp tech finishs and doesnt get second gas till 30ish food Mana's version is better vs different tank pushes but worse vs bio builds. Also, he just started using this build; he used to get earlier gas aka the standard 2 gate robo.
Still he likes to get 3 zealots and 1 stalker (order: zealot/stalker/zealot/zealot) and warp 2 sentries after warp-tech has finished. I asked him about this recently and he said that he wants the gas saved up for early robotics + early sentry.
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On January 10 2011 05:44 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 15:10 Kogut wrote:On January 08 2011 09:22 iChau wrote:
Hmm, sentries are the reason, eh? Don't they do bad against MM, though, as you need zealot/sentry to destroy MM balls, with a sprinkle of stalkers due to their low DPS, despite guardian shield and forcefield.
So 1 Gate FE is personally for less aggressive people. Never thought of that. ^_^
EDIT2: Oh, I see now, woops. Basically, forcefield, move back, attack with your whole army while half of their army cannot due to the fact that you have no melee units for him to shoot at. That's pretty cool. Welcome to using sentries on a ramp. And yes, this is a build that allows you to poke at the Terran, rather than just sit tight like the 1GFE You can be aggressive with 1 GFE. I can take down anyone under low-diamond because they can't handle a probe + zealot + stalker. Yes, I have tried. And yes, I have replays.
Actually, it would be nice if you uploaded such replays...
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On January 10 2011 05:44 iChau wrote:
Sarcasm detector. I rarely use sentries for the ramp unless I'm against protoss or 7rr because I'm the usual aggressor, not a child afraid of the dark. Why be aggressive and macro like a noob when you can push slightly AND macro very decently.
You can be aggressive with 1 GFE. I can take down anyone under low-diamond because they can't handle a probe + zealot + stalker. Yes, I have tried. And yes, I have replays.
You can't be aggresive with 1Gate FE, you can only poke. That poke shows if he's bio or teching, if he's teching you can harass a bit.
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On January 28 2011 01:25 Raggydiaper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 05:44 iChau wrote:
Sarcasm detector. I rarely use sentries for the ramp unless I'm against protoss or 7rr because I'm the usual aggressor, not a child afraid of the dark. Why be aggressive and macro like a noob when you can push slightly AND macro very decently.
You can be aggressive with 1 GFE. I can take down anyone under low-diamond because they can't handle a probe + zealot + stalker. Yes, I have tried. And yes, I have replays. You can't be aggresive with 1Gate FE, you can only poke. That poke shows if he's bio or teching, if he's teching you can harass a bit.
Depends who you're playing and what they're doing. I used to do big damage or end games straight up with 1 gateway, but it's common now and people at my level prepare for it. He was saying he can beat people under low-diamond with a 1 gate attack. If they're teching without a bunker, I have no doubt that he can.
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On January 13 2011 14:09 OriginalBeast wrote:
notice that you can get bunker rushed before that build order unfolds and suddenly becomes less safe, the safest thing to do is to have good scouting and know what to open to do well against what he is opening.
Yes, you need to react to cheese or lose. That's kind of how cheese works.
Even then you could probably sit on one base for a little bit and break the contain with immortals as you get a robo super fast with this build.
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EPT
