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Hello, I just saw someone do this strange build on Jungle Basin and was wondering how you can actually beat it. They go mass banshee viking with planetary fortress and missile turrets everywhere so you cannot actually kill any expansions they get (fortress is impossible to kill with ground units except ultra, and if you kill the turrets the vikings will kill your mutas)
In terms of army vs army, muta hydra won't work (that is what I did) since banshees can cloak and kill all the hydras, and vikings have much longer range than mutas and can kill mutas and overseers.
I think what I should have done was get Infestors to fungal growth the vikings and just have litterally gone insane mass muta. Do you think this is what I should have done?
Or should I have gone tier 3 for ultras and just run in and destroy all the planetary fortresses while being attacked by banshees (this sounds kind of all-in)
Or is there something else I could have done? Remember this is Jungle Basin, I was at the only 3 bases Zerg can really get safely all 100% fully saturated, my opponent was also on 3 base, and like I said, without infestors its 100% impossible to destroy planetary fortresses with missile turrets if they have vikings and banshees. I did try to get more bases, but as I said earlier, banshee viking > hydra muta, so I was incapable of securing any additional bases.
I'm 2200 Diamond with +0 division modifier (s-rank division)
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infestors work very well against this. fungal growth gives you the detection you need against cloaked banshees and prevents them from flying away. to that you can add hydras and ultras or broodlords for the PFs (depends on how many vikings he has).
but jungle basin is usually a default win for terran, so you shouldnt expect too much on that map ;p
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On January 07 2011 04:13 DarKFoRcE wrote:
but jungle basin is usually a default win for terran, so you shouldnt expect too much on that map ;p
Yes I know Jungle Basin and Delta Quadrant are automatic win for Terran but I don't thumbs down any maps because I'm too optimistic. However, after recent games, I will now thumbs down both of these maps for the first time. To be honest, its just rediculous that Blizzard would add in such terrible terrible maps into the ladder pool, and GSL is terrible for using Blizzard maps. Maybe other tournaments will do the right thing and use custom maps.
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If he really only has banshees and viking, I think a good amount of corruptors would deal with that quite good, change some into brood lords and you can take out turrets very easily. Also, with a good amount of brood lords, the broodling will surround the planetary fortress very fast, making it much harder for the scv's to repair it.
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Thanks for the info on fungal growth and corruptors. I'll try those the next time I see this build.
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Unrelated to the specific question but I often find winning on jungle basin by getting an aggressive third in the middle and attempting to keep Terran on 2 base until he's mined out. My only answer to the specific question is maybe to win before he gets mass numbers.
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So JB and DQ are auto wins for terran, Steppes and LT as well I guess. Maybe Scrap Station is the only balanced map? Or just quit whining and deal with your actual question?
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On January 07 2011 04:26 Willzzz wrote:
So JB and DQ are auto wins for terran, Steppes and LT as well I guess. Maybe Scrap Station is the only balanced map? Or just quit whining and deal with your actual question?
All of those maps are Terran favored against Zerg, everybody knows that. The only balanced maps are Xel`Naga, and Metal, while Shakuras, and scrap station are slightly zerg favored, or possibly just balanced.
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Wouldn't mass muta (not hydra) handle this relatively well? Vikings outrange mutas, but in a straight up mass fight they destroy them. Microing properly by running then turning around and attacking quickly should do quite well as long as you have upgrades. I've lost many phoenix to that kind of micro.
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Hydra, Infestor, with over seers. Some corruptors if needed.
Thats honestly the best way I have been beat doing this on scrap 
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If a Terran is going strictly banshee/viking. There will be a sizable window to do a baneling bust and then flood in a ton of Zerglings.
Now if the Terran opened more standard and then switched into banshee/viking I can understand your problem.
Banshee builds are very open to early attack.
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Hydra Infestors and Mutas are the best combination I think because mutas and overlords with speed are fast enough to kill the banshees. Try to keep the oveseers following hydras in the back of your army so the vikings have to get in range of the hydras. I would recommend avoiding hydra muta because it is just too expensive.
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On January 07 2011 05:31 Terminator(471) wrote:
Hydra Infestors and Mutas are the best combination I think because mutas and overlords with speed are fast enough to kill the banshees. Try to keep the oveseers following hydras in the back of your army so the vikings have to get in range of the hydras. I would recommend avoiding hydra muta because it is just too expensive.
This post made me laugh out loud.
As for the OP you've had two very good suggestions, One being infestor/corruptor because his force is all air, the switch brood lords after you take it out will win you the game. Also the early +1 speedling attack with a couple banelings to take out the wall would absolutely decimate his economy forcing him to switch his tech and most likely lose.
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On January 07 2011 05:31 Terminator(471) wrote:
Hydra Infestors and Mutas are the best combination I think because mutas and overlords with speed are fast enough to kill the banshees. Try to keep the oveseers following hydras in the back of your army so the vikings have to get in range of the hydras. I would recommend avoiding hydra muta because it is just too expensive.
Hydra/Muta is too expensive for you, so you recommend Hydra/Muta/Infestor?
Logic.
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Just Mutas. Vikings are horrific against them cost for cost, and once you have a sufficient ball so are missile turrets. The only reason vikings can ever be a palatable defense against mutas is because marines are protecting them.
A replay would be helpful, as it's hard to tell how mass you're referring to, what he opened with, etc. You make it sound he's expanding all over the map with turrets and PF's. That doesn't just "happen". Ideally you get early mutas, establish some map control, force him to build turrets, and make him unable to take a 3rd.
Looking beyond mechanical reasons, the likely reason you lost is the fact that muta/hydra is a bad combination, since they're both extremely gas heavy units. pound for pound mutas are great against vikings, but if you're commiting half your gas to hydras you may not have enough to overwhelm them.
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This is one of those cases where you can't make a half hearted effort to beat one or the other. Viking/Banshee is one of those perfect storms that's very difficult to contend with.
Go pure anti air. Corruptors, mutas, hydras. Corruptors are handy because they can transition to brood lords. Mutas can help with keeping map control and guarding against drops. Hydras can raid/defend via Nydus, and work great with Infestor fungal support.
If he has ground support, you don't have much choice but to ignore it until the second wave. Sacrificial expos are not a bad investment to buy time against what is basically going to be his ONLY push (Zerg anti air is also insanely gas expensive). After the air is taken care of, transition to deal with the next threat.
Banshee builds are very open to early attack. Terran doesn't really have to leave themselves open to anything. If there isn't an impenetrable wall that not even Banelings can deal with, he simply isn't trying. Fortunately, Terran walling techniques are still in their infancy, leaving most players wide open to early aggression.
If he walls correctly, such builds are typically slow enough that you have ample opportunity to slime the map and macro up. You'll need EVERY dime possible to break a solid Terran defense.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
Just mass muta with attack upgrades and add infestors later. I don't see how corruptors would help, muta is much more cost efficient vs vikings and also faster.
My friend and I have actually tried to make a build like this (i.e. viking+banshee) work, and it is super fragile, one positioning mistake from the terran and it is practically game over. Try to provoke the vikings to attack by showing undefended overlords or just mass expanding and then flank with muta so that they cannot escape without losses.
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Just screw over his air. If he's going banshee/viking, all you need to do is pick ground, or air. Right? Although air is better because if you go for ground you are less mobile and the vikings can land. So, mass Mutalisks, may be some corruptors if you don't have too much gas. I'm not sure if this is efficient against Vikings though. I'd just mass mutas, it's easier to micro if they're all the same unit  .
Another option, although situational, is to just mass Ultralisks and go for the kill. Banshees won't kill fast enough and Vikings will get raped if they try to land.
About Infestors. They are such a bad idea. One mistake and all your infestors go bye-bye. Also they'll only be useful if your opponent messes up and clumps his units. If they don't clump, fungal growth isn't going to be worth the gas. Just mass muta. They're superior in mobility, able to actually attack, and are reliable, unlike the Infestors.
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hydra/infestor will beat any terran air very cost effectively.
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Micro dmged nuts back and you can kill turrets with no losses. Also banelings vs fortresses are good too oy even just a mass of roaches can kill it with nuts to help.
Keep harassing until you have a sizeable flock of muta; 20->30. Then focus on opening holes in his base defences and pick off addons, depots, array units. Basically if he leaves his base you should be really hurting him for it while your ground force will just hold his push usually ling, bling or roach in there if mech.
He's using so many resources for defence that you should be able to stay an expo above him with a gas expo too if you can. Play to starve him out with massing counter armies repeatedly. Just make sure if you tech switch you are doing so at a good timing as you could end up maxing a worthless army if you don't scout.
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EPT
