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As we know, in small numbers, zerg units tend to be pretty effective against marines, for example, a low amount of speedlings is very effective against a few marines.
However, as the marine numbers grow higher, lings and roaches start to not be as effective against marines, especially marines with combat shield and stim.
But I think that its a little unfair to compare speedlings to marines with stim and combat shield. Why? well the terran did invest in 2 upgrades, and the zerg only got speed.
Common knowledge is that lings dont have a combat shield upgrade to make them more durable though. What if there was one? To give zerglings 12 more life each, 24 more life per pair? For like 150-150, doesnt that sound interesting?
Well guess what? there is.
Ground carapace does just that against marines, add on another 12 life. Instead of needing 6 shots to kill a zergling, you now need 8 shots.
Normally, terran goes for stim, combat shield, and then only adds the engineering bay upgrades later on. So it should be possible to stay ahead of him by 1 armor, as long as you start upgrading fast enough, and keep upgrading during the whole game.
This would keep lings efficient against marines until much bigger clumps arrive. 35 marines vs 70 lings is then still fairly even, compared to the 15 marines vs 30 lings without getting the +1 armor. It also helps a lot against siege tanks, as we all know.
I just wanted to put that information out there, because I get the feeling that a lot of people think zerglings are terrible against marines, and banelings are needed.
Banelings are needed at some point, yes, but by upgrading your speedlings, you can push that point back by quite a bit. It also helps against terrans who move out aggressively with small amounts of marines to snipe expos and so on, and to cleanup the marines and reinforcements after the banelings do their thing.
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35 Marines vs. 70 Zerglings just may not be even. You want to change balance, but you dont think of the fact that zerglings are close-comabt units and Marines shoot. When the Marines form a ball, not every Zergling can attack, and that's what makes the difference and it is good like that.
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Nice observation!
I'm surprised we don't see more Tier 1.5-with-upgrades play. It seems very strong for all three races, and it progresses well into the later game because the upgrades apply powerfully to your tech units. (Of course, it's hard to scout the opposing main that way.)
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well 35 marines is a lot less production than 70 zerglings even though its cost is even because of how zerg production works. I would never pit 70 lings against 35 marines simply because of how inefficient it would be with larve. Banelings solve this, they save larve by dealing splash damage.
But, I think you are right, armor is a great investment against terran (upgrades in general are always good to keep efficiency with your army) but I'm not really sure what this has to do with strategy.
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It doubles the life against siege tanks by the way, they now take 2 shots instead of 1 shot. Against unsieged tanks it will however always continue to take three (not as they upgrade though)
The point is that it depends heavily on the unit they're paired against, it sounds very nice against marines and siege tanks, against marauders it's completely irrelevant though, it will still take 3 shots. It also doesn't matter against Hellions, blue flame or not.
It also doesn't matter against thors, no matter the carapace, you will get one-shot as a ling,
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imho, marine are not a problem in ZvT early/mid and mid/late game (u have either baneling or baneling/infestor) they are only a problem with 2 rax build and i'm not so sure anyone can find the time to upgrade carapace against a 2 rax.
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Yep, Carapace is extremely important for ZvT because of the way the units work. This also makes your banelings able to get close enough to deal more damage, and prepares well for Roaches or Ultras or anything else. There literally is no downside to a fast +1 carapace as long as you can pull it off.
Oh, and 35 marines with micro absolutely wreck 70 lings, these micro-less examples are a little bit silly in my opinion. Microing pretty much always favors the Marines.
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almost every good player knows that carapace is vital against terran.
that being said, the problem is how many shots marines with stim get in on the lings before they actually get to the marines, surround, and attack efficiently. thats what makes them bad.
also, a huge ball cant be surrounded effectively.
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On December 19 2010 22:13 emc wrote:
well 35 marines is a lot less production than 70 zerglings even though its cost is even because of how zerg production works. I would never pit 70 lings against 35 marines simply because of how inefficient it would be with larve. Banelings solve this, they save larve by dealing splash damage.
But, I think you are right, armor is a great investment against terran (upgrades in general are always good to keep efficiency with your army) but I'm not really sure what this has to do with strategy.
For rate of spending cash on Zerglings or Drones or Marines or Marauders, 1 Hatchery + 1 Queen ~= 4 Barracks (or 2 Barracks with addons). The production facility costs are similar for Terran as for Zerg, and tilt heavily towards Zerg if the Zerg buys more expensive units since larva is larva.
In Broodwar, Zerg has expensive production facilities compared to Gateways/Raxes (unless you were buying Zerg's big units, which were gas-expensive) but in SC2, Queens cost half a hatchery and do the work of between 1 and 1.5 hatcheries, depending on the quality of your injects. This greatly decreases Zerg overhead costs.
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I made it my maxim always(!) to start 2 upgrades before Lair (usually Rangend&Armor), but when i think i might use a lot of Banelings i go for Attack and more Speedlings and it works very well against my oppenents. (I'm around 2100 Zerg Diamond). It's useful in nearly every MU and sometimes i got 2/2 before my opponents even finished their first Attack upgrade which is usually a death sentence for their army (especially a marineheavy). Plus it makes Zerg viable for some funky timing attacks which are usually the ones that hit you, now u can show them T and P's what it's like hehe.
I don't recommend it for everyone it has to fit your style, but i play usually kinda macro oriented and it's soooo helpful to have upgrade advantage and if you have a slightly better economy cause their harrasses get defended it's nearly always GG.
It makes me upgrad-loving-guy really depressed when i see Pro Games and Upgrades Start around 14:00 or something...not that it is always bad to not upgrade, but they're just tooo good IMO!
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Im not saying that marines in the midgame are a big problem, but Im pointing out that fast carapace helps a lot, more than most players think. It takes 30% longer for marines to kill lings, thus pushing back the time at which lings become useless due to vaporizing before reaching the marines
Usually, we see speed -> baneling nest -> baneling speed -> upgrades.
It might be worth it to instead go speed -> carapace -> baneling nest -> baneling speed -> carapace (2)
Since carapace lings are much more efficient, you can afford to make the baneling nest a little later. That carapace upgrade also helps out the banelings a lot against marines, and since you can then afford to have a higher ratio of lings to banelings, you can probably end up saving gas in the long run, even though you made an extra upgrade.
Its worth pointing out that this really only works with carapace. +attack looks sweet for lings, but in reality isnt really that good against terran, since they will still die just as fast while trying to get into melee range. In addition, the attack upgrade doesnt actually help out banelings, roaches, or infestors.
Dunno, Im not saying its the best thing ever, Im just trying to point out that it looks like it would be sweet and useful, that it looks worth it to experiment with faster carapace, and that while terran low tier units are scary, terran actually invests in a lot of upgrades early to make those be scary, and that if you match his upgrades, suddenly they are not nearly as scary.
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Definitely could be useful against early/midgame marine aggression. Although if you get carapace before baneling nest it seems like a timing window would be created and you'd be vulnerable to marine all-ins before carapace finishes. I would probably feel safer getting my baneling nest up first and then start the carapace upgrade. But early upgrades really aren't used enough right now, it really boosts t1 units immensely in the early game. For example +1 melee attack zergling timing attacks against protoss can be ridiculously powerful.
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OP, Zerglings are just a really bad unit against Marines, there is no way around that. It does not matter how upgraded they are, obviously it makes them a little better but they still are nowhere near cost effective. It's just way too easy to kill most of them before they even get to start attacking.
Banelings, although we rarely see them used this effectively, can kill around 20 marines for 2. If people would start burrowing or dropping them, there would be no amount of micro for Marines to beat Banelings!
On December 19 2010 23:17 Severedevil wrote:
For rate of spending cash on Zerglings or Drones or Marines or Marauders, 1 Hatchery + 1 Queen ~= 4 Barracks (or 2 Barracks with addons). The production facility costs are similar for Terran as for Zerg, and tilt heavily towards Zerg if the Zerg buys more expensive units since larva is larva.
In Broodwar, Zerg has expensive production facilities compared to Gateways/Raxes (unless you were buying Zerg's big units, which were gas-expensive) but in SC2, Queens cost half a hatchery and do the work of between 1 and 1.5 hatcheries, depending on the quality of your injects. This greatly decreases Zerg overhead costs.
You're ignoring the fact that Zerg uses the same structure to make Drones and Overlords. That's a huge oversight and it makes your statement meaningless. 1 Hatch does not even produce as much as one CC. Add the queen and you've basically got a racks. No one ever seems to get that but it's the reason Zerg HAS to FE or DIE. Simply not enough larva otherwise.
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upgrades add a bit of spice to timing attacks since you will have the gas most of the time. especially if they kick in at the same time as you attack and the opponent only saw the 0/0/0, throws of his calculation and he will prolly underestimate the force and make a mistake. Works against zerg players the most, since they tend to get only whats just enough, to hold it off.
But sc2 works atm by the flavor of the month and non standard strategies can win you the most games really early.
I mean 8/10 terrans play heavy bio in tvt, toss only knows dts and sentry/gateway heavy against a terran. And 9/10 zergs go for a fast expand with lots of lots of lings.
Well now every toss tryes this 1 gate proxy gate.
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This doesn't negate the fact that marines have 5 range and zerglings are at melee range.
Also, zerg also rarely gets a fast evolution chamber up for a fast upgrade. In fact, it is harder for the zerg player to get the gas to support an upgrade at such an early stage where they should be pumping into their economy (especially considering that Zerg loses a drone for building an evolution chamber).
I do, however, support the notion that the zergling-marine matchup be tested. I think the numbers will surprise people because most people stop building zerglings in favour of teching after about 30 or so zerglings, and, upon losing to 20+ marines, cry op. IMO it's doable if you catch the marines off-guard, out of their ball position. I'd make proof but I'm lazy. Charts would be nice though ,_,
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On December 20 2010 01:51 telfire wrote:OP, Zerglings are just a really bad unit against Marines, there is no way around that. It does not matter how upgraded they are, obviously it makes them a little better but they still are nowhere near cost effective. It's just way too easy to kill most of them before they even get to start attacking. Banelings, although we rarely see them used this effectively, can kill around 20 marines for 2. If people would start burrowing or dropping them, there would be no amount of micro for Marines to beat Banelings! Show nested quote +On December 19 2010 23:17 Severedevil wrote:
For rate of spending cash on Zerglings or Drones or Marines or Marauders, 1 Hatchery + 1 Queen ~= 4 Barracks (or 2 Barracks with addons). The production facility costs are similar for Terran as for Zerg, and tilt heavily towards Zerg if the Zerg buys more expensive units since larva is larva.
In Broodwar, Zerg has expensive production facilities compared to Gateways/Raxes (unless you were buying Zerg's big units, which were gas-expensive) but in SC2, Queens cost half a hatchery and do the work of between 1 and 1.5 hatcheries, depending on the quality of your injects. This greatly decreases Zerg overhead costs. You're ignoring the fact that Zerg uses the same structure to make Drones and Overlords. That's a huge oversight and it makes your statement meaningless. 1 Hatch does not even produce as much as one CC. Add the queen and you've basically got a racks. No one ever seems to get that but it's the reason Zerg HAS to FE or DIE. Simply not enough larva otherwise.
You're exaggerating rather severely.
A Hatchery produces 4 larvae every minute. A CC can only make 3.5 SCV per minute.
A Queen produces 6 larvae every minute. A Barracks can make 2.4 Marines every minute.
You can spend pretty much all of the minerals off of one base with a single Hatchery + Queen, so long as you're making an army at least as expensive as pure Roach, or 50/50 Zergling/Baneling.
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It's a known fact since beta that carapace is better upgrade against terran than anything else, precisely because of marines. Z just needs to keep up with upgrades and their unit efficiency is just fine.
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Just some small updates:
You mine 80 gas in the duration of an evo chamber building, so to get +1 armor, you want to start ling speed, wait until you have 70 gas, and then start your evo chamber, so you will have exactly 150 gas when it finishes. (mining from a single geyser)
Should you want to get +1 attack (perhaps against toss), then you would need 30 gas right as you start your evo chamber.
And here is a replay of me trying it out
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/118848-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
Obviously Im terrible, and the terran wasnt amazing, though he was 22xx rated.
Im behind on workers for most of the game, and behind in food by like 20-30 for most of the game too, but I never really felt threatened. I actually thought I was ahead for most of the game 
The idea for now is to upgrade speedlings, and make sure to always have a ton of them around, with a couple of banelings. To stay ahead on bases, and keep denying the third. Everytime he moves out with small forces, crush them, rebuild army, same spot as before, all is good.
If he doesnt move out, that usually means that he is either massing up, or switching to a different techpath.
In that case, the idea is to use the lings already out on the field to be perfectly safe from any attack, while at the same time pumping out 10-20 drones, and taking all the extractors, and then switching to a slightly different army composition involving more gas units. If he is just massing up, adding in a ton of banelings is always good, and if he is techswitching, then corruptors vs air, or mutas vs hellions.
Ill try and add some more replays of mass upgraded lings tearing terran armies appart, though for now the build is still very rough, Im having trouble injecting enough to have enough larva for so many lings, and the ladder seems to give me only ZvP and no terrans. I shall keep working on it though, the strategy looks promising 
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The issue here is that marines are so amazing early on, but then pretty bad the moment lair tech rolls around. Stutter stepped marines decimate slowlings, but once speedbanes and infestors hit the field, marines become so fragile.
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Carapace doesn't just help zerglings. Roaches benefit a bunch from carapace as well. It's an overall great upgrade to get. But I already see a lot of fast +1 armor from Zergs. Idra likes doing it, if I remember correctly.
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EPT
