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EasternSun
Bulgaria7 Posts
Note - i know how to time my pushes if i am waiting for some vital upgrades to the army,i don't have problems with that,i have problems finding the right time on the early protoss pushes - 4 gate,void ray,dt rush,3 gate robo push and some of the mid game pushes,so any help,tips will be greatly appreciated. Note2 - i don't have problems with the macro or the build orders,just the best time to push early and mid game. Tnx in advance. | ||
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brainpower
United States233 Posts
Other than actually playing the game, there is no way to have a planned out timing window like that. | ||
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TheGiz
Canada708 Posts
When Charge/Blink finishes. When expo goes down. First/Second Colossus When Thermal Lances finishes. When any +1 Atk finishes. Also ANY TIME to keep pressure up. Protoss is about map control, pressure, and preserving units. Constant attacks without losing units will help keep your opponent on his toes and will allow you to out-expand him. | ||
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bearjuice
United States98 Posts
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EasternSun
Bulgaria7 Posts
My habits from Broodwar didn't help me much at sc2  I've been training for 3 months,watched pretty much every tournament and caster,so pretty much i have perfected the basics,build orders,macro and began to play ladder at last couse i am ready, but i as i said even if i do a perfect bo with decent macro the whole game i miss the timing to attack by 30 seconds or 1 minute early game,simply waiting for another set of warping units.And mid game i find myself at clearly huge macro advantage yet i don't push and wait to make even bigger army,which is quite annoying because it give the opponent a chance to catch up. As for scouting i haven't perfected this yet,i scout with a probe early,see what the oponent does,but if i do a bo that doesn't include robotics i am in the dark afterwards. Anyway thx for the reply's,they've been most helpful. Of course any more help will be greatly appreciated. Cheers | ||
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GibbleLojic
4 Posts
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
DON'T LOSE UNITS. This means if you want to harass and you know you will lose ANY units, don't do it. Instead, just sit outside their vision and build a pylon. Any time you have research finishing, try to be pressuring this way. That way if you can bait their army out, and then charge/blink/+1/range goes down all of a sudden you can roll their army usually. Don't doubt that +1 can make you roll an army with lolz on the side. Expanding behind the pressure is clutch, but if you can macro you know this. As far as timing units, when they pop, be sure to BE READY for them. Day[9] presses this so hard, don't rush to collosus and have 4 zealots, its silly. Everyone does it, but work on not doing it. When your second immortal pops, be ready with a bunch of stalker/zealot, and push, fucking hard. | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
The hard answer is ....experience. The more quickly you recognize what your opponent is doing and knowing when it is vulnerable is ultimately a tool crafted by experience. Knowing what is effective when and in what number as well as how to respond to a spine crawler/bunker. It all comes with trial and error. The best way to get really good at timing attacks is to get a Practice Partner. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
First Immortal When Charge/Blink finishes. When expo goes down. First/Second Colossus When Thermal Lances finishes. When any +1 Atk finishes. Is a pretty bad guide to follow. The idea behind timing attack is when your opponent decides to play too greedy, or too tech heavy with not enough units, you can attack him before his economy/tech investments kick in, because you can have an army advantage at that point in time. Now, if you know a certain way that players play commonly, and you feel like it can be punished (because, like I said it's either too greedy or too tech heavy,) THEN you modify your build so that you can have an OPTION once you scout your opponent to reinforce your army, and perform the timing attack, the timing being while your opponent's investment still didn't kick in. Obviously, the way you want to modify your build is so that you can make investments that will make your army stronger, so that they kick-in slightly before your opponent's do so you get a stronger advantage, but the timing itself is created by your opponent's actions, not by when your upgrades finish up. | ||
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EasternSun
Bulgaria7 Posts
So which should i prefer - to response to whatever i scout my opponent is doing in terms of pushing or should i push when i get a certain condition in my bo - like stated above -first immortal,blink,expo and so on?Or perhaps a combination of both.Or is it situational for every match.Thanks. | ||
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dreamsmasher
816 Posts
resetting waypoints for units if you're reinforcing or not. best is to do all of that I said above but move out BEFORE your upgrade is done and have it timed so that your upgrade finishes as you engage. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
Consider the act of getting colossus range in PvT. You're the one making an investment, if the terran scouts it he has 2 good options. He can either timing push you before colossus range is done, or he can prepare against ranged colossi. If he didn't timing push you and you finished your colossus range (and you have your first 2 colossi,) it's a good idea to assume that he prepared for colossi instead. if you follow a lot of the advices here, you can attack into your opponent thinking you have a timing because of colossus range, and meet an army of marauder/medivac/viking, and get absolutely smashed. Then you'll probably end up making another thread here asking why Terran is so strong, when in reality you never had a timing in the first place. It was your opponent that had a timing, which he chose not to use offensively, and the fact that your colossus range finished simply meant that you're no longer vulnerable to your opponent's ability to exploit your lack 400/400 minerals/gas, that you've put into the robo bay, and colossus range. This doesn't at all suggest that you're ahead army-wise and you should attack. You MAY be ahead, for example if he expanded, but that has to do with a completely separate timing that once against has to do with an investment that he's made (expanding), not an investment that you've made. | ||
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Millitron
United States2611 Posts
I propose that the idea of a "Timing push" is too broad of an idea to be applicable in a real game. I propose that there are in actuality there are 3-4 kinds of timing pushes. First, is the self-reflective push. These occur when you wait for a specific factor on your end of the push, i.e. stim is ready, or your raven has enough energy for a PDD. Next is the composition-reflective push. These are when you push with a given composition based on what you know your opponent's army consists of. i.e. pushing with a mech army because you know your opponent has invested heavily in banelings. Third, is the positional-reflective push. These occur when you push when the opponent's army is either too far from the push to counter effectively, or they have taken up a disadvantageous position which you can use to punish them, i.e. either the opposition is off, busy clearing rocks from a gold expo, or your opposition has melee troops (especially effective against ultras) at the bottom of a ramp, which will funnel them into your concave. The final, and most difficult push to time, is the larva-reflective push. These come in two flavors. First, they can occur when you notice your Zerg opponent spending larva on drones. If they spend larva on drones, they will be unable to reinforce their army for however long it takes new larva to spawn, leaving their force lighter than would be expected, and vulnerable. Second, they can occur to force your opponent to spend larva on "useless" units. Air-based harassment can force the Zerg to invest (and hopefully over-invest) in hydralisks, which are terribly vulnerable to the actual army which consists of tanks/thors/collosi. edit: fixed some typos | ||
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CurLy[]
United States759 Posts
I find early game super important vs zerg. if they do 14 hatch you NEED to punish. 1 gate core, 2 chrono boosted Stalker aggression is my favorite but you need to retreat before speedlings are out. Play a few games see what time it is finished. Also gas timing is pretty important vs zerg, gas before pool, pool then gas, hatch no gas.. etc. Also blocking the hatch with a probe is awesome, you just wanna delay that shit as long as possible imo. My 2nd timing is usually around the 7 min mark, as thats basically right before when mutas can pop out. 3 gate into expand is pretty safe if you put on enough pressure. At this point after your first pressure they may be into roaches already so scout that before you push, if they are you may want to drop a robo because a common follow up to roach is generally hydra so you will want colossus anyway. Don't be afraid to sac probes once in awhile for scouting too.... its so worth it. | ||
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Proto_Protoss
United States495 Posts
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Gemini_19
United States1222 Posts
A good, simple example would be a 4gate. When do you push? When warp gates finish. What's another one? On a 2base 6 gate push with +1 attack upgrade when do you push? When the +1 attack upgrade finishes. These are more simple ones and can be a little risky as you aren't relying too much on what your opponent has, but instead what you have. The other type is doing a timing push based off of what your opponent is doing, or also known as a timing window that can be abused. One of the biggest examples of this is muta's in PvZ. About a minute (probably less) or so before their spire finishes, they are going to be saving larva, money, and supply. This should activate a gigantic siren in your head saying, "ATTACK NOW!" Since he isn't making anything, if you attack at just the right time he will have to either 1) Build a ton of zerglings at an awkward time 2) Wait however long to make the muta's like he wanted. Both options leave him very vulnerable. Most timing pushes that are based around what you are getting instead of what the opponent is doing usually are pretty strong anyway, that it may not matter. But doing timing pushes based off of what the opponent is doing can not only be more effective, but much more safe and won't put you in an "all in" type situation if you suddenly lose to unpreparedness. | ||
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