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A Baneling costs 50 minerals and 25 gas (25/25 + zergling). It deals 20+15light damage upon exploding, and has a respectable splash radius.
Players have found banelings to be very useful in multiple situations, like against the Terran bioball and even blink Stalkers (typically with Fungal Growth). However, what is your opinion on using Banelings to destroy structures?
A baneling deals 80 damage against structures, with upgrades giving up to 95 damage. Most structures however have LOTS of health. The supply depot and pylon are the lowest at 400HP, and most military structures float around ~1000HP. It takes 5 banelings to break a supply depot, costing 250min/125 gas. A typical 1000HP structure requires 11/13 banelings to destroy, costing from 550M/225G to 650M/325G. A bunker takes 5 banelings (6 if he's repairing and you don't have upgrades), costing a taxing 250M/125G to break. This isn't counting the defenders struggling to stop your Baneling bust.
Is this ever worth it? Do you find the Baneling is useful for destroying structures? What's the most damage you have done to a base with Banelings?
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Ever seen banelings roll down a PF? Yep, it's useful for the same reason you need banelings against repaired thors too.... and then there's baneling bust for chokes. But that's all for terran. There's much less need to go banelings against protoss much less doing it for building kills.
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I only even think about using Banelings against Terran or Zerg. Protoss has the shields, and therefore it will take twice as long to destroy one unit, or twice as many units suiciding. That's too much of a loss for me to think about doing, when Roaches are pretty decent T1 units.
For protoss, I either mass Speedlings, go Roach Muta, or Roach Hydra, depending on what I feel like when I decide to do it.
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Ever seen banelings roll down a PF? Yep, it's useful for the same reason you need banelings against repaired thors too.... To kill the SCVs, you mean? 20 damage isn't much against a Thor.
Crashing through a PF takes at least 16-19 banelings, which is NOT cheap. It seems to be a very expensive way of getting the job done.
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It's not just a question of whether it's worth the cost, it's also whether losing all those banelings will leave you open to a push. You could decimate their entire economy and any shot they have at ever mining again, you still could lose if your army is gone and their army is big enough to steamroll you.
Another thing to remember when trying to work out cost efficiency in Zerg vs X, is that Zerg is expected to have more bases and a better eco, or they're going to lose. 1:1 cost efficiency is EXTREMELY good for Zerg (in fact it is way too much to ask for in most games).
Generally Banelings aren't "cost efficient" at all, and it's a little bit more intricate than just whether they're efficient. They are the only way to effectively deal with large amounts of Marines, and yet they cost 25 gas while Marines cost none. Still, that doesn't mean it's not worth it. It's just you have to take the entire game scenario into consideration when you're deciding if an attack is worth it or not.
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in a recent game that husky casted, might have been a haypro game, don't remember who the opponent was, but banelings were used in the late part of the game to run into an undefended expansion and take out the fortress
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Banelings are only good for destroying in-base structures if they are clustered (due to splash damage). If your opponent built 4 pylons in a square however... you can instantly supply block him because 5 banelings will destroy all 4 pylons. They are also good at destroying clustered cannons for this reason.
Honestly though, if you have banelings in your opponent's base, you're almost always better off using them to blow up workers.
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Banelings are good for destroying clustered structures, and sometimes great for destroying walls.
Destroying static defences is never cost-effective, and if you're destroying a wall, a wall is basically a static defence. I don't think anyone is going to use banelings to destroy a barracks or gateway when there are other, more cost-effective units to kill.
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One thing to note is that Banelings are the most cost-effective way to take out a Planetary (especially if you get all the SCVs also) short of Ultralisks (Ultralisks are best since none will die, but if the Planetary has additional defenses or if they try to repair then Banelings might still be the best way to handle it since they also deal lots of AOE damage and deny repairing)
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Baneling cost efficiency is in splash damage, not specific damage types. Hit two or more buildings at a time and they're being cost effective.
Terrans that do a double rax factory wall off are giving you more area to hit. IF you focus your banelings on the factory, through the choke of the two Baracks, all three buildings will fall.
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On December 01 2010 05:32 telfire wrote:
One thing to note is that Banelings are the most cost-effective way to take out a Planetary (especially if you get all the SCVs also) short of Ultralisks (Ultralisks are best since none will die, but if the Planetary has additional defenses or if they try to repair then Banelings might still be the best way to handle it since they also deal lots of AOE damage and deny repairing)
This is just soooooo wrong. Banelings are not cost effective against one building, ever. Especially not the highest health building you can possibly go after. Remember, banelings are one time use. A couple fungals for the scv's and one mutalisk would be the most cost effective counter to a PF. Or hell, just mutas. They'll splash the scv's, and can't take damage from the PF.
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Allred mentioned a few posts up about having Banelings show up in the late game to take out an undefended expo (from a Husky-cast he said), and I've had a few games like that myself. Blings are really effective for the result they achieve instead of the cost they have. Think of them like using a scan...you gain detection and vision in an area, probably scouting a base for tech, but you miss out on the opportunity to gain 270 minerals faster for something else.
Blings work in much the same fashion, you destroy an expo for great cost, or break through a supply depot, which can be game-winning to get your troops into their base or deny the expansion to starve your enemies of resources. You "lose" the large mineral/gas cost to accomplish this, but you do get something out of it. This resource loss is offset by Zerg traditionally operating at least 1 base more than whoever it is they are playing against. The concept of playing Zerg, the swarm, is "More" of everything.
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On December 01 2010 05:40 Uncultured wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 05:32 telfire wrote:
One thing to note is that Banelings are the most cost-effective way to take out a Planetary (especially if you get all the SCVs also) short of Ultralisks (Ultralisks are best since none will die, but if the Planetary has additional defenses or if they try to repair then Banelings might still be the best way to handle it since they also deal lots of AOE damage and deny repairing) This is just soooooo wrong. Banelings are not cost effective against one building, ever. Especially not the highest health building you can possibly go after. Remember, banelings are one time use. A couple fungals for the scv's and one mutalisk would be the most cost effective counter to a PF. Or hell, just mutas. They'll splash the scv's, and can't take damage from the PF.
In most realistic situations versus a terran using mutas, they will turret up the planetary.
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Banelings vs buildings is only useful for breaking walls. ZvT if I scout a weak wall (single layer supply depots), I'll pump speedlings, use 6-7 banelings to kill a depot, then wreak havoc in his base.
Otherwise, only waste a baneling on a building if there's nothing else to use it on. Like...if all their units are dead and they haven't gg'd yet. Zerg buildings heal, Terran buildings can be repaired. and Protoss buildings have shields. Useful only in special situations.
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Only to break terran wall ins or one shot pf's. It can be almost impossible to snipe a pf with scv repair and the way unit targetting priority works. Good luck killing 20 scvs with zerglings when you have to individual target each one. Easier just to throw a bunch of banelings at it. While it's a no brainer that you will lose a lot of resources blowing up a pf, you will however prevent the terran from mining making the cost effiecient quite good (especially gold expos with mule drops).
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Banelings can very well be cost effective at killing a gaggle of SCV's repairing a Planetary Fortress so that you can kill it in a more cost effective way. They aren't going to be cost effective for actually killing the Planetary Fortress unless you're getting something else in the splash, although you could in theory gain some kind of time-related advantage by doing it very quickly with a bunch of Banelings.
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On December 01 2010 04:54 bobucles wrote:
Crashing through a PF takes at least 16-19 banelings, which is NOT cheap. It seems to be a very expensive way of getting the job done.
The reason PF's are considered OP by some is exactly this. Killing it with banelings is more efficient than killing it with roaches, lings, or hydras. Banelings let you smash it before it can be repaired. They are a completely valid option.
A lategame tactic I use quite frequently nydus baneling attacks. Like on metal, if you have a 50/50 map split, you just pop a nydus in one of the other mains, and rally to their nex/cc. Since the nydus spaces units as they come out like it does, PF's are actually quite vulnerable to a stream of banelings. It doesn't even require you to move your army away from your main.
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Have you ever seen 150 banelings crash into a PF, while also killing their marine tank thor army and the surrounding SCV's/production buildings?
It's usually followed by "gg"
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i like to see zerg players use nydus alot. especially late game i think it is under used. especially if you have several go up at the same time. very difficult to stop because if terran moves his army to 1 to defend you just harass the other. totally underused imo
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On December 01 2010 04:54 teh_longinator wrote:
I only even think about using Banelings against Terran or Zerg. Protoss has the shields, and therefore it will take twice as long to destroy one unit, or twice as many units suiciding. That's too much of a loss for me to think about doing, when Roaches are pretty decent T1 units.
For protoss, I either mass Speedlings, go Roach Muta, or Roach Hydra, depending on what I feel like when I decide to do it.
Um.... Banelings in fact, do not take twice as long to destroy one unit because of shields.. The reason that protoss isnt THAT vulnurable to banelings is because they have many non "light" units in their army, such as stalkers, which banelings suck against.
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banelings were made for terran and zerg, maybe not intentionally for zerg but that's how they panned out. Against toss I find them effective only in the very early game and the very late game. Early game, their splash can actually wreck sentries if they are close enough to the FF (if you get a surround this is possible) making ling/bling pretty effective early game but it's a risk. Late game they are the own with drops on colossi and sentry balls. I would say banelings are good against Toss just because they destroy sentries so well and they are so valuable.
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On December 01 2010 04:54 bobucles wrote:Show nested quote +Ever seen banelings roll down a PF? Yep, it's useful for the same reason you need banelings against repaired thors too.... To kill the SCVs, you mean? 20 damage isn't much against a Thor. Crashing through a PF takes at least 16-19 banelings, which is NOT cheap. It seems to be a very expensive way of getting the job done.
Yes, he means the scv's, you hurt the thor and definitely the PF, but you kill many scv's which ends the repair process.
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On December 01 2010 07:50 emc wrote:
banelings were made for terran and zerg, maybe not intentionally for zerg but that's how they panned out. Against toss I find them effective only in the very early game and the very late game. Early game, their splash can actually wreck sentries if they are close enough to the FF (if you get a surround this is possible) making ling/bling pretty effective early game but it's a risk. Late game they are the own with drops on colossi and sentry balls. I would say banelings are good against Toss just because they destroy sentries so well and they are so valuable.
Banelings are ok against a zealot heavy toss, which you rarely see post 1.12. But with lings being so good against zealots and stalkers provided you keep up with upgrades it seems a waste to turn them into blings. Especially when you know you're going to be seeing some sentries.
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The economy of a match is one of inflation. Resources are constantly entering your economy. The closer to the start of the match: the more valuable the resources are. As the game progresses and more minerals and gasses are mined, each unit of mineral or gas is worth less because there are so many other units of mineral and gas in use and stockpiled.
So it is inefficient to take out his natural expo with 30 blings in comparison to a 3rd or 4th expo as long as you have a much bigger economy and later in the game.
The dmg is nearly instant and time is money right?
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if you are good enough and circle the banelings around you can take out the fortress and most of the scv's which would make it worth it because now they can't even transfer those scv's to another patch and has to spend the money repairing it
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On December 01 2010 05:40 Uncultured wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 05:32 telfire wrote:
One thing to note is that Banelings are the most cost-effective way to take out a Planetary (especially if you get all the SCVs also) short of Ultralisks (Ultralisks are best since none will die, but if the Planetary has additional defenses or if they try to repair then Banelings might still be the best way to handle it since they also deal lots of AOE damage and deny repairing) This is just soooooo wrong. Banelings are not cost effective against one building, ever. Especially not the highest health building you can possibly go after. Remember, banelings are one time use. A couple fungals for the scv's and one mutalisk would be the most cost effective counter to a PF. Or hell, just mutas. They'll splash the scv's, and can't take damage from the PF.
Lol U clearly don't play Z.
Banelings, pre broods and ultras ARE the most effective way of taking out a PF lol
Sure mutas are good, but a Terran that has the state of mind to PF an expo will always build turrets there too, so mutas become redundant.
Banelings are not cost-effective but are used for the quick/hard hitting. A pf is meant to stall for time till the T army comes back. Banelings kill the PF's fast enough that reduces the time the T can re-inforce.
Play Z sometimes to appreciate how cost-effective your protoss units are.
(i'm playing P to appreciate how fast Z can replenish army/drones) =]
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On December 02 2010 03:57 me_viet wrote:
Play Z sometimes to appreciate how cost-effective your protoss units are.
(i'm playing P to appreciate how fast Z can replenish army/drones) =]
When I play Z tbh I cry at how easy it is to get your third without having lings and mutas surround and slaughtering it, and at how you can get away with not building any units until you actually see the opponents army ;o
And I appreciate P cost-effectiveness until I remember about roaches and marauders.
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Of course killing a planetary fortress with banelings will seem inefficient if you only compare the cost of the PF with the cost of the banelings. But you have to remember that every second they're not mining your attack becomes more efficient. There's also all the SCVs they've invested in which are now either not doing anything or oversaturating a base.
Also, a lot of the time a PF will be built at a high yield (Xel Naga Caverns for example) so that helps too.
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19 Banelings VS. throwing tones of resources, time, and headache at a PF.
The latter also includes:
Investing in Brood Lords, the time it takes to morph Corruptors, Hive, and morph the Corruptors into Brood Lords, and move them SAFETLY to the PF.
Ultralisks: similar issues.
Mutalisks: Massing enough muta's while being able to hold off Terrans pushes.
Where 19 Banelings..... I definatly have 19 Zerglings floating around somewhere....... >.>
It's quicker in the end to use Banelings. Any expo that is mining is more resources for Terran to catch up. It's not resource efficiant, but looking at the long term it has a greater detrimental economic impact for Terran.
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I personally haven't played much Zerg yet, but I find that a few Baneling Mine patches of four or five each work quite well against a Bio Ball at least as long as they are not scanning every step of the way, and can weaken other armies, yet you maintain enough resources and supply to establish a decent sized army without getting crushed.
But against buildings, I think a few to weaken it and than roll in with the army works well, straight Banelings may not be effective against a main base, unless they are all very closely packed supply depots or bunkers, because splash can hit several at once, and either destroy the defense in terms of bunkers, or stop any more production by destroying depots.
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It is highly inefficient to take down structures with banelings. But they represent a unique strategic option to deal IMMENSE amounts of burst damage, for a much greater cost than typical units which would function on more of a dps basis and take a long time to take down those buildings.
For example, a wall-in at the top of a ramp. Strictly speaking it's not at all cost effective to destroy a depot with banelings. However if that hole in the wall in lets you pour in with zerglings and do immense economic damage, then the banelings paid for themselves many times over.
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On December 01 2010 05:40 Uncultured wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 05:32 telfire wrote:
One thing to note is that Banelings are the most cost-effective way to take out a Planetary (especially if you get all the SCVs also) short of Ultralisks (Ultralisks are best since none will die, but if the Planetary has additional defenses or if they try to repair then Banelings might still be the best way to handle it since they also deal lots of AOE damage and deny repairing) This is just soooooo wrong. Banelings are not cost effective against one building, ever. Especially not the highest health building you can possibly go after. Remember, banelings are one time use. A couple fungals for the scv's and one mutalisk would be the most cost effective counter to a PF. Or hell, just mutas. They'll splash the scv's, and can't take damage from the PF.
I'm sorry but you're mistaken. There are many instances of pros using Banelings against Planetaries. If you are in a position where you can afford to lose that much army, it is absolutely the best way to do it. Your fungals will never go off, the range is too short. Anything you throw at a Planetary is going to die.
I'm not saying it's always a good idea to take out a Planetary with Banelings, but it IS sadly one of the best ways to do it.
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On December 01 2010 05:40 Uncultured wrote:
This is just soooooo wrong. Banelings are not cost effective against one building, ever. Especially not the highest health building you can possibly go after. Remember, banelings are one time use. A couple fungals for the scv's and one mutalisk would be the most cost effective counter to a PF. Or hell, just mutas. They'll splash the scv's, and can't take damage from the PF.
Only because of how you're trying to define cost-effectiveness. It's more than worth it to deny a 3rd when you're already up a base. It's more than worth it to bust a hole in a wall to let the rest of your army in. It's more than worth it when you don't have the luxury of time to beat on a CC/OC/PF while it's getting repaired and their army is coming.
There are many situations where its worth it, which is exactly why it gets done, even in the high rounds of GSL. "Never" is just a stupid thing to say in this scenario, when "never" is clearly wrong.
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On December 01 2010 05:40 Uncultured wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 05:32 telfire wrote:
One thing to note is that Banelings are the most cost-effective way to take out a Planetary (especially if you get all the SCVs also) short of Ultralisks (Ultralisks are best since none will die, but if the Planetary has additional defenses or if they try to repair then Banelings might still be the best way to handle it since they also deal lots of AOE damage and deny repairing) This is just soooooo wrong. Banelings are not cost effective against one building, ever. Especially not the highest health building you can possibly go after. Remember, banelings are one time use. A couple fungals for the scv's and one mutalisk would be the most cost effective counter to a PF. Or hell, just mutas. They'll splash the scv's, and can't take damage from the PF.
If you think banelings are a bad choice against planetary fortresses, then you need to play more SC2.
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Banelings are a great unit, even versus Toss. Obviously they are great against zealots, but they are also great when dropped on collossi clumps.
Search: Banelings answer to weak
There is a thread that discusses the use of dropped banelings v Toss and it's really quite effective.
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On December 01 2010 05:37 Uncultured wrote:
Baneling cost efficiency is in splash damage, not specific damage types. Hit two or more buildings at a time and they're being cost effective.
Terrans that do a double rax factory wall off are giving you more area to hit. IF you focus your banelings on the factory, through the choke of the two Baracks, all three buildings will fall.
Is there a picture floating around on the internet that shows in nice friendly colored circles what the splash radius looks like versus how much damage is done at a given distance from the point of impact?
I know that if you roll right into a barracks/double SD wall, and suicide them all at a barracks, it'll splash enough to kill the SD's too... but I generally don't use banelings because I don't understand the splash mechanic very well.
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On a similar note, if you derp a bunch of banelings into a thor, will any SCVs touching it eat the splash?
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sometimes spending a lot of minerals now to prevent a LOT of minerals for your opponent later is totally worth it (killing a PF, breaking a wall, etc.)
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They're good for busting early terran walls and for killing PFs. Using them on PFs might seem expensive but PFs are exceptionally difficult to kill with repairs and a defending army. They're generally used on very important third/fourth bases. Taking down such bases can be a really big deal and it's often impractical to do it via other methods.
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On December 04 2010 10:01 mlbrandow wrote:
Is there a picture floating around on the internet that shows in nice friendly colored circles what the splash radius looks like versus how much damage is done at a given distance from the point of impact?
Here is what you need to know about baneling splash: It doesn't go down over distance. The damage is even across everything it hits.
When you're going after that PF, run your banelings around the sides to try to splash the workers too. When you're busting a terran wall off, aim for the most central building and you'll take out the supply depot on the side while splashing everything around it, taking out addons and starting production on fire. When you're chasing workers but can't quite catch up, don't be afraid to detonate yourself as you will still get some.
Abusing baneling splash is awesome :D
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If you think of just the min/gas efficiency of say, breaking down a supply depot in a wall, then no it is not efficient (250/125 vs 100).
But, it makes itself cost effective if you have zerglings behind it because that supply depot not only held material value, but positional as well.
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Banelings become increasingly useful when Zerg get to that absolutely econ dominating situation, but for whatever reason can't really overcome that turtling Terran's forces.
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On December 01 2010 05:06 Allred wrote:
in a recent game that husky casted, might have been a haypro game, don't remember who the opponent was, but banelings were used in the late part of the game to run into an undefended expansion and take out the fortress
Again Jinro on Jungle Basin, oh wait that was Day9daily, but the same action happened with overlord drops.
For your game, if I remember correctly, it was on metalopolis against the 3rd right? Sorry but I can't remember the player either =D.
Anyways I think this is unnecessary, as that would cost too much, not to mention it comes from your army and requires APM.
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EPT
