I recently played a ZvT match, which I obviously lost Afterwards, when I was watching the replay, I couldn't really make out a weakness in my opponent's build or a point in the match where i could have crushed him. Maybe it's just me being not-that-pro but I would really like to hear some opinions about that. I think if executed properly it can be very difficult to play against such a build. I will include the replay of the match I'm talking about in this thread and hope to get some feedback on what could have been better and where I could have pushed!
Use mutas to keep him on the defense until he has enough turrets to defend. Hopefully you can expand and get a much better economy in the mean time. When you pulls out if there is no hellions you can just use massive armies of zerglings to wear him down. At 20 zerglings for the cost of a Thor you should be able to win if you keep your macro up. If he gets hellions or if you want to be extra safe you can build roaches too but they're much harder to keep up with supply.
yea true..but I tried that..i let him see a few mutas which made him throw down a lot of turrets. My problem was that he just moved on with his whole army every time he took an expansion and due to the turrets i could not crush his main...i'm not sure if mass lings would have done any change because he had something around 10 siege tanks at the end...was just a difficult situation
Yeah I see that would take good micro to get a good sorround to properly defeat his army. Maybe borrowed roaches would fair better in this circumstance and then bring in the zerglings as they unborrow and attack.
I recently switched from protoss to terran and I constantly go tank/thor v Zerg. My play has gone from about a 600 diamond level toss to 1800 level terran play (judging this based on the people I'm able to consistently beat in in-house play). I find that if my opponent goes any kind of muta build it's an instant win for me because I just push and win. Doesn't matter that I lost all my SCVs I have MULEs.
What seems to work well for the zerg who face me is to expand twice asap and mass roaches and banelings while teching to greater spire or ultras (if ultras get drop tech so the ultras can be dropped straight into the mech ball). The zergs I play with complain that it's too hard to tell whether I'm going mech or bio and to this I say SACRIFICE SOME DAMN OVERLORDS/OVERSEERS. Changelings work occasionally too, but I'm pretty good at spotting them, so sac some overlords to see what tech im going.
I'll try to play some matches vZ tonight and upload the reps, but scouting seems to be the answer for terran mech imo
Mass lings and ultras should take it down. If not, maybe try and micro with infestors, but you'll need something to tank the damage as you get close. There's a game by LiquidRet that has this type of micro.
Against mech you can go muta/ling (use "magic box") or roach infestor (use nural parasite on thors). Bouth of the options beat mech outright, as long as you do it right, thats why mech play is non existant @ pro lvl TvZ
On November 18 2010 04:26 DoomsVille wrote: Dependingon the number of thors, magic boxed mutas are extremely effective.
It doesn't matter how many mutas survive, as long as all the thors die, even 1 muta alive wins the rest of the battle.
If you have roughly 5-6 mutas per thor, you're good to go.
That's 10 supply of mutas for every 6 supply of thors, assuming they don't cap. But yea I like this because mutas also do splash and take care of scvs.
I've seen lings and ultras take down almost everything in custom maps, and ultras have the same supply as thors. So not realistic in actual gameplay for ling/ultra?
On November 18 2010 04:23 Risen wrote: SACRIFICE SOME DAMN OVERLORDS/OVERSEERS.
I knew all the time which build order he chose..my problem was that i didn't know how to prevent his bo and counter it.
On November 18 2010 04:23 Risen wrote: I'll try to play some matches vZ tonight and upload the reps, but scouting seems to be the answer for terran mech imo
I'd be glad to see a replay which shows such a situation! thx a lot for that!
On November 18 2010 04:23 Risen wrote: I'll try to play some matches vZ tonight and upload the reps, but scouting seems to be the answer for terran mech imo
I'd be glad to see a replay which shows such a situation! thx a lot for that!
the key weakness of terran mech is mobility. u should have mutas constantly putting threat on him, so he is scared to move out/secure new expansions and has to spend lots of resources on turrets before being able to move out.
then u should know when he moves out and prepare ur forces to flank him and ideally catch him unsieged.
that's right indeed! guess that could have worked out quite well in that match. Next time I encounter such a build I try to contain him in his base. hopefully that's the ticket
I'm in the same situation as you I hate playing against thor tank. The way i handle it now is I mass expand and keep his tank numbers low by running in with lings/mutas and sacrificing them. Also overseers help tons when you contaminate their factories. So I guess my strategy is avoid being in a position where he has enough tanks. then of course lings/hydras destroy thors. |use infestors if he has rine support (or banelings its personal preference really)
Just watched your replay. I'm a ~1500 diamond Terran and ~1000 diamond Zerg, so I've played that build and played against it more than a few times.
In that game, you could have easily beat him had you had the proper tech and scouting. That was your biggest weakness. You didn't scout his base. At all. EVER. Near the very end of the game you tried a poke with 3-0 mutas, but it was far too late. As soon as he saw you make 5 mutas, he blew SO much money on turrets.
Also, you didn't spend any of your money. When his final doom push came, you had ~3k minerals and ~1500 gas. If the game hits 28 minutes and you're not on hive tech, you're pretty screwed, since if you try to use hatch tech units (you went roach ling) against a critical mass of tanks, its gg.
Containing him in his base doesn't have anything to do with it. The key is using your race's strengths. You play Zerg. They're an expanding/teching race. He played so passively the entire game (I think he left his base only for his doom push), that you definitely could have taken every base on your half of the map, made hive tech, and had 10+ ultras or brood lords when his push hit. Sure, contain him with mutas in the early game, but your mutas were so late that by the time you attempted to pin him in his main, it didn't matter.
Brood lords are very underused, and against anything with tanks in it, they are very good. Have you heard of zealot bombs in Brood War? Broodlings do a very similar thing. They attack the Thors and his tanks shoot at them, thus doing massive splash to his army. I go mass Roach/Brood Lord against Tank/Thor. As long as you scout and take as many bases as possible, you are pretty much guaranteed victory if Terran plays that passive.
I can't watch the replay at the moment, but the basics shouldn't change too much.
Mech has very limited mobility. This makes it difficult to secure expansions with Mech, and also makes it more challenging to stop expansions by your opponents.
Mech also happens to be very good cost-for-cost, and pushes VERY hard. If you let a Mech player push with a maxed army and you didn't out-macro them, you're probably in pretty rough shape - your army (most likely) won't be able to stop their push, and at that point they're free to start tearing into you. It's not a guaranteed loss, but it's a bad place to be.
First, expand. Take as many bases as you can, so that you can support as much production as possible.
Second, harass. Mech is going to have all kinds of trouble defending any kind of spread out position. It doesn't matter if he's moving his whole army, if he's spread out, you can get in SOMEWHERE - if he pushes for a third, send Mutas at his main. If he turrets up, he's spending a bunch of resources (which is great), but it also doesn't prevent you from, say, running a bunch of Speedlings into his main. If he moves his army back to stop you, hit him somewhere else. The more damage you can do, the longer it's going to take him to build up, which is great for you.
Third, don't be afraid to trade units with a Mech player. He should have less of a capacity to re-produce those units than you do, plus he's looking for critical mass. If you can trim him down a little and come out close to even, it's a win for you.
Fourth, don't forget about tech. If you're taking the map, shutting down expos, harassing your opponent's mineral lines/picking off depots/etc, and keeping his death-ball from getting too big whenever he exposes it, he's almost forced to turtle. If that's the case, you're going to have more of an opportunity (and need!) to tech: anything below T3 just isn't ideal for busting a turtling opponent. It just so happens that T3 units work pretty well against Mech as well, so there's little reason not to get them. Also, don't skimp on your upgrades! Your opponent probably won't be, and they make a big difference, especially in the late game.
Finally, don't get over-eager. If you've got a macro advantage and are teching and upgrading, time is on your side. Don't feel like you need to suicide your entire flock of Mutas to kill off turrets at his base so you can do some damage. Mech play is focused on winning with strong pushing. If at any point you lose a bunch of your army for no reason, your opponent has an opportunity to GG you right there. Your goal is to prevent him from being able to kill you with an all-out push. If you can do that, you've won, it's only a matter of time.
Thanks a lot Boundless & Dominator1370! Very helpful comments! I'll try to expand more and more quickly. Early expanding and harassing is just a big issue to me because I'm most of the time not entirely sure when to do so. Guess I just need to practice scouting and reacting more... Anyways thanks a lot to all you guys!
EPT
