[H] 5 Roach versus 4 Gate

On November 17 2010 02:36 Effect010 wrote:
I recently played a 1on1 on Xel´naga caverns... I played the five roach rush and some lings while he went for a 4 gate...i went up the ramp got forcefielded and lost everything..what could i have done better? where were my mistakes? my opponent siad i should have retreated after kicking his gate but i don´t think that i had done enough damage and would simply be counterattacked.

here´s the replay:
http://www.file-upload.net/download-2978958/5roachvs4gate.SC2Replay.html

i´m about 1100 diamond and he was 600 diamond.

On November 17 2010 02:41 Akill_ wrote:
tbh your first mistake was assuming that a 5 roach rush would do anything versus a defended ramp by protoss.

my first suggestion if you do this regularly would be to send a solo ling up the ramp first and keep the rest back in the fog. if his army size looks breakable/no sentries around go for it.

Otherwise this rush seems pretty weak, i dont play z but from what ive gathered you sac econ for thisrush. if it doesnt work the p can just macro from a decent economy and a good unit infrastructure and within a couple minutes he will be pounding on your door. especially if he works out you rushed for the roaches.

On November 17 2010 02:47 Effect010 wrote:


i thought the roach rush works out against a 4 gating protoss...i have never had good experiences with expanding against that build... but tbh i think without the forcefield i would have won...

edit: thinks like this only works out against low level players^^

On November 17 2010 02:52 Akill_ wrote:



this is my point. protoss is bound to have some early defence mechanism versus zerg. against melee/range 4 units and a single tile ramp its bound to be a decent forcefield. the theme is common throughout early game p v z. protoss use their buildings and forcefields to stop the early zerg threat from having potential by denying alot of combat manuevers. Protoss who have learnt the hard way will always get out the sentry for the forcefields and back it up with some decent dps from the stalker or a cannon.

I would probably look towards exploring an economy build for zerg that encompassed an expansion and lings/spines for defence. 1 base z v 1 base p is very likely to allow p the macro victory if he has weathered z storms before

On November 17 2010 02:36 Effect010 wrote:
I recently played a 1on1 on Xel´naga caverns... I played the five roach rush and some lings while he went for a 4 gate...i went up the ramp got forcefielded and lost everything..what could i have done better? where were my mistakes? my opponent siad i should have retreated after kicking his gate but i don´t think that i had done enough damage and would simply be counterattacked.

here´s the replay:
http://www.file-upload.net/download-2978958/5roachvs4gate.SC2Replay.html

i´m about 1100 diamond and he was 600 diamond.

On November 17 2010 03:09 MilesTeg wrote:
Hm total theory crafting here but couldn't you use an overlord for vision on some maps? And at least pick off some buildings to let the lings do the work.

Sorry if it's noobish!

On November 17 2010 04:09 liano wrote:
IMO 7RR > at your 5RR + metaboost build : simply because it's done like 30sec sooner.

You arrived at his base just when his warpgates were done, so he just had to buy some time and warp some units to ruin your push.

you could have had an overlord for vision and pick off that pylon on the edge to supplyblock him and also don't kill the gateways lol XD, enter past them and kill units + pilons or probes, but gateways got too much health, it's a waste of time.

On November 17 2010 02:41 Akill_ wrote:
tbh your first mistake was assuming that a 5 roach rush would do anything versus a defended ramp by protoss.

my first suggestion if you do this regularly would be to send a solo ling up the ramp first and keep the rest back in the fog. if his army size looks breakable/no sentries around go for it.

Otherwise this rush seems pretty weak, i dont play z but from what ive gathered you sac econ for thisrush. if it doesnt work the p can just macro from a decent economy and a good unit infrastructure and within a couple minutes he will be pounding on your door. especially if he works out you rushed for the roaches.

On November 17 2010 03:09 MilesTeg wrote:
Hm total theory crafting here but couldn't you use an overlord for vision on some maps? And at least pick off some buildings to let the lings do the work.

Sorry if it's noobish!

On November 17 2010 03:05 Jayrod wrote:

5RR and 7RR are both very weak openers in my opinion that dont play towards the strengths of the race. Some ~2000 zerg 7 RR'd me and i had 2 stalkers out, 2 more about to pop and warp gates nearing completion and I held it off, losing quite a few workers but more importantly still realizing i had a huge advantage. Putting 14 supply into an army that early as zerg is pretty counterintuitive and it really tips your opponent off to counter attack once theyve dealt with the push. When I cleaned up his army i pushed out immediately and was met half way to his base by about 16-20 lings. Well lings without speed just plain suck so once I saw that he wasted even MORE larva on things other than drones i knew i had already won. I picked lings off, waited for blink to finish and promptly crushed him.

When you're forced to choose between drones and units it makes early aggression feel very all in. As your opponents get better and as they have more solid builds, builds like 5rr and 7rr will just completely stop working for you. Roaches without speed are easy to micro against as are lings without speed. Lings WITH speed on the other hand, will make your opponent think twice about pressuring you as much without fast blink.

On December 01 2010 11:03 shmoo wrote:
5RR is too aggressive and has no follow up.
7RR lets you expand as your roaches move out, start ling speed, and drone hard.
Having an overlord to grant vision is very useful, often you can snipe some units or buildings then backoff without losing anything. Grats you now have an expo and have caught up in worker count.

7RR is not an all in, its just a safe way to apply early pressure, force them to be defensive, and get an expo out of it. If they are greedy, it will punish them. Even if all you can do is kill 300 minerals worth of stuff then back off, you have 7 roaches to defend with. 7 roaches, some lings, and two crawlers can defend against a 4 gate quite easily while you drone a little to pass the toss then just keep making units.

On December 01 2010 11:03 shmoo wrote:
5RR is too aggressive and has no follow up.
7RR lets you expand as your roaches move out, start ling speed, and drone hard.
Having an overlord to grant vision is very useful, often you can snipe some units or buildings then backoff without losing anything. Grats you now have an expo and have caught up in worker count.

7RR is not an all in, its just a safe way to apply early pressure, force them to be defensive, and get an expo out of it. If they are greedy, it will punish them. Even if all you can do is kill 300 minerals worth of stuff then back off, you have 7 roaches to defend with. 7 roaches, some lings, and two crawlers can defend against a 4 gate quite easily while you drone a little to pass the toss then just keep making units.

On November 17 2010 22:06 DaemonX wrote:
The build that deals with 4-gate consistently is the 7RR-all-in. This hard-counters 4WG, as you arrive almost a minute before his warp completes, and he has too few gas units to hold off.
The problem is the super-fast 7RR is a blind all-in on most maps, unless you are close air positions or steppes of war, and therefore considered pretty cheesy.

On December 01 2010 18:08 pwncakery wrote:
I don't get all the shit dumped on 5 and 7 roach rushes. I don't use 5rr's, but I open 7rr pretty frequently on close spawn metal, blistering and steppes. I've found it to be highly effective against T and P. For some reason even though I'm not 14 hatching terrans still love to 2rax+scv rush. Even if they don't, not many are opening marauders so I still have a fairly easy time causing damage. Against protoss this build is a little more hit or miss. I find if villain is chronoboosting warpgates like a fiend I'm in trouble, but anything else is pretty easy to disrupt. Bringing an overlord along to spot highground in case of forcefields is easy due to the short distances. The followup to this rush is pretty simple: ling speed and a hatchery as you're moving out and determine your larva use based on the result of your attack.

Here's a game I 7rr'd about an hour ago on blistering. Villain's ~2k protoss.

On December 02 2010 00:35 MorsCerta wrote:
If terran is opening marauders and you are finding it easy to case damage with roaches the terrans you face suck. Period.

On December 02 2010 03:10 pwncakery wrote:

I said it's rare to find a terran opening with marauders, thus it's easy to inflict damage...because terrans will rarely have marauders.

On December 02 2010 03:36 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Zerg's advantage is in macro. 5RR and 7RR are simply cheese imo, and any solid opponent in high diamond will scout and defend nearly 100% of the time. Play defensively as zerg until you can exploit a macro advantage.

If you want a build that is both extremely economical and flexible, try the 11Pool 18Hatch being perfected on my thread. It is especially good for players who fear early aggression like 4gates, 6pools, or 2rax marines. Here is a replay of it in action.



This felt like the easiest 4gate I have ever held off because I had so many units out quickly. At first I assumed my opponent was making a mistake, or was possibly going 3gate-expand, but the replay shows he did fairly well in keeping his resources low and drone count high.
After holding off two attacks I prepare for a mid-game timing attack before his late expansion can reap dividends.