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On November 17 2010 20:13 Blu3 wrote:
The whole point of the 7 RR (or variations of such) is that while your roaches reach your opponents base, you can both get speed for your lings (which I usually just have sit behind roaches until the walloff is taken out, and speed is finished) and THEN, get an expansion.
Remember, while we attack, we should expand.
Roaches take down the wall and zlots, and then the Slings run in and kill stalkers/sentries (who no longer have any energy.
The key is to get speed and expand. This is a lot of macro.
I'm only a top platinum player, so take it for what it's worth.
BluE
If you manage to get up the ramp into the Ps base, it is very likely that he will just die. But any good Protoss player is able to identify that youre going roaches and will just quickly get a sentry to forcefield the ramp while chronoboosting another sentry. This delays the attack long enough for him to get enough units. Then you are behind in eco and will get owned by either some kind of immortal+gateway push or simply by him taking an expansion and going into a macrogame and killing you with some kind of 2 base timingpush.
whatever roach rush you are going for, it is pretty much an allin and it definitely does not have "a lot of macro"...
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I used 5RR for over 1 month on ladder vs toss as my only build to investigate its potential.
And I learned that good, fast 4-gate (ie first warp cycle before 6 mins) is a hard counter to 5RR.
You will beat a lot of slower 4-gates or 4-gates at lower skill levels. But a perfect excution will have 2 full warp cycles complete before you bust open the ramp between 5:55 and 6:15. This means either your lings will get FFd out, or a large ball of stalkers will just exchange your men in his base, - and off one hatch you can't replenish without eco loss; he can,. and you will die 3-4 mins later (your relatively late expo will be denied before it finishes by his counterpush, and you will lose, in my experience).
5RR *crushes* things like 2 gate, 2 gate robo, proxy harass, void ray rush, DT rush.
Even if you don't kill, you will do damage or prevent their intended harass while expanding and be well ahead. The roach wave can kill an enourmous number of zeals, and once the speedlings mix in you can take out a decent number of stalkers. Without warp tech you can sit at his production and gg him, or take out masses of probes.
But a lot of these builds have fallen out of popularity recently, and the 5RR is less powerful as a result. Any build that puts a lot of firepower down before 5:30 mins hard counters the 5RR. Forge-FE, 3-gate wall-in, 3-gate (delayed) robo, 4WG all rape you.
The build that deals with 4-gate consistently is the 7RR-all-in. This hard-counters 4WG, as you arrive almost a minute before his warp completes, and he has too few gas units to hold off.
The problem is the super-fast 7RR is a blind all-in on most maps, unless you are close air positions or steppes of war, and therefore considered pretty cheesy.
So wait till then, or know your man, or make a metagame play - the 7RR can beat some other builds too.
But if it's scouted and he's not committed all-in, a forge-wall will go up and you are ggd, so don't risk it foolishly.
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Bring an overlord... Atleast that gives you some kind of chance.
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Hey I think your rush was great in the game you posted and would have been MUCH more successful if you had actually pushed up the ramp after the first FF dropped. When you pulled back to regroup it only gave him more time to add units and prepare another ff, though you had easily a large enough hole to throw your lings through while your roaches hammered the second gateway. He couldnt ff the ramp again becasue your roaches were already up it, so if you could get a few lings through (you only got two through before he ff'd THE RAMP again) and micro them close to the roaches, the roaches could easily pick off hte z's while you whittled the second gateway down.... then total gg.
This completely wouldnt have worked though if he had been smart in his ff's and thrown one down ont eh ramp right away so his sentries could gang up on the lone roach with vision.
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Hi Effect, I'm HardCorey and ive just started trying to do a video series of answering questions on various threads that provide replays. I took a look at your replay and I just uploaded the video. I talked a bit about the outcomes of doing all-ins and the differences between Protoss and Zerg 1 base plays.
http://hardcorey.blip.tv/file/4451278/
My Main Thread
Hope this helps,
-HardCorey
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5RR is too aggressive and has no follow up.
7RR lets you expand as your roaches move out, start ling speed, and drone hard.
Having an overlord to grant vision is very useful, often you can snipe some units or buildings then backoff without losing anything. Grats you now have an expo and have caught up in worker count.
7RR is not an all in, its just a safe way to apply early pressure, force them to be defensive, and get an expo out of it. If they are greedy, it will punish them. Even if all you can do is kill 300 minerals worth of stuff then back off, you have 7 roaches to defend with. 7 roaches, some lings, and two crawlers can defend against a 4 gate quite easily while you drone a little to pass the toss then just keep making units.
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On December 01 2010 11:03 shmoo wrote:
5RR is too aggressive and has no follow up.
7RR lets you expand as your roaches move out, start ling speed, and drone hard.
Having an overlord to grant vision is very useful, often you can snipe some units or buildings then backoff without losing anything. Grats you now have an expo and have caught up in worker count.
7RR is not an all in, its just a safe way to apply early pressure, force them to be defensive, and get an expo out of it. If they are greedy, it will punish them. Even if all you can do is kill 300 minerals worth of stuff then back off, you have 7 roaches to defend with. 7 roaches, some lings, and two crawlers can defend against a 4 gate quite easily while you drone a little to pass the toss then just keep making units.
You have it backwards. The REAL 5RR build has an expansion started when the roaches are a third of the way across the map, and ling speed done before they hit. It's a pressure-expand build, far from an all-in, and if the opponent doesn't respond correctly or overcommits to stalker/marauder what have you the speedlings will kill him outright.
A correctly done 7RR is an all-in, but a more powerful attack that hits earlier than the 5RR.
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Roaches are too slow early game, it's either make it big or lose all your roaches. They also cost a lot of supply which is terrible for zerg because you must use more larve for overlords. It's extremely risky, I would only consider doing this against terran but it wouldn't be a rush, it would be a roach timing attack designed to remove scvs from the worker line and sniping them as they repair. This is something fruitdealer does against terran but never against toss because of how deadly forcefields can be.
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On December 01 2010 11:03 shmoo wrote:
5RR is too aggressive and has no follow up.
7RR lets you expand as your roaches move out, start ling speed, and drone hard.
Having an overlord to grant vision is very useful, often you can snipe some units or buildings then backoff without losing anything. Grats you now have an expo and have caught up in worker count.
7RR is not an all in, its just a safe way to apply early pressure, force them to be defensive, and get an expo out of it. If they are greedy, it will punish them. Even if all you can do is kill 300 minerals worth of stuff then back off, you have 7 roaches to defend with. 7 roaches, some lings, and two crawlers can defend against a 4 gate quite easily while you drone a little to pass the toss then just keep making units.
Umm thats the opposite of the truth.
The 5RR is the only roach rush that has any real chance of a transition. And it is the strongest roach rush. Why people do the 7RR is beyond me. 5 Roaches +8-12 speedlings is > then 7 roaches. People probably just cant micro roaches and speedlings at the same time. And if you decide hey, I don't think I can break this, you are not as far behind in ECO as the 7RR and you already have ling speed.
However the 7RR is almost entirely all in, no ling speed and in order to get an expo up you have to cut even more drones leaving you further behind. Not to mention both of these are crappy ways to play zerg and once they stop being effective you actually have to learn how to play.
In general both of the rushes are very crappy and should only be part of your repertoire if you see protoss going for a forge FE or nexus first (ie. canceling your expo and going roach all in.)
TL;DR
Roach Rushes are a good way to get into diamond, and then not know how to play zerg. Don't roach rush.
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On November 17 2010 22:06 DaemonX wrote:
The build that deals with 4-gate consistently is the 7RR-all-in. This hard-counters 4WG, as you arrive almost a minute before his warp completes, and he has too few gas units to hold off.
The problem is the super-fast 7RR is a blind all-in on most maps, unless you are close air positions or steppes of war, and therefore considered pretty cheesy.
No. If any toss worth his points scouts a 7RR he WILL make sentries and hold it off while going double gas. Trust me on this. If you go sentry after zealot, it will come out before the 7 roaches arrive, and two more can be chrono'd out before WGs finish, at which point you can just keep the FF up and continue to warp in units until you roll out and stomp the econ-deprived zerg.
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To be honest, Protoss doesn't even have to scout this build to stop it. I can stop this with no sentry, only stalkers, with a normal, passive opener.
If Protoss has a zealot and 2 stalkers when you arrive with 5 roaches, all he has to do is pull off 8 or so probes and he will hold your rush easily, and will be ahead of you.
I almost never get a sentry even if I scout the roach rush. I just chrono out stalkers. With good micro, the stalkers hold off the rush just fine, and put you in a better position than if they had just decided not to attack due to spotting a sentry.
Sentry is a waste of production cycle because it moves slow and has a low attack range/damage, thus can't be used very well on the offensive in small numbers. I try to get by with the bare minimum of sentries that I need to avoid wasting cycles/gas that can be used on tech, and you just don't need a sentry to hold off this rush.
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The way i see it, it's quite simple really. You went with an all-in attack (5RR), he had a standard opening focussing on probe production. You attacked, didn't do enough damage and so you were from that point behind because you went for attacking units early while he went for probes early. Once he caught up in attacking units, it was over. He was too far ahead in economy.
Not a great build for a map that you spawned cross-position. roaches are slow!
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The 5RR is pretty bad against anything except FE or super fast tech(even then, its not the best). If the protoss is diamond, he should be able to correctly forcefield, which pretty much ends your rush, and you are economically behind. Honestly, the metagame is at a point where 4 gate all in can be defended with roachling even after 15 hatch, and I don't see a reason why you would want such a committed all in pressure. 5RR IMO is just a bad strategy and it is only effective against overly greedy protoss or maps with backdoor.
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What I do is send the second overlord to their base it should reach by the time your Roaches get there. This should allow your Roaches to snipe his buildings.
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5RR only really works against Toss when they 2-gate, FE or when they over-commit to cannon rushing your nat (and waste a bunch of minerals). It's got really crisp timings, but just doesn't cut it when you have to rush up a ramp held by sentries and a good sim-city. 4 gate is probably one of the worst builds to 5RR against, as the toss can hold you with sentries and then crush you when his big production capacity kicks in. Then you've got no econ, no army, an unsaturated nat and a 4-gate knocking on your door.
That said, I've found this build useful when I want to all-in or in 2v2 games. Knowing the general timings is nice if you want to transition into this after after seeing an opportunity develop during the game.
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I don't get all the shit dumped on 5 and 7 roach rushes. I don't use 5rr's, but I open 7rr pretty frequently on close spawn metal, blistering and steppes. I've found it to be highly effective against T and P. For some reason even though I'm not 14 hatching terrans still love to 2rax+scv rush. Even if they don't, not many are opening marauders so I still have a fairly easy time causing damage. Against protoss this build is a little more hit or miss. I find if villain is chronoboosting warpgates like a fiend I'm in trouble, but anything else is pretty easy to disrupt. Bringing an overlord along to spot highground in case of forcefields is easy due to the short distances. The followup to this rush is pretty simple: ling speed and a hatchery as you're moving out and determine your larva use based on the result of your attack.
Here's a game I 7rr'd about an hour ago on blistering. Villain's ~2k protoss.
![[image loading]](http://starcraft2reps.com/replaylink.php?id=2345)
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If you're going to 5 or 7rr, let me give you some advice as a zerg
a> use your lings and your overlord to at least scout his ramp and build
b> drone up like crazy afterwards
c> drone BEFORE you expand and tech up at the same time after you expand
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On December 01 2010 18:08 pwncakery wrote:I don't get all the shit dumped on 5 and 7 roach rushes. I don't use 5rr's, but I open 7rr pretty frequently on close spawn metal, blistering and steppes. I've found it to be highly effective against T and P. For some reason even though I'm not 14 hatching terrans still love to 2rax+scv rush. Even if they don't, not many are opening marauders so I still have a fairly easy time causing damage. Against protoss this build is a little more hit or miss. I find if villain is chronoboosting warpgates like a fiend I'm in trouble, but anything else is pretty easy to disrupt. Bringing an overlord along to spot highground in case of forcefields is easy due to the short distances. The followup to this rush is pretty simple: ling speed and a hatchery as you're moving out and determine your larva use based on the result of your attack. Here's a game I 7rr'd about an hour ago on blistering. Villain's ~2k protoss.
If terran is opening marauders and you are finding it easy to case damage with roaches the terrans you face suck. Period.
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Well my guess would be because you 5 roach rushed and he was ready for it (4 warp gate) you lost. He did the counter build to your build putting you at a disadvantage. Thats the thing with rushing its really luck as to how well it is going to work.
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EPT
