If you missed it Day9 analyzed a sweet match yesterday where QXC made nothing but reapers vs a toss player who went blink stalkers. Amazingly QXC won and it got me motivated to try this myself. I also had great success. I went 8 wins 2 losses in my last 10 ladder games doing a mass reaper opening (1600 diamond).
As day9 was saying this build flows really well. Since reapers are only 50mins you can get lots of barracks and expand quick while pumping our reapers none stop. I do the basic OC start, 4 rax with tech labs who produce reapers none stop, then I expand and put up bunkers.
The beauty of going mass reapers is you can contain your opponent early because if he leaves his base you can easily punish him with your reapers, and you can easily transition into mass MMM.
Definitely check out the Day9 daily from November 14th if u missed it.
My Replays:
And I will also include a replay of a game in which I lost:
It's a very map dependant build though. On smaller maps with a different geometry, this might not work at all as not everywhere is so much space to swing around, manouver and such a long rush distance. On God's Garden it does indeed work perfectly well, but on other maps the pin will be far less effective and you might just get rolled with a timing push that includes a few robo units.
Yeah played against this earlier today on ladder. Not sure how to counter it yet since I've only encountered it once. Did an early expo on LT and he went 4 rax reaper. Was hard to leave the base at all because 10 reapers beat 2-3 stalkers and cannons get demolished as all buildings do. Bunkering his front stopped my gateway unit immortal combo. Probes get raped obviously.
When reapers had the speed upgrade at barracks tech, this was viable. I used to do it quite a bit too, but now it's complete trash. Never do it versus protoss.
On November 16 2010 07:55 avilo wrote: When reapers had the speed upgrade at barracks tech, this was viable. I used to do it quite a bit too, but now it's complete trash. Never do it versus protoss.
Thank god the expert came to tell us not to do it! Seriously, if you're going to make a post like this, at least provide a replay or something other than "this strategy sucks"
reapers stand no chance against stalkers lol... and u cant contain toss since they can just warp in stalkers to their mineral line, idk what ur talking about here...
Obviously mass reapers won't work once the game progresses and higher tech units come out, but how about early reapers to get map control and expand (maybe twice) and what not then transition into a better unit mix.
On November 16 2010 07:55 avilo wrote: When reapers had the speed upgrade at barracks tech, this was viable. I used to do it quite a bit too, but now it's complete trash. Never do it versus protoss.
Thank god the expert came to tell us not to do it! Seriously, if you're going to make a post like this, at least provide a replay or something other than "this strategy sucks"
I'm going to second Avilo on this - tried it for that one funday monday challenge, lost a few games, came to the conclusion that it sucks. You can't really skirmish with a race that has shields, and you can't really outmuscle them in a straight up fight. If they ever manage to tech up, you're screwed, and if they don't you're still trying to ski uphill.
Hmm... Stalkers seem like they ought to be the answer, along with good vision and some aggression. I'd guess the best way to deal with this would be like dealing with mass Mutas: punish him for ever leaving his base. Run a Probe along with your Stalkers and build a Pylon in his base before killing all his buildings. Might have some problems with him lifting off, but the aggression will essentially force him to return home or lose straight-up. Maybe a 50-50 army split could do it, as your Stalkers are more powerful than his Reapers and so could make him lose both offense and defense. Perhaps a 40-60 split would be even better, as you could reinforce back home much easier. The most important response, of course, would be an emphasis on armor (and shield) upgrades. The Reapers lose literally 33% of their damage output with the first upgrade, making them nearly worthless. A couple of Sentries would have a somewhat similar effect, but could be easily sniped (although the Reapers would take fire getting into position). Colossi would, of course, be excellent, but their high tech location and cost make that proposition less attractive.
NEVER GET +1 ATTACK VERSUS MASS REAPER. It won't increase your kill time by anything.
The strength of this strategy lies mostly in its unorthodoxy. I'm not saying it's a bad strategy, just not quite strong enough to stand on its own.
This right here is about as bad as the blizzard forums guys....
Please use your brains. This is not saying "Lols I make only reapers and beat Toss all the time lawls"
This is a very good post using thinking that more people should use. The post describes the USE of reapers to keep the protoss easily contained while you get production up and your expansion.
This is a beautiful idea because it's just the opener, make 8 reapers and never make another again, or maybe 15 is more your style and instead of a straight contain you do multi pronged harass or some shit.
One person above me mentions how reapers are useless after toss gets off of gateways. and yes this is a fact. Thats why after you see something like that you don't say to yourself "well shit, I just saw a stargate finish and a void ray start making. Better make more reapers"
^^That is pretty much what the "Mass Reaper doesn't work if toss gets off gateways" guy's mindset would be. QXC can show off and play pure reaper with a ghost or two because he's fucking QXC. Most normal people with a "Mass reaper" strategy would simply make a bunch of reapers. Use them effectively to pin back his opponent and expand. Fuck dude you could transition into anything, maybe even mass mech/thors from this reaper opening. We simply don't know cause it's not "normal"
On November 16 2010 07:55 avilo wrote: When reapers had the speed upgrade at barracks tech, this was viable. I used to do it quite a bit too, but now it's complete trash. Never do it versus protoss.
Thank god the expert came to tell us not to do it! Seriously, if you're going to make a post like this, at least provide a replay or something other than "this strategy sucks"
I'm going to second Avilo on this - tried it for that one funday monday challenge, lost a few games, came to the conclusion that it sucks. You can't really skirmish with a race that has shields, and you can't really outmuscle them in a straight up fight. If they ever manage to tech up, you're screwed, and if they don't you're still trying to ski uphill.
Clearly you must be missing something, the OP had a lot of success with it. You can't engage stalkers head on, but you can damn sure engage probes. If he warps in a round of units to defend, you will have enough reapers there to take them out no problem.
As someone mentioned in the above posts I can see this build being very map dependent, as in Scrap station, blistering sands, jungle basin and maybe delta quadrant. I will test this build out cause it seems quite promising but I really wouldn't think about doing this on small maps as a quick transition into losing your whole fucking base as protoss seem inevitable, as long as your prepared for the inevitable push out your good to go, definitely needs more exploring then just pushing it aside as crap.
On November 16 2010 07:55 avilo wrote: When reapers had the speed upgrade at barracks tech, this was viable. I used to do it quite a bit too, but now it's complete trash. Never do it versus protoss.
Thank god the expert came to tell us not to do it! Seriously, if you're going to make a post like this, at least provide a replay or something other than "this strategy sucks"
I'm going to second Avilo on this - tried it for that one funday monday challenge, lost a few games, came to the conclusion that it sucks. You can't really skirmish with a race that has shields, and you can't really outmuscle them in a straight up fight. If they ever manage to tech up, you're screwed, and if they don't you're still trying to ski uphill.
Clearly you must be missing something, the OP had a lot of success with it. You can't engage stalkers head on, but you can damn sure engage probes. If he warps in a round of units to defend, you will have enough reapers there to take them out no problem.
I've beaten 1600 players with all sorts of whacky builds, because I played better than they did. That doesn't mean that those builds are any good. I would expect to see replays from the OP before placing any faith in a strategy that is awful both on paper and in my personal experience.
Everyone talking about "penning P up in his base" is forgetting that at some point he'll have enough stalkers, probably off of one base, that he can just walk over and kill you, and killing all his probes won't be much consolation when your base is a smoking crater.
I've been trying it out, mass reaper is a good start but you need to transition into mass bio (mostly marauders) with some air support. Works pretty well as an opening, the toss can't push because he will lose any base trade action. I need to find a good time/trigger for transitioning into a more standard army. I will be using this opening in some ladder games vs toss as well.
On November 16 2010 07:55 avilo wrote: When reapers had the speed upgrade at barracks tech, this was viable. I used to do it quite a bit too, but now it's complete trash. Never do it versus protoss.
Thank god the expert came to tell us not to do it! Seriously, if you're going to make a post like this, at least provide a replay or something other than "this strategy sucks"
I'm going to second Avilo on this - tried it for that one funday monday challenge, lost a few games, came to the conclusion that it sucks. You can't really skirmish with a race that has shields, and you can't really outmuscle them in a straight up fight. If they ever manage to tech up, you're screwed, and if they don't you're still trying to ski uphill.
Clearly you must be missing something, the OP had a lot of success with it. You can't engage stalkers head on, but you can damn sure engage probes. If he warps in a round of units to defend, you will have enough reapers there to take them out no problem.
I've beaten 1600 players with all sorts of whacky builds, because I played better than they did. That doesn't mean that those builds are any good. I would expect to see replays from the OP before placing any faith in a strategy that is awful both on paper and in my personal experience.
Everyone talking about "penning P up in his base" is forgetting that at some point he'll have enough stalkers, probably off of one base, that he can just walk over and kill you, and killing all his probes won't be much consolation when your base is a smoking crater.
you can head over to the day9's VODs daily from yesterday to see QXC do it to it's extreme but I can post some replays if u like. I have never done this though, any suggestions on the best way to post them?
On November 16 2010 07:55 avilo wrote: When reapers had the speed upgrade at barracks tech, this was viable. I used to do it quite a bit too, but now it's complete trash. Never do it versus protoss.
Thank god the expert came to tell us not to do it! Seriously, if you're going to make a post like this, at least provide a replay or something other than "this strategy sucks"
I'm going to second Avilo on this - tried it for that one funday monday challenge, lost a few games, came to the conclusion that it sucks. You can't really skirmish with a race that has shields, and you can't really outmuscle them in a straight up fight. If they ever manage to tech up, you're screwed, and if they don't you're still trying to ski uphill.
Clearly you must be missing something, the OP had a lot of success with it. You can't engage stalkers head on, but you can damn sure engage probes. If he warps in a round of units to defend, you will have enough reapers there to take them out no problem.
I've beaten 1600 players with all sorts of whacky builds, because I played better than they did. That doesn't mean that those builds are any good. I would expect to see replays from the OP before placing any faith in a strategy that is awful both on paper and in my personal experience.
Everyone talking about "penning P up in his base" is forgetting that at some point he'll have enough stalkers, probably off of one base, that he can just walk over and kill you, and killing all his probes won't be much consolation when your base is a smoking crater.
And you're forgetting that you dont just make reapers. Does Zerg just make mutas? Does protoss just make dt's/pheonix's/voidrays? just make reapers and you die, doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
Question: Do you guys build reapers with that factory req speed upgrade? I hardly even think about reapers because of that. But I'm really starting to think if it is actually wise to go back to reapers?
At around 12+ reapers 4 warped in stalkers to the mineral line won't save you, at least 1 will die before it warps in all the way and 12 reapers can easily pick off 3 stalkers, probes are then easy pickings.
On November 16 2010 08:30 crueknight wrote: Question: Do you guys build reapers with that factory req speed upgrade? I hardly even think about reapers because of that. But I'm really starting to think if it is actually wise to go back to reapers?
In my experimentation with this build, i would get the upgrade very late but it's not important, since i'm transitioning into something different than reapers.
On November 16 2010 07:55 avilo wrote: When reapers had the speed upgrade at barracks tech, this was viable. I used to do it quite a bit too, but now it's complete trash. Never do it versus protoss.
Thank god the expert came to tell us not to do it! Seriously, if you're going to make a post like this, at least provide a replay or something other than "this strategy sucks"
There is not much else to say about it honestly. It was great when the speed upgrade was at barracks. Now it never will work.
Why would I provide replays for this when it's common sense? No one has to provide a replay for this type of thing. It's not a simple "oh, the strategy may not be as effective now." It's a matter of, "oh, blizzard completely altered the tech path to get the reaper upgrade, which makes it not viable."
The reason you could reaper versus P before was because of the speed upgrade, which allowed you to semi-contain them, and keep P at home and at bay. That's completely gone now, which is the only reason it worked in the first place. Otherwise, like anyone will tell you here, a simple 4 gate or any stalker build will just kill you.
The game is much more fleshed out now. So yes, I can confidently advise you (just like any good T would) that you should never do this versus protoss.
Let me put it this way - any good T here or myself encouraging you to go reapers versus protoss in this patch would be like encouraging you to open stargate in PvT in SC1. Yes, versus some bad players it might look like "wow that might have a chance of working!" but versus anyone that is even D+ iccup level you're actually hurting yourself by simply using a bad build/inefficient build order.
Is that a good enough explanation for you? By all means go ahead and do it, but it would only work up to around gold/platinum level...which yeah...doesn't say much for it's viability.
I really think after the first 8 or so reapers QXC could have switched to marauders and won the game much much earlier. Sure he had him pinned but he also forced the tosses unit comp in such a way that straight marauders would own.
On November 16 2010 08:38 Frosti wrote: I really think after the first 8 or so reapers QXC could have switched to marauders and won the game much much earlier. Sure he had him pinned but he also forced the tosses unit comp in such a way that straight marauders would own.
No, it's way later in the game that the transition should occur. You need a scary high number of reapers. capable of harassing and running around, to keep the toss pinned. They should be able to kill 3-4 stalkers easily (8 reapers won't cut it, more like 20 reapers). Warpin won't work, he has to keep the main army in his base.
And you're forgetting that you dont just make reapers. Does Zerg just make mutas? Does protoss just make dt's/pheonix's/voidrays? just make reapers and you die, doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
Yeah, you also have to throw in a few marawders dude.
I like how people say, "oh yeah warp in some stalkers when those 10 or 12 reapers are in your mineral line." When I was messing around with reaper/marauder having 2 rax making rauders and 1 making reapers nonstop. When I felt like harassing and moving 10-12 reapers into a base, it wasn't the mineral line i went for. 10-12 reapers like 3 shot any building. Who cares about probes when you just destroyed cybercore, 2 robotics and like 3 pylons before they get back in. And btw, most decent toss keep their pylons spread a bit, I see 6 stalkers warping in, i kill the 2 pylons powering that spot in about 4 seconds. Anyways, more people should be open to new strategy's. And the factory req for speed is not that big of deal, you go past factory for your medi's anyways. It only changed very early OP harass. "OMG not standard, this is a terrible build! Don't ever try this!" is not a good mindset.
On November 16 2010 07:55 avilo wrote: When reapers had the speed upgrade at barracks tech, this was viable. I used to do it quite a bit too, but now it's complete trash. Never do it versus protoss.
Thank god the expert came to tell us not to do it! Seriously, if you're going to make a post like this, at least provide a replay or something other than "this strategy sucks"
There is not much else to say about it honestly. It was great when the speed upgrade was at barracks. Now it never will work.
Why would I provide replays for this when it's common sense? No one has to provide a replay for this type of thing. It's not a simple "oh, the strategy may not be as effective now." It's a matter of, "oh, blizzard completely altered the tech path to get the reaper upgrade, which makes it not viable."
The reason you could reaper versus P before was because of the speed upgrade, which allowed you to semi-contain them, and keep P at home and at bay. That's completely gone now, which is the only reason it worked in the first place. Otherwise, like anyone will tell you here, a simple 4 gate or any stalker build will just kill you.
The game is much more fleshed out now. So yes, I can confidently advise you (just like any good T would) that you should never do this versus protoss.
Let me put it this way - any good T here or myself encouraging you to go reapers versus protoss in this patch would be like encouraging you to open stargate in PvT in SC1. Yes, versus some bad players it might look like "wow that might have a chance of working!" but versus anyone that is even D+ iccup level you're actually hurting yourself by simply using a bad build/inefficient build order.
Is that a good enough explanation for you? By all means go ahead and do it, but it would only work up to around gold/platinum level...which yeah...doesn't say much for it's viability.
of course it's non-sense to make a reaper-build on steppes against an one-base-4-gate-toss and of course it's (normally :S)only an early-game build which transitiones very well into a bio-build with early-ish expand.
the point is that it is quite effective on larger maps againt early expanding P where P has to spread his units out to defend so that you can largely outnumber the defenders on one point.
also reapers are not for containing, they are for punishing your opponent if he tries to move out. if he does so he is basically all-in and you have good chances to hold it with bunkers and pulling workers,
note: just like any muta-attack you shouldn't attack frontal against the giant protoss-ball with your reapers or else they will get raped.
I agree that reapers are a great option for surprising your opponent. As long as you don't get them all killed (hey lets engage the stalker ball head on) you can build them up slowly while pumping marauders. 10 Reapers should do about 200 DAMAGE to buildings which means to can hop up and 2-shot pylons or snipe a tech building (cybercore, citadel) relatively quickly.
All terrans will get the factory for their starport tech anyway so why not get the speed upgrade if you still have the reaper ball. Just like any banshee/hellion harass (you dont mass them either) the goal is to get ahead, not win outright.
Hi guys, PoisoN here, i was playing QXC in this match and let me tell you some things about it.
First off - It was a handicap, he was only using specialized units like reaper ghost
Second off - it worked damn well for the map. as there was 2 huge gaps to my base which was forcing me to split my army and as day9 anayzised things like stalkers can easily get picked off, thats why i stuck with gateway units and blink, giving me mobility to move between the harass.
Thirdly - Transitioning would be different, but it forces me to be on low count of bases while you have free minerals to expand.
After playing this game i feel that i've learned the most from this game, how such a good offense, even if it is weak can pin you down to your base, especially on such a large map and with good mobile units.
This is some cool early game action. Possibly making mech play more viable?
I'm just lazily theory crafting because i'm at work and have nothing better to do, but:
you could get ahead in expansions you need a factory for the speed upgrade you need a factory for mech how about rax->CC-> rax rax -> fac -> speed -> tanks and third (meh i'll try it out and see if something like this can be done)
hmmmm sounds quite gas heavy
speed reapers seem to let you impose yourself on the map giving mech play the mobility it needs (vulture replacement anyone).
you don't need to constantly make reapers throughout the game just replenish your raiding force. This also means you can have 4 rax worth of marine production to help stop any pesky air transition that toss love to do against a meching player.
Mass reaper all game is obviously stupid but just because you have the producrion facilitys does not mean you need to use them all the time. Back in BW days it wasn't uncommon to see a Terran player make MM against Zerg and then transition into straight up Mech.
I faced that at plat level, the guy was like rank 4(1500) plat player, but I mostly stuck on one base and as soon as I've seen a lot of reaper I went DT knowing he wouldn't have detection that fast and harrassed him quite a bit and just ended up having more stuff that he he did. Deltra quadrant is quite a bad map to mass reaper tho.
People please stop taking this strategy seriously. Qxc is a pro and he chose a funky strat to use for fun. I believe Tyler used mass sentries in a TLAttack episode once. Do you think that is going to be viable? Sure this strategy can work occasionally when you are far better than your opponent. But you'll probably be better off building any unit other than a reaper from your barracks 99% of the time.
On November 16 2010 10:54 frantic.cactus wrote: This is some cool early game action. Possibly making mech play more viable?
I'm just lazily theory crafting because i'm at work and have nothing better to do, but:
you could get ahead in expansions you need a factory for the speed upgrade you need a factory for mech how about rax->CC-> rax rax -> fac -> speed -> tanks and third (meh i'll try it out and see if something like this can be done)
hmmmm sounds quite gas heavy
speed reapers seem to let you impose yourself on the map giving mech play the mobility it needs (vulture replacement anyone).
you don't need to constantly make reapers throughout the game just replenish your raiding force. This also means you can have 4 rax worth of marine production to help stop any pesky air transition that toss love to do against a meching player.
Mass reaper all game is obviously stupid but just because you have the producrion facilitys does not mean you need to use them all the time. Back in BW days it wasn't uncommon to see a Terran player make MM against Zerg and then transition into straight up Mech.
This could just be an effective opening.
you won't have enough reapers to do anything if you go 1 rax expand. MM will be the better choice for this style.
the point is to outnumber the enemy (3-4 rax) and expand as soon as you can afford it with constant reaper/scv/depot-production.
On November 16 2010 10:54 frantic.cactus wrote: This is some cool early game action. Possibly making mech play more viable?
I'm just lazily theory crafting because i'm at work and have nothing better to do, but:
you could get ahead in expansions you need a factory for the speed upgrade you need a factory for mech how about rax->CC-> rax rax -> fac -> speed -> tanks and third (meh i'll try it out and see if something like this can be done)
hmmmm sounds quite gas heavy
speed reapers seem to let you impose yourself on the map giving mech play the mobility it needs (vulture replacement anyone).
you don't need to constantly make reapers throughout the game just replenish your raiding force. This also means you can have 4 rax worth of marine production to help stop any pesky air transition that toss love to do against a meching player.
Mass reaper all game is obviously stupid but just because you have the producrion facilitys does not mean you need to use them all the time. Back in BW days it wasn't uncommon to see a Terran player make MM against Zerg and then transition into straight up Mech.
This could just be an effective opening.
you won't have enough reapers to do anything if you go 1 rax expand. MM will be the better choice for this style.
the point is to outnumber the enemy (3-4 rax) and expand as soon as you can afford it with constant reaper/scv/depot-production.
Aw but I love FEing so much ^__^
Well then i'll try it the way you said. 4 rax -> expand. Why fix what aint broke right?
I just really like expanding....
But what about after the expo goes down. You're into the midgame, Hopefully with an advantage and a deadly/mobile counter attack force. Stifle expand attempts and proxy tech with reapers while expanding yourself and massing tanks etc etc etc. (good for scouting tech switches too) (I don't mean to derail the thread just to look at the reapers viability in a game long plan)
On November 16 2010 10:50 inFeZa wrote: Hi guys, PoisoN here, i was playing QXC in this match and let me tell you some things about it.
First off - It was a handicap, he was only using specialized units like reaper ghost
Second off - it worked damn well for the map. as there was 2 huge gaps to my base which was forcing me to split my army and as day9 anayzised things like stalkers can easily get picked off, thats why i stuck with gateway units and blink, giving me mobility to move between the harass.
Thirdly - Transitioning would be different, but it forces me to be on low count of bases while you have free minerals to expand.
After playing this game i feel that i've learned the most from this game, how such a good offense, even if it is weak can pin you down to your base, especially on such a large map and with good mobile units.
It's easier to transition into bio-heavy play since you already have 4 rax but mech can be viable too. Maybe some sort of marine/thor/banshee play. (making use of the 4 techlabs)
The thing with the reapers is that it's hard to keep them efficient all game long. Either you commit to them or you let them melt away slowly after your goal has been accomplished (e.g. expansion saturated and tech buildings ready) ^^
No strategy should ever work twice against someone. If you know a strategy is coming and can't stop it then either it's an OP strategy or the other player is just better than you are.
Mass reapers is a decent early game strategy because it has the potential to do what an early game strategy should do--get you into mid-game with an advantage.
No strategy should ever work twice against someone. If you know a strategy is coming and can't stop it then either it's an OP strategy or the other player is just better than you are.
Mass reapers is a decent early game strategy because it has the potential to do what an early game strategy should do--get you into mid-game with an advantage.
AND has the potential to still be matchup changing in the mid/late game.
Terran has problems with late game mobility against toss and to make up for this go MMM in the late game when storms and colissi are common.
What if you had the threat of aggression from reapers and the hard hitting (defensive) power of a mech army w/ ghost support? Why is it you need a factory for reaper speed? could there be a synergy =D.
Now bear in mind I could be talking total horseshit in here and derailing the thread horribly but as I was watching those reapers bounce around the main of Poison they reminded me alot of what Mutas are in TvZ....
No strategy should ever work twice against someone. If you know a strategy is coming and can't stop it then either it's an OP strategy or the other player is just better than you are.
Mass reapers is a decent early game strategy because it has the potential to do what an early game strategy should do--get you into mid-game with an advantage.
Okay, didn't mean to throw out a loaded question. I should predicate that with... given knowing mass reaper is coming (IE you scout it), and having played had experience from this game - do you think it would be nearly as effective.
I still think a fast Robo would shut this down. You can get a whole ton of production up and expos up but it takes time to accumulate a real army.
On November 16 2010 11:32 Antisocialmunky wrote: Do you think you it would work twice against you?
Possibly, because it could be compared to a muta strat, just it happens much earlier, i would have expanded again and gone for a higher tech maybe even rays or something to harrass myself, but the fact that qxc was playing didnt help
Okay, didn't mean to throw out a loaded question. I should predicate that with... given knowing mass reaper is coming (IE you scout it), and having played had experience from this game - do you think it would be nearly as effective.
I still think a fast Robo would shut this down. You can get a whole ton of production up and expos up but it takes time to accumulate a real army.
Maybe, maybe not. Theorycrafting only goes so far. Maybe the time you spend getting a robo is enough of a timing window for the Reapers to pay for themselves then again maybe it counters them beautifully. Best way to find out is to grab a Terran buddy and ask him to just mass reaper you over and over (or vice versa if you play Terran like your icon suggests). Then you can comeback to the forum and tell the rest of us "Hey I just played 20 games against this strategy--here's what worked, here's what didn't, and here's what we can learn from it."
I can't find the video, does anyone have the link to the video? Was it taken down? I have always theory crafted about mass Reapers, this is something I really want to see.
Okay, didn't mean to throw out a loaded question. I should predicate that with... given knowing mass reaper is coming (IE you scout it), and having played had experience from this game - do you think it would be nearly as effective.
I still think a fast Robo would shut this down. You can get a whole ton of production up and expos up but it takes time to accumulate a real army.
Maybe, maybe not. Theorycrafting only goes so far. Maybe the time you spend getting a robo is enough of a timing window for the Reapers to pay for themselves then again maybe it counters them beautifully. Best way to find out is to grab a Terran buddy and ask him to just mass reaper you over and over (or vice versa if you play Terran like your icon suggests). Then you can comeback to the forum and tell the rest of us "Hey I just played 20 games against this strategy--here's what worked, here's what didn't, and here's what we can learn from it."
Well I did play 20+ games with Marine/Marauder/Reaper all mixed together and that gets shut down with a robo so given that the only thing you make are reapers... I would think this is a bigger issue.
On November 16 2010 13:48 undyinglight wrote: I can't find the video, does anyone have the link to the video? Was it taken down? I have always theory crafted about mass Reapers, this is something I really want to see.
Well I did play 20+ games with Marine/Marauder/Reaper all mixed together and that gets shut down with a robo so given that the only thing you make are reapers... I would think this is a bigger issue.
Then snipe the robo. 5-6 reapers kill a robo really, stupidly fast. Depending on how fast your opponent goes for the robo and where he puts it, he may not have enough troops to pick off the reapers before they can take it out. Even if you trade reapers for the robo at cost, you're still putting yourself way ahead since you have enough money for an expo, the production backbone for heavy marauder play, and meanwhile he's a long way away from Colossus.
No strategy should ever work twice against someone. If you know a strategy is coming and can't stop it then either it's an OP strategy or the other player is just better than you are.
Mass reapers is a decent early game strategy because it has the potential to do what an early game strategy should do--get you into mid-game with an advantage.
Okay, didn't mean to throw out a loaded question. I should predicate that with... given knowing mass reaper is coming (IE you scout it), and having played had experience from this game - do you think it would be nearly as effective.
I still think a fast Robo would shut this down. You can get a whole ton of production up and expos up but it takes time to accumulate a real army.
Fast robo would have not helped at all in the early game, i would have been run over by a bunch of reapers and i needed to get lots of stalkers out asap so i can be safe. It may have helped with a transitioning to colossi later in the game to deal with the possible mmm that may come out
It's a TvP on metalopolis. He goes early reapers to scout and harass, then transitions into ghost/marine/marauder, and later tanks and medivacs. His opponent techs to templar. In the late game, with each player on 4 bases, QXC switches production back to mass reaper. His reasoning is as follows:
if the opponent attacks his gold base, it is backed by tanks, a PF and the bulk of his army. Even if it goes down, his reapers can take out 2+ bases themselves because they do so much damage to buildings and workers. It was pretty cool to see this use of late game mass reaper.
On November 16 2010 13:48 undyinglight wrote: I can't find the video, does anyone have the link to the video? Was it taken down? I have always theory crafted about mass Reapers, this is something I really want to see.
On November 16 2010 08:31 Lobber wrote: At around 12+ reapers 4 warped in stalkers to the mineral line won't save you, at least 1 will die before it warps in all the way and 12 reapers can easily pick off 3 stalkers, probes are then easy pickings.
Its even easier to blow up the pylon, no units, 25% resources lost and (not sure about this) gates on cooldown?
Well I did play 20+ games with Marine/Marauder/Reaper all mixed together and that gets shut down with a robo so given that the only thing you make are reapers... I would think this is a bigger issue.
Then snipe the robo. 5-6 reapers kill a robo really, stupidly fast. Depending on how fast your opponent goes for the robo and where he puts it, he may not have enough troops to pick off the reapers before they can take it out. Even if you trade reapers for the robo at cost, you're still putting yourself way ahead since you have enough money for an expo, the production backbone for heavy marauder play, and meanwhile he's a long way away from Colossus.
It is not that easy, you need to have great control. Someone tried to do this at the TL Battledex on DQ (you can hop up the back) and failed miserably. The thing is you cannot 'trade' reapers or you lose because they take a ridiculous time to build even off 4/5 rax. Its just like the only 5 rax reaper vs Zerg except without speed.
No strategy should ever work twice against someone. If you know a strategy is coming and can't stop it then either it's an OP strategy or the other player is just better than you are.
Mass reapers is a decent early game strategy because it has the potential to do what an early game strategy should do--get you into mid-game with an advantage.
Okay, didn't mean to throw out a loaded question. I should predicate that with... given knowing mass reaper is coming (IE you scout it), and having played had experience from this game - do you think it would be nearly as effective.
I still think a fast Robo would shut this down. You can get a whole ton of production up and expos up but it takes time to accumulate a real army.
Fast robo would have not helped at all in the early game, i would have been run over by a bunch of reapers and i needed to get lots of stalkers out asap so i can be safe. It may have helped with a transitioning to colossi later in the game to deal with the possible mmm that may come out
Okay, that's reasonable though it takes mass reaper a little time to ramp up to the level where its extremely dangerous.
i honestly encountered this build a while ago, didnt know that this was part of the daily @.@ i was shocked when an army of reapers streamed right past my natural and went right in my base.luckily, i saw the reapers while i was pushing so i was able to position a tank near my mineral line for defense. still cant get over people copying builds they think they can do if a pro does it. especially if its shown on the daily, stream, or just plain replays =.=
On November 16 2010 23:13 Toothless`xelrae wrote: still cant get over people copying builds they think they can do if a pro does it. especially if its shown on the daily, stream, or just plain replays =.=
It's called fun. I personally don't care if I lose ladder games so sometimes I do wacky stuff in them. I love to try out of the box builds that I see in VODs... Don't tell me you have never tried doing something stupid like BC's Rush, Ultra Rush, or Mothership rush just to put a little more fun into the game? If you have not you really should... It's fun to play so risky sometimes :-)
On November 16 2010 11:07 Enervate wrote: People please stop taking this strategy seriously. Qxc is a pro and he chose a funky strat to use for fun. I believe Tyler used mass sentries in a TLAttack episode once. Do you think that is going to be viable? Sure this strategy can work occasionally when you are far better than your opponent. But you'll probably be better off building any unit other than a reaper from your barracks 99% of the time.
It is a serious opening. Making them all game, i agree is not optimal, but if you have qxc like micro you could still pull it off if you got a big enough advantage from reapers at that point.
Why do ppl assume that QXC was purposely giving himself a handicap/was playing just for fun/his opponent sucked? He showed that a heavy investment in reapers early game CAN yield some good advantages in terms of map control and can pin the opponent if the map is one that allows it, which is an aspect of the game that some players value more than others.
Is there a way that he could have achieved the same map control so early in the game in some cheaper/faster/more stable way? If noone can think of one than there's no reason to say the build was suboptimal!
This thread has caused me to use and experiment with reapers alot.
My current start build is: Rax(tech) - CC - Rax(tech) - Factory(refine) - Rax(refine)
I usually build marines out of one rax and reapers in another. Factory for that speed. Switch off your factory's refine for that 3rd barracks then land your factory and make a tech lab. Then after your 3rd rax is built, I mainly stop reaper production and pump marauds with the 2 techs and pump marines on that refine. (Of coarse it all depends what you scout) While harassing, I would scout even more of the enemy base and may go tanks or tech to stargate. A pretty smooth transition if you ask me.
And remember, before you say reapers are useless, take a damn good look at the map and scout. If you have a map with a long back door than go for it. Snipe buildings or go for the tasty mineral line. And I got to thinking, why are cloaked banshees still popular for harass? Isn't it just cheaper and quicker to get a bunch of reapers? You need several stalkers/roaches to stop this harass, while banshees need about 1-2 static anti-air cannons.
I usually get a small group of 5-8 reapers and drop a scan or send a marine before hopping in. (You want to hide those reapers at all times. Rally them to an expansion near the enemy base. Nobody really uses them nowadays so they usually don't expect it) As long as you know where their army ball is, you can safely hop in for 10 secs and hop back out doing enough damage to cause them to lag behind in the game. It'll also agitate them to attack since you probably wreck their econ, they need to counter you back to catch up. But them you're prepared for that right? You should have your tanks up by that point and possibly an expansion in your natural with a PF.
......Oh just realized the title of this topic was "Mass Reapers". Sorry if I went off topic.
Well, then I'd say no to mass reapers. They are way too weak for a head on attack. Or unless you can juggle them around before the larger army ball could get to your base....
Why not build a planetary fortress in your natural instead of an orbital? Even with the decreased economy you would still have massive map control, and any sort of base trade with toss tier 1-2 units would be their loss. plus you get that fast +1 upgrade for infantry, which you will probably be switching to later anyways.
I always go Planetary Fortress if my natural is in the front of my base. Those "backyard" naturals I feel are protected enough except for drops which will need a small army to defend against.
But yes if I have a front natural, I'll always go PF. It is so much easier to fast expand and once and any early army is basically demolished once in range. Just make sure to get most of your SCVs to repair it once under attack.
've beaten 1600 players with all sorts of whacky builds, because I played better than they did. That doesn't mean that those builds are any good. I would expect to see replays from the OP before placing any faith in a strategy that is awful both on paper and in my personal experience.
Everyone talking about "penning P up in his base" is forgetting that at some point he'll have enough stalkers, probably off of one base, that he can just walk over and kill you, and killing all his probes won't be much consolation when your base is a smoking crater.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-166172.jpg)
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You should have your tanks up by that point and possibly an expansion in your natural with a PF.
