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On October 27 2010 12:55 azn_dude1 wrote:
For queens, I personally hotkey them all to 5 and hold shift, press v, and left click on all the hatcheries on the minimap (you can inject larvae using the minimap). You need good mouse precision and it's pretty fast once you get the hang of it.
As long as you have a queen next to each hatchery, no you don't need good mouse precision.
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A suggestion based on the simple summary post earlier:
I'm a complete noob zerg. I switched from terran pre-patch, I was starting to be decent (gold) and am now bronze but havin shittons more fun :-) Anyways I had been looking for something akin to day9's "big 3" for terran and protoss as that gave me something solid to focus on. This guide (plus day 9) has been AWESOMELY helpful. A kind-of translation ive been using after reading your guide is the little mental heartbeat IUS:
Inject -> Units -> Supply/Saturation
I'm starting to actually have an OK (50/50) ratio as zerg up from basically none since switching thanks to just mentally always cycling through those 3, allowing me to mess around more in confidence of actually having a rythm. Not really that major, but it helps me to have 3 simple words to focus on so I figured Id pass it on.
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Ah, the dreaded double post.
Honestly, for Zerg, I would say Supply/Saturation>Units. I can only assume when you say units you mean fighting units, I.E: your swarm of kickass+10.
So, at least in my opinion, it should be:
Inject->Supply/Saturation->Units
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I'm a top level platinum zerg player trying to get into diamond
This guide helps me understand the basic concepts I already knew, but compiles it in a very logical way which makes macro a lot easier to understand
what helped me the most was putting all hatches on 4, and then each individual hatch+queen on 5,6,7,8 etc
I generally am very good about spawning larva, but i always used to click to do it because having all my queens on 4 and all hatches on 5 just wasn't efficient
I wish i would have read this guide when i was starting up :D
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This is a great guide for beginner zergs, and it proposes a good system for linking actions together as to not forget any one aspect.
However, I have to say the guide is QUITE poorly written.
It seems like this would be a lot more useful to beginners if you trimmed the fat a little bit. 40% of your paragraphs contain a run-on sentence (or just a needlessly long fluffed up sentence), and a lot of those run-on sentences are caused by you just stuffing in extra fluff words and phrases that really serve no purpose.
Here's one example: "What this guide attempts to provide is a coherent and progressive system on developing an underlying cognitive structure at integrating each of the important elements of macro efficiency into a unified and communicating system of thought triggers and critical thinking."
This sentence (like almost every one) is unnecessarily long, and could easily be reduced. Watch this: "This guide attempts to provide a structure for linking thought triggers and critical thinking". Bam, 1/3 the length and it gets exactly the same point across.
The post is chock-full of things just like that, and while I'm no English major, it just seems to me that your target audience (beginner Zerg) are going to be extremely discouraged from reading this, as you make it almost triple the length that it actually needs to be.
This isn't going to be graded, you don't have to fluff it up with all the unnecessary synonyms and adjectives! Someone who comes here at bronze level is just starting to poke and prod his way into actually "researching" the game, and if they see this as the typical structure for informational guides, they will immediately turn away.
Great guide otherwise! Just cut out the fat!
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I'd like to reiterate Kweefspray's note about the writing, only less tactfully. It's diction like this that gives the verbose a bad name.
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On October 29 2010 00:07 KweefSpray wrote:
This is a great guide for beginner zergs, and it proposes a good system for linking actions together as to not forget any one aspect.
However, I have to say the guide is QUITE poorly written.
It seems like this would be a lot more useful to beginners if you trimmed the fat a little bit. 40% of your paragraphs contain a run-on sentence (or just a needlessly long fluffed up sentence), and a lot of those run-on sentences are caused by you just stuffing in extra fluff words and phrases that really serve no purpose.
Here's one example: "What this guide attempts to provide is a coherent and progressive system on developing an underlying cognitive structure at integrating each of the important elements of macro efficiency into a unified and communicating system of thought triggers and critical thinking."
This sentence (like almost every one) is unnecessarily long, and could easily be reduced. Watch this: "This guide attempts to provide a structure for linking thought triggers and critical thinking". Bam, 1/3 the length and it gets exactly the same point across.
The post is chock-full of things just like that, and while I'm no English major, it just seems to me that your target audience (beginner Zerg) are going to be extremely discouraged from reading this, as you make it almost triple the length that it actually needs to be.
This isn't going to be graded, you don't have to fluff it up with all the unnecessary synonyms and adjectives! Someone who comes here at bronze level is just starting to poke and prod his way into actually "researching" the game, and if they see this as the typical structure for informational guides, they will immediately turn away.
Great guide otherwise! Just cut out the fat!
Haha i was wondering how long it would take for someone to say something like this. Its an issue I've had for quite a long while. I write what i'm thinking and i think the way i do because its just the way i think, I've been moaned at by quite a few people in the past for saying things in overly complicated ways, sometimes missing that there is a much easier way of saying things. Its an inherent problem with the way my mind words thing, to myself.
The problem here is your condensed sentence doesn't provide (at least to me) the full picture. It is this point why i most probably write things in long ways, as the added prose describes the point in more detail, in as much detail as my mind is thinking about the point in question i am trying to bring across, and at least to me, describing things in explicit detail, in guides, seems to be a priority. I have the fear when writing sets of instructions, or things explaining things in general that i will be being to vague about explaining a point and the person won't 'get' what it is im trying to say, or be confused as to what i am referring to. Which is why i add allot of the time an explaining sentence after the prior sentence. ( e.g. stick to making rallies with your base rally point. The one you make with Control group 4 selected).
Yes there may be an inherent problem as allot of the, as you put, 'fluffed' content (although i personally wouldn't use that term as that implies a deliberate intent) may be bulking up the length of the guide overall and putting people off from reading it. What you are asking me to do to address this issue is essentially *cough* re-write the whole thing *cough*, and in a way not natural to me, which if done, will more than likely turn out awkward and strangely 'chopped up' at best.
This is down then i suppose to the opinion of the majority of people reading/using the guide. If it comes to a point where people are turning away from the guide because the wording is putting them off too much, then i will have to try to re-write it in a more condensed fashion. hmmm
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Redundant adj.: able to be omitted without loss of meaning or function.
A frighteningly small part of the para-sentence in question: "...a coherent and progressive system on developing an underlying cognitive structure..."
This system you've got in your head is "coherent" and "progressive." So without these critical, specific words, we wouldn't be unable to determine that this system of yours is well, a system, and therefore is cohesive. I can't imagine why someone would care to describe an incoherent system. This system is also progressive. Oh so, you follow it over a course of time, and one part of the system leads to another? That's great, because without that word, I'd have thought you might have come up with a plan that maybe unfolds backwards in time, or through a few new dimensions or something. But thanks to 'progressive,' I know that this system of yours PROGRESSES from one step to the next. I'd have been totally lost if you just called your system a system.
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hahah, well... He definitely put it better than I could. The words aren't actually improving your description or detail, they are just mostly redundant / self-explanatory.
You're statement where you say "whew", and your comment stating "I was wondering how long it would take for someone to say something like this" implies that you already understand that your writing style is ineffective to the reader.
I know it's hard to change the way YOU think it should read, but you need to keep in mind your target demographic. This is an informational guide; it's not a short story. it needs to be extremely succinct and to the point.
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Thanks for this guide. I think some sort of functional amendment to the guide would be nice, you don't really go too much into detail on the practical of getting around efficiently and doing macro. I think were I struggle the most is the hotkey side of things. I tend to have my hatchery at 6 and I have been experimenting with queens at 5 now, but my speed has decreased as I'm getting used to that change. I usually group all my hatcheries in one hotkey unless there is an outlying hatch somewhere where I don't have map control between it and my main rally point.
Zerg macro seems particularly micro-intensive compared to terran and protoss. What I have a hard time with is when you have multiple bases and you have to go back and spit larva on every one, make sure your saturation is good, make units and make sure you don't supply block yourself. You have a different wp for workers on each base and If I'm feeling lazy instead of maynarding I'll set my worker waypoint to a new hatch and saturate it that way. (only when more than 2 bases)
I get a feeling that I 1) spend too much time spitting larva, 2) supply block myself too often, 3) run into situations where I have not enough larva past 3 bases from slacking in spitting and sometimes need an in base hatch.
Do you have any tips for efficient use of the hotkeys to remedy these problems?
If I have the hatches on different hotkeys I can tap the hotkey twice and go to them right away to spit, but then making units from all of them is a lot harder....of course hotkey on all hatches makes it harder to spit since double tapping the hotkey only brings you to the first hatch, but easier to make units.
Interested to hear what you all think!
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On October 29 2010 02:40 Shucklak wrote:
Redundant adj.: able to be omitted without loss of meaning or function.
A frighteningly small part of the para-sentence in question: "...a coherent and progressive system on developing an underlying cognitive structure..."
This system you've got in your head is "coherent" and "progressive." So without these critical, specific words, we wouldn't be unable to determine that this system of yours is well, a system, and therefore is cohesive. I can't imagine why someone would care to describe an incoherent system. This system is also progressive. Oh so, you follow it over a course of time, and one part of the system leads to another? That's great, because without that word, I'd have thought you might have come up with a plan that maybe unfolds backwards in time, or through a few new dimensions or something. But thanks to 'progressive,' I know that this system of yours PROGRESSES from one step to the next. I'd have been totally lost if you just called your system a system.
I don't see why you have to be so aggressive with your point. It took a long time and allot of effort for me to write and it was not originally intended as a guide but a response to someone asking for help which grew over time and turned into what it is. It is also the first guide i have ever written to anywhere near this much of a degree. Keep That in mind when you respond with your opinions.
Making your point is one thing but offending me by explaining your point in such a brutish and offensive manner isn't adding anything constructive to anything really is it. I feel less inclined to take the time and effort to revise it when you verbally beat on me like that.
It has turned into something much bigger than what i had ever expected or intended, I have not been part of this community for long at all, and seriously did not expect 9400+ views in 3 days. Of course the guide would not cater for the grammatical scrutiny of everyone in such a wide audience, so i apologize for not catering for this possibility when writing it. I'm obviously going to have to re-write the whole thing using this version as a template, and make a much much better, clearer and finished product the second time round. This will take time, please don't expect anything over night. As the first time i winged it at best, writing as i thought and going back to restructure stuff into a better order, not intending on it turning into what it seems to have become, a naive error of mine as i'm not familiar with how active this community is and how readily a thread with a name like this would be snapped up by the attention of so many here.
But please in future, if you have any qualms about the work of others, be amicable about expressing your views.
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Using the all hatches on 4 and all queens on 0, using minimap to inject, I feel it's quite effective (though a bit hard getting used to, I get supply blocked constantly and build too many of some units since I simply press 4 and spam what I need).
I have some questions though:
* How do you sync hatcheries? Should I simply ignore injecting in a hatch if another hatch is halfway done so that I can inject them all at once?
* Should I only build units after injected larva releases or is it good to build of the hatches 3 larva inbetween? Reason I'm asking is because I obviously realize that building inbetween is superior since you get units faster, but I'm wondering if the benefit from syncing and timing the unit creation is helpful? I'm thinking that if one gets used to always building a huge batch of units with each injection cycle, one can time expansions, tech etc more easily, and do techswitch etc with more efficiency.
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Thank you OP for this fantastic guide!
I play Zerg, and I know my macro is my weakness, and reading your guide has helped me realize how the rest of my play suffers from it.
When I play, my mind is mostly focused on what to build next, where to micro my forces, where to scout, what to look for, what units I need in case the enemy pushes (I often find myself supply blocked when he does). So I really need a more structured way of thinking about my macro.
If I can train my brain to instinctively remember to always check my supply and morph additional overlords right after injecting larvae, I only need to practice to get my injections on time =)
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Hey just wanted to reiterate my thanks and appreciation for putting together something like this after seeing some of the writing criticisms. I definately agree with the people saying it should be condensed, or even just an extra very simple extra section focused on pulling all the information together could be added. However, as someone who thinks the way you write (who frequently gets told while talking to slow down) I LOVED having a huge wall of text to sit down too :-) so thanks again. If you want help editing, I am an English minor with a lot of free time. My forum posts tend to be pretty badly written due to me writing them while half asleep but I'll happily help "concisify" if you want the help.
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On October 29 2010 11:53 twstdletz wrote:
Hey just wanted to reiterate my thanks and appreciation for putting together something like this after seeing some of the writing criticisms. I definately agree with the people saying it should be condensed, or even just an extra very simple extra section focused on pulling all the information together could be added. However, as someone who thinks the way you write (who frequently gets told while talking to slow down) I LOVED having a huge wall of text to sit down too :-) so thanks again. If you want help editing, I am an English minor with a lot of free time. My forum posts tend to be pretty badly written due to me writing them while half asleep but I'll happily help "concisify" if you want the help.
That would be amazingly helpful!!  I have allot of Uni work going on at the moment and cut into allot of time writing that guide in the first place. As it began as a simple reply to someone, and i kept going and going and going, to the point my girlfriend was going "wtf... your STILL writing that reply?!?!??" i had been doing work besides browsing TL, which took a dint as this guide seems to have appeared from circumstance which i'm now actually quite keen on turning into something substantial, help squishing it down would be ace!!
I'm feeling gathering a load of stats and whatnot and developing more of a structure for it, going in deeper into a few points and providing examples e.t.c. Basically i'm intending on turning it into an 'actual' comprehensive covers all areas guide for zerg macro and general game mechanics.
Gonna take a bit of effort mind you, but i'm all for it really. Yeh im definitely interested in a bit of help, you can give a hand with as much or as little as you want. Cheers
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Thanks, thanks, thanks ALOT. Don't bother with ppl saying it's difficult to read, I know you're working in a better version and I'm happy for it but as it is the guide already did a lot for me, a gold zerg trying to get better. It's just so much better to play having something to focus on in order to improve. Now I can finnaly try and master the macro system and the hotkeys problem is also solved. Thanks a lot, looking foward for the 2nd version. \o
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This is a great, great post man, something that's missing from these forums too often. I think you've inspired me to come up with a similar Protoss guide; I'd love to use some of your ideas if you don't mind. Particularly the crawl before you walk, walk before you run, and the separation of memory and awareness parts.
You touched on all the important things that new players need to focus on, and nothing they didn't. There's way too much "well I went roaches but he beat me so should I have gone muta-ling" thought processes going around, and everybody assumes they are ready to have that kind of mindset just because they know what they should be doing, but aren't executing it well enough.
Again, great post. I'm going to include some of it in my guide if you don't mind, I'll make sure to link to this guide for sure.
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Condensed version of original post: Finish your beer and focus!
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On November 06 2010 04:47 MeedleyMee wrote:
This is a great, great post man, something that's missing from these forums too often. I think you've inspired me to come up with a similar Protoss guide; I'd love to use some of your ideas if you don't mind. Particularly the crawl before you walk, walk before you run, and the separation of memory and awareness parts.
You touched on all the important things that new players need to focus on, and nothing they didn't. There's way too much "well I went roaches but he beat me so should I have gone muta-ling" thought processes going around, and everybody assumes they are ready to have that kind of mindset just because they know what they should be doing, but aren't executing it well enough.
Again, great post. I'm going to include some of it in my guide if you don't mind, I'll make sure to link to this guide for sure.
go for it man! I'de be happy for you to take any of this you wish and add it into your guide. I am piecing together a mark 2, i know i haven't posted in this thread for a while but tings be happenin in the dark...
I'm happy its helping people out too, as was intended. I know a few people have pointed out that some of the way its written can be difficult to understand, so i'm kinda going through it and thinking about what i'm trying to say and condensing down stuff and clarifying it all out, i've also been thinking aobut adding other bits that have come to mind when playing/watching day 9/streams e.t.c. so tis all good. Its my birthday today!! so i'm not gonna be doing any of the guide today, but i'll be on it again some times very soon.
Peace out!
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EPT
