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Hi,
i wonder if someone has a idea how to deal with 8+ BCs in team games.
In 1v1 its pretty easy since BCs count will never get that high, or at least u won't let your enemy get to 8 BCs. In team games, especially 4v4 and 3v3, its different since you share resources and a terran can be 'pushed' to get out an insane number of BCs with Yamamoto pretty fast.
The obv. choice is to get corrupters and use corruption, but the Yamamoto cannon can cut down your corrupter count pretty fast, even Void rays (the hard counter) will have a hard time dealing with BCs + Yamamoto at a critical number.
Ofc in team games every power unit (e.g. muta) can be mass produced with shared resources, but i wonder if there is a efficient 'hard' counter to 8+ BCs with Yamamoto as Z
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hydras perhaps?
edit; i would like to congratulate everyone who proposed that he uses units that he can't make (e.g.: telling him to get p and t units when title says dealing bc's as z)
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Once you hit the critical number of battlecruisers, it is straight up unstoppable.
I do a fast expand into battlecruisers on twilight fortress (It sounds retarded, but I have used it about 13 times without a single loss at high diamond in random 2v2).
The key is in micro. Void rays get smashed by yamatto, and when fights get that big they won't even get to charge. Pheonix are obviously useless (6 damage against 5 armor) and carriers have the same problem.
Mutalisks get smashed, corruptors are similar to void rays - get raped by yamatto and honestly just melt after the critical number.
Terran has the best counters - vikings can kite but I have not had a problem. Very rarely does a person commit to 100% viking and if they try to kite the dps is so slow you can repair instantly unless they focus, and every time they come in to attack you can yamatto half of them with proper micro.
Ghosts EMP and raven seeker missile can work, but you need to micro well. I haven't had problems with ravens since you can yamato them with insane range before they can land a missile. It really just comes down to the micro.
Ground isn't even worth mentioning since the air will stack up and only fight like 10% of your army at a time.
TL;DR don't expect to beat bcs without a massive economy advantage.
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4v4 = getting basic units
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Rush them before they have a stacked army. Teching is always useless in team games because the higher tier units aren't that much better.
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Feedback is nice with Voidrays in the mix. Try Vortex to cut some BCs out of the picture.
Vikings/Turrets are good and cheap.
Corruptors get bonus vs Massive.
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Corrupters. Make sure you cast corruption. Upgrade to hive and greater spire so you can upgrade your corrupters to brood lords in case they stop massing air units.
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Try neural parasite with corruptors.
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I would say get corruptors and use corruption. Make sure to get in a good position by flanking and FOCUS FIRE. I'm not sure about infestors because np is only 12 seconds, though combined with corruptors should win. You should have 3 corruptors for every BC so yamato cannon shouldn't be unstoppable.
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Corruptors are the best option, you just didn't build enough of them.
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Technically the best counter zerg has to anything air that's dangerous and isn't carrier is mass infestor. If they have nothing but BC, you can FG them to death. It's the same with voidrays and such. With voidrays and their 250 hp it's about 8 FGS to kill them, so if you have as much money as they're willing to spend in BC, you can kill the BC cost effectively and still have a mobile offensive army of infestors to continue fighting with.
But I feel like 8+ BC can be dealt with very well with hydras too, I'm not sure of the range of bcs, but hydra plus infestor should work especially well, and since you can always use NP to drag units away from their army and into a bad position, NP + Fungal are both viable counters.
I mean, once I beat 30+ voidrays thanks to a small force of infestors as a last ditch effort, I don't think zerg has anything else that can even compete with that.
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Corruptors work fine, I'm always amused when people make Yamato cannon out to be this mythical counter-killer. It takes a ton of energy and you can really only use it once because regening the energy required takes a millenia. You either got out-macroed or out-upgraded.
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Take it into unit tester, One battlecruiser with any form of upgrade advantage trashes three corruptors and when you commit to mass BC you will have gotten the upgrades well in advance. Even when both sides have 3/3 the battlecruisers win alone and I have never used mass BC without going all in with repairing scvs.
The difference becomes more pronounced in larger battles because corruptors are more likely to overkill (higher damage and more of them).
Sure its theorycraft, but battlecruisers destroy equivalent value corruptors and if you throw in scvs become hilariously stronger.
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On October 26 2010 12:49 691175002 wrote:
Take it into unit tester, One battlecruiser with any form of upgrade advantage trashes three corruptors and when you commit to mass BC you will have gotten the upgrades well in advance. Even when both sides have 3/3 the battlecruisers win alone and I have never used mass BC without going all in with repairing scvs.
The difference becomes more pronounced in larger battles because corruptors are more likely to overkill (higher damage and more of them).
Sure its theorycraft, but battlecruisers destroy equivalent value corruptors and if you throw in scvs become hilariously stronger.
Sorry but this is just wrong in every possible way.
Not counting yamato Cannon one corrupter even beats one BC all by itself (beeing as good as dead after but who cares about that) thanks to his high base armor, so even if you count yamato in for every single BC (and its kinda unlikely that all of them have that much energy available) they will still be cost efficient. Every further point in flyer carapace will just increase that even more.
This applys to every amount of BCs be it one or two or the so called "critical mass". If he has 20 BCs to yamato your corrupts ... so what? By that time you should have more than enough money to build 50 corrupors (which would still be far lower in supply and cost) the remaining 30 will take care of the BCs easily (unless you outclasses you heavily in upgrades but you really just shouldnt let that happen)
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On October 26 2010 13:09 Icemind wrote:
Sorry but this is just wrong in every possible way.
Not counting yamato Cannon one corrupter even beats one BC all by itself (beeing as good as dead after but who cares about that) thanks to his high base armor, so even if you count yamato in for every single BC (and its kinda unlikely that all of them have that much energy available) they will still be cost efficient. Every further point in flyer carapace will just increase that even more.
This applys to every amount of BCs be it one or two or the so called "critical mass". If he has 20 BCs to yamato your corrupts ... so what? By that time you should have more than enough money to build 50 corrupors (which would still be far lower in supply and cost) the remaining 30 will take care of the BCs easily (unless you outclasses you heavily in upgrades but you really just shouldnt let that happen)
Uhhh. What???
One Corruptor will barely even scratch a BC before it dies. You need at least 3x Corruptors to his BC count to "counter" them, and even then good Yamato makes it a pretty even exchange.
Edit: Just tested it in Unit Tester.
1 BC vs 1 Corruptor (no upgrades): BC wins with 414 HP
1 BC vs 1 Corruptor (level 1 upgrades): BC wins with 406 HP
1 BC vs 1 Corruptor (level 2 upgrades): BC wins with 398 HP
1 BC vs 1 Corruptor (level 3 upgrades): BC wins with 390 HP
1 BC vs 2 Corruptors (no upgrades): BC wins with 142 HP
1 BC vs 2 Corruptor (level 1 upgrades): BC wins with 128 HP
1 BC vs 2 Corruptor (level 2 upgrades): BC wins with 110 HP
1 BC vs 2 Corruptor (level 3 upgrades): BC wins with 90 HP
There are slight variations among the results for 2 Corruptors since sometimes they get an extra shot off. But this doesn't really change the results. The BC always wins against 2 Corruptors. If we add in Corruption, then 2 Corruptors can kill 1 BC when max upgraded and "sometimes" with level 2 upgrades assuming no Yamato cannon is used.
As pertaining to the OP's question, with all abilities in play (which is likely in a team game), you would need 3x the amount of Corruptors as he has BC's to safetly "counter" him. If he's top-notch at using Yamato cannon then you will basically trade armies but its okay for you since Zerg can rebuild much faster than Terran can remake BC's.
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1. get air armor upgrades.
2. BC's are terribly immobile and only good in large groups. Mass turrets at your base while attacking his main with a sizable ground force. Focus on starports and the fusion core.
3. Scout, you should've seen him going for BC's, This probably will give you the opportunity to take extra expos.
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The point is that you should be to get more corrupters then a terran can get BCs. If he is somehow outmacroing you by managing and getting that many BCs when you cant get more corrupters, you've already lost.
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On October 26 2010 13:18 Sevenofnines wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 13:09 Icemind wrote:
Sorry but this is just wrong in every possible way.
Not counting yamato Cannon one corrupter even beats one BC all by itself (beeing as good as dead after but who cares about that) thanks to his high base armor, so even if you count yamato in for every single BC (and its kinda unlikely that all of them have that much energy available) they will still be cost efficient. Every further point in flyer carapace will just increase that even more.
This applys to every amount of BCs be it one or two or the so called "critical mass". If he has 20 BCs to yamato your corrupts ... so what? By that time you should have more than enough money to build 50 corrupors (which would still be far lower in supply and cost) the remaining 30 will take care of the BCs easily (unless you outclasses you heavily in upgrades but you really just shouldnt let that happen) Uhhh. What??? One Corruptor will barely even scratch a BC before it dies. You need at least 3x Corruptors to his BC count to "counter" them, and even then good Yamato makes it a pretty even exchange. Edit: Just tested it in Unit Tester. 1 BC vs 1 Corruptor (no upgrades): BC wins with 414 HP 1 BC vs 1 Corruptor (level 1 upgrades): BC wins with 406 HP 1 BC vs 1 Corruptor (level 2 upgrades): BC wins with 398 HP 1 BC vs 1 Corruptor (level 3 upgrades): BC wins with 390 HP 1 BC vs 2 Corruptors (no upgrades): BC wins with 142 HP 1 BC vs 2 Corruptor (level 1 upgrades): BC wins with 128 HP 1 BC vs 2 Corruptor (level 2 upgrades): BC wins with 110 HP 1 BC vs 2 Corruptor (level 3 upgrades): BC wins with 90 HP There are slight variations among the results for 2 Corruptors since sometimes they get an extra shot off. But this doesn't really change the results. The BC always wins against 2 Corruptors. If we add in Corruption, then 2 Corruptors can kill 1 BC when max upgraded and "sometimes" with level 2 upgrades assuming no Yamato cannon is used. As pertaining to the OP's question, with all abilities in play (which is likely in a team game), you would need 3x the amount of Corruptors as he has BC's to safetly "counter" him. If he's top-notch at using Yamato cannon then you will basically trade armies but its okay for you since Zerg can rebuild much faster than Terran can remake BC's.
Corruption is a pretty easy ability to use vs BCs, I don't think it should've been removed from the equation in the first place, nonetheless thanks for actually doing the leg work as opposed to just spouting falsehoods.
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There isn't that much which really counters a mass of 3/3/3 Battlecruisers. To mass them he needs to be running off an early 2-3 base unharrassed so stop that.
Maybe massed 3/3 carriers with fb upgrade?
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If you can manage the huge gas amounts, infestor and corruptor would seem the most effective choice with neurals. However, since you're talking about team games I doubt that you're fighting BCs in a vacuum. Talking about what works well against what becomes a lot more compicated when you throw resource sharing and teammates' armies into the mix. Since the nerf to ground damage it might make sense to mix hydras and corruptors. Make sure your corruptors are able to spit on the BCs and that the hydras are upgraded.
Not a big fan of team games because of these silly possibilities but that would be my best guess.
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there isnt a good "unit counter" here.
the game is more complex like that
you should be outmacro'ing him by a lot by expanding and preventing him from macroing. you should be able to make waaaay more corruptors than he has BCs. and, even if his BCs win the fight, you should be able to build tons more corruptors to reinforce, he wont be able to build more BCs. 2 player maps are huge, if he's heading out with BCs you should be counterattacking in his base, forcing him to go back with his big slow ass units.
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On October 26 2010 12:49 691175002 wrote:
Take it into unit tester, One battlecruiser with any form of upgrade advantage trashes three corruptors and when you commit to mass BC you will have gotten the upgrades well in advance. Even when both sides have 3/3 the battlecruisers win alone and I have never used mass BC without going all in with repairing scvs.
The difference becomes more pronounced in larger battles because corruptors are more likely to overkill (higher damage and more of them).
Sure its theorycraft, but battlecruisers destroy equivalent value corruptors and if you throw in scvs become hilariously stronger.
This is a bad example. 3 corruptors vs 1 BC is VERY different than say 12 corruptors vs 4 BC's. Even if the BC's get a yamato shot off and are 1 1 upgrades ahead, the corruptors will still win handily with focus fire and using corruption (tested in unit tester). The corruptors get better by the numbers and are the best option for fighting BC's.
With scv's they are good but lings can pick off those easily and if I'm not mistaken BC's will attack priority the corruptors and not the lings.
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On October 26 2010 11:22 megagoten wrote:
hydras perhaps?
edit; i would like to congratulate everyone who proposed that he uses units that he can't make (e.g.: telling him to get p and t units when title says dealing bc's as z)
He also clearly states it's team games so it's not farfetched to assume he could send resources to a teammate.
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We are a all Z 3v3 team, thats why i asked for Z.
I just counted the units of my last mass BC engagement ...
11 BCs vs 27 corrupters + 2 mutas.
BCs were on +2/+1, corrupters & muta on +1/+1.
Corruption was casted, but i almost instantly lost 11 corrupters to yamamoto.
BCs won the fight with 3 BCs left. I rebuilded 9 corrupters but he had 3 new BCs
coming as well ... guess who won the fight.
If u just look at the resources spent ... corrupters lose against BCs
Thx for the FG and NP advice i will try that one. FG to death sounds appealing to me :D.
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Low lvl player warning.
Imo corruptors are terrible against bc even in a direct fight due to yamato
In real game corruptors are even worse imo due to the fact that they are vulnerable to ground fire (marines/tors though probably mainly marines) wich will support the terran army
Also the corruptors only goal would be to counter the bc while unable to do damage against anny of the terran ground units
You can end up with alot of corruptors wich are useless and transition to bl is risky
Best counter imo is mass hydra with upgrade though hydra is not great against ground mech,
with tons of bc,s there shouldnt be to much ground mech though
Hydra outrange bc and bc wont use yamato on them
Having a bc mind controlled is also a bit annoying when playing as terran but thats a counter for wich you need to be good with micro wich i am not:p
are you sure 12 corruptors win vs 4 bc,s with yamato?
basicly thats 8 corruptors vs 4 bc,s (wich i asume dont get repaired ?)
to get all units firing dont a-move to the bc but first move all units in range of the bc then a
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With the battlecruiser getting nerfed against ground units I wonder how hydras would do? I imagine them never getting close enough that everything can fire so they just get owned anyway once the BC reach critical mass.
What I instead would like to propose is mass infested terran. Sneak 8 BC's worth of infestors under the battlecruisers and while burrowed throw up a bajillion infested marines. They would all spawn within firing range and you would get 8 from each infestor. You could even throw down a fungal growth to prevent escaping just to be on the safe side.
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Here's how you deal with mass BC's in team games. You use your considerably earlier access to mutalisks to destroy his eco so that you can have 50+ mutas to his 8 BC's when the time comes. Or you could mass infestor fungal infested marines and Neural parasites.
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Neural parasite + corruptors OWNS mass BCs. Get an armor upgrade on the corruptors and you can wtfpwn the BCs if you spend equal money (ie you have better than 2:1 on him)
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Queens Curruptors and Hydra with infestors for Mind Control. Don't fear the BCS.
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you should be able to have a huge amount of either corruptor or hydras because if the terran goes for BC because this way they will give you access to mass expand
im not even talking about costs or something but usually the T will make BC from 2 starports while you can get corruptors or hydras in large numbers quickly, the advantage of hydras is definitely that yamato guns arent pretty much of a waste
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you won't really beat mass BCs, especially with scvs around to repair. its quite fun to do =P
if you must though, the things i am always wary of with BCS:
-unburrow and hope you can NP faster than i can react (and yamato the other BCs once its under your control)
-mass hydras. and i mean a LOT of them, since BCs do take down hydras pretty well. never engage off creep or with PDD around, if at all possible.
since you're in a team game, some other options:
-corruptor + medivacs; he can't yamato them all
-blink stalkers in
-unlikely, but if you can catch a few in a mothership vortex, and take care of the other half before they come back.
oh, and also. BCs are slow as balls. if you don't have to, don't engage them, just destroy other parts of his base/other bases.
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thx for the ideas guis! lot of new stuff i will try out ... hopefully mass BCs aren't that hard to counter anymore.
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Corrupters are a good counter when you take into consideration they are faster than BC's. You can pick when you want to fight. BC's are also a capital ship which take a longass time to build (admittedly shorter in team games) and are slow as hell. And you can scout BC's and make a ton of corrupters to compensate.
Also you said "look at resources spent." 11 BC's also cost more than 27 corrupters and 2 mutas.
11 BC = 4400/3300
27 Corrupter + 2 mutas = 4250/2900
He also had better upgrades + later tech. And they take forever to make (reemphasizing) while you can get them asap.
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You can also FG + NP the battlecruisers before engaging with corruptors. get a few infestors, throw down 2 FG's to hold them in place, NP a few of them and make them yamato each other. Then corruptors go in.
If he's spread out at all you can also chain FG him and use a hydra ball to kill him. The BC's will have to fight 2 at a time against however many hydras you can concave him with.
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On October 27 2010 02:53 FabledIntegral wrote:
Corrupters are a good counter when you take into consideration they are faster than BC's. You can pick when you want to fight. BC's are also a capital ship which take a longass time to build (admittedly shorter in team games) and are slow as hell. And you can scout BC's and make a ton of corrupters to compensate.
Also you said "look at resources spent." 11 BC's also cost more than 27 corrupters and 2 mutas.
11 BC = 4400/3300
27 Corrupter + 2 mutas = 4250/2900
He also had better upgrades + later tech. And they take forever to make (reemphasizing) while you can get them asap.
Yeah i just tested them again ... corrupters are the best answer to BCs, but u have to catch up in the upgrades. BCs have a very high rate of fire so attack upgrades are really worth their money. Corrupters have to even out BC attack upgrades with their armor upgrades.
With 8+ BCs on the field u roughly need about 2.5 corrupters per BC (Yamamoto was taken into consideration).
Btw. infestors and hydras don't do very well against 8+ BCs.
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I would think a low amount of corruptors, complemented by heavy Hydra/Infestor is the solution.
a) Corruptors can "corrupt" the BCs, which are so few in number that you can imagine this being feasible. This increases the damage they take heavily.
b) You can Fungal Growth them.
c) Hydras are way more useful, generally, and with BCs we aren't worried about footspeed of Hydras really. Though at this point in the game you should have a creep highway.
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On October 27 2010 03:00 iPoLL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 02:53 FabledIntegral wrote:
Corrupters are a good counter when you take into consideration they are faster than BC's. You can pick when you want to fight. BC's are also a capital ship which take a longass time to build (admittedly shorter in team games) and are slow as hell. And you can scout BC's and make a ton of corrupters to compensate.
Also you said "look at resources spent." 11 BC's also cost more than 27 corrupters and 2 mutas.
11 BC = 4400/3300
27 Corrupter + 2 mutas = 4250/2900
He also had better upgrades + later tech. And they take forever to make (reemphasizing) while you can get them asap. Yeah i just tested them again ... corrupters are the best answer to BCs, but u have to catch up in the upgrades. BCs have a very high rate of fire so attack upgrades are really worth their money. Corrupters have to even out BC attack upgrades with their armor upgrades. With 8+ BCs on the field u roughly need about 2.5 corrupters per BC (Yamamoto was taken into consideration). Btw. infestors and hydras don't do very well against 8+ BCs.
Also are you making sure to flank that big mass of BC's? They are really slow, so it would be hard for them to get in a good position.
But hey, I don't play team games much, and from the sound of it sharing resources really messes up the balance.
And yes, even with the ground damage nerf, Hydras are still awful against BC's
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Corruptors seem to be pretty... underwhelming vs BCs, and seeing as the +damage vs massive seems to imply that they were designed to counter BCs, this is surprising. The things they have going for them are their mobility, fast(er) build time, and the ability to morph into brood lords (which is not something to be scoffed at).
Without Yamato cannon, 3 corruptors (which cost 50 more minerals than BCs and the same amount of gas) should be able to take out one BC without ANY losses with Micro and only 1 lost corruptor with attack-move.
BCs = 450 health, 3(+1) armor, 400 minerals, 300 gas,
Corruptors = 200 health 2(+1) armor, 150 minerals, 100 gas (3 corruptors = 450/300)
BCs have a low-damage high speed attack of 6(+1) vs air with an attack cooldown of .225. Vs the corruptors' 2 armor, that's 4 / .224 = 17.85 DPS, taking 11.2 seconds to kill a corruptor.
Corruptors do 20 damage per shot (to massive units) with an attack cooldown of 1.9. Vs the BC's 3 armor, that's 17/1.9 = 11.20 DPS, though if you add corruption it's (20*1.2 - 3) / 1.9 = 11.57 DPS, taking 38.89 seconds to kill a BC.
If you have 3 corruptors and the BC is corrupted, it should take 12.96 seconds to kill the BC, which is only enough time for the BC to kill ONE corruptor. Given corruptor's faster speed, you could easily micro away a low-health corruptor before it dies and kill the BC with no losses.
Obviously, with yamato cannon, things become a bit different. Assuming the Yamato cannon kills off one corruptor before the fight begins, it takes 2 corruptors 19.445 seconds to kill the battlecruiser. With micro this should be doable, but both corruptors would be in the red.
If the terran player has even one or two SCVs repairing, it seems like corruptors suck.
Attack upgrades for corruptors help a little bit, as each one gives +2 damage vs massive, making the armor of the BC a little less problematic.
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Queens.
Queens are superior to hydralisks against air units in almost every way. Especially against battlecruisers and carriers. The reason is that they have a lot more health and have transfusions. Hydralisks will die mighty fast to the battlecruisers and carriers because they no longer have roaches in front of them to take the hits.
Obviously lots of battlecruisers you don't have a choice except for corruptors. Corruptor/Queens is the most cost effective way to beat it.
Keep in mind that you can make corruptors much faster than he can make battlecruisers. So once you've beaten some, you can usually hold onto air control pretty definitively thereafter. Don't be afraid of getting too many corruptors.
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EPT
