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If it helps, im diamond and even though i'm like 70 or something currently, its because i stopped playing for a while and thats what happened. I beat higher number diamond players pretty often like number 1's 2's and 3's, and yes I'm aware this doesn't really mean anything, but just so you know im not bronze.
Sorry if this may appear to be a whine thread, but i really just want your opinions. I'm not saying banshees are OP or anything, i've just been recently having trouble countering them properly.
With low level terrans its not too bad. I usually scout it, get an observer and make some stalkers and kill the banshees. But higher level terran have been kicking my ass. They make a bansheee, i scout it, prepare, and then they kill two or so probes before i get there with my stalkers, then retreat. Then come back with more banshees. I make more stalkers, they retreat. Then they come back with a raven and a viking(all 3 units from the same building) and snipe my observers from far range. Then they start tearing my troops, and killing buildings.
What bugs me is that they are cloaked, highly mobile, and are also really strong. Stronger than stalkers, in fact sometimes i think they counter them. Now ive been told that theyre not too cheap so it makes sense that they would kill a stalker in a fight. I understand that point of view, but that they can also have high mobility and cloak seems like a lot. At least at the moment.
Anyways, i would love some tips on how i could go about handling this problem. I understand that going stargate would solve this issue, since banshees can't hit air, but i feel like this puts me back too much. I mean, i have to make pheonix AND an observer. Not only that but if the terran decides to stop making banshees, those starports of his are still useful. As protoss, sure i could make some voidrays or something, but really anything else like zealots, stalkers, collosi would be much better and it simply feels like a waste. Banshees aren't like dts in that once you have detection they stop being a problem. In a battle banshees fair extremely well. Also suggestions to make a few cannons might work vs small numbers of banshee but when they have a handful, banshees tear up cannons like they were stalkers.
Just to be clear, im not talking about when terran makes one or two to harass and then stops. I'm talking about making banshees from 2 or three starports constantly.
Heres a replay. REPLAY
If you feel like i just played real sloppy let me know. I just need to know if theres a way to counter this that i hadn't thought of, because in my mind and opinion, I SHOULD be able to stop it with stalkers. In my mind, stalkers equal protoss anti air. If i see air, i make stalkers. So since this doesn't really apply im puzzled :/
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Well lots of things wrong (bad BO with huge gas floating, bad macro) but as for the banshees specifically, against mass banshees you have to go phoenix. Phoenix demolish banshees (can't shoot back + phoenix get light bonus against them). Cannons + obs for detection.
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Go stargate and transition into carriers xD
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There are 2 counters to the Banshee build. I have to emphasise that these are soft counters so don't expect to just roll over your opponent.
1) If you open 2-gate robo, you can expand quickly once you scout the Banshee build. Terrans opening Banshee has to prepare against the 4-gate which means playing fairly defensively and thus a late expand. Once you get the economic advantage, any build should do: e.g. Colossus/Stalker or HT.
2) If you want to expand later, you'll absolutely need Phoenix to fight back the Banshee. The trouble is, the Terrans can get Vikings in return, so it'll turn into sort of a mindgame/scout fest. Ideally the Terrans want to get just enough Viking to beat your Phoenix (no more and no less).
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you can 1a over his base while he's building banshees up. Just need to scout for the proper timing. Remember a banshee takes 60 sec to build up, and T doesn't have chronoboost. He's gonna need at least starports with techlab in order to get a decent mass of them. Banshees are also extremely fragile with only 140HP, they'll go down very fast against Stalker army if not supported with PDD. As a T it's extremely dangerous to build your army around banshees.
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Most players on tl.net would consider you to be a bad player and a newbie. You have like 120 apm, which would allow you to compete on a very high level. You are a great example of a hyperactive player, who severely underestimates the impact of small and tiny fragments on the game.
I think with a little bit of coaching, you might double your points in a few weeks and receive a 50%+ win rate.
Points 891 in Diamond
World rank
Diamond-small
#50,592 (47.89% of 105,638, 52nd percentile)
Region rank
Diamond-small
#19,284 (43.50% of 44,329, 56th percentile)
Stats 175 won, 185 lost, ratio of 48.61%
Member Region race ranks
pzea
Protoss
#6,614 (44.07% of 15,008, 56th percentile)
I'll make a list of mistakes I've seen in your play. Then I'll talk about PvT.
- Your first chronoboost was applied before the pylon finished.
- First and second chronoboost overlapped.
- Your use of chronoboost wasn't efficient throughout the whole game. Early on you want to push your probe production with it. Don't forget to cast it, once you reach 25 energy and have excess supply.
- Your build order was bad. You had built 2 gas before the core. You became supply-locked at 18.
- You became supply-locked at 23.
- You didn't saturate your minerals. 20 workers on the minerals is probably the minimum in the long term. http://www.broodlings.com/worker-saturation.php
- You build gas while your eco was still down.
- You encountered banshees, but your observers were flying around in the Walachei. Keep one or two in your base.
- Your opening was very risky. One gate robo expand without knowing what your enemy did.
- Once cloaked banshees are out, protect your ecoline!
- What was that drop supposed to do?
- Don't hesitate researching blink if you build a twilight council.
- He was able to snipe your observers, because you exposed them.
- If he overcommits to banshees, feel free to add a stargate.
- You didn't properly scout his main entrance. He could have sneaked in a ground attack force.
You lost because of inefficent play, bad strategical and tactical decision making which caused severe losses in your eco. Pure banshees without support are counterable. The real threat from banshees stems from the ambiguity they introduce into the Terran's play. You never know if he'll add ravens, research cloak, commit to other support units.
In future, don't make this mistakes and commit to an opening. There are 1 gate core expand builds, 2 gate stargate, 3 gate robo and so forth. Phoenixes are not that bad. You can keep two of them alive the whole game and harass him. They represent a present threat to any Terran.
I'd also suggest to watch day9tv.
In the long term not only phoenixes, but also blinking stalkers or stalkers/high templars counter banshees.
I'd like to see your development in the game. You have potential.
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Banshee is Light, so Stalker wouldn't do bonus damage to it. While a stalker might be able to beat one Banshee (I'm not sure), a group of Banshee will wreck Stalkers.
Phoenix is definitely your friend here because they make very short work of both Banshees and Ravens. They are also evenly matched against Vikings so you really should have air superiority. I'm actually much more afraid of Marauders and Marines push much more than Banshees.
The goal of the Stargate pumping Phoenix IS to stop Banshee. As long as Banshees are not produced anymore, that 150m/150g is more than worth it, since you force him to fight on the ground. Phoenix are also capable of diabling Tanks, which can be potentially useful as well even in a fight with a complete lack of Air targets (which shouldn't be the case since you can at least hit Medivacs)
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thanks for the help, i will consider making pheonixes more next time i see this. And yeah i guess i was pretty sloppy in this game, sorry for posting it, i was pretty tired. I think i just lost to this 2ce in a row this morning and in a small burst of rage i made this thread. Pheonix does seem like a good idea now that its been suggested. Thank you for the help TL.
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One banshee beats a stalker(banshee actually has almost twice the DPS of a stalker, but has less HP and armor), but the cost performance is not worth it. Unless you are cloaked or has number advantage never engage stalkers with banshees. Stalkers are cheaper and can be produced a few times faster than banshees so they are soft counter to banshees in terms of cost.
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On October 22 2010 20:19 pzea469 wrote:
thanks for the help, i will consider making pheonixes more next time i see this. And yeah i guess i was pretty sloppy in this game, sorry for posting it, i was pretty tired. I think i just lost to this 2ce in a row this morning and in a small burst of rage i made this thread. Pheonix does seem like a good idea now that its been suggested. Thank you for the help TL.
Actually, don't go for mass phoenix, a few of them is fine but save the gas for Immortals/Collosi/HTs stuff that Terran fears alot more. TvP almost every T will make Vikings, but they become basically useless if you don't have Collosi.(they can only hit air unless landed) Landed Vikings are very weak, they are never really meant to fight on the ground. Phoenixes still remain as targets for Vikings.
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If he goes for an early starport (1-1-1 build) and send his first 2 banshees at you, he probably doesn't have much of a ground force. Banshees are expensive and early Banshees for harass comes at a big loss of a main force. I'd plant 1 or 2 photon cannons behind your mineral line, it's enough before he commits to mass banshees. And even if he doesn't go banshees, it could help against a drop which is very popular as terran.
Concentrate on building a good composition of a ground force, and if you see 1 or 2 early banshees, just walk inside his base and win.
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On October 23 2010 00:26 Brynolf wrote:
If he goes for an early starport (1-1-1 build) and send his first 2 banshees at you, he probably doesn't have much of a ground force. Banshees are expensive and early Banshees for harass comes at a big loss of a main force. I'd plant 1 or 2 photon cannons behind your mineral line, it's enough before he commits to mass banshees. And even if he doesn't go banshees, it could help against a drop which is very popular as terran.
Concentrate on building a good composition of a ground force, and if you see 1 or 2 early banshees, just walk inside his base and win.
I would treat this advice with a bit of caution to be honest. I think it is not so much the 1-1-1 build that is giving the toss a headache, it is more the 2 starports, 2 rax build that is difficult to deal with.
have you played versus this strategy recently? because both advices (1-2 photon cannons & walk inside his base) are generally the route to losing this matchup. In fact, it seems whenever I play 2port/2rax versus a toss and he attacks, I win. I think it is just a bit simplistic because the matches do not play out simple once a certain level has been reached. If you want to "walk insde the base" very very early, even on close maps, you need to deal with 1-2 hellions driving in your base the moment you are on your way to T`s base. If T scouts properly, there will be a bunker and 4SCVs to repair. If you delay the attack then it will also most likely fail if the terran has a bunker and, very important, a turret because cloaked banshees will just stop this cold.
I`m just a recreational but ambitious player and would consider this matchup to be my strongest because of the overreaction the P does. Either cannon-up way to much, split forces, panick-attach or actually building more than 1 phoenix. I think most P players just underestimate the power of banshees with +1we and smart attacking. I seem to get into close battles when I can`t hurt him enough in the beginning and if the P player is able to expand and tech to HTs. And then my micro probably isn`t good enough to snipe them.
This strat is also very powerful on maps like Scrap Station or Lost Temple.
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EPT
