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On September 29 2010 04:50 UisTehSux wrote:
Most people don't wall off vs Terran because the wall becomes cannon fodder later in the game with Siege tanks.
I don't wall off vs Protoss because they could be rushing for void rays, and having some depots and your barracks away from your command center in that situation becomes a big problem. That's pretty much it, you could literally lose games with one of those silly Barracks / Supply Depot walls against Protoss.
1550 Diamond, could be 1800+ if it wasn't for school.
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This is one of those threads where it would be nice to see ppl's ranking. Not that ranking is the most important thing in the world or advice/arguments from low ranks dont count but I think it would add an extra valuable dimension.
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On September 29 2010 05:01 Battlescore wrote:
Here's how I build my walls:
10 - Supply depot on side of ramp that has least visibility over incoming attacks
12 - Barracks (not part of the wall, build it a few units away)
13 - Supply depot next to other depot, leaving a 3x3 unit space for bunker
14 - Bunker on the side of the ramp that has the most visibility over incoming attacks
With SCVs ready to repair the bunker, almost nothing gets through this wall. And if you're really worried about sieged tanks firing up your ramp, make one or two of your own.
Against Zerg on 1vs1 maps, I might build the barracks into the wall, then float it off when I'm ready to put down a bunker.
I am soo opposed to the building of the second depo so early if you were sooo intent on walling of use your rax as part of the wall you can throw down a second rax or your factory sooo much sooner if you have that extra 100 in the bank.
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As a Protoss player, I can snipe both your depots and sometimes your Barracks with Stalker/Void Ray openings and Stalker/Observer openings. Once my stalkers have observation to the top of your ramp, they can typically shoot the buildings without being shot back at and force your army down the ramp to defend (Read this as painful and annoying harass instead of useful walloff).
Wall-off is best against races that rely on melee units to run into your base and wreak havoc. Protoss that aren't 2gate zealot pushing generally do not fall into this category.
Tanks sieged below your ramp can cause comparable devastation with scans or aerial observers.
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How do you reinforce? Train units, reinforce your army with groups as opposed to streaming them out one by one. If you leave your base defenseless, a.k.a all-in, and DON'T continue to produce troops, yes you are likely a dead terran. If you're halfway across the map and enemy terran shows up at your gate, well then you have quite a quandry don't you? Good thing you walled in and the troops you have in your base can hop in the bunker, SCVs repairing and hopefully seige tank protecting the ramp.
Having bunkers doesn't mean your forces are going to get overrun.
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Russian Federation100 Posts
On September 29 2010 06:02 Battlescore wrote:
How do you reinforce? Train units, reinforce your army with groups as opposed to streaming them out one by one. If you leave your base defenseless, a.k.a all-in, and DON'T continue to produce troops, yes you are likely a dead terran. If you're halfway across the map and enemy terran shows up at your gate, well then you have quite a quandry don't you? Good thing you walled in and the troops you have in your base can hop in the bunker, SCVs repairing and hopefully seige tank protecting the ramp.
Having bunkers doesn't mean your forces are going to get overrun.
the term reinforcing assumes you are engaged in battle at the enemies base, and are feeding a constant supply of units to.. well, reinforce your force. The chance of any significant counter attack is generally low, if at all.
if you "reinforce in waves" then you are not reinforcing, you are attacking in waves, because if your first wave never dies, well, you just won!
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its not as common against toss however though is fine.
the main reason people dont wall off is simply because longer ranged units such as collossus and siege tanks can take out all of the buildings at the front without any problem, same with collosi.
its also difficult to move out against a similar sized army of range 6 units, such as hydralisks, stalkers or marauders out of a choke.
it also makes you easier to harass because the distance between the choke and your command center are farther away, this is particularly the case with void rays or banshees.
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I dont wall against terran because of Tanks and reapers and Banshees
I dont EARLY wall off against protoss because of void rays. If im teching hard or FE ill wall but with a bunker in the middle not a Rax. And it isnt early. Just around the time a 4 gate push would come.
Walling isnt really to much of a benefit in these match ups because it distorts your concave. They have to push up you dont. INSTA CONCAVE
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If your TvT there is really no gain from walling off unless your doing some cheesy 1 base build and dont want to get scouted but even thats pretty useless because terrans have scans. Against P its also pretty useless because if you just make units and scout him you will know when anythings coming and if you need to throw down a bunker you can before he gets to you.
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I've recently been promoted to Silver League. I have about a 60apm. I'm not a great player. I'm matched up against sub-diamond players. I'm starting to think that for sub-diamond play a wall off in all matchups is good.
I've lost a few times to Protoss and Terran players who run up my ramp with an early timing attack... especially when I'm going for 1/1/1 or other tech build.
I'm going to start walling off against T and P now... especially when doing 1 barracks builds. FWIW, I'll probably do a bunker with two supply depots.
I just don't have the APM to properly defend that attack and maintain my macro. Whereas with the wall off, I keep my opponent off my mineral line for a few more seconds and I can catch my breath.
I find that a lot of responses to stuff like this is to micro better, which is fine... and this board needs to cater to all levels of play. However, we should sometimes be able to say things like "for lower level play, it's okay to wall off in TvP and TvT so you can use less APM to defend" or "in lower levels, it can be a good trade off to build an extra in-base hatchery as Zerg instead of managing Queen/Larva macro if your APM is low".
There are lots of resources in the game. Attention and APM is one of them. It might be better for me to spend my APM building infrastructure and keeping my macro up rather than defending an early timing attack without the help of a wall off.
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On September 29 2010 08:44 ideadude wrote:
I've recently been promoted to Silver League. I have about a 60apm. I'm not a great player. I'm matched up against sub-diamond players. I'm starting to think that for sub-diamond play a wall off in all matchups is good.
I've lost a few times to Protoss and Terran players who run up my ramp with an early timing attack... especially when I'm going for 1/1/1 or other tech build.
I'm going to start walling off against T and P now... especially when doing 1 barracks builds. FWIW, I'll probably do a bunker with two supply depots.
I just don't have the APM to properly defend that attack and maintain my macro. Whereas with the wall off, I keep my opponent off my mineral line for a few more seconds and I can catch my breath.
I find that a lot of responses to stuff like this is to micro better, which is fine... and this board needs to cater to all levels of play. However, we should sometimes be able to say things like "for lower level play, it's okay to wall off in TvP and TvT so you can use less APM to defend" or "in lower levels, it can be a good trade off to build an extra in-base hatchery as Zerg instead of managing Queen/Larva macro if your APM is low".
There are lots of resources in the game. Attention and APM is one of them. It might be better for me to spend my APM building infrastructure and keeping my macro up rather than defending an early timing attack without the help of a wall off.
I completely agree with you...but you should bear in mind that as you get better, and more confident you should probably eventually wean yourself off of the wall-in unless you're against Z.
Ultimately though, if people ask about a particular subject, the best answer is the one that caters to the highest level of play...because it's the correct answer.
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As most have said, I don't wall in vs terran and vs protoss. There are also occasions taht I don't wall in vs zerg (and I do occasionally pay for it... thanks insanely fast speedlings -_-), but you can easily hold a baneling bust off if you have your units positioned correctly on your ramp (2 marauders in front to soak up damage, 2 more a bit farther up the ramp to soak up more damage) so the lings can't get through. However, I NEVER wall vs terran (siege tanks and banshees) and I rarely wall in vs protoss (especially not on air friendly maps like DesO and crap station) because void rays are SO obnoxious to deal with when you have a free thing for them to charge up on in the front of your base. Early zealots are very difficult to deal with (and are definitely something that I need to work on) but a bunker thrown down next to your cc as soon as you see them should hold pretty nicely against them (salvage ftw).
Oh and btws I'm a roughly 1000 level diamond player (give or take).
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I don't like walling off at all. Used to. But now I'm very against it, walling off, for all it's little differences, causes me to have less army, and obviously have that smaller army spread too thin. It just doesn't work for me. Especially on maps with fairly large mains.
Now I just build my base to create chokes into my mineral line and keep everything tight. Then a few marines/marauders at the chokes can hold off any early push a wall would be any use against anyway.
Plus, probably just a personal thing, but I play a lot better without a wall in. 
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no wall is actually better to deny scouting imo
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I personally don't wall-off in TvT because if my opponent does a fast push with one or two tanks and five or six marines, the Depot becomes cannon fodder and I'll get supply blocked, and I'll have to pull SCV's to repair my Rax and fact. Later game it's a pain in the ass to deal with harass, since units ai is weird if I need to move tanks or Thors and sometimes my SCV's will be getting pulverized while my marines and tanks are deciding who should go up the ramp.
TvP I don't wall anymore since the only real threat early is very fast zealot pressure, which I feel I can micro against and would rather chance it for a better economy than wall off for nothing.
TvZ I always wall off because every third game is a god damn baneling bust.
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United States47024 Posts
Building your first depot at the ramp in TvT makes defending reapers drastically harder to defend, because they can harass your depot. If you bring marines to respond, he can just move to your mineral line. Building your first few buildings near your mineral line makes the area you have to cover much smaller.
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Hm, as a 1500 top 200 Terran, I'm probably in the minority at this level, but I still don't feel that the disadvantages of not walling off outweigh the benefits.
TvZ - Should be self explanatory, if I scout blings I double up the wall and autowin.
TvP - Theoretically your wall is vulnerable to being chipped at by Stalkers, but a bunker behind it solves this problem, and I always have a bunker or two since I opt for 1/1/2 against toss. Granted, a bunker is not as effective on maps where the wall in is on flat ground (kulas) due to them not needing to run in range of the bunker to gain vision, and it's one of the reasons I thumbed down that map, apart from the backdoor rocks.
Recently I had a game on Metalopolis where I went 1/1/2 against a toss who 4 gate all in'd and planted pylons at my natural to warp zealots inside my base past my wall. Just barely held it off with 2 bunkers behind my wall + several extra marines and scv repairs while in the meantime my hellion drop fried his probes, so it was gg. I doubt I'd have been able to hold off that push without a wall there at the choke, had he been able to get in and form a concave with those numbers it would have looked very bad for me.
TvT - The most debatable one I guess, I'm kind of on the fence but I still opt for a wall off.
Reapers: It's a valid point that walling in gives reapers another area to poke at and increases the area you have the defend, but in practice I can't remember the last time I lost to reapers. Just scout the proxy and respond appropriately, it's not like walling in is an autoloss to reapers.
Banshees: If my opponent wants to pick at my wall with his first banshee instead of heading to my mineral line, by all means he is welcome to lol. You have a small window of freedom if you caught me offguard before I rustle up a viking or energy for a scan and chances are you'll get chased off before I lose even a single depot.
Siege Tanks: I understand the reasoning behind wall ins being indefensible against siege tanks, but personally the way I play TvT I rarely end up in a brute force tank/viking contest with my opponent, so I have not run into this situation yet. He will need viking support to get vision of that bunker as well, and if I don't have equivalent or greater viking numbers to deny this I'm going to lose anyway, there's nothing to stop him keeping on going past that wall to take my base.
Also have had several games where the opponent T goes for an early push with marines/marauders and/or a hellion or two, I'm normally just constantly producing marines while I tech up to starport so I absolutely need that wall in and a bunker behind to keep myself safe.
Thoughts anyone? Perhaps there is some nuance that I am missing.
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you dont wall off against T cuz they an abuse your wall cause they have range starting unit, so unless you have more units and can push out to stop it they can just abuse it from afar
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It's really not cost effective to try that with marines, one bunker at the top of the ramp stops it dead, and on the subject of ramps, even without a bunker, you're going to need to run up in range of defending marines to gain vision in the first place. Now with dead units no longer granting vision it's going to be harder as well.
Stalkers are troublesome though, if you don't have a bunker since they can regenerate shields and poke your marines to death, on kulas due to there not being a ramp they can poke your wall and you absolutely have to come out to defend it, for that reason I thumbed down kulas ravine.
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On September 29 2010 05:49 yups wrote:
This is one of those threads where it would be nice to see ppl's ranking. Not that ranking is the most important thing in the world or advice/arguments from low ranks dont count but I think it would add an extra valuable dimension.
NO. it wouldnt. that would be like putting a diamond 1500+ filter on a thread.
Me: double clicking on a thread that seems interesting.
System: You must be at least Diamond and have 1500+ points to view or comment on this thread.
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EPT
