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Here's one reason wall off is almost auto-lose in tvt...
(Assuming not a bunker wall off)
Once I scout the wall, I pull back my scv to the guy's nat put down a bunker, put down 2 more barracks, then go 2 tech lab 1 naked (eventually reactor). 2 techlab rax pump marauders and stream straight to the guy's nat. the marauders can kill one depot (supply blocking the guy) while going to the bunker in his nat if he lowers it. (he can only shoot back at the one marauder going up the ramp to provide vision, which you rotate, and put that one in the bunker when its red).
By this time he is blocked, you are not, either go in for the kill (sniping his tech labs first to prevent banshee/siege) or contain, and put your factory in his nat. If your siege line with turrets is right in his natural, its over sooner or later.
The standard response is to fall back and bunker up the inside of his base, which just means he is contained more, just don't lose more guys than he does, and your production should be equal.
He can try to sneak some units into your base, but if you do it right, he will never get a chance to get the starport up and running, because unless he drops more rax he is already dead.
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How I see it:
Wall versus Z = mandatory
Wall versus P = optional. As you get better you may move away from the wall but it's not necessarily bad to wall.
Wall versus T = dangerous. Terran only has ranged units so they can target your wall from the outside and there really isn't anything you can do but let them. That, or suicide run down your ramp to stop them.
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On September 29 2010 06:35 Fork wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 06:02 Battlescore wrote:
How do you reinforce? Train units, reinforce your army with groups as opposed to streaming them out one by one. If you leave your base defenseless, a.k.a all-in, and DON'T continue to produce troops, yes you are likely a dead terran. If you're halfway across the map and enemy terran shows up at your gate, well then you have quite a quandry don't you? Good thing you walled in and the troops you have in your base can hop in the bunker, SCVs repairing and hopefully seige tank protecting the ramp.
Having bunkers doesn't mean your forces are going to get overrun. the term reinforcing assumes you are engaged in battle at the enemies base, and are feeding a constant supply of units to.. well, reinforce your force. The chance of any significant counter attack is generally low, if at all.
I'm guessing you are like gold/platinum max. No offense here at all, just saying that if I see a force I feel like I can't beat head to head I am running by or flanking their base as instead of trying to defend, new units can defend while I counter attack and make him come defend. It's a good way to win a battle you know you will lose, if you know what I mean. 1.1k diamond and counter attack is fairly common. When I do it, I pray you are sending all your shit to my base to attack so I can get 3 free minutes in your base to chill with your SCV's while my new units slow you down to the point of defending yourself
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TvZ - I normally don't like to wall off with depots. I wall off with rax, rax, factory 98% of the time. By the time I'm ready to move out or expand I'd already have siege tanks to deal with banelings, so I just lift the raxes and place them elsewhere.
TvP - I wall off with depot, depot, rax as normal. I find it helps a lot against a proxy 2gate. I can't say I've ever had a problem with stalkers or void rays picking at my wall though.
TvT - I place my 2nd depot at my wall. If I scout a 3rax push I lift my rax, plop it at my wall, and build another depot or bunker at my wall. Then I get a sieged tank behind it enough to shoot at anything that comes up, but far enough back that it can't really be hit. I find this to be the most efficient way of holding off a 3rax.
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I actually still do wall up, and the raeson is because I use builds that get me decent forces early (3 barracks if not 4+) usually. This allows me to move my bio force outside of the wall against T or Z to hit them before they can tank or baneling get me. So why use it at all?
1) I fear cheese
2) I try to get 2 reapers out first to go early game harass and see if i can't get lucky with good micro or a lazy/poor opponent
3) It creates an effective choke point that will rarely hurt you and can only be good for you if your force gets obliterated.
4) deny early scouting
5) It makes players think I'm a turtle when I'm anything but such.
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^^ (I'm a "1000+ diamond")
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if z gets lings then u need the wall to live and vs t and p u get better eco and u dont have to worrie about the probe killing your building scv
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Tvz I always always always always wall off , it's a MUST.
TvT I never never never and never wall off , to a certain extent it's suicidal.
TvP i don't wall off nowdays anymore ever since the patch increased zealots build time, as 2 gate is much easier to deal with now, and other early timing pushes come slightly later and are quite easy to spot , if/when u spot it just drop 2 bunkers and pull some scvs your as good as walled off anyways.
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See I don't get that. I find lings easy to deal with without a wall. ESPECIALLY 6 pool. The only thing that I kinda need a wall to defend any better is some form of early 2 gate zealot push.
Even then, with a wall they can eventually get it down and over run me anyway due to having to pull SCVs to repair, and the bigger the ramp, the more SCVs needed to keep that wall up. So either the wall breaks, or my eco drops below theirs and they can just keep slamming lots/stalkers into the wall until my army falls below theirs due to lack of income and they get through anyway.
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On September 30 2010 10:45 Rodregeus wrote:
See I don't get that. I find lings easy to deal with without a wall. ESPECIALLY 6 pool. The only thing that I kinda need a wall to defend any better is some form of early 2 gate zealot push.
Even then, with a wall they can eventually get it down and over run me anyway due to having to pull SCVs to repair, and the bigger the ramp, the more SCVs needed to keep that wall up. So either the wall breaks, or my eco drops below theirs and they can just keep slamming lots/stalkers into the wall until my army falls below theirs due to lack of income and they get through anyway.
So you don't lose any workers to a 6 pool? WHat you do like a 10 rax build? THen if you dont have a wall when the have speed they can just mass numbers and rush in. 2 lings=50 minerals. and the only way to keep up would to be spamming stim? Yay ur killing ur own units.
And about having to repair the wall. Ur eco is already ahead because they chose to 6 pool meaning they dont have any workers.
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The ONLY upside i see in actually doing a wall off in TvP or TvT is that you deny scouting. Especially against protoss that could be deadly because they dont have a certain awesome ability called SCAN. Other than that, what the others say is right. It's cannon fodder to tanks and stalkers can abuse it all day long with good micro (Kulas mostly).
Something I see a lot of good players do with wall offs is that as soon as they get their core units up enough to defend, they just lift the rax and put it somewhere else, or scout the low grounds to see if any attackers are ahead (for tanks obvi). This gives you a nice opening to go and expand comfortably without a friggin rax in the way.
Just thought I'd bring that up
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wall up is great! allows you to stop enemy from going in! LOL. Add a 2 bunkers near the SD and if breach you still have defence. It allows you to defende with less. Add a siege tank and a norma assault will fail.
Specialy on silver/gold where cheese is a commen thing a wall realy helps. I lack the quickness to defend properly with the wall on less problem to focus on.
ps: putting bunkers behind bunkers is nice
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On September 29 2010 16:07 Riouh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 05:49 yups wrote:
This is one of those threads where it would be nice to see ppl's ranking. Not that ranking is the most important thing in the world or advice/arguments from low ranks dont count but I think it would add an extra valuable dimension. NO. it wouldnt. that would be like putting a diamond 1500+ filter on a thread. Me: double clicking on a thread that seems interesting. System: You must be at least Diamond and have 1500+ points to view or comment on this thread.
I disagree. See spoiler (trying not to sidetrack the thread).
+ Show Spoiler +I find that your complete lack of arguments greatly attenuates your input. And why on earth would the "system" prevent you from viewing a thread?Look at ideadude's (brilliant imo) post. On September 29 2010 08:44 ideadude wrote:
I've recently been promoted to Silver League. I have about a 60apm. I'm not a great player. I'm matched up against sub-diamond players. I'm starting to think that for sub-diamond play a wall off in all matchups is good.
I've lost a few times to Protoss and Terran players who run up my ramp with an early timing attack... especially when I'm going for 1/1/1 or other tech build.
I'm going to start walling off against T and P now... especially when doing 1 barracks builds. FWIW, I'll probably do a bunker with two supply depots.
I just don't have the APM to properly defend that attack and maintain my macro. Whereas with the wall off, I keep my opponent off my mineral line for a few more seconds and I can catch my breath.
I find that a lot of responses to stuff like this is to micro better, which is fine... and this board needs to cater to all levels of play. However, we should sometimes be able to say things like "for lower level play, it's okay to wall off in TvP and TvT so you can use less APM to defend" or "in lower levels, it can be a good trade off to build an extra in-base hatchery as Zerg instead of managing Queen/Larva macro if your APM is low".
There are lots of resources in the game. Attention and APM is one of them. It might be better for me to spend my APM building infrastructure and keeping my macro up rather than defending an early timing attack without the help of a wall off. Not only wouldn't he be prevented from posting but the consideration of APM economy allows me to consider what the right approach for me is. If you want to learn to play guitar you dont start off with the worlds best riff. You ease into it until you got the finger movement down. I think the same can be said for SC. Some strategies are very hard to pull off and thats why its nice to know a little bit about ppls skill level
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On September 30 2010 12:03 Akito wrote:
wall up is great! allows you to stop enemy from going in! LOL. Add a 2 bunkers near the SD and if breach you still have defence. It allows you to defende with less. Add a siege tank and a norma assault will fail.
Have you read the thread? The opponent's units can hit your wall while you will be out of range to fire back....
Walling in TvT is bad unless you think you're going to get rushed with mass marines or something cheesy. You're essentially throwing away the buildings/addons you used to wall off with later on in the game.
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On September 30 2010 11:47 Bonkerz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 10:45 Rodregeus wrote:
See I don't get that. I find lings easy to deal with without a wall. ESPECIALLY 6 pool. The only thing that I kinda need a wall to defend any better is some form of early 2 gate zealot push.
Even then, with a wall they can eventually get it down and over run me anyway due to having to pull SCVs to repair, and the bigger the ramp, the more SCVs needed to keep that wall up. So either the wall breaks, or my eco drops below theirs and they can just keep slamming lots/stalkers into the wall until my army falls below theirs due to lack of income and they get through anyway. So you don't lose any workers to a 6 pool? WHat you do like a 10 rax build? THen if you dont have a wall when the have speed they can just mass numbers and rush in. 2 lings=50 minerals. and the only way to keep up would to be spamming stim? Yay ur killing ur own units. And about having to repair the wall. Ur eco is already ahead because they chose to 6 pool meaning they dont have any workers.
Uhhh, no, depot on 10 refinery before rax. I never said I don't lose ANY workers to 6 pools, but 1-3 tops in almost every case. If they don't back off when I pull SCVs then the SCVs surround them and my 1-2 marines, (maybe 3 if the map is big enough or something slowed them) + SCVs wipe them out pretty damn fast.
If they run from the SCVs, I just send them back to the minerals, keep going with my standard opening, then chase the lings off with SCVs and my slowly increasing force of marines then back to mining again.
Also the comment about the wall and eco was in relation to protoss. Reading comprehension. Learn it.
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I usually wall in against Protoss because I usually get cheesed if I don't.
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Russian Federation100 Posts
On September 30 2010 02:56 Pfeff wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 06:35 Fork wrote:On September 29 2010 06:02 Battlescore wrote:
How do you reinforce? Train units, reinforce your army with groups as opposed to streaming them out one by one. If you leave your base defenseless, a.k.a all-in, and DON'T continue to produce troops, yes you are likely a dead terran. If you're halfway across the map and enemy terran shows up at your gate, well then you have quite a quandry don't you? Good thing you walled in and the troops you have in your base can hop in the bunker, SCVs repairing and hopefully seige tank protecting the ramp.
Having bunkers doesn't mean your forces are going to get overrun. the term reinforcing assumes you are engaged in battle at the enemies base, and are feeding a constant supply of units to.. well, reinforce your force. The chance of any significant counter attack is generally low, if at all. I'm guessing you are like gold/platinum max. No offense here at all, just saying that if I see a force I feel like I can't beat head to head I am running by or flanking their base as instead of trying to defend, new units can defend while I counter attack and make him come defend. It's a good way to win a battle you know you will lose, if you know what I mean. 1.1k diamond and counter attack is fairly common. When I do it, I pray you are sending all your shit to my base to attack so I can get 3 free minutes in your base to chill with your SCV's while my new units slow you down to the point of defending yourself
thanks, i'm in Tin league
many high level diamond players que their production buildings to the front lines
your argument invalid?
Maybe we should put a high ego filter on threads..
The cool thing about this game is that it can be played many ways and be effective, some are more effective than others, if you feel threatened at all times of a counter attack then by all means keep units in your base.
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LZgamer VS Nocturne TvT LZ walls off his base, Might of been beta so he wouldn't have known better. LZ is one of the best terrans out there...
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I dont agree that there is no use for a wall off against a terran though i do think its a big liability to most popular TvT strategies. Wall offs are important not only for preventing enemies melee from attacking ranged units but also from your foe having immediate access to the innards of your base.
A possible way *though very counterable by terran currently* to exploit a lack of a wall-in would be hellions. keeps some of the sneaky speedy things out of sight untill you know they are gonna attack you and then run them in to melt their workers once they are farther from their base. This would be taking a play from the zerg hand book since when a wall in isnt perfect they can just preform a runby with lings like what idra did to one of his toss foes in the HDH invitational.
So basicly im saying even against the terrans with their abundant range a wall-in can still serve a purpose (albeit extremely limited). If they dont wanna drop a ghost in your base, favoring to walk them in, this also would hinder them a bit *though they may find it worth it to just nuke the wall*.
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EPT
