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There have been quite a few discussions involving 7 pools lately on tl, but everyone seems to have a different way to 7 pool. I know mine is much different than what I have seen, and I am curious to see what others are doing. I think it would be wise to get everyone on the same page
This issue is that on the forums a Protoss player will say "I know how to beat a 7 pool, do X." But if for whatever reason he isn't playing a "correct" or optimal 7 pool, how can we decipher if he has good advice, or just a misunderstood game sense?
I checked the wiki, and there is no official 7 pool build. Here is what i do, and is what I think is optimal. And PLEASE don't turn this into a "how to defend/how to win" thread, as we already have 24 of those. This is strictly for HOW you 7 pool, and why you think its the most optimal.(or proven)
7/10 Make your pool
6/10 Make a drone
7/10 Make a drone
8/10 Make a drone
Now at 9/10, you start saving larva
Right as the pool pops, you do a double extractor trick, while both are forming make 6 lings
Then cancel both extractors.
Now you are at 12/10 supply with 6 lings being made
12/10 Make an overlord
Right when your overlord finishes you have just enough money for a queen PLUS more lings.
Why I like this build? It just feels right. You never really have to wait around forever and save up to 100 for an overlord. Then the queen timing is perfect. you can inject and have enough for a full batch of 10(actually 8 since i think you have to squeeze in another overlord) lings once the spawned larvae pop, really helping your follow up. And even after your queen pops, you have the money to consistently pump lings/drones. The other nice feature about this, is if you run into some brick wall with this build, you can just make 5 drones and crawl your way back into the game. By the time you get the front door, you can determine whether or not you will be able to win with the 10 reinforcement lings, or if you just need to damage what you can with your initial 6/8/10 (depending on map size and distance) and switch it to powering mode.
How do you 7 pool?
Thanks for reading.
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what's the point of this build when you can just like 14 pool or 15 pool if you wanna 6 pool then 6 pool i really don't get it
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On September 26 2010 14:04 Elevenst wrote:
what's the point of this build when you can just like 14 pool or 15 pool if you wanna 6 pool then 6 pool i really don't get it
So when you 7pool you get the best 7pool possible. Whats the point of learning any build? Why don't you just freestyle and build random shit?
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On September 26 2010 14:22 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 14:04 Elevenst wrote:
what's the point of this build when you can just like 14 pool or 15 pool if you wanna 6 pool then 6 pool i really don't get it So when you 7pool you get the best 7pool possible. Whats the point of learning any build? Why don't you just freestyle and build random shit?
I think what he's asking is why you aren't doing a 6pool. The idea behind a 6pool is to kill them right now, because you will have zero econ later. The idea behind the 14/15pool is to have a better econ later, and win via macro. The 7pool is worse at instawinning than the 6pool, meaning you are more likely to reach a midgame. The 7pool still had a shitty econ so if it fails, you will lose the midgame anyway. 6pool maximizes the cheese, 15pool maximizes the econ, and 7pool is left in the middle, where it basically doesn't bring anything valuable to the table.
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On September 26 2010 14:44 GWash wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 14:22 sob3k wrote:On September 26 2010 14:04 Elevenst wrote:
what's the point of this build when you can just like 14 pool or 15 pool if you wanna 6 pool then 6 pool i really don't get it So when you 7pool you get the best 7pool possible. Whats the point of learning any build? Why don't you just freestyle and build random shit? I think what he's asking is why you aren't doing a 6pool. The idea behind a 6pool is to kill them right now, because you will have zero econ later. The idea behind the 14/15pool is to have a better econ later, and win via macro. The 7pool is worse at instawinning than the 6pool, meaning you are more likely to reach a midgame. The 7pool still had a shitty econ so if it fails, you will lose the midgame anyway. 6pool maximizes the cheese, 15pool maximizes the econ, and 7pool is left in the middle, where it basically doesn't bring anything valuable to the table.
I am pretty sure that even though 7 pool lings(at least mine) are going to come later, you get a swarm of lings more slightly later, something i think that 6 pools probably cant do.
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I'll have to look at one of my old builds, but I did a 7 pool worker rush, where I was able to get an extra 150 minerals to get 3 more sets of lings out by the time my first batch of lings popped out. A 7 pool could add more offense to a rush, rather than just throwing lings out there.
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7pool isn't all in, it's just an extremely aggressive opener. It works out nicely such that you get a surplus of minerals while waiting for your first overlord to finish and get an insanely fast queen. When the lings pop on a 6 pool you have 5 drones, when the lings pop on a 7 pool you have 9, almost twice the economy. If you do any damage you can drone very hard afterwards and often you outright win. Even if you do no damage you are quite behind but you can pull yourself back into the game.
One of my favorite replays CatZ vs Huk, 7 pool does next to no damage cause well its huk, but even still CatZ takes it into the midgame and has chances.
http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/catz-vs-huk-metalopolis
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Back in BW a 5 pool was only 2 seconds slower than a 4 pool so I feel as though in SC2 the difference should be too great from a 6 and a 7 pool although the delay maybe 1-2 seconds higher because you start with 6 drones that mine 5 minerals instead of 4 drones that mine 8 each
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The point of the 6 pool is to have an unstoppable force of lings ASAP, before they have anything to counter it. This build gives you 6 lings and then no more additional lings for quite a while.
Nearly all of my 6 pool attempts do some initial damage, but I can't win the game until lings 7-8 and 9-10 show up, especially if I lose one or two of them. If I had to wait a while for more lings, they would often be able to deal with the lings and finish their walloff.
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On September 26 2010 15:04 Jaeger wrote:7pool isn't all in, it's just an extremely aggressive opener. It works out nicely such that you get a surplus of minerals while waiting for your first overlord to finish and get an insanely fast queen. When the lings pop on a 6 pool you have 5 drones, when the lings pop on a 7 pool you have 9, almost twice the economy. If you do any damage you can drone very hard afterwards and often you outright win. Even if you do no damage you are quite behind but you can pull yourself back into the game. One of my favorite replays CatZ vs Huk, 7 pool does next to no damage cause well its huk, but even still CatZ takes it into the midgame and has chances. http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/catz-vs-huk-metalopolis
Does he win? I've never seen anyone do no damage with a <10 pool and win.
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From BW, 4-pool was an all-in Zergling rush with little possibility of recovering if you failed to win outright. It was barely faster than 5pool, but the reinforcing Zerglings were available much sooner.
6pool is analogous to BW's 4pool. 7pool is analogous to BW's 5pool.
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Hmmm interesting, timing looks much better than mine.
7 Pool
6 Drone
Make 6 Lings
Overlord + Queen
From then on it's just a complete drone pump while microing the 6 lings
The point of my 7 pool isn't to win the game, it's to take him out of his comfort zone and scaring him into making more units than he'd like to. Normally after my harassment is done I actually have a better economy than my opponent. =P
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interesting .. anybody has some numbers how hard the eco is hit in case of the "eco-recovery-scenario" ? If you build 5 drones instead of scnd wave of lings, you are at 14 drones which does not sound that bad .. i'll try ;-). This will also shut down any protoss cheese quite easily because of early lings :-D
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On September 26 2010 19:01 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
interesting .. anybody has some numbers how hard the eco is hit in case of the "eco-recovery-scenario" ? If you build 5 drones instead of scnd wave of lings, you are at 14 drones which does not sound that bad .. i'll try ;-). This will also shut down any protoss cheese quite easily because of early lings :-D
I really should write a guide. Every "pool" post on tl has been complete garbage, both the advice for and against it.
Sadly though I don't look at the econ numbers after it. The problem now is that every time i 7 pool on ladder on steppes its autowin. So i rarely ever have to take the "econ route." But good suggestion, i'll try to save my next replay where i 7pool and turn it into an econ advantage. Basically you would have to do some sort of damage; take out a few probes, stop alot of mining time, kill a pylon; force a supply block; kill a stray zealot; kill a gateway. All very viable, even with proper 7 pool defense
I really feel like 7 pools are more of pressure builds, with a chance of winning right there, if the P doesn't know how to defend it correctly.
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i tried .. if the rush fails and you drone after it, you are about 3 drones behind a 14 pool 17 gas, which should level out round 5:30, since you get your queen earlier (so spawn larva comes earlier) .. great i'll try .. this should be of advantage except at pro level (because they probably always will fend off the attack, so the early lings never pay off). Great work :-D. ling attack on xelnaga is round 3'30 ..
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at least you need to do very few damage to even the fields, if you kill 2 probes it should be sufficient, since T/P cannot replace them as fast as you .. however you may get counter rushed instantly ..
Also cool: you save the scouting drone, i did not incorporate this in my quick timing test.
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When I was killing the Insane AI with Zerg, I did the following BO:
6 Drone
7 Pool
6 Drone
7 Overlord
7 6xZerglings
After this I just pump out lings. And also, when the 6 initial Zerglings pop I pull a drone for a spine crawler. It is possible to make one and keep constant zergling production.
This however is an even more all-in version of the 7pool then your versions.
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I'm not sure which is better but there are plenty of reasons a 7 pool or 8 pool could be better than a 6 pool. Larva management, better econ bringing out later zerglings a lot faster etc. There is no reason that everything between a 6 pool and a 12+ pool is a waste.
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I prefer to do this:
7 pool
drone
overlord
6 lings
keep making lings then drones if needed
I prefer this version because you can constantly be getting zerglings reinforcing and you will have 8 then 10 etc much faster than with the other method though you have 2 less drones.
There are too many times when 6 lings dont quite cut it and 10 can kill the zelot or whatever and keep doing the damage.
I prefer to 7 pool rather than 6 pool because there are definitely games where you can win with a transition after you get a bit of damage done. If you start pumping drones after about 10 lings and get your queen quick you can beat a toss that has gotten a few cannons and lost a few probes.
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Timings until 6 lings pop (without mineral trick):
6 Pool => Lings at 2:20
7 Pool (with double extractor trick) => lings at 2:25
8 Pool (with ovie at 9) => 2:33
lings require ~50 to 60 seconds (depends on map) to run to opponents main
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thanks OP, the 7 pool build works pretty well
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There is literally no reason to 6 pool over a 7 pool. You get lings maybe 1-2 seconds faster (which if you're winning with a 6 pool, it's not the 2 seconds that lets you win), and have such bad economy that you can't do anything other than build a ling pair every larvae tick. If you 7 pool you get the lings out at almost the same time but have an actual economy transition provided you do anything useful with your plethora of lings.
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EPT
