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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
Hawk,
in my experience, when going speed expand vs hatch first there's a timing window where they get double injects before you have your natural up. You can't keep up in production; you need banelings because of that; but if he makes double inject drones you are leagues behind. Obviously he *should* go roaches, which would nullify any advantage hatch first has, because everything else is unsafe; but why would he open hatch first in the first place if he wanted to play safe?
There's also speed expand vs speed expand scenarios. Staying on no gas for too long is unsafe, but gives you a huge advantage over someone who quickly goes for defensive roach/bling. Your build would put you way behind someone who skips the nest/warren; and if/when you can scout it it's already too late to commit to an attack.
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On July 05 2011 15:04 dementrio wrote:
Hawk,
in my experience, when going speed expand vs hatch first there's a timing window where they get double injects before you have your natural up. You can't keep up in production; you need banelings because of that; but if he makes double inject drones you are leagues behind. Obviously he *should* go roaches, which would nullify any advantage hatch first has, because everything else is unsafe; but why would he open hatch first in the first place if he wanted to play safe?
There's also speed expand vs speed expand scenarios. Staying on no gas for too long is unsafe, but gives you a huge advantage over someone who quickly goes for defensive roach/bling. Your build would put you way behind someone who skips the nest/warren; and if/when you can scout it it's already too late to commit to an attack.
hi, you made some really good points, and again I'm not saying this build is perfect, there is no "perfect" build for zvz, I said that this build was SAFE.
Given that, I will address your two points.
First point is that this build can't keep up in production against an aggressive 15 hatch. It's actually quite easy to do so, just use your initial 6 speedzerglings to scout how many drones he has at his natural, and his larva count which will tell if he is massing them for an attack. I will show how you can defend with this build in the replay I give, the game is against FXOSheth. And again, the 6 zerglings with speed will easily be able to see if he's making drones, in which case you can react properly...
Speed expand vs Speed expand in which your opponent goes speed no warren/nest is almost unheard of, mainly because it's a HUGE meta-game risk, but you're right if your opponent does that, you are left behind, but not as much as you would think, because you already have some roaches out that are useful in the mid-game anyway. So it's true that if someone does speed expand without bane or roach support they can get an advantage against this, but no one is going to do this, because that build would die against literally almost anything else.
Here's the replay http://replayfu.com/r/r6wjjg (speedling expand into roach defending against 15 hatch aggression)
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Right, I´ve tried to search for this but I´m in trouble with the following ZvT:
I go FE
Terran goes Bunker Rush, I hold off and drone a bit.
Terran comes with 2-6 hellions, I react and hold it off with either spines/queens or roaches.
Then a few mins later the Terran comes up with siege tanks + some bio ball and left over hellions.
I don't have a third yet, nor does he have an expo up and it's only about 2-3 tanks with siege mode.
How do I hold it off?
Mass zergling seem to die too fast to get to the tanks, I see banes having the same faith.. I suppose I could mass more roaches but they die fast to marauders and Mutas will be way too late..
Say I scout this/see it coming, how to react?
I've been trying more infestor-based play lately, maybe that'll help.
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Hello. Recently I've been going 3 hatch (thats 2 expansions, 1 main base) before lair tech in both ZvP and ZvT. At my level I have been outmacroing opponents hard with this opening. However, I'm worried that I am not aware of ways an opponent could exploit this'
My question is, can someone just provide general information on this opening? eg. How would someone respond, what should I look out for, etc.?
Thanks in advance
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On July 07 2011 05:46 Atila wrote:
Hello. Recently I've been going 3 hatch (thats 2 expansions, 1 main base) before lair tech in both ZvP and ZvT. At my level I have been outmacroing opponents hard with this opening. However, I'm worried that I am not aware of ways an opponent could exploit this'
My question is, can someone just provide general information on this opening? eg. How would someone respond, what should I look out for, etc.?
Thanks in advance
imo this build is only good vs a fast expanding protoss.
You can't do it vs terran cause you would have to spend too much on spines to defend mass blue flames or just plain mass marines.
against a non-fast expanding protoss, you expose yourself to a 6 gate all-in!
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On July 07 2011 05:46 Atila wrote:
Hello. Recently I've been going 3 hatch (thats 2 expansions, 1 main base) before lair tech in both ZvP and ZvT. At my level I have been outmacroing opponents hard with this opening. However, I'm worried that I am not aware of ways an opponent could exploit this'
My question is, can someone just provide general information on this opening? eg. How would someone respond, what should I look out for, etc.?
Thanks in advance
For zvp, I'd suggest you check out morrows games. You can find replays with him vs cruncher and minigun from the EG masters cup page (week 8):
http://www.mcs.myeg.net/results.html
There is also a day9 daily of a earlier version of morrows build worth checking out.
In zvt, I don't think 2 expos before lair is viable. You'll die to most, if not all, common terran timings before you can saturate 3 bases and get lair tech up.
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On July 07 2011 06:03 Konsume wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 05:46 Atila wrote:
Hello. Recently I've been going 3 hatch (thats 2 expansions, 1 main base) before lair tech in both ZvP and ZvT. At my level I have been outmacroing opponents hard with this opening. However, I'm worried that I am not aware of ways an opponent could exploit this'
My question is, can someone just provide general information on this opening? eg. How would someone respond, what should I look out for, etc.?
Thanks in advance
imo this build is only good vs a fast expanding protoss. You can't do it vs terran cause you would have to spend too much on spines to defend mass blue flames or just plain mass marines. against a non-fast expanding protoss, you expose yourself to a 6 gate all-in!
I obviously won't do this if I have scouted an all-in :D
In response to the vs Terran, wouldn't roaches stop both hellions and rines?
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On July 07 2011 05:37 Giku wrote:
Right, I´ve tried to search for this but I´m in trouble with the following ZvT:
I go FE
Terran goes Bunker Rush, I hold off and drone a bit.
Terran comes with 2-6 hellions, I react and hold it off with either spines/queens or roaches.
Then a few mins later the Terran comes up with siege tanks + some bio ball and left over hellions.
I don't have a third yet, nor does he have an expo up and it's only about 2-3 tanks with siege mode.
How do I hold it off?
Mass zergling seem to die too fast to get to the tanks, I see banes having the same faith.. I suppose I could mass more roaches but they die fast to marauders and Mutas will be way too late..
Say I scout this/see it coming, how to react?
I've been trying more infestor-based play lately, maybe that'll help.
It seems you just need to refine your drone/army timings a bit. If you defend the bunker rush and the hellion transition adequately you should be miles ahead if he's still on 1 base. I think you might be overreacting to his attacks.
If you don't see a natural expo happening from terran, just focus on building lots of stuff and flank him while he's moving towards your base. Basically any army composition should work.
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On July 07 2011 05:37 Giku wrote:
Right, I´ve tried to search for this but I´m in trouble with the following ZvT:
I go FE
Terran goes Bunker Rush, I hold off and drone a bit.
Terran comes with 2-6 hellions, I react and hold it off with either spines/queens or roaches.
Then a few mins later the Terran comes up with siege tanks + some bio ball and left over hellions.
I don't have a third yet, nor does he have an expo up and it's only about 2-3 tanks with siege mode.
How do I hold it off?
Mass zergling seem to die too fast to get to the tanks, I see banes having the same faith.. I suppose I could mass more roaches but they die fast to marauders and Mutas will be way too late..
Say I scout this/see it coming, how to react?
I've been trying more infestor-based play lately, maybe that'll help.
You're going to have to give us a replay of this, but for now I'll say that "holding it off" isn't enough you need to have a worker advantage against terran while fighting off their harrass, it's hard but definitely doable, if you're a muta ling player, mutalisks should be out long before he can go for a tank marine timing attack, if you're a roach player I would suggest to use Roach baneling against that composition. I can't say much more without a replay.
~vileHawk
On July 07 2011 05:46 Atila wrote:
Hello. Recently I've been going 3 hatch (thats 2 expansions, 1 main base) before lair tech in both ZvP and ZvT. At my level I have been outmacroing opponents hard with this opening. However, I'm worried that I am not aware of ways an opponent could exploit this'
My question is, can someone just provide general information on this opening? eg. How would someone respond, what should I look out for, etc.?
Thanks in advance
This build is meant to counter your opponents (protoss or terran) fast expansion build by going onto 3 bases early against them, as Zerg needs to be on 1 more base than their opponent. Of course doing this blindly can lead to an easy win for your opponent if he decides to stay on 1 base.
At the top level there are many builds tailored to punish this type of play, like FE into double factory hellion, FE into 6 gate, FE into fast void/pheonix to name a few. So it's a strong way to play if you do it correctly I.E. scout beforehand that they are expanding and know how P/T usually play against a 3 base Zerg and just counter it.
~vileHawk <3
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put into spoilers because quote is long :>
+ Show Spoiler +On July 07 2011 06:45 Hawk2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 05:46 Atila wrote:
Hello. Recently I've been going 3 hatch (thats 2 expansions, 1 main base) before lair tech in both ZvP and ZvT. At my level I have been outmacroing opponents hard with this opening. However, I'm worried that I am not aware of ways an opponent could exploit this'
My question is, can someone just provide general information on this opening? eg. How would someone respond, what should I look out for, etc.?
Thanks in advance
This build is meant to counter your opponents (protoss or terran) fast expansion build by going onto 3 bases early against them, as Zerg needs to be on 1 more base than their opponent. Of course doing this blindly can lead to an easy win for your opponent if he decides to stay on 1 base. At the top level there are many builds tailored to punish this type of play, like FE into double factory hellion, FE into 6 gate, FE into fast void/pheonix to name a few. So it's a strong way to play if you do it correctly I.E. scout beforehand that they are expanding and know how P/T usually play against a 3 base Zerg and just counter it. ~vileHawk <3
You specifically mentioned FE. My question is, if a P/T isn't doing a one-base all-in (therefore he will be expanding, though not a FE), is it safe go ahead and take my third expansion before Lair?
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Another question: in ZvT, I tend to struggle with bunker rushes. Can someone walk me through how to respond to this and its many transitions (expo, 4rax). With the transitions especially I feel my response is very coinflippy, is this normal or am I missing something?
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I've been experimenting with MorroW's ZvP which is basically an adjusted Spanishiwa build transitioning into Ling/BLing/Infestor with +2/+2 baneling drops and a lot of drop / counter attack antics in general.
While I like the build itself a lot, I am not too confident with the Infestor transition. You have to multitask a lot to make this build effective and not having your macro totally collapse is hard enough. Handling the infestors just seems to be a little bit too much for me. I've been trying to get Mutalisks (and eventually BLords and Cracklings) instead of Infestors to enhance the distractive side of this build in order to get more baneling drops going.
While I have had huge success with it, I am not too sure wether it's just my opponents being goldish level suckers as I myself or if it is a good idea to transition into Muta in general. Sometimes, my opponent just decides to do a desperation attack with all the stuff he has left and I find myself struggling against that if I spend most of my gas on Mutas instead of banelings, just because they lack the raw fighting ability of infestors. (Sounds contraintuitive, but is actually pretty accurate, from what I feel.)
Have you seen anyone... well, legit do this? I know MutaLing is a common style, especially Moon and July use them with great success, but I just love my little baneling shenanigans. So to sum the question up: is it viable? I would hate to learn to play that style successfully and find out that in retrospect I should just have sticked with something that actually works once I get promoted.
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On July 07 2011 07:11 Atila wrote:
Another question: in ZvT, I tend to struggle with bunker rushes. Can someone walk me through how to respond to this and its many transitions (expo, 4rax). With the transitions especially I feel my response is very coinflippy, is this normal or am I missing something?
To deal with bunker rushes, use drones you transfer to natural + you're lings to kill his marines. If you can kill his marines his rush is over for the time being. he will normally cancel his bunkers, if not focus fire them and kill them. getting a surround on the marines is very critical to end this rush fast. Also making sure something is focusing on the scv building the bunker while doing this is good to.
The transitions that you are struggling with. You should be constantly scouting his natural. On most maps you can have an overlord behind his natural and can check if he's taking his expansion. If you do not see an expansion you should prepare for an all in of some sort after a certain amount of time.
What I personally do is make about 5 roaches and go to his ramp. If I see very few marines, I better prepare for banshee or blue flamed hellions. If I see a lot of marines, I need to prepare for a possible 4 rax. If he has that many marines that you're roaches would get slaughtered, he's not doing a tech build like cloaked banshee so you don't have to worry about that to much. Sacrificing an overlord the same time you poke with you're roaches is probably you're best bet to see if he's 4 raxing, expanding, or doing a tech build.
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On July 07 2011 07:25 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 07:11 Atila wrote:
Another question: in ZvT, I tend to struggle with bunker rushes. Can someone walk me through how to respond to this and its many transitions (expo, 4rax). With the transitions especially I feel my response is very coinflippy, is this normal or am I missing something? To deal with bunker rushes, use drones you transfer to natural + you're lings to kill his marines. If you can kill his marines his rush is over for the time being. he will normally cancel his bunkers, if not focus fire them and kill them. getting a surround on the marines is very critical to end this rush fast. Also making sure something is focusing on the scv building the bunker while doing this is good to. The transitions that you are struggling with. You should be constantly scouting his natural. On most maps you can have an overlord behind his natural and can check if he's taking his expansion. If you do not see an expansion you should prepare for an all in of some sort after a certain amount of time. What I personally do is make about 5 roaches and go to his ramp. If I see very few marines, I better prepare for banshee or blue flamed hellions. If I see a lot of marines, I need to prepare for a possible 4 rax. If he has that many marines that you're roaches would get slaughtered, he's not doing a tech build like cloaked banshee so you don't have to worry about that to much. Sacrificing an overlord the same time you poke with you're roaches is probably you're best bet to see if he's 4 raxing, expanding, or doing a tech build.
The roach advice is really interesting. Thanks for that.
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@Blade:
Im usually very hesitant to put an overlord behind his nat just because if he looks for it and ends up killing it, I'm supply blocked and it makes a bunker rush that much stronger. Additionally, if I poke in with roaches, couldn't a Terran just hide most his units/tech?
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On July 07 2011 07:19 Shiv. wrote:
I've been experimenting with MorroW's ZvP which is basically an adjusted Spanishiwa build transitioning into Ling/BLing/Infestor with +2/+2 baneling drops and a lot of drop / counter attack antics in general.
While I like the build itself a lot, I am not too confident with the Infestor transition. You have to multitask a lot to make this build effective and not having your macro totally collapse is hard enough. Handling the infestors just seems to be a little bit too much for me. I've been trying to get Mutalisks (and eventually BLords and Cracklings) instead of Infestors to enhance the distractive side of this build in order to get more baneling drops going.
While I have had huge success with it, I am not too sure wether it's just my opponents being goldish level suckers as I myself or if it is a good idea to transition into Muta in general. Sometimes, my opponent just decides to do a desperation attack with all the stuff he has left and I find myself struggling against that if I spend most of my gas on Mutas instead of banelings, just because they lack the raw fighting ability of infestors. (Sounds contraintuitive, but is actually pretty accurate, from what I feel.)
Have you seen anyone... well, legit do this? I know MutaLing is a common style, especially Moon and July use them with great success, but I just love my little baneling shenanigans. So to sum the question up: is it viable? I would hate to learn to play that style successfully and find out that in retrospect I should just have sticked with something that actually works once I get promoted.
Hi Shiv,
Do you have some replays/VOD/forum link about this specific "Morrow" style please ?
Thanks.
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What is the best way to pull drones off the line when a hellion harrass is incoming?
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On July 07 2011 08:41 They_ wrote:
What is the best way to pull drones off the line when a hellion harrass is incoming?
If you can see it incoming, just select all and click on your minerals in your main and block the ramp with queen/lings.
If you didn't react in time it's often best to just attack move the hellions. The drones surround the hellions instead of clumping up so that they only can hit one at a time. It also restricts their movement, allowing your queens and lings to clean them up quickly.
There is another technique where you select the drones, press stop and then spread the drones by holding F1 (select idle worker) and spam click in a circle around the hellions. I prefer attack-move though.
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On July 07 2011 08:29 Gros Bill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 07:19 Shiv. wrote:
I've been experimenting with MorroW's ZvP which is basically an adjusted Spanishiwa build transitioning into Ling/BLing/Infestor with +2/+2 baneling drops and a lot of drop / counter attack antics in general.
While I like the build itself a lot, I am not too confident with the Infestor transition. You have to multitask a lot to make this build effective and not having your macro totally collapse is hard enough. Handling the infestors just seems to be a little bit too much for me. I've been trying to get Mutalisks (and eventually BLords and Cracklings) instead of Infestors to enhance the distractive side of this build in order to get more baneling drops going.
While I have had huge success with it, I am not too sure wether it's just my opponents being goldish level suckers as I myself or if it is a good idea to transition into Muta in general. Sometimes, my opponent just decides to do a desperation attack with all the stuff he has left and I find myself struggling against that if I spend most of my gas on Mutas instead of banelings, just because they lack the raw fighting ability of infestors. (Sounds contraintuitive, but is actually pretty accurate, from what I feel.)
Have you seen anyone... well, legit do this? I know MutaLing is a common style, especially Moon and July use them with great success, but I just love my little baneling shenanigans. So to sum the question up: is it viable? I would hate to learn to play that style successfully and find out that in retrospect I should just have sticked with something that actually works once I get promoted.
Hi Shiv, Do you have some replays/VOD/forum link about this specific "Morrow" style please ? Thanks.
I just linked reps a few posts up:
#966
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In ZvT, do you need roaches to deal with marauder + hellion 1 base all in and marauder hellion 2 base play? If so, how do you tell in time to throw down the roach warren in time to deal with this tech? If he hides it well, I can't tell what hes doing, only that it includes some kind of tech, and I don't like to go roaches unless i scout 2 factory blue flame hellions because otherwise I feel I'm too vulnerable to banshees.
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