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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
Any time Toss can get his nat up in line with, or in some cases before the Zerg player, the game becomes a real struggle for the Zerg player. The Protoss mid-game army is just so powerful. Zerg really needs Hive tech to deal with it, and even then, its far from being an easy battle to win. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
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Ftrunkz
Australia2474 Posts
On September 15 2010 23:13 kcdc wrote: On second thought: You're getting second gateway on 22 and you're only using it to build a single sentry before you expand. You then mention possibly cutting production to get the nexus and the 3rd and 4th gateways down ASAP. Is the second gateway really necessary? By constantly producing and either saving up more chronoboost or spending less on warpgate research, you could keep your single gateway chronoboosted and at least match the unit count you're getting out of this double gateway build. I really like the idea of defending the natural with a cannon+sentries tho. hhhmmm, i think its a fallback. As in, if he has sneaky gone early roaches (eg that 5 roach rush that's been kicking around), he can contain you to your base, and you have to sit on your base for a long time before you have the unit count to bust out. If you don't have that extra gate, you're going to be stuck on 1-base for a lot longer and it will take a while to build up enough army to pressure him and take your nat, whereas if you have the 2 gates, you can very quickly get enough stalkers and using the sentries you can slowly creep out quite easily to take your nat quickly, and be in once again an advantageous position. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 15 2010 23:26 Ftrunkz wrote: hhhmmm, i think its a fallback. As in, if he has sneaky gone early roaches (eg that 5 roach rush that's been kicking around), he can contain you to your base, and you have to sit on your base for a long time before you have the unit count to bust out. If you don't have that extra gate, you're going to be stuck on 1-base for a lot longer and it will take a while to build up enough army to pressure him and take your nat, whereas if you have the 2 gates, you can very quickly get enough stalkers and using the sentries you can slowly creep out quite easily to take your nat quickly, and be in once again an advantageous position. Against an all-in from Z (whether by roaches, zerglings or banelings), I think you just want to stay in your main and FF the ramp to weather the storm. With good awareness and FF micro, I think you could survive without the second gateway at 22. (Upon realizing Z is going all-in, you'd obviously want to add extra gates ASAP) Against a Z build that heavily focuses on economy, I think you'll be better off with only one gateway before expanding because it will give you a better economy. Against pressure from Z that less than all-in, I'm not sure how a single gateway would compare to two. From the sound of your description, it's potentially safe to cut unit production quite a bit while getting your nexus and additional gateways, so it sounds like a single gateway into expansion could be safe against non-all-in pressure. We'll have to try it out. To summarize, I'm thinking: If Z goes economy/little to no pressure => 1-gate expand is better If Z goes for an all-in attack => either 1-gate or 2-gate will win with good micro and building placement If Z goes moderate economy/moderate pressure => ????? | ||
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Ftrunkz
Australia2474 Posts
Also i dont think you cut much production of sentry from the 2 gates while adding the other gates, since you're just spending up the excess gas, the 2nd gate isn't quite there just for the purpose of looking pretty, and if the z is going for a few speedlings (by no means all-in, see the 2 reps i posted for examples of this), the last thing you want is to run out of ff at some point ;o | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
More details here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153142 The advantage of delaying your forge is that if you do scout a mass macro zerg you can go more macro yourself as well. | ||
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wxwx
527 Posts
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agarfin
United States106 Posts
GSL INFO+ Show Spoiler + I really liked lotzeprimes play against idra in the ro32. Although idra was able to hold it off i feel like a lot of lesser zerg pros would have lost to the first attacks. | ||
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On September 16 2010 00:52 kcdc wrote: Agreed. I'll play around with the 1-gate + cannon expansion today (if I face any Z's....which I won't, because 1300+ is all Terran). I've used 1-gate expansions without the cannon against Zerg and it's almost safe. The trouble is that you can't kill speedlings quickly enough to punish harass. Zealots don't hit them and sentries and stalkers don't have enough DPS in small numbers. A single cannon would solve that problem as well as making early upgrades available. Whether using 1 or 2 gates, this seems like a really strong opening. One point about having only 1 gate is it might appear less like a 4gate all-in (and would indeed be harder to transition into a 4gate all-in if you saw something that required it). I think a lot of the strength of the build relative to, say, 2gate pressure or forge FE is that zergs have to account for the possibility that you're actually 4gating, not expanding, and that is expensive to do. | ||
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Tergeron
United States66 Posts
On September 15 2010 23:13 kcdc wrote: On second thought: You're getting second gateway on 22 and you're only using it to build a single sentry before you expand. You then mention possibly cutting production to get the nexus and the 3rd and 4th gateways down ASAP. Is the second gateway really necessary? By constantly producing and either saving up more chronoboost or spending less on warpgate research, you could keep your single gateway chronoboosted and at least match the unit count you're getting out of this double gateway build. I really like the idea of defending the natural with a cannon+sentries tho. I imagine the second gateway is there for early pressure and to break possible contains. A faster Warpgate would allow for quicker production later on. It's very possible though that the build I've seen has Chronos on the single gateway because I've seen them push out of their base with 5 sentries early on. It's worth experimenting with to see what might be better either way. | ||
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Tergeron
United States66 Posts
On September 15 2010 23:21 Markwerf wrote: I was just about to write a guide about this or a very similar build I do against zerg. Because it does differ a bit and I had just done making some wall-in pictures etc I will put it in another thread though. Don't want to put in all here in a reply basically. If you don't mind, could I link to your thread so people can find the other build order? The concept is the same but obviously different. On September 16 2010 02:31 wxwx wrote: how'd you find the BO's of the GSL players? All I see is VODs and it's pretty difficult to determine stuff like timings.. how many chrono boosts to do on warp gate etc etc. I did a lot of experimenting and going through a lot of iterations, it's very possible that my BO is not even similar to what we see in GSL. That's why I've asked in my post if anyone knew the BO so they could post it for us. | ||
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Kikuichimonji
United States102 Posts
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
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Nakmal
United States24 Posts
Expanding at 33 or wherever is not a fast expansion at all. | ||
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brokengloves
6 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 16 2010 05:57 Nakmal wrote: Can we stop calling builds that have expansions built into them FE? This is not a FE... Expanding at 33 or wherever is not a fast expansion at all. 33 is pretty fast....That's like 4 minutes (real time) into the game. I'd break expansions into two groups: (1) prepare a timing attack and expand as you set out, and (2) expand as early as you think you can defend and play defensively. I think anything that falls into the second category could be called a fast expansion. A forge fast expand can happen in the teens, but anything involving a gateway will have to wait till the 30's to be safe. Fortunately, an expansion at 30 finishes just when you're beginning to saturate your main, so it's very econ-friendly. | ||
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wxwx
527 Posts
On September 16 2010 04:45 Kikuichimonji wrote: Considering how effective early pressure is on a zerg that FE's and how much of an advantage you can get if both players 1 base I don't understand why you would want to FE. I'd rather deal with zerg 1 base vs 1 base than both players on 2 bases. I think the skill cap for defense is much higher than offense, Z will figure out a way that gives them a good chance to expand in the midst of aggression. Perhaps this is why you never see Protoss 1-basing in the GSL. | ||
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DeusVult
Australia3 Posts
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KotaOnCue
United States180 Posts
http://sc2casts.com/cast772-TesteR-vs-PAGE-1-Game-No-Event-Korean-Starcraft-Match | ||
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