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Hi, im just a litte bit curious of what should i do being new to RTS. Im sure lot of you are very experience in similar games (SC:BW, WC3, etc).
Ive noticed in pro player's replays that they always seem to know what to do, i mean, they do a specific build order but later, there are no mid-games build orders, they just flow and KNOW exactly what to do, they are not like "oh, ive got 350 minerals, well...mmm i guess ill do another 2 barracks... oh, now i have 500, well i gues 3 more barracks"
Sure is not like that.
What i would like to know is what should i do, i mean, i can perfectly do an initial build order but then i really dont know what the hell to do, an im like "oh, 300 minerals, 2 barracks... oh, now ill guess ill do a factory"... i just spend money on production buildings (or other buildings) to keep mi money low (eventuallly my macro fails and my money sky rockets)
I could look a replay, do that build order and then right down everything he did later and mimic, but im sure this is completely wrong, so, what should i do?
should i just start with any build order and just macro in whatever way so at least i start getting used to macroing, to multitasking, etc?
Hope you cant help me
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The problem with build orders for newer players in SC2 right now is that the game is in it's infancy, meaning that standard builds don't properly exist yet, so you always have to be partially reactive to what the other persons doing.
I see you play Terran though, so you won't have to react as much, so here's some stuff you can do:
You want to learn a build up to around 30-50 supply, there are a number of Terran builds right now that can deal with anything. The posts by Naruto in this thread give a pretty concise explanation of a 3 rax TvP that you can use to deal with just about everything, as well as the reactions to make to certain Protoss builds.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=152181
You don't want to get into a mindset where you just blindly copy whats in the replay, and posts like Naruto's here are going to be really helpful in understanding that "standard" builds are generally designed to be able to react to just about everything.
The same logic can be used in TvZ. Builds like 5 rax reaper and hellion expanding are strong, and there are several threads about them on TL, and because they force the zerg to react to you, the need to adapt your own build is minimal.
You're best bet is to watch a lot of replays of a high level player who you want to play like and just watch what builds they do and what they do vs different styles.
Oh and watch Day[9] Daily. It's a pretty incredible resource for players wanting to improve.
Hope this helps somewhat, it's really hard to explain this stuff 
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Well, you have to adapt to what is going on. Having said that, there are some very defined buildorders out there that reaches into late mid-game. The pro's know how many units they will have if they have X amounts of unit producing structures. They can then say;
"OK, cool, he's doing Y which means I have to get X barracks but that means I have some minerals left so I can expand. Great! Then I can get a 5th and 6th gas and thereby be able to go heavier on ghosts/medivacs meaning that I can easily counter the possibility of Ultras/Broodlords which means that I will just have to worry about roach/hydra and I can therefore start getting marauders already since that will be sufficient to deal with the roaches/hydra and they play well with my medivacs allowing for drop-harassment!"
Now, before the game it is really good if you have some sort of gameplan. It can be as simple as raxx/factory/starport into tank/viking backed by marines.
What you then need to know is; "If I add another factory, what will happen? What If if add two more factories?
Generally a feel for this comes when you have played lots and lots of games. The best pro's have clearly defined buildorders that take them to lategame but they know what effects an extra factory has on the build and compensates it somewhere else.
It should be noted that SC2 does not have as clear buildorders as BW did since we have not really had the time to figure them out yet.
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If you're playing terran (and it sounds like you are from the examples you give), you can support ABOUT 4 unit-producing structures per Command Center that is saturated. So if you've got 1 base, you can pretty consistently crank units from 3-5 rax (depending on which units. If you're making only marauders, obv you're on 3 rax, if you're massing reapers, you're obv on 5, since they're cheap on minerals).
You can also open 1/1/1 and make something from each building with minerals left over. It's up to you whether you use the minerals to expand, build more production facilities or static defense. If you're about to attack, expand. If you've been aggressive and you're keeping your opponent contained, expand. If you're harassing, expand. If you've just survived a large attack, your money is going to be very high because you were looking at the battle. Expand!
Once your expo is up, start transferring workers and saturate all your geysers and mineral patches. If you're MULE'ing consistently on 2 bases, you should have more money than you can spend. Use this money on upgrades, more production buildings, or static defenses. OR... expand again!
Build sensor towers once your bases start feeling too spread out. You'll see the enemy coming a long way off.
In short, macro better(learn to use hotkeys), make workers constantly, build production facilities, expand. If you've got 3000 minerals and no friggin gas, build 2 CC's at each base entrance and upgrade them all to Planetary fortresses. Lift CC's to island expos and spam 10 turrets on each. There are ways to spend your money. You just haven't thought of them yet.
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Alot of that decision making depends on what is going on in the game. Say you opened with a 3 rax build vs protoss and you have him fairly contained. Now might be a good time to get the expansion up.
SInce that expansion is going to get going, adding 3 more rax for your bio build is good because you'll be able to support it.
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I think you are coming at this at the wrong angle. Simply go through your build order as tightly as you can, adapting where you need to. I would say plan fairly well every move up until a bit beyond your natural. From there it's a general plan, and where experience really kicks in. I would say all you really have to do at this point from a beginners point of view is macro like crazy, add production when you expand, continue to tech, and expand when you fell like it's safe. I believe it was chill that said, "you should always be doing something". This is where your overall game plan comes in, are you harassing, going for big upgrades then making a game ending attack, or going for mass units as a few examples. Don't get caught in the trap of just building tons of units with no purpose, look to secure new expos, contain or harass.
I think maybe to answer part of your question, when to build production- I personally plan to as many as I think the amount of bases will handle all at the same time right when an expo comes online (ie half way when nexus is done). So this may mean to add 3 gateways and a robo, onto whatever I already had. This is again where experience comes in, you need to be able to judge how many buildings you need to keep your money low while constantly macroing.
Sorry if this turned out to be a long rambling, non-sensical post. Hopefully it kinda answered your questions. D:
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I know some people say too much emphasis is on hard counters, but learning them certainly can't hurt, especially if your army composition is inherently weak to your opponents.
Go though the challenges in single player for each race. This will help you know what units are strong/weak against other specific units. Then you will be able to react better in mid game depending on what your opponent is building.
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I think that if you are looking for ways to "spend your money" you are doing it wrong. You should already have planned the amount of production that you need to keep your money low. From there it's just a matter of macroing correctly. Don't look for a way to shed resources, plan out what you want to do, then add the required buildings and do it.
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Pro players have alot of experience. Knowing what to do in mid/late game depends alot on practice. If the first goal is to actually spend your minerals/gas, the next goal is to pick the strategy, and you are going to feel alot more confident in your choices once you have tried the options several times. As others have suggested both day9 and replays are a great source for ideas, but experience is what makes it look simple.
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I find I play better without copying a build order because I tend to adapt to whats going on in the battlefield. That being said, right now the game is pretty new. Most likely build orders will change rapidly. But i'm sure you can find plenty of solid bo right now. I think yabot has some good ones.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128752
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Here are some simple tips regarding macro, independent of build order:
- Time your production facilities to start about at the same time, this is the start of a cycle.
- When every unit is produced your cycle ends (or approximately, since units do not all build as quickly).
- When a cycle ends, check your mineral/gass status.
How to use the results:
- If you can't spend the money you might want to add production facilities as you see fit.
- Make sure you are realistic; if you only have a mineral surplus you probably want rax/fac with a reactor.
- Take into consideration if you are going to expand or about to run out too.
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Build orders typically don't go very long. Most BW build orders didn't go too terribly high (got you about 10 minutes into a game, usually). The reason why these players flow well and always seem to know what they're doing is because they've practiced their strategy a lot and know how to adapt and transition smoothly. You can do it too, if you like. Here is a general procedure for creating a build order:
What you want to do is have a strategy in mind. What do you want to accomplish? This is where you can be creative and choose anything you want.
Next comes executing the strategy. Try it out versus a computer first and see how long it took to get the desired result. You can start out by playing real people too, but with a computer you get a little bit more control to mess around with it.
Let's say your strategy in mind is a viking/banshee harass transitioning into rine/rauder/medivac and tanks. Practice it against a computer (or real people) and get a loose sense of when you should build certain buildings and units to turn out your harass quicker. Once you have optimized the timing you have a rough build order for the harass with an idea of a transition. Start playing a lot of games to see how it works against different strategies. You may find you need extra opening defense against a zerg speedling rush or a certain unit combo to fend off a 4gate rush. Once you get a feel for scouting them you'll know how to adapt to the strategy while still keeping oyur strategy and the idea of transition in your mind.
Most build orders you see on liquipedia assume you can do whatever you want (without pressure from an opponent). Sometimes this is the case, sometimes it's not. Also, your transition should occur either when you feel you can safely transition or your orifginal strategy has ended (or even during your opening strategy). Let's say that, while you're harassing with viking/banshee you build up a lot of barracks and tech labs, expand, and start producing your ending strategy.
Since creating your own build order is tedious and not necessarily a guarantee to be any good, a lot of players will watch replays and vods and see a strategy they really like. At that point you already have a rough build design, can practice it, and make improvement. You have to be careful here since some strategies are map-specific, spawn-location-specific, and race-specific. Make sure you make every effort to understand the point of the strategy, if possible the history, to put yourself in the creator's mindset.
Not all strategies are created equal and, over time, superior strategies stick out. Naturally, a majority of the players will start using this strategy. The optimized build order to the optimal strategy is known as the "standard build". Over time, counter strategies develop as well as new strategies that overcome the standard. For example, in BW 3 hatch muta dominated ZvP. After a period of time (it was a good long while) an opposing strategy, Forge FE into Sair/DT, dominated 3 hatch muta. After another period of time (about a year) 3 base spire into 5 hatch hydra emerged as an optimal counter-strategy. I have no doubt that the same thing will happen to SC2 in the coming months/years.
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You need to know how many unit producing structures you can sustain with how many bases up.
To learn this: just practice  (you get ~800mins & 230gas /minute with one saturated base)
If your macro fails (skyrocking money) it's good to have some more structures compared to how many you can sustain if you play perfect. So whenever you have too much money throw down some buildings.
With this information you can go ahead and plan for the middlegame:
"I want to have 2 bases mining. With those I can support X barracks, Y factories and Z starports. Because my macro fails I'll just add two more barracks. The order in which I should get the buildings is rax rax fac sp (or whatever)".
Now you play the game (until your starting BO ends), and whenever you have enough money (while producing units from your structures constantly) you add another building in the order you decided.
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Thx a lot to all.
The thing is i really suck because im totally new at SC (rts in general).
I guess ill do X build order and just try to macro good, learn that, cuz right now is the biggest flaw i see in my play. When I can control that i guess ill check other things.
If i really keep thinking in terms of "i should build 2 barracks to counter that, and maybe a fact" is kinda difficult cuz ill have to learn that too right now and that means reading tons of theory (which i like a lot) which will end up in less practice.
Like some of you told me, i think i should just play and spend my money so eventually macroing will be more natural, after that i could focus on other things.
One more thing, should i practice alone or vs AI? i think i need AI so i have battles, right? cuz if i dont have any i could really concentrate on building with any trouble. Is the multitasking that makes me delay on macroing. If someone thinks i should only play with other people and learn all i need while getting owned, plz do tell me.
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On September 13 2010 05:50 diegocandamo wrote:
Hi, im just a litte bit curious of what should i do being new to RTS. Im sure lot of you are very experience in similar games (SC:BW, WC3, etc).
Ive noticed in pro player's replays that they always seem to know what to do, i mean, they do a specific build order but later, there are no mid-games build orders, they just flow and KNOW exactly what to do, they are not like "oh, ive got 350 minerals, well...mmm i guess ill do another 2 barracks... oh, now i have 500, well i gues 3 more barracks"
Sure is not like that.
What i would like to know is what should i do, i mean, i can perfectly do an initial build order but then i really dont know what the hell to do, an im like "oh, 300 minerals, 2 barracks... oh, now ill guess ill do a factory"... i just spend money on production buildings (or other buildings) to keep mi money low (eventuallly my macro fails and my money sky rockets)
I could look a replay, do that build order and then right down everything he did later and mimic, but im sure this is completely wrong, so, what should i do?
should i just start with any build order and just macro in whatever way so at least i start getting used to macroing, to multitasking, etc?
Hope you cant help me
you press f12 ingame, learn the unit counters, and COUNTER!
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Play some games where you don't watch battles and never stop macroing
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On September 13 2010 12:20 fallore wrote:
Play some games where you don't watch battles and never stop macroing
^^
A good way to get build orders/macro down well, is to fight the computer on Very Easy, and pick up like 2-4 expansions, and try to keep your minerals way low. The computer won't give you too much trouble, so you can really focus on your build. You could also make a custom game with no opponent haha
You could also jump into 4v4 when you are comfortable with what you are doing, because in 4v4, a lot of the times, you won't be the target of harass (instead of trying to practice macro in a 1v1, where you will always be the target)
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A word of advice, there is a difference between an "opening" and a "build". You say that you can do an early build order... that is an opening.
"14pool 13gas 15 hatch" is an opening.
"one base muta" or "two base roach/hydra" are builds.
Specific building timings all the way to late game is impossible, because too much adaptation occurs.
Pros know what to do because they know all the rules and nuances of each situation, they know exactly what their opponent's capabilities are, as well as their own. They make decisions both based on what's happening right now, as well as the position they'd like to be in in the future.
You need to learn more.
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I think you should get used to a standard opening and a general build at first like an overall plan for the game such as teching to BCs or mech then just practice.
Pros play within a small skill gap unlike the rest so they just have a huge understanding of all the tiny things in the game like matching the energies of the expansions so you can MULE all of them at the same time and i think all that just comes from practice.
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EPT
