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This is not a normal "How do I increase my APM" thread, since that unfortunately is lofty thinking for me. I put this in the strategy section because I'm asking for a 'meta-strategy' of sorts in how to approach playing the game itself given a specific circumstance.
I have a disorder that makes it difficult for me to have 100+ apm (in fact, I hover around 30 when I'm really going at it). This becomes worse in times of stress as my autonomic nervous system does not respond correctly to the epinephrine response and I begin to tremor slightly (or not so slightly at times). I feel fortunate that I can play starcraft II as well as I do, especially since I'm unable to drive or work because of it, but I want to get better and better!
I've managed to work my way up to platinum level, and I realize that I still need to work on my macro and strategic thinking, but I'm beginning to notice that I'm losing games when I'm FAR ahead almost entirely due to outright micro disasters and the subsequent inability to recover from absent macro during that period.
I'd really like to get some suggestions on how to improve. What are some ideas I can use, things I can practice, strategies to focus on, etc...
FWIW I currently play zerg, which I'm sure is a mistake. I'm quite willing to switch races and put in the effort if there is going to be considerable gains.
Thanks for any help!
Update later in the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=152320¤tpage=5#86
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Hotkey as much as you can. Hotkey your hatcheries together in one and your queens separately(or look up more techniques for injecting larva and see which one fits you best). At least this way you can make units from hatches while looking at your army and then quickly go back to it. Larva will be harder for you though...
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Dont know man. I guess making builds that don´t require apm spam. Cant say i dont know builds that aint. Protoss is pretty straightforward compared to zerg and terran.
Almost all units pretty much are a-movable except for HT, pheonix and sentries.
Look around for good hotkey tips for example; toggeling main buidings with backspace.
GL HF!
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As many others would say, APM is not everything. This holds especially true in SC2. Macro, economy, unit composition and strategic thinking will definitely trump micro or higher apm any day.
Rarely do you see a micro intensive games in SC2. You'll normally see the players macroing really hard and clashing at 150+ food supply battles where micro is almost non existent and unit composition and strategic engaging kicks in. Now there are some cases where people can pull off clutch force fields or stim kiting and things like that but again, not too hard there.
I guess what you're asking for is help on multi-tasking. It would seem you're having trouble keeping up production while fighting at the same time. My advice would be to make sure you have all the important stuff hotkeyed and comfortable hotkeys at that. Zerg of course is the hardest to multi task and may not be the best choice at the moment. It's really hard to multi-task with creep tumors, larvae inject, overlord placement and units that melt if you're not paying attention. I definitely do think if you switched races you'd be a lot more successful. Basically because I think zerg is just underpowered at the moment. APM aside, any zerg who switches races would probably be more successful.
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On September 13 2010 02:21 yesplz wrote:
Hotkey as much as you can. Hotkey your hatcheries together in one and your queens separately(or look up more techniques for injecting larva and see which one fits you best). At least this way you can make units from hatches while looking at your army and then quickly go back to it. Larva will be harder for you though...
That is what I currently try to do, but I really mess up hotkeys. I always end up with larva, queens, random buildings in my hotkeys. I'm really working on cleaning this up, but seem to be failing pretty hard. Is that normal for other people? I'm very curious about that.
edit: Actually, you have me thinking here. Most of my APM issue is that I have a lot of difficulty controlling the mouse. It takes me longer than the average person to put the mouse where I want it and click while it's there (clicking a zergling usually takes me 15 or so seconds  ). I can, however, type pretty well. I should use this to my advantage and try to make a very keyboard-centric playing style.
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Rather than try to focus on APM, just try to focus on what you should be doing at any given time. Try to stay proactive with your units, keep your money low, always scout. As you improve your play your apm will naturally improve. Zerg takes a A LOT of multitasking, but if you enjoy playing zerg there is no reason to switch just because you have low apm.
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On September 13 2010 02:25 tackklee wrote:
As many others would say, APM is not everything. This holds especially true in SC2. Macro, economy, unit composition and strategic thinking will definitely trump micro or higher apm any day.
I'd love to believe this, and would readily do so if there was a 1500+ diamond player who averaged 30-40apm. Hell, even 800+ would seriously convince me it's possible.
That doesn't mean I don't think I couldn't be the first (triple negative, hooray!). It'd be awesome if there was someone to learn from though 
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Could you perhaps post a replay or two? I'm having a little trouble understanding exactly what you mean by your epinephrine response doesn't work correctly.
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As long as you keep injecting larvae as much as possible, you can play diamond quality zerg with very low APM.
Handspeed is nothing in this game, compared to knowing what you should be doing. With experience, your APM can(and should) actually decrease a little because you're no longer fumbling around all over the place trying to get your macro right. Being streamlined might make it seem like you're playing slowly, but efficiency matters, a lot.
You're much less likely to drop the ball when you've got practiced motions and can devote more attention to non-APM tasks, like scouting, strategizing, and watching the minimap.
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On September 13 2010 02:30 Bumblebees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 02:25 tackklee wrote:
As many others would say, APM is not everything. This holds especially true in SC2. Macro, economy, unit composition and strategic thinking will definitely trump micro or higher apm any day.
I'd love to believe this, and would readily do so if there was a 1500+ diamond player who averaged 30-40apm. Hell, even 800+ would seriously convince me it's possible. That doesn't mean I don't think I couldn't be the first (triple negative, hooray!). It'd be awesome if there was someone to learn from though
Well, a 1500+ diamond player will definitely not be at 30-40 apm. But there are quite a few out there that are 800+ diamond with that low apm. I know this first hand because when I watch my replays and check out the opponents apm I see it all the time.
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On September 13 2010 02:31 Zerksys wrote:
Could you perhaps post a replay or two? I'm having a little trouble understanding exactly what you mean by your epinephrine response doesn't work correctly.
I have severe 'pure autonomic failure' (and I'm way too young for it). An effect of this is when there is a 'fight or flight' response, or simple stress response my body greatly overreacts. The main effect of this is that it causes tremors and a subsequent rapid loss of blood pressure. Outside of this I have minor tremors and coordination difficulties due to low BP and abnormal autonomic response (along with other non-sc2 related symptoms that are fun fun fun).
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On September 13 2010 02:25 sourbiscuits wrote:Almost all units pretty much are a-movable except for HT, pheonix and sentries.
Unfortunatly you won't be able to beat a a-moving Terran, unless you've got a far supperior army.
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On September 13 2010 02:42 Bumblebees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 02:31 Zerksys wrote:
Could you perhaps post a replay or two? I'm having a little trouble understanding exactly what you mean by your epinephrine response doesn't work correctly. I'll post some shortly I have severe 'pure autonomic failure' (and I'm way too young for it). An effect of this is when there is a 'fight or flight' response, or simple stress response my body greatly overreacts. The main effect of this is that it causes tremors and a subsequent rapid loss of blood pressure. Outside of this I have minor tremors and coordination difficulties due to low BP and abnormal autonomic response (along with other non-sc2 related symptoms that are fun fun fun).
...Not to bug you about your life, but are you sure playing Starcraft is entirely safe for you?
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On September 13 2010 02:47 Darthturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 02:42 Bumblebees wrote:On September 13 2010 02:31 Zerksys wrote:
Could you perhaps post a replay or two? I'm having a little trouble understanding exactly what you mean by your epinephrine response doesn't work correctly. I'll post some shortly I have severe 'pure autonomic failure' (and I'm way too young for it). An effect of this is when there is a 'fight or flight' response, or simple stress response my body greatly overreacts. The main effect of this is that it causes tremors and a subsequent rapid loss of blood pressure. Outside of this I have minor tremors and coordination difficulties due to low BP and abnormal autonomic response (along with other non-sc2 related symptoms that are fun fun fun). ...Not to bug you about your life, but are you sure playing Starcraft is entirely safe for you?
Yeah, I'm ok I have plenty of medications to keep the severe symptoms at bay. I certainly can't ladder for hours like most people. 4-5 games spread out across the day is more than enough to wreck me.
Not much else I can do, and SC2 is really fun! I'd be pretty depressed if I didn't at least have a game like this to keep my mind busy.
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cycle through all of your hot keys and slowly youll get faster.
if i were to type the keys out it would look like this
3434343434343453435343534353435333433443344334433443534353435343534324322323232343454646454645464546454674454645464333334343435343232322233443536
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On September 13 2010 02:42 Bumblebees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 02:31 Zerksys wrote:
Could you perhaps post a replay or two? I'm having a little trouble understanding exactly what you mean by your epinephrine response doesn't work correctly. The main effect of this is that it causes tremors and a subsequent rapid loss of blood pressure.
One recommendation - you're sitting down for a long time while playing SC, so blood pooling in your legs probably lowers your blood pressure even further. Have you tried compression stockings / sitting on your legs while playing?
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On September 13 2010 02:26 Bumblebees wrote:edit: Actually, you have me thinking here. Most of my APM issue is that I have a lot of difficulty controlling the mouse. It takes me longer than the average person to put the mouse where I want it and click while it's there (clicking a zergling usually takes me 15 or so seconds ). I can, however, type pretty well. I should use this to my advantage and try to make a very keyboard-centric playing style.
If you can't click on individual zerglings, you can try just selecting a lot of units with the mouse (point and drag). There's a button then to cycle through the different types of units in your group, so it'll then select only those.
Also, if you play zerg - use SC2tools to remap hotkeys as you want. I remapped backspace to capslock so hitting it cycles through all your hatcheries. That should help with larva inject instead of trying to use the minimap.
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I'm sure you already do this, but you should probably just try to really focus at what you want to get done, and at not getting stressed out when it takes longer than expected. Just finish one task after the other as cleanly as possible and, just like someone without your disorder, you should improve as your body gets used to the motions albeit maybe at a slower pace.
Suggesting this since it sounds like it's the stress response you'd need to combat to get over the tremors and improve your accuracy and hopefully speed.
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On September 13 2010 02:26 Bumblebees wrote:edit: Actually, you have me thinking here. Most of my APM issue is that I have a lot of difficulty controlling the mouse. It takes me longer than the average person to put the mouse where I want it and click while it's there (clicking a zergling usually takes me 15 or so seconds ). I can, however, type pretty well. I should use this to my advantage and try to make a very keyboard-centric playing style.
You could try lowering your mouse speed dramatically. If it takes much larger hand movements to move the mouse, your tremors won't affect the position as much. You can use more of an arm swing motion to position the cursor, which might be a lot more effective for you.
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here are just some things i'm thinking of that might help you play with your condition.
be smart about your apm. there are all sorts of things you can do to be effective with a low apm. obviously learn all the hotkeys. hotkey all of your hatcheries to one key. when you select your larva and want to build a lot of one unit, you can actually just hold the key down rather than tapping it a million times (for example, if you wanted to build a bunch of hydralisks, you would hold down H rather than tapping it like 20 times). you say your hotkeying is screwed up, but that will get better with practice. if you see your hotkeys messed up, just take a second to fix them. if you have a queen or larva in your hatchery hotkey, you can just shift+click them out at the bottom of the screen, once you have only what you want in that hotkey, just press control+that hotkey again. you'll get better at it over time.
don't spam click a lot. one click is usually enough. but here's something you could do for when you get into intense micro situations and need to click around a lot in many different directions (such as keeping a drone scout alive). if you have drivers for your mouse, you can bind mousewheelup and/or mousewheeldown to menu (which is right click). that way, instead of tapping the mouse button a lot, you just need to swipe the scroll wheel. just make sure to turn off mouse wheel scrolling in your options.
for your queens, bind them all to one key. when you want to inject larva, select the key. tap backspace to cycle through your hatcheries. then just v+click each one. as the game progresses and you get more bases, you could just build extra hatcheries that will autoproduce more larva instead of having to make more queens to babysit. it won't be as effective and it will be more expensive, but it will give you one less apm intensive thing to worry about.
then, with fights, just focus on positioning learn all the chokes and open spaces on each map. try to force the enemy army through a choke while you stand in an open area for a nice concave. micro isn't too important yet in starcraft 2.
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On September 13 2010 02:55 Jzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 02:42 Bumblebees wrote:On September 13 2010 02:31 Zerksys wrote:
Could you perhaps post a replay or two? I'm having a little trouble understanding exactly what you mean by your epinephrine response doesn't work correctly. The main effect of this is that it causes tremors and a subsequent rapid loss of blood pressure. One recommendation - you're sitting down for a long time while playing SC, so blood pooling in your legs probably lowers your blood pressure even further. Have you tried compression stockings / sitting on your legs while playing?
I do both of these. I also take a vasopressor before playing sc2 to help a bit.
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Thanks a lot so far everyone! I'm getting a lot of ideas to work on. Keep them coming :D This has made my day.
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On September 13 2010 03:15 Sentient wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 02:26 Bumblebees wrote:edit: Actually, you have me thinking here. Most of my APM issue is that I have a lot of difficulty controlling the mouse. It takes me longer than the average person to put the mouse where I want it and click while it's there (clicking a zergling usually takes me 15 or so seconds ). I can, however, type pretty well. I should use this to my advantage and try to make a very keyboard-centric playing style. You could try lowering your mouse speed dramatically. If it takes much larger hand movements to move the mouse, your tremors won't affect the position as much. You can use more of an arm swing motion to position the cursor, which might be a lot more effective for you.
... You are a genius.
I've honestly never thought about changing the sensitivity of my mouse.
Holy nutballs, I feel like a grade-a moron right now. This is the kinda of thing that I should have done years ago.
Man, this could make everything so much better... Also, did I mention I feel like a supreme moron?
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I think you've easily answered your own question. If most of your problem is with the mouse and you have trouble with hotkeys / control groups, I think you could improve greatly. With zerg, make multiple control groups for your army (2-4 groups should work depending on what you feel comfortable with.) This way, you can easily flank which doesn't require large apm. You may want to stay away from infestors since they can be pretty micro-intensive.
I'm not sure what your setup looks like for hotkeys, but I think having all your hatcheries on 4 or 5 (depends on which feels more comfortable, I use 5) and hotkey your queens to 6, 7, 8, 9. To inject with queens, hit 66v then click on the hatch. It would be easier to click the hatch then the minimap. Whenever you want to create more units, just hit 5s and it will select all your larva.
Another option would be to play Terran instead. I think you could get away with an MMM build with minimal micro. I'm a zerg player so I couldn't give advice on how to set up your hotkeys though.
Keep fighting ! It's nice that you're not letting your issue dictate your entire life. Hopefully some of this advice from everyone is able to help you out.
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Honestly I would say you need to switch races, Zerg's macro is the most APM intensive without a doubt. Normally I wouldn't suggest a race change just because you are having trouble, but if really low APM is your issue, I think it would help.
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Man, no offense there, but APM in high levels is required. I mean, you can't stick to 40APM at top tier, because simply if you have all the mental things straight (I mean remembering and repeating what all you should do, micro/macro/scouting/keeping resources low/expanding/etc) it will require certain APM to execute them. And it probably will be more than 40APM.
I know to a certain degree a person can play with low apm, but later it's more difficult. I hope it will work out for you though. If you have troubles with microing, then I guess you have to work more with bigger groups and not micro individual units. Like you probably won't be microing 4lings v 1 zealot with not losing a ling if you can't do it. Focus the energy on what you can do, don't micro individuals, make bigger groups and do tactics with groups (more smaller groups of units) and keep the stuff you can do up (aka macro, for example).
EDIT-
however, this 'handicap' you have will probably limit you to an extent. A guy without leg probably won't become the best worlds sprinter. He can try and have fun though It's just a game. No offense dude. gl hf
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On September 13 2010 03:59 sensenmann wrote:
Honestly I would say you need to switch races, Zerg's macro is the most APM intensive without a doubt. Normally I wouldn't suggest a race change just because you are having trouble, but if really low APM is your issue, I think it would help.
You're making too big a deal out of zerg macro. To be honest, Terran and Protoss macro need more APM. Zerg need to do two things. Inject larvae, and select all hatch, build any unit you want.
I assume nobody has a real problem with the act of building units, so then the main Zerg macro mechanic to be concerned about is injecting larvae, which isn't so much about APM as it is about repetition. As long as you keep it constant, you do not need the fastest hands on the planet to inject larvae.
Thus, the question becomes "what is the easiest way for me to inject larvae?"
1. 55v click, 66v click - This actually is a huge waste of APM. you're performing four actions just to inject once. It's easy for normal players because each queen is separate, and it's the most intuitive, but if you're trying to keep things concise, it's not the way to go.
2. Autocast on the minimap - If you're having trouble selecting a zergling, you might have trouble casting an inject on the smaller hatch block on the minimap.
3. V-Shift-backspace-click - This is so, so good in this case. The hatch is a huge target, you'd be hard pressed to misclick it. You don't need to adjust your mouse position after centering it, and you keep actions to a bare minimum. Taking advantage of keyboard commands to cut down on wasted actions is a huge boon, from what the OP has described about his condition.
The downside is that the screen flashes by incredibly fast, but the complaint was low handspeed, not "Starcraft induces seizures."
The hardest parts of Zerg macro have NOTHING to do with APM. Learning when to power drones. Expanding often. Zerg is the hardest macro race, but it's hard because it requires experience and patience to learn, NOT because you need lightning hands. Hell, it's the easiest race to not supply block yourself, which happens to be the key macro problem most low and mid level T and P have.
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Biggest thing I would suggest is to remain calm and always be thinking what you need to do next instead of getting yourself worked up. Without being a doctor, I am not trying to be rude or offensive, but do your best to use what you can outside of the game as best you can to improve how you perform in game. Just remain calm and when you feel yourself getting worked up, just remember...reeeelaaaaxxxxxx
After some time, your fingers will respond without you thinking and thus, apm will skyrocket. Above all, since APM is difficult for you, make sure each keystroke is worth pushing
Work smart, not hard
Effective APM > Higher APM
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My Suggestion is that you play Terran instead of zerg as they are the easiest to macro with, therefore requiring the lowest apm to do this section.
1. You can hot key all your production on one key and tab through them to macro. As well since you will be looking at all production at once you can see if all of your buildings are producing instead of spamming select larva.
2. You can also miss dropping mules and catch up rather than just losing unit production when missing with a queen. So in your large battles you never have to move your screen off the battle. Just check your production hot key and spam mules after that battle.
3. Although it is not reccomended you can que up units if you have extra money giving you marginally more freedom.
4. Another racial thing is that if you play mostly mech stratagies its more about positioning than micro. Position your tanks and vikings and bunkers well and make your slow push.
I hope this has helped you out a little.
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On September 13 2010 02:26 Bumblebees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 02:21 yesplz wrote:
Hotkey as much as you can. Hotkey your hatcheries together in one and your queens separately(or look up more techniques for injecting larva and see which one fits you best). At least this way you can make units from hatches while looking at your army and then quickly go back to it. Larva will be harder for you though... That is what I currently try to do, but I really mess up hotkeys. I always end up with larva, queens, random buildings in my hotkeys. I'm really working on cleaning this up, but seem to be failing pretty hard. Is that normal for other people? I'm very curious about that. edit: Actually, you have me thinking here. Most of my APM issue is that I have a lot of difficulty controlling the mouse. It takes me longer than the average person to put the mouse where I want it and click while it's there (clicking a zergling usually takes me 15 or so seconds ). I can, however, type pretty well. I should use this to my advantage and try to make a very keyboard-centric playing style.
Get a good mouse, and a really nice, big mousepad. Best investment you can make. Also practice practice practice, but good gear and a low sensitivity is around half of the work.
Turn off mouse acceleration, too.
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On September 13 2010 04:59 BetaFoil wrote:
My Suggestion is that you play Terran instead of zerg as they are the easiest to macro with, therefore requiring the lowest apm to do this section.
This is a bit of a mistake. You assume that because Terran macroing is intuitive, that it costs less effort to do. All wrong.
1. MMM Bio macro - Building out of three types of buildings + all CCs. Reactor barracks, tech lab barracks, and starports. The timing for marauders against marines is slightly off, so you'll either need to queue, which is bad, or you'll be slightly off. Your SCV production speed is way different from marauder production speed, so you'll wind up queueing that too. Starport medivac timing is again different from MM timing, so you'll be spamming or queueing that, too.
The alternative to queueing is spamming hotkeys, which is fine for normal players who don't have a limit on their APM. Keep in mind that at all times, you're going back to your base to drag an SCV around to build a depot. APM will skyrocket, unless you have a medical condition that forces you not to play fast, then you're just boned.
2. Mech - Hotkey spam incoming. Hellions have different timings than thors which have different timings than siege tanks which have different timing than vikings which have different timings than SCVs. You literally cannot play solid mech without keeping an eye on your production buildings at all times. Queueing is obviously not playing well.
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As a player you just need to become more self aware of all the things you need to be doing; such as larvae injections, creep tumors, macro, building new hatcheries, scouting with overlords/lings, all while controlling your army and maintaining your economy/base.
Your apm will naturally increase as you become more proficient at multitasking. But the physical aspect doesn't improve unless the mental aspect does. Starcraft is a mental game, your hands are just along for the ride.
As far as mechanics go, you need to become fluid with using hotkeys for all your units/buildings/upgrades, and using hotkey groups. Through mass gaming these things become habits, that you don't need to think about. You should never be using your mouse, when you can be using your keyboard instead.
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On September 13 2010 05:12 Helmet EU wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 02:26 Bumblebees wrote:On September 13 2010 02:21 yesplz wrote:
Hotkey as much as you can. Hotkey your hatcheries together in one and your queens separately(or look up more techniques for injecting larva and see which one fits you best). At least this way you can make units from hatches while looking at your army and then quickly go back to it. Larva will be harder for you though... That is what I currently try to do, but I really mess up hotkeys. I always end up with larva, queens, random buildings in my hotkeys. I'm really working on cleaning this up, but seem to be failing pretty hard. Is that normal for other people? I'm very curious about that. edit: Actually, you have me thinking here. Most of my APM issue is that I have a lot of difficulty controlling the mouse. It takes me longer than the average person to put the mouse where I want it and click while it's there (clicking a zergling usually takes me 15 or so seconds ). I can, however, type pretty well. I should use this to my advantage and try to make a very keyboard-centric playing style. Get a good mouse, and a really nice, big mousepad. Best investment you can make. Also practice practice practice, but good gear and a low sensitivity is around half of the work. Turn off mouse acceleration, too.
I have a decent mouse and good big pad. I need acceleration on, otherwise playing is almost impossible. The "mouse becomes less sensitive when you slow down" helps the shakiness from the tremors not get in the way as much as when accel is off. I've recently been experimenting without acceleration and it's just not going to work for me
Low sensitivity is definitely something I never considered, and I think that obviously is going to help me a ton.
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On September 13 2010 04:23 Darthturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 03:59 sensenmann wrote:
Honestly I would say you need to switch races, Zerg's macro is the most APM intensive without a doubt. Normally I wouldn't suggest a race change just because you are having trouble, but if really low APM is your issue, I think it would help. 3. V-Shift-backspace-click - This is so, so good in this case. The hatch is a huge target, you'd be hard pressed to misclick it. You don't need to adjust your mouse position after centering it, and you keep actions to a bare minimum. Taking advantage of keyboard commands to cut down on wasted actions is a huge boon, from what the OP has described about his condition.
He'll do it easier if he remaps backspace to capslock
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On September 13 2010 02:30 Bumblebees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 02:25 tackklee wrote:
As many others would say, APM is not everything. This holds especially true in SC2. Macro, economy, unit composition and strategic thinking will definitely trump micro or higher apm any day.
I'd love to believe this, and would readily do so if there was a 1500+ diamond player who averaged 30-40apm. Hell, even 800+ would seriously convince me it's possible. That doesn't mean I don't think I couldn't be the first (triple negative, hooray!). It'd be awesome if there was someone to learn from though
I'm just below 1200 Diamond right now, and just played against a 1.1k toss who averaged 43 apm.
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heh, i'm around 700-800 diamond as zerg, with a APM that only barely hits 50. It can be done, it just means your army confrontations will be a bit less precise. Other than spawn larva, the zerg's macro is actually the most forgiving one: you don't need to be producing non-stop, since larva pile up. You lose a bit of spawn time when the queen's larva pop, but that's a relatively little portion compared to only having your barracks running half the time. Personally, i'm usually doing ok on larva spawning even though i don't hotkey my queens (i really should, i just haven't worked it into my play yet).
One problem remains though: zerg's armies are the least effective ones to just a-move with. It's doable with ling/Bling/roach/hydra/ultra, but against good terrans or protoss you'll die before you've got a good enough force to engage head-on (especially against tanks or colossus+sentry). Both muta's and infestors cost quite a bit of precise movement though and need almost constant attention to really be used effective, which could pose difficulties for someone with your issue.
Still, the matchmaking system works in such a way that you'll be pitted against players that your strategy will work on about 50% of the time, so the main advise i can give you is:
Just keep having fun playing!
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On September 13 2010 07:00 Demus wrote:Other than spawn larva, the zerg's macro is actually the most forgiving one.
Noooo...
Larvae will only pile up to 3 at a non-injected hatch. To get any more than that, you have to use your queens, and to be effective with your queens, you have to stay on top of their energy.
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On September 13 2010 07:10 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:00 Demus wrote:Other than spawn larva, the zerg's macro is actually the most forgiving one. Noooo... Larvae will only pile up to 3 at a non-injected hatch. To get any more than that, you have to use your queens, and to be effective with your queens, you have to stay on top of their energy.
That's exactly what "Other than spawn larva" means.
Zergs can stockpile up to 19 larvae at each hatch. That means, as long as you remember to spawn larvae every 40 seconds, you can technically get away with not building shit while stockpiling money. Not optimal at all, but imagine any other race not building units for three whole minutes. They would be down like 30-40 food with no way to catch back up, sort of building more production structures than they could ordinarily afford.
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stockpiling is handy when you're capped. Otherwise you probably want to use your resources as much as possible. With other races you can at least see how much is left until you can build new unit and queue next unit just before it finishes. With zerg you have to check constantly if there're new larvae. Or with toss you can see how many warpgates are ready..
That brings me to my old idea... I wish there was an icon similar to what warpgates have, just telling you how many larvae in total you have.
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Just wanted to say this;
Gotta love the replies to this thread. I take it as proof that this is a truely amazingly kind and helping community. Also, Good luck with your improvement. For myself, I've learned most things by
1. Playing with a really skilled friend of mine in 2v2
2. Watching loads of Vods, replays and reading forums!
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You deal with low APM the same way progamers do it. Good low apm progamers are good strategically (iloveoov, savior, stork). They understand the game and what they have to do. Therefore, the execution is a little bit easier. Since you already know what you have to do, there's less thinking and more doing.
Play more games and get more experience. Analyze the replays and look for areas to improve. Watch games from the pros to learn strategies.
In BW, I had trouble multi-tasking while pushing out as Terran. This is because you have to lay mines, siege/unsiege, scout for expos, reinforce with vultures, etc so the mineral piles up, macro falls behind and you may get broken by Toss's army. So to adjust for this, I have to make more factories and leave 2 scvs to build depots before I move out. You will need your own adjustments.
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On September 13 2010 07:58 freestalker wrote:
That brings me to my old idea... I wish there was an icon similar to what warpgates have, just telling you how many larvae in total you have.
You know if you put all your hatcheries on one hotkey then click it, it tells you how much larva at each hatchery.
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On September 13 2010 08:00 Touch wrote:
Caffeine. Seriously.
Green tea = tremors so bad I can't play (I do drink it when I get sleep attacks though). Rockstar = hospital. (last 2 times I tried it I ended up staying until I stopped randomly having syncopal episodes)
I am trying to get on provigil though. It seems to be a viable option.
I am pretty glad to see there's other people who manage OK with lower APM though. That makes me hopeful to make it into at least mid-diamond one day.
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Learn all the hotkeys as well as how to queue things up will definitely help. I just got into Plat with around 35ish APM. Control group all your unit production buildings will definitely help, too. One thing I agree is when the game gets long the less your chance of winning because of poor macro. I have major problems winning 40min+ games(I actually lost all of the games that goes beyond 40min).
Take a SCV, press B first then press S and select a position will allow you to make a depot, holding SHIFT and press S then clikc another ground position will queue you up for another depot, then holding SHIFT and left click a mineral or gas. Your SCV will make the second depot after the first one is finished then goes back to mine mineral/gas AUTOMATICALLY after the building tasks are complete.
What I usually do is control group my CC to 0, all rax/fac/port to 9. before I head out for harrass say I'm 35/51, so I take a SCV and queue up 3 depots then heads back for mineral. I can harrass while just click on 0 or 9(you have to press TAB to switch from rax to fac to port then to rax) to make SCVs and units. the SCV keeps making 3 depots which will make my supply max to 75 so I don't have to go back to look at my base until I'm around 70/75. I can use all my concentration on micro managing the units for that span and not fall behing in macra.
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Zerg is the most APM-using race, so if you're going for the most skill/APM pick terran or protoss. And don't go for reaper spam.
Or if you are continuing using Zerg, don't go for mutas :S
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Actually, you have me thinking here. Most of my APM issue is that I have a lot of difficulty controlling the mouse.
Hmm, I think it may help forcing yourself to primarily move the screen using hotkeys. Need to focus on your scout? 11. Your Hatchery, 66. This may help if your mousework isn't great - really try to force yourself to use hotkeys, even if sometimes you'd rather not. It'll likely pay off.
Similarly find which injection technique (minimap, backspace etc) works for you best and practice it. Practice it against the computer whilst attacking, and try to not do it another way, even if it's convenient at the time. Just so it becomes more routine for you..
Other then that, I think you can do well as Zerg without going insane micro. Zerglings (compared to Roaches) and Hydralisks (Mutalisks) are the lower micro units, probably worth investing in those if the situation doesn't call for the other. Just master your macro, your injections, your scouting, and your unit composition (in spite of what I just said) and I'm sure you can continue to improve your game =).
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Hey, I'm new and this is my first post but as to the trouble with the mouse thing I might have a relavant suggestion. My brother-in-law has a condition where he twitches alot, I don't know if thats exactly what the issue is but he has one of those mice with a big ball on a surface. He says its alot easier for him to control. He plays a lot of RTS, though not online. Hope this helps, definately think its cool your playing one of the harder races (from what everyone else says) with this.
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reading this thread makes me happy.
on topic- ive seen topics were people say "my apm is so low with terran", and i think thats because the rotation of tasks is quite easy. there's no creep spreading or overlord positioning. most of the macro is just cycling through your building hotkeys and pumping units till you need to expand/fight/whatever. however i hate the thought of switching from a race you enjoy for any reason!
either way, good luck with it and good to see the commitment!
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On September 13 2010 09:51 Bumblebees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 07:58 freestalker wrote:
That brings me to my old idea... I wish there was an icon similar to what warpgates have, just telling you how many larvae in total you have. You know if you put all your hatcheries on one hotkey then click it, it tells you how much larva at each hatchery.
I do know. and that makes me wonder why toss has it easy mode 
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my suggestion is that you need to try and deny his expansions, so that you have the better economy as you expand so that eventually you can just A-move the opponent and win
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not playing zerg would be most beneficial, zerg easily requires the most apm to be proficient.
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Play protoss and try to remain calm.
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First off all, big respect Bumble.
Not sure if SC2 is the game for you. I think it is the most stressfull game i have ever played but hell if you can make it work, well done!
For the low APM question.
- As stated before zerg is the hardest race apm wise. So my advice would be to play another race.
- Be clean BO wise, you can win or lose most games with the perfect executed BO. Know your exact BO timing and execute them as perfect if your APM let you.
- When in battle, focus on the macro instead of the micro(just leave the battle alone and 1a your army and foxus on getting more stuff). Mirco wil win you the battle, Macro wil win you the war.
- Try to find a 1 base BO (like mentioned before protoss/terran would be better). When you get to 2+ base APM will have a bigger impact.
Overall i am also a very very low APM player around 30-35. I am currently nr1 plat in my division with around 900 points. I could be higher if i sticked to 3WG robo of 4 gates. But i tried the FE builds (to every race) but that builds gives me hard times with my current APM
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T is kinda APM heavy imo when it gets into late games where you are trading bases. It takes the life out of me just trying to rebuild the lost rax/fac/port and add-ons. Getting my mined-out main base razed makes me want to quit even when I still have a bigger army. But at 1-3 bases low APM should not be that big of a disadvantage if you can macro up properly with hotkeys.
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not sure what race you playing, but generally zerg requires a little more APM to play.
Toss and terran you dont need to worry about hatcheries and injecting.
Although there is chrono boost and mules. But i dont think your punished as hard if you miss a few chronos or mules vs queen.
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Wow this thread is really a testimony of this good community and respect to Bumblebees for your commitment!
Personally, I'm an APM minimalist. If I don't have to do it, I won't. Not because I can't but because it's something I picked up long ago and now can't un-learn. Now, not knowing your specific situation it's hard to say so I'm relating this to my own experiences. Maybe you can glean something useful from my ramblings:
For a moment I'd like to look away from the ingame issues. It sounds to me like stress is the greatest influence on your game (and SC2 is without a doubt a very stressful game). I think getting comfortable with the situations at hand could help out a lot. This is something I want to work on for myself - basically to work past the mental block and just know "oh, this situation... okay, do that".
What often happens to me is pressure builds up (say reaper/helion harrass) and I get ever so slightly panicked. Even if I can fight down the panic, it will affect my gameplay to an extent where I'm so out of whack that everything falls apart. The problem is basically: Focusing on multiple things at once. I'd wager a guess this is very much what you suffer from too.
Out of experience I've found I can maybe track 3-4 things at once. More than that and I start forgetting.
I would also say that Zerg is not the most APM intensive race there is. It is however definitly the race that requires you to track the most number of things at once. This in return requires a multitasking ability which I personally think you can learn by repetition. You don't actually have to DO very much. But you do have to remember to spit/creep at the right moments (which is maybe 1-2 clicks per action). This I personally still fail at. But again, I think this is a mental thing and nothing APM related.
It also ties into the stressed/panicked issue though. If your mind gets sidetracked you'll start losing track of your mental counters. So, we're looking for ways to get around APM.
The obvious one which has been stated several times here is moving APM work to mental work i.e. thinking ahead and working out what to do so when it comes around to actually doing it you know just what to do and don't flail around the way I do currently.
Something that just occured to me: Building placement.
I often find myself spending a long time fiddling around to figure out how to best fit a building. Maybe learning some basic building placement scemes (hiding tech, blocking harrass or whatever) could help?
Ofc. large attacks you can also coordinate with a fairly low ammount of APM, generally by working with terrain etc. I play silver so this may not say much but many of my lategame attacks consist of two to three unit groups moved with simple waypoints (zerglings flank, main body of ultras tank etc.). Then add infestor micro (which in your case would probably be asking too much).
I'm guessing even on a smaller scale, 2-3 actions can constitute an effective attack without much on-the-spot micro. I'm finding waypoints very useful for this especially when I need to focus on say base building (which is again - very few actions) but together they just add up.
Guess I'll stop rambling about now. Maybe some of this will be useful.
And I'm glad you found something to occupy your mind with! I've no doubt this is something very important for you so all the best - for the swarm!
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If you play zerg, you should try to do everything to make it easier and require lower APM. Let's see, the biggest offenders are obviously spawn larvae and creep tumor. If you think about it, without those zerg is probably the easiest race as everything is built from the same building, and most of your units don' t have any special abilities and can be just a-moved.
Getting rid of creep tumors is not that difficult. It will hurt you, but not severely. Spawn larvae is more difficult tough. My suggestion is to only use it on the beginning and later just put more hatcheries.
You also need to work on your hotkeys. Don't just randomly assign them during a game, you have to plan them before. Use all your hatcheries on 4 for example, and you can have 123 for your army. Also you should simply not build units that require a lot of attention or micro (mutalisk, infestor). The best strategy for you will most likely be sitting in your base and macroing carefully and at some time doing a timing attack. This playstyle is actually very strong as many people screw their macro even in diamond. As soon as you move to attack, put down like 2 more hatcheries so you can keep macroing easily with just using one hotkey. It will be less efficient than using queens but it may just be more efficient for you.
By playing like this, you will usually have to outsmart your opponent. Try to get as much advantage as possible from correct army composition and tech switching. Also a-moving 10 lings on their expansion and then forgetting about them requires basically no APM but if timed correctly can win you the game.
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Ever think of getting a trackball mouse? They also have a hand-held mini trackball mice. Link here.
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Honestly it just sounds like you should not be too concerned about ranking in 1v1. You MIGHT be able to hit low diamond with only 30-40 apm, but anything from the mid game further and you're gonna get overwhelmed. Lots of people are saying handspeed isn't so important as strategy, and while that's true, there's still only so far you can go if you are physically limited.
I think it'd be best if you did team games.
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On September 13 2010 09:54 Bumblebees wrote:Green tea = tremors so bad I can't play (I do drink it when I get sleep attacks though). Rockstar = hospital. (last 2 times I tried it I ended up staying until I stopped randomly having syncopal episodes) I am trying to get on provigil though. It seems to be a viable option. I am pretty glad to see there's other people who manage OK with lower APM though. That makes me hopeful to make it into at least mid-diamond one day.
Buy and try something called GABA... seriously...
Research and buy it via Google... I'd be REALLY surprised if that didn't help you at least a bit...
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Go look up some advanced breathing techniques, they might help you out a little bit.
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On September 14 2010 07:40 mcbrite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 09:54 Bumblebees wrote:On September 13 2010 08:00 Touch wrote:
Caffeine. Seriously. Green tea = tremors so bad I can't play (I do drink it when I get sleep attacks though). Rockstar = hospital. (last 2 times I tried it I ended up staying until I stopped randomly having syncopal episodes) I am trying to get on provigil though. It seems to be a viable option. I am pretty glad to see there's other people who manage OK with lower APM though. That makes me hopeful to make it into at least mid-diamond one day. Buy and try something called GABA... seriously... Research and buy it via Google... I'd be REALLY surprised if that didn't help you at least a bit...
I've took 2 GABA analogues (pregabilin aka lyrica and gabapentin aka neurontin) and they are pretty bad. You feel like you're stoned to hell 24/7, and your memory is pretty much shot. When I reached peak dosage on pregabalin, I couldn't even walk. Stuff is not cool, and might I add it's very addictive at therapeutic doses. Despite hating how I felt on it, I still get urges to take it months later.
Thank you for the suggestion though
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On September 13 2010 23:31 kme wrote:
If you play zerg, you should try to do everything to make it easier and require lower APM. Let's see, the biggest offenders are obviously spawn larvae and creep tumor. If you think about it, without those zerg is probably the easiest race as everything is built from the same building, and most of your units don' t have any special abilities and can be just a-moved.
Getting rid of creep tumors is not that difficult. It will hurt you, but not severely. Spawn larvae is more difficult tough. My suggestion is to only use it on the beginning and later just put more hatcheries.
You also need to work on your hotkeys. Don't just randomly assign them during a game, you have to plan them before. Use all your hatcheries on 4 for example, and you can have 123 for your army. Also you should simply not build units that require a lot of attention or micro (mutalisk, infestor). The best strategy for you will most likely be sitting in your base and macroing carefully and at some time doing a timing attack. This playstyle is actually very strong as many people screw their macro even in diamond. As soon as you move to attack, put down like 2 more hatcheries so you can keep macroing easily with just using one hotkey. It will be less efficient than using queens but it may just be more efficient for you.
By playing like this, you will usually have to outsmart your opponent. Try to get as much advantage as possible from correct army composition and tech switching. Also a-moving 10 lings on their expansion and then forgetting about them requires basically no APM but if timed correctly can win you the game.
This (along with the lower mouse sensitivity suggestion) has helped me a lot so far.
I played a few games focusing almost purely on 'keyboard centric' macro. Hotkeying all my buildings and queens, and box attacking with units. I feel much more confident and much less overwhelmed now.
In the few games I've played, I've also focused on playing "slower" and subsequently I feel like I'm getting more done. I've had much fewer misclicks, which means redoing things, missing fewer injects and I actually end up with time to scout! WOO!
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My friend has a problem as well where his hand shakes all the time. He doesn't play SC2 but he does play a lot of other games and while they aren't as speed intensive he did drastically improve his game in a couple of ways.
One was to buy a wrist band thing, the kind you might see some athletes sporting... I'm sure there's better ones for PC use but anyway. The elastic in the glove helped dampen the shakes and kept everything a lot straighter and smoother.
He also learnt how to move with his forearm and not his wrist. By moving like this it didn't require his wrist to move at all, everything was done by moving his forearm and keeping the wrist as still as possible. This also allowed him to increase the resistance in his glove to dampen the shakes more as he didn't require the flexibility in the wrist. With the forearm you can get just as much movement with a wrist and with the same speed, it just requires a small mental adjustment. The downside is your arm will get very tired after a couple of games. The upside? You will build muscle ( ) and you stated you don't play a lot of games, so its not really a huge downside :D
Secondly: Turn off "Enhance Pointer Precision" (EPP) if you have it on. Waste of time imo.
Thirdly: I don't know how much this might help you... But try something like http://www.softpedia.com/progDownload/MouseCage-Download-28569.html Its a piece of software thats designed to reduce the mouse shakes. I don't know how well, or even if it will work with SC2 but hey, worth a shot! :D
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I'm having a similar APM problem.
My APM is around 30 and I top out at 45ish. I notice in early game I'm fine but around mid-game there is too much going on.
I was just going to practice against Medium A.I. but I'd rather play against a human opponent.
If you (or anyone else reading this thread) would like a practice partner, I'm CrimsonWall # 407 on the US servers. I work all day so I'm only available after 5pm EST and on the weekends. If we do play I'm no where platinum league so you can easily roll me LOL.
I'm a Zerg player too so I'd be willing to chat and trade tips and strategies.
P.S. I don't think you should worry that Zerg might require higher APM. Just play the race you love and have fun!
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The absolute best way to increase your apm and multitasking is simple; use the multitasking trainer v0.95. If you need help running it send me a pm.
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imo with a disorder that doesnt allow you to go over 30 apm, I really think it can have a massive impact on your gameplay.. However, if you practice strategies and tactics you can probably break into diamond with just game knowledge and strategy alone
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Honestly man roll one up I bet it would help
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I'm 1500 Diamond w/ ~80 apm
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if you love the game, I'm sure everything will work out fine. 30-40 apm doesn't sound like much when you compare it to most people that play this game on a high level, but I'm pretty sure you can get to at least 1k diamond with it if 95% of your actions are useful actions and good decisions. Also, if you are really into the game you probably have pretty massive adrenaline rushes, and those are bad for everyone, especially you with your condition. If I were you, I'd try working on not getting excited while playing, you should see a significant apm boost if you manage to stay calm and collected and it will also be good for your in game performance in the long run, as opposed to having adrenaline rushes and panic attacks.
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I reccomend playing another race. Even if zerg was balanced it is still a very apm heavy race. Also you should switch because zerg has no good way of ending games early since late game requires a lot of apm and multitasking.
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On September 14 2010 16:59 Arcanne wrote:
I'm 1500 Diamond w/ ~80 apm
Again, this guy is around 30 apm. There's a huge, huge difference between 30 and 80 apm.
Yes, we know that SC2 isn't like SC1. We know that you can become pro with <150 apm. WhiteRa hovers just over 100 apm IIRC. But 30 apm is slooooooooow. There's no way you can survive in mid to high diamond with only 30 apm unless you're executing some sort of perfectly immaculate 1 base strategy that has a perfectly tuned individual build order that's optimized for each individual ladder map.
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On September 14 2010 16:59 Arcanne wrote:
I'm 1500 Diamond w/ ~80 apm
What race do you play, and would you be willing to share replays? I'm really curious to see what "lower apm" looks like in action. It's really difficult to find replays of such stuff.
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On September 14 2010 09:23 Bumblebees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 07:40 mcbrite wrote:On September 13 2010 09:54 Bumblebees wrote:On September 13 2010 08:00 Touch wrote:
Caffeine. Seriously. Green tea = tremors so bad I can't play (I do drink it when I get sleep attacks though). Rockstar = hospital. (last 2 times I tried it I ended up staying until I stopped randomly having syncopal episodes) I am trying to get on provigil though. It seems to be a viable option. I am pretty glad to see there's other people who manage OK with lower APM though. That makes me hopeful to make it into at least mid-diamond one day. Buy and try something called GABA... seriously... Research and buy it via Google... I'd be REALLY surprised if that didn't help you at least a bit... I've took 2 GABA analogues (pregabilin aka lyrica and gabapentin aka neurontin) and they are pretty bad. You feel like you're stoned to hell 24/7, and your memory is pretty much shot. When I reached peak dosage on pregabalin, I couldn't even walk. Stuff is not cool, and might I add it's very addictive at therapeutic doses. Despite hating how I felt on it, I still get urges to take it months later. Thank you for the suggestion though
Have you tried a different kind of CNS stimulant besides caffeine? Caffeine is really a terrible representative of stimulants, it works in a different manner than most other ones.
I take Vyvanse myself for ADHD, and I've read up on patients with your condition taking Vyvanse. Vyvanse will keep your blood pressure up for sure, keep away any brain fog, and certainly give you a memory boost. (And again, it doesn't work like caffeine).
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Ok, this is totally a shameless plug, but it's completely on topic and answers your question. Frankly I'm just lazy and don't want to type up a paraphrased answer. Anyway, I write for FTWins.com. I wrote an article last week about APM, what the underlying issue it (not just faster hands), why good players really spam, and how to work on your own APM.
http://www.ftwins.com/ftwins-pro-strategy/starcraft-2-confessions-of-an-apm-spammer/
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Which method are you using for queen injects? I think the backspace method requires less APM than others. alternatively, try some of the 'no queen' strategies floating around, which probably require less APM to execute. Queens are a major part of the reason zerg requires such high APM.
Good luck.
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I just browsed the first dozen or so replies. Well my advice is two-fold. 1.) You suffer from low blood pressure, do you? Is it possible for you to do physical exercise? Maybe some minor work out before you play will raise the BP and keep you steady. 2.) A lot of people stated it and will state it. Work with hotkeys a lot. You say you lack fast mouse movement and efficiency, so take it to your keyboard and learn to have a good keyboard setup.
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On September 15 2010 01:17 EriktheGuy wrote:
Which method are you using for queen injects? I think the backspace method requires less APM than others. alternatively, try some of the 'no queen' strategies floating around, which probably require less APM to execute. Queens are a major part of the reason zerg requires such high APM.
Good luck.
Queens are a vital part of Zerg macro, yes, I'll agree. But using Queens on time isn't the least bit taxing on your APM. It's once every 40 seconds. Hell lets say you have 3 Hatcheries. A good player will line them up so they all happen around the same time. So for me here's what that looks like.
4 twice (my Hatchery hot keys)
Click Queen
V (Spawn Larva)
Click Hatchery
(move the screen)
Click Queen #2
V (Spawn Larva)
Click Hatchery
(move the screen)
Click Queen #3
V (Spawn Larva)
Click Hatchery
That's 13 additional clicks or pushes every 40 seconds. Really not a problem. The real issue is getting that memory of what 40 seconds feels like in-game, and remembering to do this.
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That condition sucks and I'm sorry to hear it, that's a pretty big detriment to RTS ability.
I guess the best strategy would be to prioritize as much as you can to make every action as effective as possible.
- Hotkey everything
-Take slightly wider paths to do minor scouting while moving out
- Focus on macro over micro
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Hi Bumblebees,
would u mind explaining exactly what it is that u are having problems with. Reading ur posts u seem to have no problem with pressing keys fast. Or do u have problems with this? Because that can be solved easily with macros. Hatch injection for example (55v*click* 66v*click*) can be put on a single key or mouse button. This is considered cheating, but in your case its just evening the odds. Also rebinding <caps-locks> to <ctrl> and using it for ur binds helps to reduce finger/hand travel time.
If ur main problem is to get the mouse pointer where u want it to be there is another solution a friend of mine came up with. He suffers from a injury that makes it very hard for him to move his hands quickly, but his fingers aren't affected. He went for a mouse ball and his FPS gaming abilities improved a lot. If u haven't tried this maybe its worth a shot. I have to add, u need to get a very good one since u need high mouse sensitivity to make it work.
Other than that just pick a race with requires the least in fight APM. Since APM usually peaks during battles (macro is not really heavy on APM imho). So, basically an amove-grap-a coffee-and-watch-ur-enemies-get-blown-to-pieces army. Terran armies tend to be very good at that.
Well placed sieged tanks and turrets also make defense pretty comfortable ...
Hotkey preparations also help to be effective at low APM.
1. Grouping 3 drones in a group while u have nothing to do, so sending them to gas is more comfortable.
2. Use patrol path for scout so u don't have to worry about scout-micro
3. Group all of ur drones on 1 group (e.g. '0' ) so pulling them away is pretty easy.
4. Use shift queue for attack drops (Auto dropping)
etc.
I think u get the idea.
gl & hf
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Some other minor things I don't think were mentioned to try:
1. Try using patrol during battles. Patrol past the enemy as they come into view. One of the reasons APM spikes during certain battles are getting your guys to move around your other guys that are in the way, which normally requires right clicking some units over and over. Patrol could help a little if the constant rearranging of units is a hassle. Another related trick is to right click your group of units closer than necessary to the enemy and then pressing "s"top or "a"ttack or "p"atrol when they are in a decent position. Experiment with this because depending on the situation you may want to attack at max range.
2. Scout by shift+right clicking your worker or whatever on the minimap. No extreme need to constantly spam the little guy like you see in a lot of replays. Once your scout is in their base then yeah, you may need to watch him much more closely. Luckily you are going Zerg ATM, so overlord scouting is easier IMO. When appropriate send them to die but go in the direction most obvious per your first scouting worker. e.g. where the pylons were, etc. No need to babysit if you plan on them dying for maximum scouting potential.
3. The easy version of hit and run, hit and run dancing (useful for ranged mostly) is just pick a place semi-far away and right click it, don't move your mouse, hit "s"top at the right time, right click the same spot, rinse + repeat.
4. Search TL's forums for queen larva queueing. It could help.
5. With Zerg, I much prefer 1-3 for most units, 4 for all hatcheries, 5+6+7+8 for future queens. I find 55+v left click hatch the least troublesome way to spawn larva. 9 and 0 for overlords, overseers, or odd units/queens.
6. Check your chair/desk arrangement for ergonomics. I don't know (you probably do...), but it could help reduce shakiness. I recommend elbows resting (mostly) on chair arms, monitor fairly high so you aren't bent over though.
7. I'd check into foot pedals. It could be worth it to assign control or right click or something to a foot pedal. Worth testing anyway. I think this would be more "fair" then keyboard macros for instance.
8. Be glad of the day when video games are 100% mentally activated. Sounds like sci fi but
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/brain-controlled-video-gaming-headset-unveiled,4824.html
9. Take solace in the fact that even if your peripheral nervous system isn't cooperating 100% with your gaming, you likely have a solid gamer's brain. SC2 is a good game for you.
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2010/01/bad-at-video-games-your-brain-structure-may-be-at-fault.ars
10. Use shift + number key to add units to already established control groups. It is actually better and takes less APM in many cases, so use it when it's better.
11. One more lazy worker scout option that actually works great is simply letting him scout their base a little, when you hear under attack click the hotkey for the unit ONCE then right click wherever your screen happens to be. Often he will escape unharmed. You can redirect him to scout again when convenient or if it's too dangerous let him come home or go to a tower.
12. Thinking about it, you should probably go for overlord speed often. That way you can scout and keep your OL's alive more often as the game progresses.
13. Use more overlord creep dropping instead of creep tumors. Combined with speed you should be fine making a highway that way. And efficiency-wise do something like this:
- select a group of 6 overlords. Press hotkey for dropping creep. Right click on minimap to nearest spot, shift click on the wireframe to deselect one OL, right click on minimap to a spot a bit further, shift click wireframe deselect one OL, repeat.
- use that technique to spew creep on open expansions too
- hotkey a few overlords in with your army to auto drop creep when your ground army is running around place to place.
14. Baneling w/ less micro. Always try to get your banelings on another control key from your regular army. Right click or "m"ove click them separately from your army in many cases so they tank damage and explode a bit later. Much easier than trying to select them during a battle on the battlefield. OR, if you do need to select certain units, press your one control group then control+click them on the wireframe. The wireframe isn't moving around crazily like the battlefield units so it's easier to click them.
14.5 Banelings w/ less micro. Burrow them in good spots and turn on the auto unburrow to pop vs marines.
15. Control the towers. Scouting is your friend even more when you aren't going for an early pressure/high APM agressive build.
16. I think it was mentioned, but holding down a key builds units very quickly from a ton of selected larva. More importantly, select your larva at all hatches (4, s) then build the less numerous units first ... say V, DD, HHH, then your filler/mass units Z (hold it down). Very efficient.
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On September 15 2010 02:37 iPoLL wrote:
Hotkey preparations also help to be effective at low APM.
1. Grouping 3 drones in a group while u have nothing to do, so sending them to gas is more comfortable.
2. Use patrol path for scout so u don't have to worry about scout-micro
3. Group all of ur drones on 1 group (e.g. '0' ) so pulling them away is pretty easy.
4. Use shift queue for attack drops (Auto dropping)
etc.
I think u get the idea.
gl & hf
In my quest to use the keyboard more, I've been doing the first 3 since I started this thread. They help IMMENSELY. The 3 drones thing I figured out a couple days ago when I realized why I couldn't do the standard 14gas/14pool with metabolic boost right as the pool finished was because it took me literally 20-30 seconds to get the damn drones to gas. Now I just make a group and add drones early. So I just click 9-gas-c, and they return minerals if needed to the hatchery and go straight to gas. HUGE difference.
I seem to do ok by hitting ctrl-drone to select all my drones. The shift-queue for drops is something I still need to learn. I wish there was a way to do it without having to click the moving overlord. I really wish you could click the unit icon in the group so I didn't have to deal with getting those damn moving units. Surely there's something clever here that I've yet to figure out.
If you have any other ideas like that, please feel free to write more :D
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I've been working on this for about a month now. I've been using suggestions from people as well as using a lot of my spare time to try various things. I feel that I've made a lot of progress and I will expand on the things I've tried and the various successes and failures I've had. Hopefully I can help someone else too :D
I think it's important to note here that I decided to stick with Zerg. I played a lot of games as protoss, but decided I'm just a Zerg guy. Low apm with zerg CAN BE DONE!
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Firstly let's go over the things that I've tried and my specific experience with them.
1. Increasing Hotkey Usage - This simply did not work for me. Every hotkey I added to my repertoire increase the number of mistakes that I made. I ended up having more difficulty with units/buildings in the wrong groups, and it meant having less actions available (see rant near end) to do things that were legitimately important.
I've finally settled with, and accepted that using fewer hotkeys is far superior for those who have limited APM. If you are a normal guy playing SC2, then USE MORE HOTKEYS!! Deal with it, practice, you can do it. If you're having difficulty due to some external factor such as disability or bad equipment then fewer hotkeys is much better once you accept that you don't have to play like everyone else.
My current hotkey setup with zerg is as follows:
1 - Ground Units - I ctrl-click (select all of same units on screen) the unit, then hit shift-1. DONE. 2 Actions.
2 - Air Units - I ctrl-click (select all of same units on screen) the unit, then hit shift-1. DONE. 2 Actions.
3 - Hatcheries - Shift-3. S->D to select [b]all]/b] drones and morph as desired. Backspace to move between hatcheries.
4 - Queens - Shift-4. Shift-V->Backspace to inject.
That's it. Really, that's all. It keeps my hotkeys near my 'normal' keys, so there is no inaccuracy from bouncing my hand all over the keyboard.
I'm sure a lot of people at this point are thinking "ROFL He's just 1a'ing his units like a newb!" Nope. I rarely use the 1 key for any attacking procedures. I use boxing, ctrl-click and the spacebar (more later) heavily. I've noticed that generally I have better micro than people I play.
2. "Know what you should be doing" - This is IMMENSELY helpful!! I can not emphasize how important this is. I used to constantly feel behind, and now I actually find myself with time to spare unless there's some sort of engagement happening. I've come up with a few things that have really helped me a lot to achieve this:
- Talk outloud. Yep, you're going to look and sound like some whacked out tea party whacko, but you are going to play a lot better. I just came up with a 'mantra' that I repeated for about 10 games that I just chanted to myself over and over and over and over and over and over. The 3 things every zerg player has difficulty with, "Overlords, Inject, Drones". Not just chanting them, but every time I said it, I CHECKED IT. Dare I say, but I've not been supply blocked and I'm _always_ ahead in workers now. My last 8 games I've not had a queen above 30 energy once, and I'm well past the mantra stage. It really works.
- Make a checklist. Write down everything you need to do, down to the most mind-numbing details. This means you have to pick a strategy and stick with it, but since nearly every good player is going to tell you to do that anyways, consider it a bonus. How many drones at X supply? Build overlords at 15, 21, 28, X, X supply. Expand at X minutes or X supply. Get X upgrade when X happens. WRITE ALL OF IT DOWN. I find that basing things off in game actions works better than supply or time for most things except overlords. When I have 10 lings, make roach warren. I don't feel like I played better once I started doing this, but I felt a lot better about my play. Every time I did something I constantly felt like I accomplished something in contrast to before always having felt like I was trying to catchup to myself.
- Know what you should be doing. Redundant and repetitive, I know. I mean knowing really basic strategy things to concern myself with when I wasn't macroing. Things I could do without touching my keyboard or mouse. Scout, control space, transition unit composition, upgrade paths, etc… I am in the habit now of at every :00 on the gametime clock, looking above my monitor at the wall for a second. There's nothing on my wall. I just take time to not be in the game. When I consciously thought about what I need to be doing before the game, the appropriate thing always popped into my head when I just took a second to not be playing the game. This made me feel like my apm doubled, because when I started doing stuff in game again I felt like what I was doing was effective.
3. Remain Calm - It really sounds so simple, but we all know it's not. This was perhaps specifically something I needed to focus on due to my condition. I'm still working on this One thing that has helped me a lot is encountering a situation and thinking "Ok, what am I going to do about it NOW". I know a lot of people, including myself, tend to have the very bad mindset of encountering a situation and thinking "What could I have done about it?". Us humans only live in the present, and SC2 doesn't let you go back in time to fix stuff. Much easier to remain calm when you're focused on right now. Zen.
4. Switch races - Yeah, it was a good idea when I thought that Zerg needed a ton of APM. Unfortunately I think everyone who's decided this is completely dead wrong. I enjoyed working on protoss and terran, but very simply and mechanically they require more APM to play at the bare minimum level of competence.
Terran and Protoss require making more structures than Zerg. This means more managing of the camera (ugh!), more time hotkeying buildings, more management of multiple hotkeys. Zerg can have all their unit producing structures on one hotkey and still work very effectively.
Terran and Protoss have more units. Not only do they have more units, but more specific micro-actions for different units. The basic Terran army, marines and marauders, require management of stim and marauder kiting. Lots of apm to be done effectively. The basic Protoss army, zealots and stalkers, have blink micro, charge micro and kiting. Zerg specific micro actions such as ling surround and magic box require two actions at most. Kiting is relatively rare for zerg compared to Terran/Protoss who have to be effective with it starting with their first produced units.
Terran and Protoss both have more spellcasting units and more units with manual actions. Terran has a independent differing manual action on every unit sans reaper/helion, and 2 units with important casting abilities. Protoss has manual action on every unit sans DT/immortal/colossus, one important caster and the very micro intensive void ray. Zerg has the rarely used burrow, rarely used overseers and infestors.
Zerg does have to spawn larva, but Terran has mule/supply drop/scan and Protoss has chrono boost. Zerg also does not have to manually place pylons/supply depots, which for me is a big deal. Zerg does have creep micro which is a pretty big deal when dealing with limited APM. I am currently working on ways to deal with this. It's my main focus right now.
I'm sure there are people who disagree with me, but I feel my opinion is fairly well founded. I certainly can be convinced otherwise.
5. Hardware changes - I tried changing mice, and that didn't work. Lower sensitivity did help a lot. Setting the OS to have 1:1 mouse tracking helped tremendously alongside lower mouse sensitivity. With windows that meant using CPL mouse fix, and in OS X you can use mouse prefpane set to -1 or USB Overdrive with Acceleration check ON and set to the lowest setting. I have tested both of these with a rig I made to constrain mouse movement. I'm 100% certainly of the 1:1 tracking,
I have been using an Apple Magic Trackpad for playing as well. I have the OS (OS X is where I usually play) setup for 1:1 tracking. 1" of movement on the trackpad is always 5.1" of movement on my screen. It's making a pretty major difference since any tremors do not transfer as easily to my pointing finger as they do to my hand holding a mouse on a slippery surface.
I do strongly urge people to experiment with trackpads, large trackpads if you can. Properly setup they can be used quite well for gaming, but you can't just sit down and expect everything to work the way you're used to. It's not what you're used to :D
6. Practice your BOs - A few people have suggested just practicing BO. That has helped me a good bit. I think it's pretty common sense and not particular to this discussion, but it is worth mentioning. It's an excellent suggestion for anyone no matter what their issue is.
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There are some things that I've discovered which help a lot that weren't spawned specifically by suggestions given.
1. You can select all your workers, or box a few workers and build. Only one worker will respond to the action! That means no more trying to click a worker to send him to do something. I can build 5 spine crawlers in 6 actions. Box->BCx5. #@%* amazing! That also means when I maynard I can select the workers to maynard, then hit B->E and make 2 extractors. They'll be there ready for me when I get back to it, and all the other drones will be mining.
2. Patrol is awesome. Anytime I have units that aren't doing something I put them on patrol. No more being kited by a scout because you're not paying attention. Units are more reactive to incoming pressure, which tends to mean you lose fewer units to the "one at a time"-syndrome that a ball of units has when approached unattended. Obviously paying attention is the best solution, but if we can reduce the severity of the consequences of our mistakes, then why not!?
3. SPACEBAR!!!!!!!!!!!! It's awesome. Lost your track of thought? Hit the spacebar. Units under attack? Hit the spacebar. Actions to spare? Hit the spacebar. It's amazing. Just hit the thing every chance you get. I can not even begin to explain how much more I am aware of in game just because I've gotten into the habit of hitting the spacebar all the time. It's also super awesome when you're being overlord harassed.
4. Upgrades are great when you're behind. There are still lots of times when I get behind simply because I can't move fast enough. What better way to spend a single action than to make a bunch of your units better? Awesome way to use extra gas too, and always a great way to make sure you're money is being used wisely if you get supply blocked.
5. It's totally OK to lose a game. You're going to spend 50% of your time playing SC2 losing. If you don't learn to get something out of losing then you spent $30 too much.
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I'd like to have a small rant here too. WAY too many gamers focus on increasing their APM rather than increasing their efficiency. We all have an APM that we hover around at 90% of the time. It's far more effective to increase the efficiency of your current abilities than to try and increase your abilities. It's been demonstrated many times (almost every 10th day[9] daily) that you can macro effectively on one base just using your mouse. That's about 20-25 APM. That's assuming you ONLY do actions that are completely necessary. If you can sustain a sentient 200apm, wouldn't you be elated to have 175 apm to do nothing but micro? You could control a maxed 2 base army one unit at a time with a legitimate (not-spamming) 175 APM.
I think every gamer would be greatly benefited by focusing on decreasing their APM as much as possible without harming their gameplay. Only by knowing your bare minimum requirement do you know what excess you have to utilize. Not only that, but achieving the bare minimum APM means that you will have to be extremely conscientious of the actions you make which will invariably lead to better mechanics, smoother BO execution and a more complete knowledge of the game state.
Any culture that prides itself on excess will be trailing a culture that prides itself on efficiency. We should all be trying to be better, not "more".
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I thank everyone who's participated in this thread. I will likely update again in the future with any advancements I've made. I'd love to discuss anything I've written in this post as well. I'm very open to learning and experimenting. If anyone is particularly helped by anything here, please let me know :D
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Yes this thread definitely made me re-evaluate how I am using my apm. Bumblebees it sound like you are pretty talented (not sarcastic);
what's your online name/code? I don't play too often ( I am pretty decent) but I would be down to practice some 1 on 1s with you when we are online (I play terran)
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On September 13 2010 02:26 Bumblebees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 02:21 yesplz wrote:
Hotkey as much as you can. Hotkey your hatcheries together in one and your queens separately(or look up more techniques for injecting larva and see which one fits you best). At least this way you can make units from hatches while looking at your army and then quickly go back to it. Larva will be harder for you though... That is what I currently try to do, but I really mess up hotkeys. I always end up with larva, queens, random buildings in my hotkeys. I'm really working on cleaning this up, but seem to be failing pretty hard. Is that normal for other people? I'm very curious about that. edit: Actually, you have me thinking here. Most of my APM issue is that I have a lot of difficulty controlling the mouse. It takes me longer than the average person to put the mouse where I want it and click while it's there (clicking a zergling usually takes me 15 or so seconds ). I can, however, type pretty well. I should use this to my advantage and try to make a very keyboard-centric playing style.
Try to get a large mousepad and set your sensitivity to extremely low. If you have problems with precise movements, having the sensitivity so low that the slight inaccuracies don't really matter should be a good step forward. Of course this isn't good if you want to become a top top player, but I guess that that's not really your goal in the first place. IMO this should really help, since you can make more sweeping motions that should be easier.
Another thing is yeah, use hotkeys for everything you can. Also try to only make a-move style units that can perform well with minimal micro and try to use caster-less unit compositions. Good luck !
EDIT: I think that Zerg would be a really poor choice for you. mostly because of the Queen mechanics. I really would suggest you to try another race, but if you really like Zerg, well... it's going to be rough.
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On October 08 2010 16:31 Shikyo wrote:
EDIT: I think that Zerg would be a really poor choice for you. mostly because of the Queen mechanics. I really would suggest you to try another race, but if you really like Zerg, well... it's going to be rough.
He explains why he thinks zerg is actually easier for him in his update post.
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I don't know why but playing badly and a-moving most of the game I still hit 100+apm in replays when I swear I hover around 30apm away from battle, 60 in battle.
It's like they just multiply your APM by 3 or something.
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I'm glad to see that bumblebee is enjoying himself, and I wouldn't count you out. From the description of your condition, I wouldn't be surprised to see you improve greatly as you calm down. When I first started playing my hands would shake, but now I can play a dozen games in a row and my heart rate never increases. I would bet you are still in that beginning stage where things are hard.
Beyond that, question whether you should commit to zerg. Terran seems like it would be the best race for you. It doesn't have many targetting requirements like psi storm and fungal growth. Also the ability to do well on fewer bases will give you some breathing space, and mule is just easier than dealing with microing around to find queens to inject with on a regular basis.
Regardless I think you'll improve gradually if you play a few hundred more games. If you can get to 60 apm, that is all you really need to do fairly well.
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Just practise solely on your apm, Play a couple of games where you try to only focus on apm.
Find a couple of habbits that you find work faster with hotkeys and thats pretty much how I practise mine (not that i do it so often)
But APM is not that important as it was in SC:BW or WC3 so just play the way you feel like.
Best of luck
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On September 13 2010 02:30 Bumblebees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 02:25 tackklee wrote:
As many others would say, APM is not everything. This holds especially true in SC2. Macro, economy, unit composition and strategic thinking will definitely trump micro or higher apm any day.
I'd love to believe this, and would readily do so if there was a 1500+ diamond player who averaged 30-40apm. Hell, even 800+ would seriously convince me it's possible. That doesn't mean I don't think I couldn't be the first (triple negative, hooray!). It'd be awesome if there was someone to learn from though
If you check out the VODs from the GSL, you'll notice Artosis talk about this in reference to the zerg player CheckPrime. His APM is only in the low 100s for most of the game (which for a pro player in Korea is almost blashpemy), but he uses outstanding strategy to win. In some games (like his match vs HopeTorture) he was dominated by players who could both play great macro and micro at the high levels, as having the ability to control both at that high APM is crucial (assuming your apm is actually ACTIONS PER MINUTE and not spam per minute). That is the top level of starcraft2. Since 95% of StarCraft 2 players aren't that good, you will not be required to play at that level either, so keep your mantra going and stay on top of the important stuff!
Glad to see you're enjoying yourself and finding the game easier! You may want to try working one more hotkey into your repertoire, as it will drastically help you the more comfortable you get. (for example, 1 ss ground units, 2 is air, 3 is hard counter) There's nothing worse than losing half your army needlessly when all you really wanted to have at the engagement were hydras/roach/speedlings/etc- but you sent your uber expensive infestors to their death by accident.
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Just wanted to say first of all that I doubt I have anything to tell you about mechanics, I think you're way ahead of me. In fact I'm going to try to work on some of the things you mentioned in your summary thread. The only things I would suggest you look into are:
1) Standing desks. Not sure if this is better or worse with your condition, but if you have problems with low BP, maybe getting a standing desk (or better yet, an electronically adjustable desk that moves up or down, allowing you to easily switch between sitting and standing) may help.
2) Meditation. Sounds like taking control of your fight or flight response is going to be extremely important to you in life and in SC2. Nothing helps with this like meditation, as it trains you to just notice what is going on around you without reacting to it. It decouples automatic reactions (like fight or flight) from stimuli (like oh shit he's killing my workers with mutas, or oh shit that asshole cut me off in traffic and I almost hit him). It takes a LONG TIME for this to happen but I think it's very worthwhile. PM me if you want suggestions on where to start.
-DW
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On October 08 2010 23:15 Durp wrote:
Glad to see you're enjoying yourself and finding the game easier! You may want to try working one more hotkey into your repertoire, as it will drastically help you the more comfortable you get. (for example, 1 ss ground units, 2 is air, 3 is hard counter) There's nothing worse than losing half your army needlessly when all you really wanted to have at the engagement were hydras/roach/speedlings/etc- but you sent your uber expensive infestors to their death by accident.
I am going to work in another hotkey soon. My issues is that ctrl-5 or shift-5 are difficult for my to hit accurately. It's really a drastic difference between 4 and 5 on the keyboard for me. I'm stilling trying to figure this out while just practicing regardless.
I think if I used infestors more there'd be no way to get by with just 4 hotkeys unless/until there's a way to manage hatcherys and queens on a single hotkey.
Hmmm, queens and hatches on a single hotkey. Time to experiment!
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On September 13 2010 02:37 Darthturtle wrote:
As long as you keep injecting larvae as much as possible, you can play diamond quality zerg with very low APM.
Handspeed is nothing in this game, compared to knowing what you should be doing. With experience, your APM can(and should) actually decrease a little because you're no longer fumbling around all over the place trying to get your macro right. Being streamlined might make it seem like you're playing slowly, but efficiency matters, a lot.
You're much less likely to drop the ball when you've got practiced motions and can devote more attention to non-APM tasks, like scouting, strategizing, and watching the minimap.
This
The quality of your decisions as well as finding the best and most appropriate hotkeys will reduce the amount of apm you need to perform tasks. It will also make you a better player.
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On October 09 2010 03:18 darkwing.Huzow wrote:
Just wanted to say first of all that I doubt I have anything to tell you about mechanics, I think you're way ahead of me. In fact I'm going to try to work on some of the things you mentioned in your summary thread. The only things I would suggest you look into are:
1) Standing desks. Not sure if this is better or worse with your condition, but if you have problems with low BP, maybe getting a standing desk (or better yet, an electronically adjustable desk that moves up or down, allowing you to easily switch between sitting and standing) may help.
Standing is the enemy, and even more so changing postures. The disorder causes chronic orthostatic intolerance.
I think it's a good idea for other people to try though. Good posture is much easier when standing, as is dealing with the various emotions that occur during a game. Sitting is just a very difficult place to be when you're trying to cope with a very dynamic and emotional environment.
2) Meditation. Sounds like taking control of your fight or flight response is going to be extremely important to you in life and in SC2. Nothing helps with this like meditation, as it trains you to just notice what is going on around you without reacting to it. It decouples automatic reactions (like fight or flight) from stimuli (like oh shit he's killing my workers with mutas, or oh shit that asshole cut me off in traffic and I almost hit him). It takes a LONG TIME for this to happen but I think it's very worthwhile. PM me if you want suggestions on where to start.
-DW
I've been working on this (see #3 in http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=152320¤tpage=5#86). I've been studying various forms of meditation on and off for years, but recently I've began studying specific forms of zen philosophy.
I'll probably be adding some info on my experiences in another update. I'll probably PM you to see what your view is on the subject
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select the queens, press v, target a hatch via minimap
dont bother looking there
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I'm glad that everything is turning out ok for you, since it was obvious how much you liked playing SC2. I'm especially pleased to see you sticking it out with Zerg
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Didnt read all this, so it may already have been mentioned. Honestly though, based on your disorder, i would say just work on trying to calm yourself down during stressful situations.. so when those moments do come, you can react in a calm and orderly fashion and your AMP's wont be much of an issue.
Hell, im like 750 points into diamond league and my average apm's are like 40.
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Work on making the APM you DO have -EFFECTIVE-
Your APM will probably naturally go up through this anyway.
Use your hotkeys, they can SAVE you a lot of APM - it's a lot easier to press 4,4 than to click on the minimap where your hatchery is, then click on the hatchery. Don't be afraid to make some of your hotkeys redundant - hotkeying your queens 456 and your hatches 7890 - it's unlikely you're going to use all of them anyway. I realized the korean pros who do this were on to something - it's al ot less annoying if you accidentally hit the wrong key or hotkey over something because you pressed ctrl+4 instead of just 4.
With army too, redundancy can be useful. All mutas + lings on 1, mutas on 2, lings on 3 is what I like to do as zerg for example.
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On September 13 2010 02:30 Bumblebees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 02:25 tackklee wrote:
As many others would say, APM is not everything. This holds especially true in SC2. Macro, economy, unit composition and strategic thinking will definitely trump micro or higher apm any day.
I'd love to believe this, and would readily do so if there was a 1500+ diamond player who averaged 30-40apm. Hell, even 800+ would seriously convince me it's possible. That doesn't mean I don't think I couldn't be the first (triple negative, hooray!). It'd be awesome if there was someone to learn from though
FYI, I am a 1200 Diamond Protoss and my average APM is about 45.
I agree 100% with the eprson who said hand speed is not as important as knowing what you should be doing. Anyone can run a probe around someones base, it does not take speed. Can you run a probe around someones base while at the same time thinking what the next building you are going to build is? That is what allows you to be efficient without being fast.
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Major kudos to Bumblebees. I'm glad that lowering your mouse sensitivity helped. It's always great to see people fighting their circumstances and marching on regardless. 
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From playing a couple months now i think its rather trying to be more proactive in the game than to spam whenever you can. I guess alot of pros do it to warm up and stuff but ive improved my APM by just trying to focus on doing more important things macro/micro wise throughout the game. Scouting, building more buildings, expanding, hit and runs etc. By watching your own replays and seeing where you can improve and just focusing on that. The more things you do the higher your apm will become in a more effective way.
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I know how its like when trying to have fun in a competitive game while being at a disadvantage... Strategy is key! As many people have stated, practicing routines and hot keys will make huge differences. Also eat cheese (Seriously, cheese helps your brain generate chemicals which make you happy (Seratonin is it?), and having more abundance of it will cause your body to adapt). Consult your doctor and ask him about it (Wouldn't want you to go into a seizure from happy overdose or something =/)).
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Honestly guys...FruitDealer himself has like 200apm...so in SC2 you don't need to pull a by.hero and 500apm it up. Just look around the map frequently, check your resource stockpiles frequently, and always look at the minimap. That's all it takes IMO.
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On September 13 2010 02:46 Kwaa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 02:25 sourbiscuits wrote:Almost all units pretty much are a-movable except for HT, pheonix and sentries. Unfortunatly you won't be able to beat a a-moving Terran, unless you've got a far supperior army.
Am I misunderstanding you or are you saying Terran only requires a-moving? Because especially during battles my apm averages over 300.. and average overall game my apm is 100+ o.O
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On October 12 2010 19:44 izoli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 02:46 Kwaa wrote:On September 13 2010 02:25 sourbiscuits wrote:Almost all units pretty much are a-movable except for HT, pheonix and sentries. Unfortunatly you won't be able to beat a a-moving Terran, unless you've got a far supperior army. Am I misunderstanding you or are you saying Terran only requires a-moving? Because especially during battles my apm averages over 300.. and average overall game my apm is 100+ o.O
He's just trolling and complaining about Terran being OverPowered. Ignore him.
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I watched a replay from a zerg player, I think his name was Darkforce? He did a cute little hotkey trick where he had his queens and all his hatches bound to one key. Then when he hit that key he cound inject larva by clicking the hatch in the bototm centre panel, instead of the minimap.
Not sure if this makes much difference to the pros since they can probably click any pixel they want instantly any time, but for a normal humans it's a lot easier to click the hatch in the panel (large area to click) than to click the minimap (small area -- and on large maps it's even smaller).
Just one little tip that might help ...
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You could make a starcraft keyboard. As in pull out all the unused keys. This might help with "fat fingering" of keys.
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Just an update for this interested in the 'saga', or perhaps just in the efficacy of my statements in progress:
I'm 1300 diamond now (recently promoted). Sc2 gears has me averaging around 25 apm after discounting the first 90 seconds (where I do spam hotkeys, and by spam I mean about 75-80 apm lol)
I've worked all the way from bronze, having never played the beta and only playing UMS in BW.
I'll be making another 'update' post with things I've learned sometime tomorrow, as I feel I've made some very major leaps in the last 2 weeks that are worth writing about.
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mods, if there's any issue with me 'updating' the thread like this, please let me know and I'll gladly cease. I'm primarily updating the thread because I receive fairly frequent PMs here and on reddit with advice and "how's it going" messages. I sorta wish there was a way to post without bumping the thread
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I really liked Day[9]'s suggest of minesweeper. He just mentioned it in passing once, and I went, "Oh yeah, minesweeper is a game that's entirely about mouse speed and accuracy once you're good enough to remember just a few simple things. Mouse speed, accuracy, and a few simple things to remember... that kind of sounds like starcraft!"
So, I started playing minesweeper again, got my intermediate time back into the 40s, and my starcraft APM rose 10 apm as zerg, and 20-30 as protoss and terran.
This doesn't necessarily mean I got better mind you. I am only a silver leaguer after going 3-2 in my placement matches after all, but if you're really worried about APM and think you might enjoy minesweeper, give it a shot. They've even got new versions now that won't spawn any unsolvable minefields!
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I'm currently a Terran, 1500 Diamond in SEA server (1300 NA so far). When I was a couple hundred points lower, my APM averaged 40-50 a game. However, with practice, I've been able to push my APM further up 10-15 points, which I feel has actually made me a better player. However, bear in mind that this is my avg APM, mine can spike to 100+ during key points of the game.
But to the OP: yes, it's possible to hit the Diamond league with lowish APM. How I cope is to play timing based attacks and to predict what my opponent is doing.
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If you're having trouble microing those queens effectively, then there might be a radical alternative you haven't considered.
A few weeks ago, Day9 did a Funday Monday series where Zerg players were not allowed to get any queens. It actually worked out better than many people expected because they would wind up getting another hatchery, and it allowed for some new builds.
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4149200/
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On October 21 2010 03:04 Azzur wrote:
I'm currently a Terran, 1500 Diamond in SEA server (1300 NA so far). When I was a couple hundred points lower, my APM averaged 40-50 a game. However, with practice, I've been able to push my APM further up 10-15 points, which I feel has actually made me a better player. However, bear in mind that this is my avg APM, mine can spike to 100+ during key points of the game.
But to the OP: yes, it's possible to hit the Diamond league with lowish APM. How I cope is to play timing based attacks and to predict what my opponent is doing.
I'm the OP and I'm 1300 diamond now, and my APM has actually gone down. I'm averaging 25 or so now.
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On October 13 2010 07:04 ziggurat wrote:
I watched a replay from a zerg player, I think his name was Darkforce? He did a cute little hotkey trick where he had his queens and all his hatches bound to one key. Then when he hit that key he cound inject larva by clicking the hatch in the bototm centre panel, instead of the minimap.
Not sure if this makes much difference to the pros since they can probably click any pixel they want instantly any time, but for a normal humans it's a lot easier to click the hatch in the panel (large area to click) than to click the minimap (small area -- and on large maps it's even smaller).
Just one little tip that might help ...
Unfortunately, this one was patched out quite a while ago. You in fact used to be able to chrono boost through the same method. My macro has never quite recovered from losing this lol :[
Also, congratulations to the OP, I like seeing the update and that you are making progress (in terms of skill advancement).
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This is a really interesting thread: your disorder really forces you to focus on effective actions, rather than spamming actions quickly (and hoping a few productive ones come out of it). I think your experience is something we can all benefit from, because it reinforces the notion that effective apm, and game-sense, is more important than simply having fast (yet inefficient) hands.
One thing i can recommend, that I don't think has been brought up yet, is that you get a mouse with thumb buttons (at least 2). You mentioned having a big problem using the control key to manage hotkeys, and it's many other useful functions (like ctrl+f1 selects all your idle workers, a great way to start the game). Ctrl=f1 is nearly impossible to hit with one hand, but with ctrl mapped to one of my thumb buttons it's easy, and making hotkeys is incredibly easy (hold thumb button, hit # key...to select just release thumb button). This one change improved my control (and comfort) immensely...with it setting up, and changing hot-keys, is a breeze. For example, I now hotkey my creep tumors so I can quickly spread creep...I can then hotkey the next set while they're building so I'm always on the forward most ones, now that it's so easy to change the group (if you add this into your queen rotation you'll be amazed at how fast you can get 2-4 tumors across the map).
The reason I recommend 2 buttons is so that you can use the other one for shift commands: sure, shift clicking is not a problem, but did you know you can use shift+# (with units selected) to add a group of units to an already established ctrl group? It's slightly less critical, but great for quickly reinforcing. Two buttons is especially useful for ctrl+shift commands, like ctrl+shift+lc which removes all units of that type from a control group (in case you have some stray drones, or want to split your army), and ctrl+shift+f which centers your view on and follows whatever you have selected (rather than having the camera free move). This is great for managing multiple armies, in your case, since you can easily issue move and attack orders without moving the screen or mouse very much; though you'll probably want to turn it off and on (which you can do easily with the thumb buttons) it may allow you to micro and kite more effectively (marauder kite, for example, is as easy as alternating lc and a+lc once your mouse is positioned behind them). Moving two armies is simply a matter of switching between them, no matter how far apart, and clicking in the direction you want them to move (you can do the same with double clicking the hotkey, but it won't stay centered).
I use a Razor Death Adder, which is around $50: I know you mentioned trying a mouse before, but this is not for sensitivity reasons. The thumb buttons are well placed, and respond to an upward grip, rather than a press (so don't worry about accidentally hitting them). It's very easy to hit one or both buttons at a time, without misclicking. Alternately, Razor has the Naga, which has 12 thumb buttons laid out in a grid: that may sound excessive, but with those extra keys you can quickly use things like the f2-f8 buttons which save camera positions on the map (which eliminates a lot of scrolling, even if you're just going over to the mini map) or map the attack key to a thumb button for easier control. The other advantage to this, is that if you end up playing an mmo (or some other genre that requires a lot of different buttons) the Naga is excellent: you can then keep your keyboard hand in a comfortable position. That said, if you think you might be accidentally hitting buttons, 2 is more than enough.
It seems like you're doing much better (a lot better than me, but then I watch sc2 far more than I play it :-P), and I think effective micro is going to become increasingly necessary to continue. Again, I can't recommend a programmable mouse enough: the thumb buttons are HUGE since you can't compensate by having fast/dexterous hands. It makes the critical key combinations a breeze to pull off, and I think it will really open up your game (like making it efficient to hotkey creep tumors and add them to your rotation). It's also easy, at least with my mouse, to switch between different layouts for different games (or general use).
Finding those key combinations in the first place is also huge, because you can't utilize what you don't know. I've listed a few, but there are certainly more: some threads I found useful:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/832173254?page=1
http://faqs.ign.com/articles/110/1109259p1.html
It's hard to find anything comprehensive, so it's easy to miss some of those really good (less obvious) ones; if you find anything better do link them. The one other thing I'd mention is being able to map-scroll by holding down the middle mouse button: you can leave side scroll on a slow speed and turn the button scroll up. That way you can vary your scroll speed on the fly, keeping the accuracy but upping the speed when you need it. And since you have issues moving the mouse all over the screen, you can keep the mouse centered and still scroll the screen with the mouse.
As, a side note, I've definitely found Zerg less micro intensive as well, it simply requires more preparation. You don't have to organize multiple unit producing structures, you can have 1 hotkey for your hatcheries and have access to every unit: yes, you have to stay on top of your queen injections, but that's less a micro issue than it is an awareness one (which is why talking to yourself is so effective as zerg :-P). The units are also more focused on good positioning than micro tricks. Best of luck moving up the ladder.
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I was going to post an update thread today, but I've decided to spend most of the day writing a guide to playing with constricted APM, or using your current APM more effectively.
I'll update the main post in this thread with a link once I'm finished.
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On October 22 2010 00:01 Bumblebees wrote:
I was going to post an update thread today, but I've decided to spend most of the day writing a guide to playing with constricted APM, or using your current APM more effectively.
I'll update the main post in this thread with a link once I'm finished.
have you tried wearing compression gloves/stockings? It should increase your BP. I'm going to assume you are already medicated. All of these might be able to delay the onset of your symptoms. It could allow you to increase your APM cap. I'm really impressed that you were able to get to 1300 diamond with 25-30 apm. Great Job! keep it up.
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Just want to add that I'm a 1300 diamond toss and my APM is somewhere ~20-30. Haven't checked it in a while but I doubt its much higher.
If you think strategically and don't slip on your macro (besides during battles) you will do fine in diamond. You're not going to win tournaments but you can certainly get to a decent rank.
I recommend playing Protoss and stearing towards the Collosi path (away from High Templars) and you will do just fine
<edit> Sorry I missed your update. Good job sticking it out with Zerg, which is certainly the more APM intensive race!
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On October 22 2010 00:33 Benshin88 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 00:01 Bumblebees wrote:
I was going to post an update thread today, but I've decided to spend most of the day writing a guide to playing with constricted APM, or using your current APM more effectively.
I'll update the main post in this thread with a link once I'm finished. have you tried wearing compression gloves/stockings? It should increase your BP. I'm going to assume you are already medicated. All of these might be able to delay the onset of your symptoms. It could allow you to increase your APM cap. I'm really impressed that you were able to get to 1300 diamond with 25-30 apm. Great Job! keep it up.
I've tried compression stockings, but they are prohibitively expensive. I am a big guy (6'6"/198cm) and I have quite large feet and legs. To get the correct compression I have to have the stockings custom made.
I've found that simply crossing my legs in various weird ways when I sit, as has been my habit most of my life, is just as effective as compression stockings.
Thank you for the suggestion
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If its not lack of practice that limits your apm then micro intensive builds are going to be very hard for you.
Try to become perfect at the macro game b/c more often then not having more stuff wins even if its just attack move
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On September 13 2010 02:38 tackklee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 02:30 Bumblebees wrote:On September 13 2010 02:25 tackklee wrote:
As many others would say, APM is not everything. This holds especially true in SC2. Macro, economy, unit composition and strategic thinking will definitely trump micro or higher apm any day.
I'd love to believe this, and would readily do so if there was a 1500+ diamond player who averaged 30-40apm. Hell, even 800+ would seriously convince me it's possible. That doesn't mean I don't think I couldn't be the first (triple negative, hooray!). It'd be awesome if there was someone to learn from though Well, a 1500+ diamond player will definitely not be at 30-40 apm. But there are quite a few out there that are 800+ diamond with that low apm. I know this first hand because when I watch my replays and check out the opponents apm I see it all the time.
This is absolutely incorrect. Please, don't tell people what is or isn't possible if you don't know. I'm a 1400 (w/ 120 bonus pool) Random Diamond player and my APM average for each race is:
Z = ~80
T = ~40-45
P = ~40-45
@Bumblebees: Don't be discouraged by people telling you it isn't possible! They either don't know or haven't tried. I'm sure if I made an effort I could drop my Terran average APM to 30-35 easily and still win in ~1300 Diamond. There was a Terran player recently that was around 1800-2000 Diamond talking about how he wanted to be the highest ranked lowest APM player ever (I forget what his APM was exactly but it was definitely no more than 60).
I'd recommend not playing Zerg if being in Diamond is more important to you than playing Zerg. Zerg is by far the most APM intensive. I use to play Zerg exclusively, but since I've switched to Random I've realized that Terran and Toss take 1/2 the APM that Zerg does at the same skill level. I'd try out the other races. 4-Gate and 3-Rax are fairly simple builds that don't require very much APM to be effective into mid-diamond at least. I can attest that up until at least 1300 Diamond, 3-Rax 1-A win is exactly as simple as it sounds. I'm not kidding. Not even a little. I was actually somewhat disgusted once I realized how easy it really was to beat people with these strategies compared to my frantic 80 APM Zerg omg-what-is-he-throwing-at-me-now!
Oops! I'm guilty of not reading the whole thread or seeing your update:
On October 21 2010 04:41 Bumblebees wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2010 03:04 Azzur wrote:
I'm currently a Terran, 1500 Diamond in SEA server (1300 NA so far). When I was a couple hundred points lower, my APM averaged 40-50 a game. However, with practice, I've been able to push my APM further up 10-15 points, which I feel has actually made me a better player. However, bear in mind that this is my avg APM, mine can spike to 100+ during key points of the game.
But to the OP: yes, it's possible to hit the Diamond league with lowish APM. How I cope is to play timing based attacks and to predict what my opponent is doing. I'm the OP and I'm 1300 diamond now, and my APM has actually gone down. I'm averaging 25 or so now.
Congratz! I can't believe you've been able to reach 1300 Diamond with 25 APM. You've inspired me to find ways to use my APM more effectively as Zerg. Thanks!
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APM is overrated, and I fully support everybody that's been getting high rankings with low APM.
I used to be the same way, but for some reason my average APM (I play zerg, btw) has risen to 100 just due to playing the game a bunch. APM is really somewhat of a by-product of getting better at the game.
I still don't support spam clicking or think that you need high APM to be good, but I will say that in a big, 4 base macro game you'll definitely hit a wall if you can't handle the APM requirements (speaking 100% from experience, as I can recall past games where I thought to myself mid-match "holy crap, I just can't keep up with everything and do everything I want to do right now")
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Hey bumblebee. nice guide btw. Congrats on reaching 1300 diamond. I assure you, you can even go higher. I am a 1500 toss player with a relatively low apm around 50 for t and p and 60 for z. Even though this is considered extremely low at my level, I still find that i am executing way too many meaningless clicks and spams than what is necessary to accomplish what I want to do. All those extra clicks are just a byproduct of me subconciously wanting to raise my apm, but when the game gets deep, the spam (if you can evenc call it that) dissappears and all that really matters is effective apm, which I estimate to be 25. Even with 25 apm, I manage to take on 1600 level players who probably have around 130 apm. What this means is that even if my micro is not up to par, you can still be ahead in the game due to the games focus being economy and information management. It does not take insane apm to come up with abetter unit composition orstrategic positioning if you can effectively scout and prepare for an incoming attack. All it takes is a couple of box draggings and a few right clicks, not 5 actions per second. Anyways, mad respect for overcoming barriers through perseverance and dedication
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Im a 1400 diamond zerg player who has an average APM of 65. I think its awesome how I beat higher ranking players with better army composition, macro, positioning and overall gamesense alone. But now I see that when I play increasingly better opponents I suffer because of my low APM. When Im in late game I notice that my game is lacking in all sorts of ways. I start paying less attention to creep spread and I could have used those extra minerals for another expansion late game, I could have mirco'd that engagement better if I had just been fast enough etc.. These are problems than can be solved and worked upon but you need to have a decent APM to do it.
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EPT
