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[G] Fighting Muta/Ling as Toss - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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MoreFaSho
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1427 Posts
September 16 2010 23:21 GMT
#61
It's kind of sick when you think that archons do bonus damage to literally EVERY zerg unit and they're still almost never used. They're a little immobile so part of the mid-game strategy has to be denying creep because if zerg can add hydras when he gets ultras it will be some bad news.
I always try to shield slam face, just to make sure it doesnt work
wolf_rider
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia10 Posts
September 17 2010 15:03 GMT
#62
Great guide!

I just played a game where I lost to muta/ling because I stayed on the defensive too much and only built stalkers. When I attacked his base his zerglings plowed through me.

One question though. What if instead of pulling his mutas back to defend his base, he decides to try base trading with you?
beetlelisk
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Poland2276 Posts
October 10 2010 22:16 GMT
#63
Your guide is so good I am going to post it as an example of something I could not find, even though searching hard for half an hour? because it's not in the spotlight.
There should be a list of threads that were in the spotlight

I remembered it after one of Wolf Cup 11 games that are being casted right now...
wwww
bobcat
Profile Joined May 2010
United States488 Posts
October 13 2010 19:30 GMT
#64
On September 13 2010 06:20 kidijs wrote:
If you are attending a writing course, you should know that the fewer words, the better.

I've been writing articles online for about three years now, and I'll tell you this: very few people would read this article if it wasn't a thing that really interests them. Also, maybe make the paragraphs a bit shorter? Remember that good reading is hard writing (put the reader's gain above your writer's ego! you aren't writing a book here!).

As for the guide itself: good work. I really needed ideas on how to counter them flying bastards.

Also, any ideas on wat do in far positions? I think warp prism harass could work, because most PvZs are 3gate robo anyways.



Honestly I disagree. I would rather read a well written, well though out post that it comprehensive. I don't mind if it takes up more than a few paragraphs. I'm not in 3rd grade and I can handle that much reading. If other people are so lazy that they want to know how to play against muta ling but not enough to spend 4 minutes reading that is their problem. I see very few wasted words in the OP's post that could be removed without increasing the nebulousness of the guide.

If people don't have the patience to read then they deserve to learn. Pure and simple.
"I just want to see bobcat wrist deep in someone's mother's anus" 165 votes
bobcat
Profile Joined May 2010
United States488 Posts
October 13 2010 19:31 GMT
#65
On September 18 2010 00:03 wolf_rider wrote:
Great guide!

I just played a game where I lost to muta/ling because I stayed on the defensive too much and only built stalkers. When I attacked his base his zerglings plowed through me.

One question though. What if instead of pulling his mutas back to defend his base, he decides to try base trading with you?


Mutas cannon successfully base trade with a toss ground army. You will be able to take out their tech, their hatcheries, and their drones and still make it back to their base before then can kill your probes and all of your pylons.
"I just want to see bobcat wrist deep in someone's mother's anus" 165 votes
CuChullain
Profile Joined February 2010
Switzerland85 Posts
October 14 2010 16:09 GMT
#66
Here we go. Best guide about the Muta/ Ling thign i've read. I've read through the whole post and it works fine.
But there are still some problems for me.

Me, P Diamond 1176 vs. Z Diamond 1266:
[image loading]

As I scouted the early expansion i planned my timing push with +1 upgrade and did so: Fail.
that is the first problem: I can't get through spinecrawlers at all.

As i've seen him pumping more and more lings i knew he was going for Mutas.
So I hold on the pressure.

The Point is, that he even did not micro well and that is also disappointing.
I could easily lure his lings towards my lots, easily block them and kill them with stalker.
But as much as i set pressure on him, he could always hold me off and in the end build enough mutalisks to own me.

What are my faults? And plz think, that a better Zerg would not have let his zerglings run into my lots outside of his crawler reach.

Thx for feedback!
brutality
Profile Joined August 2010
United States167 Posts
October 14 2010 18:56 GMT
#67
People tend to forget that DT's can become archons as well ^^ if you're gas starved just make a 200 gas archon instead of 300. Storm is really important to have though
Komb
Profile Joined August 2010
United States3 Posts
October 15 2010 00:44 GMT
#68
this is such a good guide, maybe now i can finally win ZvP games
ahhahahah :D THANKS ZANEZ
Toss is the way to go
hEndO
Profile Joined June 2010
United States124 Posts
October 15 2010 00:52 GMT
#69
zerg player here. great post. really spot on. to anyone who reads this: this is what a post should look like!! Thanks for the contribution.
Thrasymachus725
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada527 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-15 03:34:50
October 15 2010 03:26 GMT
#70
Thanks all! Glad you enjoy my guide and find it useful


On October 15 2010 01:09 CuChullain wrote:
Here we go. Best guide about the Muta/ Ling thign i've read. I've read through the whole post and it works fine.
But there are still some problems for me.

Me, P Diamond 1176 vs. Z Diamond 1266:
[image loading]

As I scouted the early expansion i planned my timing push with +1 upgrade and did so: Fail.
that is the first problem: I can't get through spinecrawlers at all.

As i've seen him pumping more and more lings i knew he was going for Mutas.
So I hold on the pressure.

The Point is, that he even did not micro well and that is also disappointing.
I could easily lure his lings towards my lots, easily block them and kill them with stalker.
But as much as i set pressure on him, he could always hold me off and in the end build enough mutalisks to own me.

What are my faults? And plz think, that a better Zerg would not have let his zerglings run into my lots outside of his crawler reach.

Thx for feedback!



PM brought my attention back here.

I watched your replay, and really this is less of advice against Muta/Ling than just general ways to improve your play.
1st.
Your +1 attack push was quick, well timed and pretty decent. The problem was that he scouted your forge, saw that it was pushing for the early +1 attack and prepared the perfect defense... Spinecrawlers. You weren't going to break the Spinecrawlers with that build, sadly. As soon as you saw them, you should have backed away. Instead you just sent wave after wave of soliders at his solid defense, and lost them every time, giving him all the time he needed to build up to Mutas and a ton of lings with next to no threat.

Some advice here...

1. Build your forge further back or hidden somewhere where he can't or won't scout. That +1 attack relies on the element of surprise more than speed, and when he scouted that, it went out the window. If he didn't see it coming, and had no Spinecralwers, you would have been fine. Honestly even, you could honestly stand to have a later +1 attack even... maybe get a Cybernetics Core up first and go with a larger army, consisting of a few Stalkers to focus any Spines they may have.
2. Make sure you cut your losses when you lose. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUICIDING YOUR ARMY AND LAYING PRESSURE. You continued sending large waves of attacks at a defensive position that you were certainly not going to break. When you lose such a crushing defeat, it would honestly be best to sit back and build up. You had a large window of time between your first failure attack and the time that Mutalisks came out that you could have had a nice large army by the time they were there.
In order to lay pressure, you should be ducking in and out, just outside of spinecrawler range, taking a few hits to your shields here and there... you don't need to attack him, you just need to make him THINK you are going to attack him.
I posted this in my OP. This seems to be what you are having trouble with
Pretty much, what this means, is that Zerg are unstoppable when left to their own thing, and are very vulnerable to pressure. If you force them to keep building units by picking off troops, standing outside their base, and doing minor attacks, you slow them down immensely. This doesn't mean you ever attack them head on, but means you keep them THINKING you will attack them head on. This is not always easy...

3. Don't be afraid to stay in your base with your army. When the Mutalisks hit, you were warping your entire army all the way across the map. Yeah that didn't work too well.


A big key to fighting this build is to attack when the Mutalisks come out. Before the Mutalisks are out, they have a relatively strong defense of lings and Spinecrawlers, because most of their money has been going towards these units that are very strong on defense.
When Mutalisks come out, they will spend ALL their money on Mutalisks (which are very poor on defense). This is the time you want to attack. You attacked all-in before he even got Mutalisks. His weakness hadn't appeared yet.

Hope this helped. Any questions on things I didn't clear up? More than happy to help any way I can
The meaning of life is to fight.
CuChullain
Profile Joined February 2010
Switzerland85 Posts
October 15 2010 12:56 GMT
#71
Okay thank you very much. Some nice little details like the hidden forge and the point, that Z is strong in defending until he invest hardcore in Mutas are nice things to know. Perhaps add this to your guide :-)
Thank you very much for the help.
sikyon
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada1045 Posts
October 15 2010 13:47 GMT
#72
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/90865-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

Here's a replay of FE vs zerg where he goes muta/ling. You'll see just how behind I am going into the midgame against the double expo and no pressure but also how pheonixes in signifigant numbers (not just 1 or 2) will dominate mutas and force him to add corruptors.

He doesn't transition to hydras which was what I was afraid of, but I can tell you what I would have done if he did transition (as I was thinking about it)

1) Hydras mean no mutas. Stop pheonix production and take air superiority. Use air superiority to kill ovies and delay hydra production to buy time, as well as scout him thouroughly.

2) Add 2 gateways. If you notice I got charge against muta/ling - this was soley incase he got hydras. While hydras do beat zealots, they go down in small numbers without tanks.

3) Add sentries and more upgrades. Sentries against hydra you say? Heresy! Not so. Sentries are awesome because FF can really trap hydras if you use it well. When hydras get trapped against zealots they honestly are not really that effective.

4) tech to templar. duh.

But honestly the most important thing about this is that you need zealots, and you need +1 weapons over his armor. Always, always get +1 weapons or else it's going to cost you so much more in terms of minerals spent on zealots, supply spent on zealots, and warp gate cooldowns spent on zealots.
whomybuddy
Profile Joined August 2010
United States620 Posts
October 15 2010 14:54 GMT
#73
My mass mutas strategy doesn't work when toss do mass pheonixes strategy with his ramp lock. Then pheonixes chase down the overlords and kill queen plus workers.
..........I guess fast stargate with secure ramp lock is the way to go.
Roaches all the way way way.
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