EPT[G] Fighting Muta/Ling as Toss - Page 4
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
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wolf_rider
Australia10 Posts
I just played a game where I lost to muta/ling because I stayed on the defensive too much and only built stalkers. When I attacked his base his zerglings plowed through me. One question though. What if instead of pulling his mutas back to defend his base, he decides to try base trading with you? | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
There should be a list of threads that were in the spotlight  I remembered it after one of Wolf Cup 11 games that are being casted right now... | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On September 13 2010 06:20 kidijs wrote: If you are attending a writing course, you should know that the fewer words, the better. I've been writing articles online for about three years now, and I'll tell you this: very few people would read this article if it wasn't a thing that really interests them. Also, maybe make the paragraphs a bit shorter? Remember that good reading is hard writing (put the reader's gain above your writer's ego! you aren't writing a book here!). As for the guide itself: good work. I really needed ideas on how to counter them flying bastards. Also, any ideas on wat do in far positions? I think warp prism harass could work, because most PvZs are 3gate robo anyways. Honestly I disagree. I would rather read a well written, well though out post that it comprehensive. I don't mind if it takes up more than a few paragraphs. I'm not in 3rd grade and I can handle that much reading. If other people are so lazy that they want to know how to play against muta ling but not enough to spend 4 minutes reading that is their problem. I see very few wasted words in the OP's post that could be removed without increasing the nebulousness of the guide. If people don't have the patience to read then they deserve to learn. Pure and simple. | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
On September 18 2010 00:03 wolf_rider wrote: Great guide! I just played a game where I lost to muta/ling because I stayed on the defensive too much and only built stalkers. When I attacked his base his zerglings plowed through me. One question though. What if instead of pulling his mutas back to defend his base, he decides to try base trading with you? Mutas cannon successfully base trade with a toss ground army. You will be able to take out their tech, their hatcheries, and their drones and still make it back to their base before then can kill your probes and all of your pylons. | ||
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CuChullain
Switzerland85 Posts
But there are still some problems for me. Me, P Diamond 1176 vs. Z Diamond 1266: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157578.jpg) As I scouted the early expansion i planned my timing push with +1 upgrade and did so: Fail. that is the first problem: I can't get through spinecrawlers at all. As i've seen him pumping more and more lings i knew he was going for Mutas. So I hold on the pressure. The Point is, that he even did not micro well and that is also disappointing. I could easily lure his lings towards my lots, easily block them and kill them with stalker. But as much as i set pressure on him, he could always hold me off and in the end build enough mutalisks to own me. What are my faults? And plz think, that a better Zerg would not have let his zerglings run into my lots outside of his crawler reach. Thx for feedback! | ||
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brutality
United States167 Posts
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Komb
United States3 Posts
ahhahahah :D THANKS ZANEZ | ||
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hEndO
United States124 Posts
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
On October 15 2010 01:09 CuChullain wrote: Here we go. Best guide about the Muta/ Ling thign i've read. I've read through the whole post and it works fine. But there are still some problems for me. Me, P Diamond 1176 vs. Z Diamond 1266: As I scouted the early expansion i planned my timing push with +1 upgrade and did so: Fail. that is the first problem: I can't get through spinecrawlers at all. As i've seen him pumping more and more lings i knew he was going for Mutas. So I hold on the pressure. The Point is, that he even did not micro well and that is also disappointing. I could easily lure his lings towards my lots, easily block them and kill them with stalker. But as much as i set pressure on him, he could always hold me off and in the end build enough mutalisks to own me. What are my faults? And plz think, that a better Zerg would not have let his zerglings run into my lots outside of his crawler reach. Thx for feedback! PM brought my attention back here. I watched your replay, and really this is less of advice against Muta/Ling than just general ways to improve your play. 1st. Your +1 attack push was quick, well timed and pretty decent. The problem was that he scouted your forge, saw that it was pushing for the early +1 attack and prepared the perfect defense... Spinecrawlers. You weren't going to break the Spinecrawlers with that build, sadly. As soon as you saw them, you should have backed away. Instead you just sent wave after wave of soliders at his solid defense, and lost them every time, giving him all the time he needed to build up to Mutas and a ton of lings with next to no threat. Some advice here... 1. Build your forge further back or hidden somewhere where he can't or won't scout. That +1 attack relies on the element of surprise more than speed, and when he scouted that, it went out the window. If he didn't see it coming, and had no Spinecralwers, you would have been fine. Honestly even, you could honestly stand to have a later +1 attack even... maybe get a Cybernetics Core up first and go with a larger army, consisting of a few Stalkers to focus any Spines they may have. 2. Make sure you cut your losses when you lose. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUICIDING YOUR ARMY AND LAYING PRESSURE. You continued sending large waves of attacks at a defensive position that you were certainly not going to break. When you lose such a crushing defeat, it would honestly be best to sit back and build up. You had a large window of time between your first failure attack and the time that Mutalisks came out that you could have had a nice large army by the time they were there. In order to lay pressure, you should be ducking in and out, just outside of spinecrawler range, taking a few hits to your shields here and there... you don't need to attack him, you just need to make him THINK you are going to attack him. I posted this in my OP. This seems to be what you are having trouble with Pretty much, what this means, is that Zerg are unstoppable when left to their own thing, and are very vulnerable to pressure. If you force them to keep building units by picking off troops, standing outside their base, and doing minor attacks, you slow them down immensely. This doesn't mean you ever attack them head on, but means you keep them THINKING you will attack them head on. This is not always easy... 3. Don't be afraid to stay in your base with your army. When the Mutalisks hit, you were warping your entire army all the way across the map. Yeah that didn't work too well. A big key to fighting this build is to attack when the Mutalisks come out. Before the Mutalisks are out, they have a relatively strong defense of lings and Spinecrawlers, because most of their money has been going towards these units that are very strong on defense. When Mutalisks come out, they will spend ALL their money on Mutalisks (which are very poor on defense). This is the time you want to attack. You attacked all-in before he even got Mutalisks. His weakness hadn't appeared yet. Hope this helped. Any questions on things I didn't clear up? More than happy to help any way I can  | ||
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CuChullain
Switzerland85 Posts
Thank you very much for the help. | ||
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sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
Here's a replay of FE vs zerg where he goes muta/ling. You'll see just how behind I am going into the midgame against the double expo and no pressure but also how pheonixes in signifigant numbers (not just 1 or 2) will dominate mutas and force him to add corruptors. He doesn't transition to hydras which was what I was afraid of, but I can tell you what I would have done if he did transition (as I was thinking about it) 1) Hydras mean no mutas. Stop pheonix production and take air superiority. Use air superiority to kill ovies and delay hydra production to buy time, as well as scout him thouroughly. 2) Add 2 gateways. If you notice I got charge against muta/ling - this was soley incase he got hydras. While hydras do beat zealots, they go down in small numbers without tanks. 3) Add sentries and more upgrades. Sentries against hydra you say? Heresy! Not so. Sentries are awesome because FF can really trap hydras if you use it well. When hydras get trapped against zealots they honestly are not really that effective. 4) tech to templar. duh. But honestly the most important thing about this is that you need zealots, and you need +1 weapons over his armor. Always, always get +1 weapons or else it's going to cost you so much more in terms of minerals spent on zealots, supply spent on zealots, and warp gate cooldowns spent on zealots. | ||
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whomybuddy
United States620 Posts
..........I guess fast stargate with secure ramp lock is the way to go. | ||
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