EPTOtherwise yes, if there is passable terrain (not filled with zerglings) its a good idea to blink to chase rather than the initial engagement.
[G] Fighting Muta/Ling as Toss - Page 2
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blitzkrieger
United States512 Posts
Otherwise yes, if there is passable terrain (not filled with zerglings) its a good idea to blink to chase rather than the initial engagement. | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
On September 11 2010 02:26 Skyro wrote: ?? Phoenixes do wreck mutas. It's phoenix micro that is over muta micro, not the other way around. And forge FE is commonly seen among high lv players/tournaments and completely viable in most situations. It is folly to let generalizations dictate your entire play strategy before the game even starts. However if the zerg player retreats and attack alternatively, you are almost guaranteed to get hit, pheonix range can only get you so far with non-progamming amounts of micro/skills. The main strength in pheonixes, is that if you ever have the stronger air force, you can wipe out his mutalisks, taking minimal losses. It kind of pins the zerg player slightly. However, while the pheonixes are coming out, a good zerg player will bring on the pain on your mineral line. Important things, are keeping track of if the zerg is committing to air or not, and making a timely transition to immortal collolus play compositions. | ||
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
On September 11 2010 13:26 blitzkrieger wrote: This is good except for the tidbit about not blinking to engage mutalisks. Often times, for instance, if a mutalisk army is harassing near impassable terrain (aka no land) at the edge of your base most likely, as soon as he sees your stalkers coming he will run. You can gain many shots by blinking in over trying to waddle over (about 3 volleys versus 0-0.5). Otherwise yes, if there is passable terrain (not filled with zerglings) its a good idea to blink to chase rather than the initial engagement. Oh of course if there is difficult to traverse terrain... like if you are stuck in your simcity, or if your Stalkers are on top of a cliff, then yeah you want to use Blink to cover that distance. I didn't mention that in the guide because it just seems like common sense... There are certain maps, such as Lost Temple, Metalopolis, Xel'Naga Caverns.... well most maps really, that can really backfire if you waste your Blink trying to get in range of the Mutalisks, only to get caught on the wrong side of a cliff. | ||
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blitzkrieger
United States512 Posts
On September 11 2010 13:39 Zanez.smarty wrote: Oh of course if there is difficult to traverse terrain... like if you are stuck in your simcity, or if your Stalkers are on top of a cliff, then yeah you want to use Blink to cover that distance. I didn't mention that in the guide because it just seems like common sense... There are certain maps, such as Lost Temple, Metalopolis, Xel'Naga Caverns.... well most maps really, that can really backfire if you waste your Blink trying to get in range of the Mutalisks, only to get caught on the wrong side of a cliff. I mean over impassible terrain like water or a void/hole. A) You move His mutas run Do nothing, possible loss of probes/etc B) You blink and get several volleys off His mutas run Some damage/possible kills on his mutas | ||
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
On September 11 2010 13:35 Chronopolis wrote: However if the zerg player retreats and attack alternatively, you are almost guaranteed to get hit, pheonix range can only get you so far with non-progamming amounts of micro/skills. The main strength in pheonixes, is that if you ever have the stronger air force, you can wipe out his mutalisks, taking minimal losses. It kind of pins the zerg player slightly. However, while the pheonixes are coming out, a good zerg player will bring on the pain on your mineral line. Important things, are keeping track of if the zerg is committing to air or not, and making a timely transition to immortal collolus play compositions. Alternating retreats and attacks with Mutalisks will certainly allow Mutalisks to do a little damage to the Phoenix, but the attack of the Phoenix is faster and stronger. Shields will do just fine at taking the damage. There are virtually no situations in which Mutalisks will win against Phoenix cost for cost (assuming the Protoss has a brain). | ||
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
On September 11 2010 13:43 blitzkrieger wrote: I mean over impassible terrain like water or a void/hole. A) You move His mutas run Do nothing, possible loss of probes/etc B) You blink and get several volleys off His mutas run Some damage/possible kills on his mutas It is a matter of judgment... You need to decide to yourself whether it is a good idea to blink or not. A good rule of thumb is that IF YOU CAN HELP IT, don't engage with Blink. Of course if there is no risk of doing so, you need to pass over impassible terrain or you are at risk of taking a LOT of damage in the mean time, then yeah, use Blink. But in most cases, you want to walk up to him then Blink when he runs. In that way you are more likely to be able to catch up and get more shots off as he runs away. Blinking just in range, only to have him run away will net fewer shots... unless the Zerg is being ridiculously overly cautious. | ||
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blitzkrieger
United States512 Posts
On September 11 2010 13:50 Zanez.smarty wrote: It is a matter of judgment... You need to decide to yourself whether it is a good idea to blink or not. A good rule of thumb is that IF YOU CAN HELP IT, don't engage with Blink. Of course if there is no risk of doing so, you need to pass over impassible terrain or you are at risk of taking a LOT of damage in the mean time, then yeah, use Blink. But in most cases, you want to walk up to him then Blink when he runs. In that way you are more likely to be able to catch up and get more shots off as he runs away. Blinking just in range, only to have him run away will net fewer shots... unless the Zerg is being ridiculously overly cautious. thats wut i said bro -_- | ||
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
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Parodoxx
United States549 Posts
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Moqo
Australia4 Posts
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groms
Canada1017 Posts
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
Although perhaps with some shield armor against Z archons could be a force versus ling/muta. The splash spreads between both air and ground which is nice, if you can position it just right (or if the Zerg player positions that poorly with air right over ground units). | ||
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
On September 11 2010 15:13 Ndugu wrote: There's an Idra game that really shows why sometimes you will need Phoenixes, not Archons. =/ A Korean showmatch where the Toss player seemed to be doing well with archon/HT versus ling muta, until the effects of immobility while Idra macroed started to show themselves. Although perhaps with some shield armor against Z archons could be a force versus ling/muta. The splash spreads between both air and ground which is nice, if you can position it just right (or if the Zerg player positions that poorly with air right over ground units). Phoenixes work much better on the defense than they do on the offense. Spore Crawlers and Queens as well as quick reinforcements and Overlord interference kinda tilt it in that direction. This is why Phoenix are the best option when you FE vs Ling/Muta. They operate best with lots of free airspace to do their micro. Archons however, work much better on the offense than they do on the defense. Mutalisks that are forced to engage an Archon in order to keep their base alive are not happy Mutalisks. But Archons are so slow and fat that they are completely unable to chase them down. So really it depends on the situation you are in. There are certainly times where either or is a good option, but if you can get both, then you are in very good shape... just vulnerable to a sudden Hydra Tech Switch... But that's what Psistom is for... | ||
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blitzkrieger
United States512 Posts
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boneyz
20 Posts
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/36688 I think it demonstrates a lot of things discussed in this thread. HTs, archons, being aggressive and ignoring the harassing, how to use blinks correctly, etc, and even DTs make an appearence towards the end. It is also a very entertaining replay. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
If you don't like playing against muta/ling, you can always pre-empt it with a stargate build. Stalker/sentry with a few zealots does well against muta/ling on short rush distances where you can easily attack their natural. The reason is you can more easily force an engagement on your terms as you're walking to their natural where you can effectively FF their lings, which is a huge component of the muta/ling strategy. Zealot/stalker does well against muta/ling in general, but becomes MUCH less effective once banelings enter the picture. Personally, I go pure ling/baneling while mass expanding just until I hold off that first Protoss gateway attack, then I switch to mutas to secure my win. The only things that are really scary for muta/ling to fight if it gets to the lategame are mass phoenixes, high templar/archon (storm absolutely RAPES muta/ling - contrary to the OP, you want to be storming primarily the lings so your stalkers/sentries/archons can focus down the mutas easily while softening them up a bit with maybe 1-2 storms) with stalker support, and motherships or carriers (yes, that shit is extremely scary lategame, but only if you can secure an easily defendable third base without wasting too much on static defense - blink stalkers and high templar help a lot with defense). | ||
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
On September 11 2010 15:25 blitzkrieger wrote: Does anyone know the exact mechanics of phoenix attacking? It seems when i send them to attack the continually approach mutalalisks and thet get shot... unlike any other air unit. It's pretty stupid and am wondering how you micro phoenix. If its already been posted sorry. Phoenix attack while moving, and thus they do not need to be targeted on anything specific. Attack move will engage the first unit like anything else (I think), but you can also use a simple "move" command that will fly straight through them and will fire at whatever units it can reach. You cannot stop a Phoenix from firing... not that you would ever want to. Some tips on Microing Phoenix: -ONLY right click. Focus Firing takes valuable APM that is needed to keep the very precise Phoenix positioning perfect. So unless you have HUGE apm, you should avoid it. There are very very few situations (once in a while they come up) that you will ever NEED to focus fire. -Phoenix always fire at the unit that is closest to them. Right clicking through a swarm of Mutalisks or Overlords will cause them to disperse their fire relatively evenly... Because of this, it is best to keep your Phoenixes on the outskirts of the cloud of units you are trying to attack, and tightly clumped up (if your Phoenixes are stacked, they auto focus fire). -Phoenixes have a range of 4. Mutalisks have a range of 3. Because of this there is a sweet spot that the Phoenix can shoot in and the Mutalisk cannot. When engaging Mutalisks, you want to attempt to stay in that very small area. Right click a LOT and try and gauge the distance well. It is tricky, but it comes with practice. Theoretically, in a vacuum, a single Phoenix will be able to kill unlimited Mutalisks without ever taking a single hit... assuming 100% perfect micro... -Phoenix are the fastest air unit in the game. They also do not need to slow down to shoot. Because of this, no units can run away from a group of Phoenix. If they try to run, chase and fly alongside them until either they get reinforcements or they die. | ||
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hoganftw
United States32 Posts
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SoJu.WeRRa
Korea (South)820 Posts
thanks for sharing! | ||
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RoarMan
Canada745 Posts
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